Thanks for the account of your visit to our fine city. It's nice to see it through eyes that don't take it all for granted.
On Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 07:58 PM, jess wrote:
> > > I love New York. A cliche but true.
one of the best ways to see New York IMO is from a cab as you go home late and a little drunk. I like going from the west side to my place in bklyn. you go through all the different neighborhoods, see all the different people in the different neighborhoods, then hit the Williamsburg Bridge. The Billyburg bridge is being spliced together with a suburban freeway overpass somehow. It's industrial age New York meets the I-95 overpass. it's a strange combination. It was about to fall down so the city had to fix it.
I love coming over the bridges into Manhattan as well; from car, bike, or foot it's grand.
> > Coming home the next day (with a stomach full of the best pesto in > NY
—– Original Message —– From: "jess" <[email protected]> At the risk of pissing off > my new found acquaintances, the presentation (in spite of Scott Pattersons > unpretentious and easy-going delivery) was the least interesting > thing about the meeting. I was really pretty shocked to hear the > resplendent pleasures of the gallery setting being promoted as so > totally more engaging than the virtual (both aesthetically and tactically). > It wasn't something I had expected in such a group of net 'converts'.
sgp: Well, not sure if this is what you mean, but, it's tough to compete with that lovely empty taxi garage with a dinky little portable screen. I've only seen one project ever do it, they projected onto the floor, and to achieve it, all the lights were turned off and the skylights covered so you couldn't see the place!!
> The PDPal project simply left me wondering what I had missed. We > were told repeatedly by one of the curators of the social aspect > of the project (which allows users to 'map' their feelings/place/space/etc > through the PDA) but then shown how these personal, intriguing and > distinct pieces of information were translated into cryptic Japanese > based iconography (which make up the individual 'maps') thus rendering > any social mapping unreadable to anyone bar the few that had the > inner knowledge to unlock the symbols. It amused me that in mapping > the social and personal they had encrypted it so perfectly that the > piece became simply another encoded visual arrangement turning individuality > and textual emotion back into just another work about the machine.
sgp: I think some clarification is needed here. The 'cryptic Japanese based iconography' is from the first version of PDPal we made during our residency. What we found, similar to what you observed, is that user's expectations of receiving a "map" were not met and the visual language we developed did not engender the personal we had intended. This was also Christiane's comment. The reason we spent time showing our current wireframes was to show how these lessons had been learned and folded into the project so that users now input information on geographic maps and are able to modify the visual language to their liking/expression. Maybe we weren't clear enough about this or it still doesn't satisfy your comments.
> What amused me even more is how the creators went on to expound > the joys and vital ness of translocality in new media and PDA's.. > .before dropping in that they had to limit the project to simply > 'mapping' Manhattan as they were running out of time before the exhibition.
sgp: Hmm, I think we were saying that we are currently limiting the mapping input to the 5 boroughs(Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island and Manhattan) for our installation this September. This is simply an issue of production time. The way we are building the project it will be easy to add maps in the future. Frankly, if you know someone at mapquest or a similar digital map company that would be willing to donate maps, please send them our way. So please be amused in sharing our mutual grief about deadlines and they're impact on idealism!!
> Although I might be alone in my gripe about social relevance (although > one questioner asked 'just how is it social relevant?' and was met > with stony silence) the ripple of sniggering when informed about > the 'Manhattan translocal' makes me think that I wasn't the only > one to have been left unsatisfied.
