Rhizome Deserves your support.

> "What is WRONG with you fucking people?"

I can only speak for myself. A while back I noticed that the community
wasn't looking at art in a really focused way- it still doesn't talk about
actual artworks, it announces artworks and it talks about art politics. But
I decided back then to start interviews with artists that people could look
at and talk about and whose interviews would make an interesting addition to
the body that makes up the rhizome text archive. No one else was really
doing interviews since Josephine Bosma left, and I decided to take up the
mantle by conducting interviews that were low on high-end theory and talked
about their work on a practical, hopefully interesting and accessible level.
I conducted interviews with Ben Benjamin, John Klima, Chris Fahey, Chris
Basset, Margaret Penny, and Michael Daines. (I've since done interviews for
Turbulence with Cory Arcangel, Michael Mandiberg, and Kalx.com).

It was really ironic gesture to ask me to pay money in order to continue
doing interviews with people for rhizome's front page. I brought this up
when we were asked "What do you guys think of the five dollars" and never
got an answer- I never once received any acknowledgement from anyone at
Rhizome for what I've done- except from someone (not within rhizome) who
said that it was "exposure". Well, what's "exposure" exactly? My feeling is
that rhizome didn't think what I was doing was that interesting or
important- that it wasn't worth their five dollars. So, I stopped, and I
feel annoyed for having done it (for rhizome) in the first place. I don't
know what Rhizomes goals are, I don't even know what Rhizome is, if it
requires that people pay in order to generate content for them. That
position strikes me as arrogant.

I support rhizome and I am enthusiastic about assisting when I am asked, but
I get essentially nothing in return for my five dollars, except the
opportunity to spend an afternoon at home coming up with questions and
editing texts for you people to read and ignore or quote in your graduate
thesis. I like doing interviews, but it is work, and it takes time, and I am
paying someone else for the "opportunity" to do it *for them*. Would you do
it? Try it, and tell me if you don't feel like a sucker after a while. I
just feel that as long as I feel like a sucker for paying the five dollars,
Rhizome isn't giving me very many good reasons to pay it. If that makes me
an "asshole" then I'm an asshole.

-e.




—– Original Message —–
From: "Patrick Lichty" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 11:30 AM
Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: RHizome Deserves your support.


