Palestinian War Criminals

From: "Ivan Pope" <[email protected]>
> Would you extend the same kind offer of assistance to the Palestinians who
> seem to find their country occupied?
> Cheers,
> Ivan

Israel/PA: Suicide Bombers Commit Crimes Against Humanity )

(Gaza, November 1, 2002) The people responsible for planning and carrying o=
ut suicide bombings that deliberately target civilians are guilty of crimes=
against humanity and should be brought to justice, Human Rights Watch said=
in a new report today.

The 170-page report is the first full-fledged examination of individual cri=
minal responsibility for suicide bombings against civilians in Israel and t=
he Israeli-occupied territories. The report, Erased in a Moment: Suicide Bo=
mbing Attacks against Israeli Civilians, also provides the most thorough st=
udy to date of the suicide bombing operations of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the =
al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Pales=
tine (PFLP), the groups that have claimed responsibility for almost all rec=
ent suicide bombings.

"The people who carry out suicide bombings are not martyrs, they're war cri=
minals, and so are the people who help to plan such attacks," said Kenneth =
Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. "The scale and systematic n=
ature of these attacks sets them apart from other abuses committed in times=
of conflict. They clearly fall under the category of crimes against humani=
ty."

Since January 2001, 52 Palestinian suicide bombings have killed some 250 ci=
vilians and injured 2,000 more.

Well-established principles of international law require that those in auth=
ority be held accountable when people under their control commit war crimes=
or crimes against humanity. Leaders who order such crimes, fail to take re=
asonable preventive action, or fail to punish the perpetrators are also res=
ponsible for such crimes.
The top leaders of Hamas and Islamic Jihad have openly espoused, encouraged=
, or endorsed suicide bombing attacks against Israeli civilians, and indica=
ted that they have the capacity to stop them from happening. Those leaders,=
such as Hamas's Shaikh Ahmad Yassin and Khalid Mish`al and Islamic Jihad's=
Ramadan Shalah, should face criminal investigation for their roles in thes=
e crimes. The PFLP has publicly claimed responsibility for suicide bombings=
and car bombings against civilians. Its leaders appear to exercise control=
over their occurrence and so warrant criminal investigation. In the case o=
f the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, control and responsibility appears to be c=
entered at local levels, and those responsible should also face criminal in=
vestigation.

The Human Rights Watch report assesses the role and responsibility of the P=
alestinian Authority (PA) and President Yasir Arafat regarding suicide bomb=
ings against civilians. It concludes that the PA failed to take all availab=
le measures to deter such attacks or bring those responsible to justice, an=
d by its failure contributed to an atmosphere of impunity for such crimes.=


"The greatest failure of President Arafat and the PA leadership is their un=
willingness to deploy the criminal justice system to deter the suicide bomb=
ings, particularly in 2001, when the PA was most capable of doing so," Roth=
said.

Roth said the PA's failure to take effective preventive action or to punish=
perpetrators outside of its control does not meet the criteria of command =
responsibility under the current state of international law. "But Arafat an=
d the PA do bear a high degree of political responsibility for the atrociti=
es that occurred," Roth said.
The PA has argued that Israeli actions, such as the destruction of PA polic=
e and security installations, undermined its capacity to act. But even when=
that capacity was largely intact, the PA took no effective action to bring=
to justice those who incited, planned or assisted in carrying out bombings=
and other attacks on Israeli civilians. Instead, the PA pursued a policy w=
hereby suspects, when they were detained, were not investigated or prosecut=
ed, but typically were soon let out onto the street again.

The PA sought to explain these releases by citing the danger to detainees w=
hen Israeli forces bombed places of detention. But the PA has not explained=
why suspects were never investigated or charged, steps that do not depend =
on holding suspects in places of detention.

Human Rights Watch conducted in-depth interviews with PA officials and memb=
ers of the armed groups, and closely reviewed PA internal documents made pu=
blic by Israel. On the basis of what was publicly available to date, Human =
Rights Watch did not find evidence that Arafat or the PA planned, ordered o=
r carried out suicide bombings or other attacks on Israeli civilians, or th=
at they were able to exercise effective control over the actions of the per=
petrator groups, including the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, an off-shoot of A=
rafat's Fatah movement.

Palestinian armed groups and their supporters have pointed to repeated Isra=
eli attacks that have killed and injured Palestinian civilians as justifica=
tion for the suicide bombings and other attacks on Israeli civilians. The r=
eport concludes that these arguments in no way justify reprisals that targe=
t or indiscriminately attack civilians.
"The prohibition against targeting civilians doesn't depend on the behavior=
of one's adversary," Roth said. "Even in the face of Israeli violations of=
international law, Palestinian armed groups must refrain from deliberate a=
ttacks against civilians."

The armed groups responsible for these attacks argue that Israel's continui=
ng military occupation, and its vastly superior means of combat, make such =
attacks their only option. Again, these arguments find no justification wha=
tsoever in international law, which is absolute and unconditional in its pr=
ohibition of intentional attacks against civilians.

"Armed conflicts often involve discrepancies of power between adversaries,"=
said Roth. "Allowing those discrepancies to justify attacking civilians wo=
uld create an immense loophole in the protections of international humanita=
rian law."

Finally, Palestinian armed groups also assert that their targets are not re=
ally civilians because "all Israelis are reservists" or because, they say, =
Israeli residents of settlements have forfeited their civilian status. The =
report points out that international humanitarian law is clear: reserve mem=
bers of military forces are combatants only while on active duty, and other=
wise benefit from protection as civilians. And while civilian Israeli settl=
ements in the West Bank and Gaza are illegal under international humanitari=
an law, persons residing there are entitled to protection as civilians exce=
pt when they are directly participating in hostilities.