sgp: Social relevance? What's that? Ha ha. just kidding. I think our stony silence was more confusion about the question than lack of an answer. We had just spent much of the presentation discussing the social aspects of the project. How people can see other user's maps, etc. Ah, now it just occurs to me, that Diane may have been using socially relevant in a different way. We had just been talking about the communal aspects, but I might hazard that she was trying to tease out - and I have to say her question was not well-formed and faded out at its end - some ideas about the relationship between tech/society/space? To this question I think the project is directed. We are very interested in PDPal transforming the way people understand their urban experiences, both private, public and social and in that revelation becoming keenly aware of its shaping forces. Do you recall our example of the anecdote about a guy imagining garbage trucks as dinosaurs? It's a device for coping with urban infrastructures. We are already in talks with a few groups about using PDPal with kids and school groups to understand their neighborhood. So, I'm sorry if this wasn't clear and if I am still not clear above please feel free to keep the questions flowing. Best regards, [sgp] ________________________ scott paterson (sweater wearer)
> > sgp: I think some clarification is needed here. The 'cryptic Japanese based > iconography' is from the first version of PDPal we made during our > residency. What we found, similar to what you observed, is that user's > expectations of receiving a "map" were not met and the visual language we > developed did not engender the personal we had intended. This was also > Christiane's comment. The reason we spent time showing our current > wireframes was to show how these lessons had been learned and folded into > the project so that users now input information on geographic maps and are > able to modify the visual language to their liking/expression. Maybe we > weren't clear enough about this or it still doesn't satisfy your comments. > > [sgp] > ________________________ > scott paterson (sweater wearer)
Look, I don't want to turn into a whinging pom, especially as its [sgp] again (now turned into scott paterson (sweater wearer)), but if you are going to have a public conversation about something it is nice and polite to reference the thing that you are talking about so we can follow or join in. Jess didn't give any link or reference for PDPal and nor did sgp in his interesting response. Now, I can Google with the best of them, but should I have to? Cheers, Ivan (bad morning, went to the wrong meeting last night)
Look, I don't want to turn into a whinging pom, especially as its [sgp] again (now turned into scott paterson (sweater wearer)), but if you are going to have a public conversation about something it is nice and polite to reference the thing that you are talking about so we can follow or join in. Jess didn't give any link or reference for PDPal and nor did sgp in his interesting response. Now, I can Google with the best of them, but should I have to? Cheers, Ivan (bad morning, went to the wrong meeting last night)
Ivan, Check out this url: www.pdpal.com It covers only the first version of PDPal, the one jess commented on. The new version is still in the works and will be unveiled at the Walker Art Center in June. [sgp]
re: sig's. Sheesh, lighten up about the sig's. No one goes after twhid and m river for theirs. It's a convenient way to sign off. If you want to know who I am then, yeah, use those killa google skillz.
—– Original Message —– From: "Ivan Pope" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 4:57 AM Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: On New York, gaps in toilet seat and a bit of art
> > > > sgp: I think some clarification is needed here. The 'cryptic Japanese > based > > iconography' is from the first version of PDPal we made during our > > residency. What we found, similar to what you observed, is that user's > > expectations of receiving a "map" were not met and the visual language we > > developed did not engender the personal we had intended. This was also > > Christiane's comment. The reason we spent time showing our current > > wireframes was to show how these lessons had been learned and folded into > > the project so that users now input information on geographic maps and are > > able to modify the visual language to their liking/expression. Maybe we > > weren't clear enough about this or it still doesn't satisfy your comments. > > > > [sgp] > > ________________________ > > scott paterson (sweater wearer) > > Look, I don't want to turn into a whinging pom, especially as its [sgp] > again (now turned into scott paterson (sweater wearer)), but if you are > going to have a public conversation about something it is nice and polite to > reference the thing that you are talking about so we can follow or join in. > Jess didn't give any link or reference for PDPal and nor did sgp in his > interesting response. Now, I can Google with the best of them, but should I > have to? > Cheers, > Ivan (bad morning, went to the wrong meeting last night) > > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup > -> post: [email protected] > -> questions: [email protected] > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support > + > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php >
thanks for adding more info which is helpful. Perhaps if I had been brave enough to say something at the presentation you could have talked a little more then and I do realise that adding my comments here its easy and 'safe' to take you to task after the event which is a little unfair.
[you wrote:sgp: Hmm, I think we were saying that we are currently limiting the mapping input to the 5 boroughs(Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island and Manhattan) for our installation this September. This is simply an issue of production time. The way we are building the project it will be easy to add maps in the future. Frankly, if you know someone at mapquest or a similar digital map company that would be willing to donate maps, please send them our way. So please be amused in sharing our mutual grief about deadlines and they're impact on idealism!!]
Although I see I was mistaken in thinking that the project just covered Manhattan, I still think translocal is a wee bit optimistic a label for 5 boroughs. I am an also an idealist as you say but a realist when it comes to deadlines. Its not that the project had to be scaled down to meet the deadline that I was 'amused' about, it was the it seemed to be presented with large and global terminology as a project large and global concerns.. and then mentioned that actually it wouldn't be er..quite as large and global. I think my main feeling was that your presentation (when it was just you and the pre-PDPal projects) was very laidback, informal and (although tech is not my thing) informative. Then when it went to the new project and the the other creators joined the presentation suddenly seemed to switch into 'BIG' mode when 'translocal', 'social-informational nodes '(I think that's the name that was used) 'social strategies' and all the rest of the museum- proposal hype started being thrown around in a way that I felt the project on the screen just couldn't live up to. I just don't think in this respect that idealism did any favours in respect of what is a strong, well researched project. It wasn't presented as "we have done, this, this and this and we would ideally like to extend it into here, here and here" it was presented as "these are global issues, these are big themes, these are deep narratives..but we couldn't do all of them because we ran out of time". That was what made me snigger and left me unsatisfied.