> I'll put my two cents in on the whole funding matter.
> First of all, I understand that most of the Rhizome community is a good
lot
> who are really concerned with banding together under a genre/movement that
> gets amazingly little support/respect from the mainstream art community,
and
> this is not intended for you.
>
> I get pretty sick and tired of hearing the hue and cry every time Rhizome
> asks for help from its membership, and I get really fucking irate when no
> one gives their trust fund to The Thing. Here's why.
>
> I think that Rhizome has been amazingly open with its books to the
> membership, and to pillory them every time that there is a need for
funding
> is ridiculous. Of course, there were some boondoggles, like the timing of
> the Ross/Ono fundraiser last year (which had been planned far in advance),
> and there were some questions of Tribe's salary and its proportionality to
> his field. However, I only have pretty solid hearsay on that last part,
but
> only that.
>
> To me, any organization has its logistical and PR problems. Fair enough.
> We can have our disagreements on the human aspects of any org.
>
> What matters to me is the spirit of an organization and the impetus behind
> it.
>
> Rhizome was created as a more or less grass roots org for the promotion of
> new media art. We can argue about who's what's and wherefores regarding
the
> personalities, the controversies of the Artbase agreement, whether Mark
may
> or may not have used his trust fund to start it (if he did, I actually
> respect that a bit more than someone who just bought a Boxster with it.).
>
> To me, all this is utter and complete bullshit. Please excuse me for
being
> blunt.
> Somehow, some way, my impression is that there is a vocal contingent on
the
> various lists that believes that Rhizome should be an organization that
> promotes/caters to artists on a very individualized and very personal
level,
> provide funding and services on likewise basis, and do so without any
> responsibility from the membership, as somehow resources for servers,
> payroll, and rent are somehow supposed to come from the supposed fat cats
> that are somehow obliged to fund the art world because we are entitled to
> it.
>
> This is a tremendous soap-bubble mentality from a minority of vocal
artists
> with a lot of ego and bitterness who need a little spoonful of reality.
> Again, sorry for being blunt, but having seen the other side of the
equation
> now, the funding situation for the arts is abysmal, I mean really bad.
You
> have to do a tremendous amount of work for each grant for each foundation,
> than if you get it, you face incredible accountability measures from the
> foundations. And in the current climate, funding is being slashed right
and
> left, and if Bush and the NeoCons would have their way, the scion of the
> Albert Speer school of NeoCapitoFederalist Realsim would be Thomas
Kinkaide,
> because he _sells_ art.
>
> Where's the money going to come from? Are we supposed to go work at
> Starbucks and fund others from the tip jar? I actually have done this,
and
> have had an average annual income of under $15,000/year since 1985. Not
> 1995, _1985_.
>
> This is not going to be an exercise in showing you my stigmata, for I'm no
> saint. But I do serve the art community pretty tirelessly, and I get
pretty
> damned tired of people who sit around and pose, then bitch about how bad
> things are with nary a callous on their hands from lifting a finger to
help.
> I'll still help everyone, but this sort fo self-centered mentality (which,
> imagine that- artists being self-centered! Who would have thought?)
> sometimes gets on my last nerve.
>
> My point is to ask is, to paraphrase the Texas Chainsaw Masscre, "What is
> WRONG with you fucking people?"
>
> Getting in arrears about five bucks is really comical. The ACLU is
calling
> me twice a month looking for $75. I get at least three pieces of junk
mail
> asking for money for Father Spunky's Home for Wayward Pueblo Kids or
whatnot
> looking for a minimum of $25, being that I'm somehow now on the 'liberal'
> mailing list. The point is that Rhizome and Thing (as well as some
others)
> are pretty modest in asking for your support. And they're doing something
> worthy of your support.
>
> So just chill out a little, willya?
> I'll try to do the same, but having Rachel have to justify why she needs
to
> ask for $5 to each and every one of us on an almost individual level takes
> away from the time she needs to be doing things, and is just pretty banal.
>
> Sorry to get on my high horse, but for those of you who know me, there are
> times in which I just have to get it off my chest.
>
> THanks for listening.
> Patrick
>
>
>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

Eryk – I have never heard this before. I don't remember you're
bringing this up – that you had done editorial work that hadn't been
recognized. Sorry if I missed it. We should discuss OTP or some such
but I can pay you for your interviews going forward if you still want
to conduct them. – Rachel

I don't even know what Rhizome is, if it
> requires that people pay in order to generate content for them. That
> position strikes me as arrogant.
>
> I support rhizome and I am enthusiastic about assisting when I am asked,
but
> I get essentially nothing in return for my five dollars…I am
> paying someone else for the "opportunity" to do it *for them*. Would you
do
> it? Try it, and tell me if you don't feel like a sucker after a while.

If RHizome were an FPO organization, I would support your position. But it
isn't. Like Intelligent Agent, which does try to pay everyone when we have
funding, often gets a little 'thin'.

I'm going to tone it down a little and try to work out some conflations. I
think that payment and content generation are not necessarily linked. Again
if Rhizome were into profit, I'd be livid. However, it isn't.

If you were under a payment agreement and didn't get it, then you have a
legit grievance.

However, I have a big problem with the feeling that people are intitled to a
'quid pro quo' of sorts. I helped create content for Rhizome for probably
five years without paying a dime and I did it GLADLY. I provided content
for COmpuserve's computer Graphics form for a similar amount of time, and I
did it GLADLY. The Walker's Art Entertainment Network paid me $50 for
showing Grasping at Bits, and I was just happy to be able to contribute. I
work for a disabilities foundation which I contribute $500/yr, write for
their magazine, and I get nothing in return.

Am I a sucker? No way. I have been doing this sort of advocacy work for
over a decade and am proud to do it. If I had a bill for my pro bono work
for the art community, I'd wager that I'd be over $100,000. It's more than
worth it. However, when there is a possibility to help with my personal
support, then I can then hope that there are those with my best interests in
mind who will share the largesse I have shared with them.