Human Rights Watch called on all Palestinian armed groups to halt attacks o=
n civilians immediately and unconditionally, and urged the PA to ensure tha=
t those in any way responsible for such attacks are brought to justice. Hum=
an Rights Watch also urged the PA to undertake a public campaign urging an =
end suicide bombings and other attacks against civilians and making clear t=
hat the PA does not consider as "martyrs" people who die carrying out attac=
ks that deliberately or indiscriminately kill or cause great suffering amon=
g civilians.

Comments

, Ivan Pope

From: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>

From: "Ivan Pope" <[email protected]>
> Would you extend the same kind offer of assistance to the Palestinians who
> seem to find their country occupied?
> Cheers,
> Ivan

Israel/PA: Suicide Bombers Commit Crimes Against Humanity )

(Gaza, November 1, 2002) The people responsible for planning and carrying
out suicide bombings that deliberately target civilians are guilty of crimes
against humanity and should be brought to justice <snip>

Yes, well, do you think that the US should extend arms and assistance to the
Palestinians who find that their country is occupied by foreign nationals?
YES or NO. Do you think that (suicide bombings aside) the Palestinians have
a legitimate right to resist occupation? YES or NO.

Cheers, Ivan

, Wally Keeler

Re: Palestinian War Criminals—– Original Message —–
From: Ivan Pope
From: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
From: "Ivan Pope" <[email protected]>
> Would you extend the same kind offer of assistance to the Palestinians =
who
> seem to find their country occupied?
> Cheers,
> Ivan

Israel/PA: Suicide Bombers Commit Crimes Against Humanity )

(Gaza, November 1, 2002) The people responsible for planning and carrying=
out suicide bombings that deliberately target civilians are guilty of crim=
es against humanity and should be brought to justice <snip>



Yes, well, do you think that the US should extend arms and assistance t=
o the Palestinians who find that their country is occupied by foreign natio=
nals? YES or NO. Do you think that (suicide bombings aside) the Palestinian=
s have a legitimate right to resist occupation? YES or NO.

Getting prosecutorial aren't ya? Sorry but I don't fall for your sophor=
moronic posture as RHIZOME DA.
However, I had already replied to your question Oct 31 and it was poste=
d here. Go back and read it.
You got two replies from me which some might consider to be more than y=
ou deserve.
How about you? A simple YES or NO will suffice.

, Wally Keeler

Re: Palestinian War Criminals
—– Original Message —–
From: Ivan Pope
Israel/PA: Suicide Bombers Commit Crimes Against Humanity )

(Gaza, November 1, 2002) The people responsible for planning and carrying=
out suicide bombings that deliberately target civilians are guilty of crim=
es against humanity and should be brought to justice <snip>



Yes, well,

That's all you have to say about crimes against humanity? That's all it=
means to you?

do you think that the US should extend arms and assistance to the Pales=
tinians who find that their country is occupied by foreign nationals? YES o=
r NO. Do you think that (suicide bombings aside) the Palestinians have a le=
gitimate right to resist occupation? YES or NO.

Of course the Palestinians have the material support of the entire Musl=
im world. In fact several counties went to war against Israel on behalf of =
the Palestinians, with the purpose of driving the Jews into the sea (ie. an=
nihilating them – genocide). Unfortunately for the Palestinians, they lost=
.

In any event, what would the USA gain by providing weapons to the Pales=
tinians?

, Wally Keeler

Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Re: Palestinian War Criminals—– Original Message —–=

From: Ivan Pope
To: Wally Keeler
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 3:50 AM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Re: Palestinian War Criminals

From: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
—– Original Message —–
From: Ivan Pope <mailto:[email protected]>
Israel/PA: Suicide Bombers Commit Crimes Against Humanity )

(Gaza, November 1, 2002) The people responsible for planning and carrying=
out suicide bombings that deliberately target civilians are guilty of crim=
es against humanity and should be brought to justice <snip>

Yes, well,

That's all you have to say about crimes against humanity? That's al=
l it means to you?

Avoiding an answer?


Just trying to avoid getting bogged down in specific events and con=
centrate on your original concept, that the US has a duty to provide assist=
ance to nations who have had their territory occupied.
Of course the Palestinians have the material support of the entire =
Muslim world. In fact several counties went to war against Israel on behalf=
of the Palestinians, with the purpose of driving the Jews into the sea (ie=
. annihilating them – genocide). Unfortunately for the Palestinians, they =
lost.

In any event, what would the USA gain by providing weapons to the P=
alestinians?


Again, I wasnt aware that your argument for the US providing assistance t=
o the Afghans was based on whether or not they had actually already lost.=



It wasn't. It was based on what served USA's interests where it intersect=
ed with the interests of the mujahadin


Or whether they had assistance from any other nations.


It wasn't, It was based on what served USA's interests where it intersect=
ed with the interests of the mujahadin.


And our discussion isnt about what the US would gain,


Well it was, and you don't get to define what can or can't be included in=
the discussion between us.


though good relations with the rest of the Arab world would be one of the=
m.


The USA already has relations sufficient to keep cheap oil flowing, what =
more do they need?


Might help with this current obsession with deposing Saddam Hussein.


The USA really doesn't need their help in that department .

Cheers, Ivan


All good things
Wally