I hope you understand that I'm not attacking the project (although I still wonder about the use of the word social) I just still can't link the style and speech of the presentation with it's realization. My gripe with presentations (particularly those presenting projects that are backed by institutions as I think they add the pressure on the artists to convince people that their projects are BIG and very important) goes beyond this one. I think one of the constant battle ground in advancing net/digital art is there is always a gap between peoples (viewers) expectations of what the computers/net/digital art can achieve and what can actually be delivered given the constraints of technology, funding and time needed and this is reinforced by good (but constrained in certain areas) projects being 'talked up' in terms of their scope, social impact and global relevance. Personally I rather see a good project being presented the localized and interesting start of perhaps wider concerns and possibilities than disappointed by being told how BIG it is and wondering why…. j.
—– Original Message —– From: "jess" <[email protected]> > Although I see I was mistaken in thinking that the project just covered > Manhattan, I still think translocal is a wee bit optimistic a label > for 5 boroughs. >
sgp: I just want to clarify that we do intend to eventually have as global a map as possible. So maybe a better way to consider it is that we are starting with the NY metro area and Minneapolis(it's going to be installed there in June) but plan to expand and I have even wondered if it might be possible(technically) to have this expansion be bottom-up. To have users be able to upload their own area maps. Also thanks for the thoughts on our PDPal-speak. We are constantly re-tuning and re-fining it.
Comments
hi Jess,
Thanks for the account of your visit to our fine city. It's nice to see
it through eyes that don't take it all for granted.
On Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 07:58 PM, jess wrote:
>
>
> I love New York. A cliche but true.
one of the best ways to see New York IMO is from a cab as you go home
late and a little drunk. I like going from the west side to my place in
bklyn. you go through all the different neighborhoods, see all the
different people in the different neighborhoods, then hit the
Williamsburg Bridge. The Billyburg bridge is being spliced together
with a suburban freeway overpass somehow. It's industrial age New York
meets the I-95 overpass. it's a strange combination. It was about to
fall down so the city had to fix it.
I love coming over the bridges into Manhattan as well; from car, bike,
or foot it's grand.
>
> Coming home the next day (with a stomach full of the best pesto in
> NY
see comments embedded…
—– Original Message —–
From: "jess" <[email protected]>
At the risk of pissing off
> my new found acquaintances, the presentation (in spite of Scott Pattersons
> unpretentious and easy-going delivery) was the least interesting
> thing about the meeting. I was really pretty shocked to hear the
> resplendent pleasures of the gallery setting being promoted as so
> totally more engaging than the virtual (both aesthetically and
tactically).
> It wasn't something I had expected in such a group of net 'converts'.
sgp: Well, not sure if this is what you mean, but, it's tough to compete
with that lovely empty taxi garage with a dinky little portable screen. I've
only seen one project ever do it, they projected onto the floor, and to
achieve it, all the lights were turned off and the skylights covered so you
couldn't see the place!!
> The PDPal project simply left me wondering what I had missed. We
> were told repeatedly by one of the curators of the social aspect
> of the project (which allows users to 'map' their feelings/place/space/etc
> through the PDA) but then shown how these personal, intriguing and
> distinct pieces of information were translated into cryptic Japanese
> based iconography (which make up the individual 'maps') thus rendering
> any social mapping unreadable to anyone bar the few that had the
> inner knowledge to unlock the symbols. It amused me that in mapping
> the social and personal they had encrypted it so perfectly that the
> piece became simply another encoded visual arrangement turning
individuality
> and textual emotion back into just another work about the machine.
sgp: I think some clarification is needed here. The 'cryptic Japanese based
iconography' is from the first version of PDPal we made during our
residency. What we found, similar to what you observed, is that user's
expectations of receiving a "map" were not met and the visual language we
developed did not engender the personal we had intended. This was also
Christiane's comment. The reason we spent time showing our current
wireframes was to show how these lessons had been learned and folded into
the project so that users now input information on geographic maps and are
able to modify the visual language to their liking/expression. Maybe we
weren't clear enough about this or it still doesn't satisfy your comments.