What about paying $75-125/year for College Art Association and Popular
Culture Association, and what do you get, as you have to pay another $50-100
for the conference? You don't get paid for publishing in the magazine, you
do get a good journal though, but the point is that there is something to
wanting to support something that you believe in.

I believe that I certainly get something back for my 5 bucks. I am assured
that a net art community within which i have many friends gets to continue
(worth a lot more than a five-spot), the possibility for other artists to be
assisted is continued, and a community continues for net art.

Do I think you're an asshole? Absolutely not. Maybe a little myopic, but
not an asshole.

By the way, Eryk - how much did you get paid for your Turbulence curatorial
project? I bet it's the same as mine, and does that make you a sucker? I
personally don't think so.

I'm just tired for people always asking 'what's in it for me?'

Sometimes there just isn't anything in it for you except your wanting to
support a project.

I think Patrick makes lots of good points.

Rhizome is worth every penny of 5 the bucks (or 10x that amount IMO).

Donate now!

On Nov 13, 2003, at 5:31 PM, Patrick Lichty wrote:

> I don't even know what Rhizome is, if it
>> requires that people pay in order to generate content for them. That
>> position strikes me as arrogant.
>>
>> I support rhizome and I am enthusiastic about assisting when I am
>> asked,
> but
>> I get essentially nothing in return for my five dollars…I am
>> paying someone else for the "opportunity" to do it *for them*. Would
>> you
> do
>> it? Try it, and tell me if you don't feel like a sucker after a while.
>
> If RHizome were an FPO organization, I would support your position.
> But it
> isn't. Like Intelligent Agent, which does try to pay everyone when we
> have
> funding, often gets a little 'thin'.
>
–
<t.whid>
www.mteww.com
</t.whid>

Patrick,

> If RHizome were an FPO organization, I would support your position. But
it
> isn't. Like Intelligent Agent, which does try to pay everyone when we
have
> funding, often gets a little 'thin'.

But you try to pay people; and you don't charge them for submitting to it,
do you? I've refused to participate in any exhibition or show where you had
to pay to be accepted. I think it's offensive to the role of artist and it
is offensive to the work I do. I would do shows for free, that's different.
But I am not even really talking about money.


> I'm going to tone it down a little and try to work out some conflations.
I
> think that payment and content generation are not necessarily linked.
Again
> if Rhizome were into profit, I'd be livid. However, it isn't.

It seems like people cannot seperate my argument from money. I'm not even
talking about payment, I am talking about someone at Rhizome saying "nice
job" once in a while. The closest that has ever happened so far was when
Mark Tribe asked me not to post to the list using my @rhizome.org address
because I might say something offensive.


> If you were under a payment agreement and didn't get it, then you have a
> legit grievance.

I'm not. I'm in a community, and in a community you give and the community
gives back. Let me reiterate that I am not talking about money. If the
community doesn't give back and you keep giving, then yes, you (and I) are
suckers.


> However, I have a big problem with the feeling that people are intitled to
a
> 'quid pro quo' of sorts. I helped create content for Rhizome for probably
> five years without paying a dime and I did it GLADLY.

Your Freudian typo hit the nail on the head. :) I did it for probably just
as long without paying a dime. When it came time for me to pay rhizome to
keep doing it, the "gladly" part went out of the equation. Frankly, I think
it's a bit trite to say that it's all about the money, or that people who
don't want to pay the five dollars are assholes. Institutions are not built
so we can serve them, they are built to serve us. Any non profit
organization that essentially asks people to serve it for no reward is not
really _worth_ staying in buisiness. I like rhizome, I am here, but I feel
like this is something that no one has been hearing or getting, and it's
important. It's not about the fucking five dollars, which is a really
annoying straw man. It's about the nuts and bolts and the whole way this org
goes about its buisiness. It is accountable to its community; and I,
speaking for myself only, don't feel any particular warmth. I should really
emphasize that I am speaking of myself personally. Maybe it hasn't occured
with anyone else, maybe I am a special case since I am not socially reliable
or stable. I know some people are put off by the fact that I can praise
someone one week and criticise them the next, and that may have carried over
to my relationship with rhizome. Or maybe they just never noticed. Maybe
it's because of radiation in the atmosphere or any other number of reasons;
but I don't feel like I've been convinced.


