Re: [thingist] [Fwd: Please Support Rhizome Now!]

Alright, service to service, cost to cost, chest to chest. Get ready to Rumble!

Joseph

>From: Peter von Brandenburg <[email protected]>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [thingist] [Fwd: Please Support Rhizome Now!]
>Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 14:10:22 -0400
>
>Dear Max & al,
>
>I was so pleased not to have dumped any of youknowwho when I emptied the
>trash
>this morning that I actually read you for a change.
>
>Max Herman wrote:
>
> > You jerks are paranoid. Grants that big go in the bank, and they spend
>the
> > interest–40k a year.
>
>They have commissions out & (as noted elsewhere) they pay salaries, we pay
>"honoraria", iow they have *overhead*. But still (as also noted elsewhere)
>Mark's around & someone should ask him (ftm I can't believe that no 'zomers
>are
>lurking here & whoever is can as well A themself).
>
> > Blackhawk, do you support the attack on Iraq?
>
>No, I u/stand it but it but therefore it represents a total b/down in
>intelligence & an almost unimaginable contempt for diplomacy. It seems to
>me
>that Shrub is exactly as barbaric as Saddam in seeing this as a "family
>thing" &
>aside from my earlier comment about "stowing the hostage" in re Israel,
>while it
>would clear the deck for further actions in the region I am more concerned
>w/
>how it might permit further governmental mayhem domestically.
>
> > Did you see the thing by that German leftist, forgot his name?
>
>& I'm supposed to know who that is because there's only one of them?
>
> > Also, if anyone wants to see the
>www.geocities.com/genius-2000/Conf2000.html
> > it's almost done.
>
>Thanks, no.
>
> > You able to comment on G2K yet BH or is it still the leper in the
>basement
> > dungeon? Still piffle by an evil man?
>
>No & I'm not going to. It's not you & it's not your work that I have
>issues
>w/. It's the PACKAGE. I'd like to like you but I find you maddeningly
>erratic
>(& it takes one to know one). You have an equal chance of rewarding my
>attn as
>wasting my time. That's why I only read you occasionally. If I read you
>for a
>week, say, I can tell exactly when you've had too much beer & get silly…
>at
>which times you are doing yourself a real disservice. My fern, PJ (who is
>from
>Minneapolis orig) says that of all his old school chums, the ones who went
>to
>live in major art centers are all merely eccentric whereas those who stayed
>home
>have all gone animal crackers; make of that what you will (but PJ's not
>dumb).
>Max, this whole artist-as-cottage-industry thing is so 80's I can't even
>tell
>you… I was around then, that's Co-Lab or something; it was kuel at the
>time,
>but now it's O - V - E - R, *over*. Since then commercial "players" have
>revealed themselves to be the enemies of art & betrayers of culture, there
>is no
>point in aping them & no point in critiquing them;

tim,

i haven't been following the discussion on rhizome, so i don't know if people
have responded to this there. but you've made it look here as though *wolfgang*
were asking 'what does rhizome do with all that money' when in fact it wasn't
he, and he wouldn't ever make such an implication, i don't think.

brian

"t.whid" <[email protected]> wrote:

> i'll defend rhizome. i'm cc'ing to Rhizome too.
>
> first, it's unfair to compare the 7k that The Thing received to Rhiz's
> 440k as TT also has dough coming in from it's ISP service; for the last
> year Rhiz got only grants and donations (they are now attempting a
> hosting service and classes to raise money so that may change in the
> future). What sort of revenue does TT make from it's ISP business?
>
> second, is The Thing non-profit? Do I get a tax write-off if I donate?
> I took a quick look at the site and didn't see any info to that regard.
> I suppose I could write-off ISP and hosting fees as expenses but I can
> get those elsewhere cheaper and write 'em off too.
>
> Rhiz pays an editor (rachel greene), a programmer (francis hwang), an
> artbase assistant, and MT of course. fair compensation for these four
> should be at least 150k (or more). they also pay for daily net art news
> blurbs (assuming 50 bucks per blurb 50USD * 5 * 52 = 13k). they don't
> have their own hosting facilities on-site as TT does so they pay for
> hosting and bandwidth. i would guess from what little i know about
> these commercial rates that they prolly pay 30-50k a year. plus the
> commissions, they just paid out around 20k (or more). and the expensive
> soho loft of course. prolly costing at least 24k (they were sharing the
> costs) a year. plus software, legal, office expenses, insurance,
> hardware, event hosting, travel, development… (my total comes to
> around 250k, but that's not counting the list of expenses at the end)
>
> we could just ask Mark Tribe, he's always been upfront and honest about
> what he's doing; as robbin noted, he's obligated to make it public
> anyway.
>
> re: expensive soho loft: I invite Rhizome to move to beautiful
> Brooklyn, that's where all the cool kids are anyway :-)
>
>
> On Saturday, October 12, 2002, at 10:54 AM, Liza Sabater wrote:
>
> > It can't be 440,000 this year!! Didn't he say back in June at the
> > Upgrade they had no money then? Could that have been money tied into
> > the commission money they gave out this year? Anyhow, their offices
> > are (were) in Soho. That in itself would make anybody go bankrupt.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >> on 10/11/02 2:24 PM, Wolfgang Staehle at [email protected] wrote:
> >>
> >>> Last Monday I read in the Times that Rhizome received
> >>> $440.000 in grants this year… so far The Thing, in spite of
> >>> intense
> >>> fund raising efforts, received two mini grants (from NYSCA and
> >>> MorganChase - thank you!) totaling $7,000.
> >>
> >> What _does_ Mark _do_ with all that money! We should ask to see
> >> Rhizome's
> >> annual report, which they have to file as an NPO. There's something
> >> really
> >> screwy going on there.
> >>
> >> And the Rockefeller Foundation has also dumped a pile of loot for
> >> something
> >> called the Arts Lab created by Leonardo Journal and headed by Michael
> >> Naimark (http://www.artslab.net/pr071502.html) that sounds
> >> suspiciously like
> >> what we proposed two years ago to the same foundation.
> >>
> >> Argh!
> >>
> >>
> >>> Checks or money orders may be sent to The Thing Inc, 601 West 26th
> >>> Street, New York NY 10001.
> >>>
> –
> <t.whid>
> www.mteww.com
> </t.whid>
>
> ——————————————————————–
> t h i n g i s t
> message by "t.whid" <[email protected]>
> archive at http://bbs.thing.net
> info: send email to [email protected]
> and write "info thingist" in the message body
> ——————————————————————–
>
>

hi tim,

this is a detail but i do want to clarify: there's nothing wrong with the
question but it does make implications (if you take it without the humor rob
intended) that i know wolfgang didn't want to make, that's all, and i didn't
want rhizomers thinking he was making – which was why we were posting to both
lists.

nice to see 'markustribus' on the bbs today for a few minutes!

brian

.whid" <[email protected]> wrote:

> hi brian,
>
> it was robbin murphy who asked the question. there is nothing wrong
> with the question.
>
> i suppose by comparing TT and Rhiz costs head to head it could look
> like it was wolfgang who was asking the question. there is nothing
> wrong with the question, i think everyone agrees on that.
>
> c-ya
>
>
> On Monday, October 14, 2002, at 02:42 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
> >
> > tim,
> >
> > i haven't been following the discussion on rhizome, so i don't know if
> > people
> > have responded to this there. but you've made it look here as though
> > *wolfgang*
> > were asking 'what does rhizome do with all that money' when in fact it
> > wasn't
> > he, and he wouldn't ever make such an implication, i don't think.
> >
> > brian
> >
> > "t.whid" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> i'll defend rhizome. i'm cc'ing to Rhizome too.
> >>
> >> first, it's unfair to compare the 7k that The Thing received to Rhiz's
> >> 440k as TT also has dough coming in from it's ISP service; for the
> >> last
> >> year Rhiz got only grants and donations (they are now attempting a
> >> hosting service and classes to raise money so that may change in the
> >> future). What sort of revenue does TT make from it's ISP business?
> >>
> >> second, is The Thing non-profit? Do I get a tax write-off if I donate?
> >> I took a quick look at the site and didn't see any info to that
> >> regard.
> >> I suppose I could write-off ISP and hosting fees as expenses but I can
> >> get those elsewhere cheaper and write 'em off too.
> >>
> >> Rhiz pays an editor (rachel greene), a programmer (francis hwang), an
> >> artbase assistant, and MT of course. fair compensation for these four
> >> should be at least 150k (or more). they also pay for daily net art
> >> news
> >> blurbs (assuming 50 bucks per blurb 50USD * 5 * 52 = 13k). they don't
> >> have their own hosting facilities on-site as TT does so they pay for
> >> hosting and bandwidth. i would guess from what little i know about
> >> these commercial rates that they prolly pay 30-50k a year. plus the
> >> commissions, they just paid out around 20k (or more). and the
> >> expensive
> >> soho loft of course. prolly costing at least 24k (they were sharing
> >> the
> >> costs) a year. plus software, legal, office expenses, insurance,
> >> hardware, event hosting, travel, development… (my total comes to
> >> around 250k, but that's not counting the list of expenses at the end)
> >>
> >> we could just ask Mark Tribe, he's always been upfront and honest
> >> about
> >> what he's doing; as robbin noted, he's obligated to make it public
> >> anyway.
> >>
> >> re: expensive soho loft: I invite Rhizome to move to beautiful
> >> Brooklyn, that's where all the cool kids are anyway :-)
> >>
> >>
> >> On Saturday, October 12, 2002, at 10:54 AM, Liza Sabater wrote:
> >>
> >>> It can't be 440,000 this year!! Didn't he say back in June at the
> >>> Upgrade they had no money then? Could that have been money tied into
> >>> the commission money they gave out this year? Anyhow, their offices
> >>> are (were) in Soho. That in itself would make anybody go bankrupt.
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> on 10/11/02 2:24 PM, Wolfgang Staehle at [email protected]
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Last Monday I read in the Times that Rhizome received
> >>>>> $440.000 in grants this year… so far The Thing, in spite of
> >>>>> intense
> >>>>> fund raising efforts, received two mini grants (from NYSCA and
> >>>>> MorganChase - thank you!) totaling $7,000.
> >>>>
> >>>> What _does_ Mark _do_ with all that money! We should ask to see
> >>>> Rhizome's
> >>>> annual report, which they have to file as an NPO. There's something
> >>>> really
> >>>> screwy going on there.
> >>>>
> >>>> And the Rockefeller Foundation has also dumped a pile of loot for
> >>>> something
> >>>> called the Arts Lab created by Leonardo Journal and headed by
> >>>> Michael
> >>>> Naimark (http://www.artslab.net/pr071502.html) that sounds
> >>>> suspiciously like
> >>>> what we proposed two years ago to the same foundation.
> >>>>
> >>>> Argh!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Checks or money orders may be sent to The Thing Inc, 601 West 26th
> >>>>> Street, New York NY 10001.
> >>>>>
> >> –
> >> <t.whid>
> >> www.mteww.com
> >> </t.whid>
> >>
> >> ——————————————————————–
> >> t h i n g i s t
> >> message by "t.whid" <[email protected]>
> >> archive at http://bbs.thing.net
> >> info: send email to [email protected]
> >> and write "info thingist" in the message body
> >> ——————————————————————–
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ——————————————————————–
> > t h i n g i s t
> > message by [email protected]
> > archive at http://bbs.thing.net
> > info: send email to [email protected]
> > and write "info thingist" in the message body
> > ——————————————————————–
> >
> >
> –
> <t.whid>
> www.mteww.com
> </t.whid>
>
> ——————————————————————–
> t h i n g i s t
> message by "t.whid" <[email protected]>
> archive at http://bbs.thing.net
> info: send email to [email protected]
> and write "info thingist" in the message body
> ——————————————————————–
>
>