> What amused me even more is how the creators went on to expound
> the joys and vital ness of translocality in new media and PDA's..
> .before dropping in that they had to limit the project to simply
> 'mapping' Manhattan as they were running out of time before the
exhibition.
sgp: Hmm, I think we were saying that we are currently limiting the mapping
input to the 5 boroughs(Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island and
Manhattan) for our installation this September. This is simply an issue of
production time. The way we are building the project it will be easy to add
maps in the future. Frankly, if you know someone at mapquest or a similar
digital map company that would be willing to donate maps, please send them
our way. So please be amused in sharing our mutual grief about deadlines and
they're impact on idealism!!
> Although I might be alone in my gripe about social relevance (although
> one questioner asked 'just how is it social relevant?' and was met
> with stony silence) the ripple of sniggering when informed about
> the 'Manhattan translocal' makes me think that I wasn't the only
> one to have been left unsatisfied.
sgp: Social relevance? What's that? Ha ha. just kidding. I think our stony
silence was more confusion about the question than lack of an answer. We had
just spent much of the presentation discussing the social aspects of the
project. How people can see other user's maps, etc. Ah, now it just occurs
to me, that Diane may have been using socially relevant in a different way.
We had just been talking about the communal aspects, but I might hazard that
she was trying to tease out - and I have to say her question was not
well-formed and faded out at its end - some ideas about the relationship
between tech/society/space? To this question I think the project is
directed. We are very interested in PDPal transforming the way people
understand their urban experiences, both private, public and social and in
that revelation becoming keenly aware of its shaping forces. Do you recall
our example of the anecdote about a guy imagining garbage trucks as
dinosaurs? It's a device for coping with urban infrastructures. We are
already in talks with a few groups about using PDPal with kids and school
groups to understand their neighborhood. So, I'm sorry if this wasn't clear
and if I am still not clear above please feel free to keep the questions
flowing.
Best regards,
[sgp]
________________________
scott paterson (sweater wearer)
>
> sgp: I think some clarification is needed here. The 'cryptic Japanese
based
> iconography' is from the first version of PDPal we made during our
> residency. What we found, similar to what you observed, is that user's
> expectations of receiving a "map" were not met and the visual language we
> developed did not engender the personal we had intended. This was also
> Christiane's comment. The reason we spent time showing our current
> wireframes was to show how these lessons had been learned and folded into
> the project so that users now input information on geographic maps and are
> able to modify the visual language to their liking/expression. Maybe we
> weren't clear enough about this or it still doesn't satisfy your comments.
>
> [sgp]
> ________________________
> scott paterson (sweater wearer)
Look, I don't want to turn into a whinging pom, especially as its [sgp]
again (now turned into scott paterson (sweater wearer)), but if you are
going to have a public conversation about something it is nice and polite to
reference the thing that you are talking about so we can follow or join in.
Jess didn't give any link or reference for PDPal and nor did sgp in his
interesting response. Now, I can Google with the best of them, but should I
have to?
Cheers,
Ivan (bad morning, went to the wrong meeting last night)
many apologies Ivan,
the site I went to after the eyebeam presentation was at:
http://www.sgp-7.net/proj/pr/index.shtm
cheers,
j.
the
——-
Look, I don't want to turn into a whinging pom, especially as its [sgp]
again (now turned into scott paterson (sweater wearer)), but if you are
going to have a public conversation about something it is nice and
polite
to
reference the thing that you are talking about so we can follow or join
in.
Jess didn't give any link or reference for PDPal and nor did sgp in his
interesting response. Now, I can Google with the best of them, but
should
I
have to?
Cheers,
Ivan (bad morning, went to the wrong meeting last night)
Ivan,
Check out this url:
www.pdpal.com
It covers only the first version of PDPal, the one jess commented on. The
new version is still in the works and will be unveiled at the Walker Art
Center in June.
[sgp]
re: sig's. Sheesh, lighten up about the sig's. No one goes after twhid and m
river for theirs. It's a convenient way to sign off. If you want to know who
I am then, yeah, use those killa google skillz.
—– Original Message —–
From: "Ivan Pope" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 4:57 AM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: On New York, gaps in toilet seat and a bit of art
> >
> > sgp: I think some clarification is needed here. The 'cryptic Japanese
> based
> > iconography' is from the first version of PDPal we made during our
> > residency. What we found, similar to what you observed, is that user's
> > expectations of receiving a "map" were not met and the visual language
we
> > developed did not engender the personal we had intended. This was also
> > Christiane's comment. The reason we spent time showing our current
> > wireframes was to show how these lessons had been learned and folded
into
> > the project so that users now input information on geographic maps and
are
> > able to modify the visual language to their liking/expression. Maybe we
> > weren't clear enough about this or it still doesn't satisfy your
comments.