> I work for a disabilities foundation which I contribute $500/yr, write for
> their magazine, and I get nothing in return.

I work for the Dean campaign and get "nothing" in return- financially. I
make net.art, mostly, for "nothing". But I feel good doing it. I get
encouraged to do it and I feel like I am doing something important. Rhizome
had managed to, essentially, convince me that the volunteer work I had done
for them was unimportant and irrelevant- and personally, I feel like Mark
Tribe sent me the signal that it was even embarrassing. I am familiar with
the purpose of non profit and volunteer work- they don't survive if they
don't make it worth something. Maybe this will change. It may not be an
issue for the rest of rhizomers, but it was an issue for me.


> I believe that I certainly get something back for my 5 bucks. I am
assured
> that a net art community within which i have many friends gets to continue
> (worth a lot more than a five-spot), the possibility for other artists to
be
> assisted is continued, and a community continues for net art.

But how are other artists assisted if you aren't?


> By the way, Eryk - how much did you get paid for your Turbulence
curatorial
> project? I bet it's the same as mine, and does that make you a sucker? I
> personally don't think so.

I wasn't paid for the curational project per se, but I recieved a grant from
them for "American Internet" and felt the curational part would be nice to
do, because they help artists financially, including myself, and because
they made me feel like what I did mattered to them. I got a phone call from
Helen Thorington, I got an email saying thanks for doing it. Rhizome relies
a lot on "exposure" as its draw, but I don't know what that means. I feel
like Rhizome has acted like it was doing me a favor by letting me write for
them. Then it went ahead and asked me to give them money, too.



> I'm just tired for people always asking 'what's in it for me?'

I think the opposite extreme of that is detrimental to peoples well being as
well. I don't know, remember when Jon Ippolitto came out with an essay about
how net.artists should look to keeping thier day jobs as a source of
funding? Remember how all the net.artists went on a hell-bender? I feel like
you're basically advocating the same point. Maybe you agreed with Jon, (I
did, for the most part) but I know a lot of people did not. But in this
context, it's not even the financial issue, it's been a constant stream of
what I feel is disrespect and shrugging off by people in charge. I just
assumed I wasn't the only one, maybe I was and it was all a big
misunderstanding. Maybe Rhizome will consider its human element a little
more seriously now that it's in a different position. Maybe it doesn't need
to, and this is all just a personal issue.

-e.

Hi Eyrk,

Not to be a jerk, but it IS a personal thing. It's not fair to take
whatever personal problems you've had with Rhizome (and to be fair, if
what you say is accurate, it sounds like you weren't treated very
graciously) and assume that everyone has had the same experience.

I've had the completely opposite experience. Rhizome was one of the
first orgs (along with Creative Time) to support MTAA activities and
I've made personal friendships with almost everyone that has worked
there (Mark, Alex, Rachel).

Rhizome has given lots back to me. Including the chance to discuss
issues (sometimes heatedly) with you :-)


On Nov 14, 2003, at 2:49 AM, Eryk Salvaggio wrote:
> It's not about the fucking five dollars, which is a really
> annoying straw man. It's about the nuts and bolts and the whole way
> this org
> goes about its buisiness. It is accountable to its community; and I,
> speaking for myself only, don't feel any particular warmth. I should
> really
> emphasize that I am speaking of myself personally. Maybe it hasn't
> occured
> with anyone else, maybe I am a special case since I am not socially
> reliable
> or stable. I know some people are put off by the fact that I can praise
> someone one week and criticise them the next, and that may have
> carried over
> to my relationship with rhizome. Or maybe they just never noticed.
> Maybe
> it's because of radiation in the atmosphere or any other number of
> reasons;
> but I don't feel like I've been convinced.


===
<twhid>
http://www.mteww.com
</twhid>

—– Original Message —–
From: "t.whid" <[email protected]>


> Not to be a jerk, but it IS a personal thing. It's not fair to take
> whatever personal problems you've had with Rhizome (and to be fair, if
> what you say is accurate, it sounds like you weren't treated very
> graciously) and assume that everyone has had the same experience.

I said as much.

-e.