> >
> > [sgp]
> > ________________________
> > scott paterson (sweater wearer)
>
> Look, I don't want to turn into a whinging pom, especially as its [sgp]
> again (now turned into scott paterson (sweater wearer)), but if you are
> going to have a public conversation about something it is nice and polite
to
> reference the thing that you are talking about so we can follow or join
in.
> Jess didn't give any link or reference for PDPal and nor did sgp in his
> interesting response. Now, I can Google with the best of them, but should
I
> have to?
> Cheers,
> Ivan (bad morning, went to the wrong meeting last night)
>
> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
Ivan,
Or just email me and ask…
[sgp]
—– Original Message —–
From: "sgp" <[email protected]>
If you want to know who I am then, yeah, use those killa google skillz.
hi sgp,
thanks for adding more info which is helpful. Perhaps if I had been
brave enough to say something at the presentation you could have
talked a little more then and I do realise that adding my comments
here its easy and 'safe' to take you to task after the event which
is a little unfair.
[you wrote:sgp: Hmm, I think we were saying that we are currently
limiting the mapping input to the 5 boroughs(Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens,
Staten Island and
Manhattan) for our installation this September. This is simply an issue
of production time. The way we are building the project it will be
easy to
add maps in the future. Frankly, if you know someone at mapquest or a
similar digital map company that would be willing to donate maps,
please send them our way. So please be amused in sharing our mutual
grief about deadlines and they're impact on idealism!!]
Although I see I was mistaken in thinking that the project just covered
Manhattan, I still think translocal is a wee bit optimistic a label
for 5 boroughs. I am an also an idealist as you say but a realist
when it comes to deadlines. Its not that the project had to be scaled
down to meet the deadline that I was 'amused' about, it was the it
seemed to be presented with large and global terminology as a project
large and global concerns.. and then mentioned that actually it wouldn't
be er..quite as large and global. I think my main feeling was that
your presentation (when it was just you and the pre-PDPal projects)
was very laidback, informal and (although tech is not my thing) informative.
Then when it went to the new project and the the other creators
joined the presentation suddenly seemed to switch into 'BIG' mode
when 'translocal', 'social-informational nodes '(I think that's the
name that was used) 'social strategies' and all the rest of the museum-
proposal hype started being thrown around in a way that I felt the
project on the screen just couldn't live up to. I just don't think
in this respect that idealism did any favours in respect of what
is a strong, well researched project. It wasn't presented as "we
have done, this, this and this and we would ideally like to extend
it into here, here and here" it was presented as "these are global
issues, these are big themes, these are deep narratives..but we couldn't
do all of them because we ran out of time". That was what made me
snigger and left me unsatisfied.
I hope you understand that I'm not attacking the project (although
I still wonder about the use of the word social) I just still can't
link the style and speech of the presentation with it's realization.
My gripe with presentations (particularly those presenting projects
that are backed by institutions as I think they add the pressure
on the artists to convince people that their projects are BIG and
very important) goes beyond this one. I think one of the constant
battle ground in advancing net/digital art is there is always a gap
between peoples (viewers) expectations of what the computers/net/digital
art can achieve and what can actually be delivered given the constraints
of technology, funding and time needed and this is reinforced by
good (but constrained in certain areas) projects being 'talked up'
in terms of their scope, social impact and global relevance. Personally
I rather see a good project being presented the localized and interesting
start of perhaps wider concerns and possibilities than disappointed
by being told how BIG it is and wondering why….
j.
—– Original Message —–
From: "jess" <[email protected]>
> Although I see I was mistaken in thinking that the project just covered
> Manhattan, I still think translocal is a wee bit optimistic a label
> for 5 boroughs. >
sgp: I just want to clarify that we do intend to eventually have as global a
map as possible. So maybe a better way to consider it is that we are
starting with the NY metro area and Minneapolis(it's going to be installed
there in June) but plan to expand and I have even wondered if it might be
possible(technically) to have this expansion be bottom-up. To have users be
able to upload their own area maps. Also thanks for the thoughts on our
PDPal-speak. We are constantly re-tuning and re-fining it.
[sgp]