Cupcakes, signal, noise

Quoting furtherfield <[email protected]>:

> Hi Joseph,
>
> I think that Springer is empty & you are not part of that ilk, do not
> accept
> that label - although if you are a transexual, furtherfield is willing to
> promote your gender's agenda… via its transgressive section. Of course
> others are welcome to submit if they are interested.
>
>
> http://www.furtherfield.org/transgressions.html


I didn't think Eskimos were part of that crowd, but Patrick Lichty sure lumped
them togethor. So I will stand with the Eskimos.

Or be proud to stand on any line you are standing on.

–
Joseph Franklyn McElroy
Cor[porat]e [Per]form[ance] Art[ist]

Quoting Patrick Lichty <[email protected]>:

> Sorry if I sound condescending, which isn't the case. That involves
> personal feelings about the subject, which have been driven out of me long

Don't apologize Pat my boy, you are condescending, always and forever, amen.
Someone gave you the misguided notion that you are smarter than the average
bear. So you have to act like it.

But you do have a nice little career going, daddy will be proud. Keep up the
resume building, maybe they will hang it in a museum some day. Caption "Here
lies the true art of Patrick Lichty, he was dedicated to cultural inquiry and
social activism through technological arts advocacy, exploration of media
subversion and nonlinear narrative, and independent curatorial projects. "

You forgot the keywords "disruptive tecnology", thats pretty hot right now.

Can I hire you to write my Art Business Plan?

>

–
Joseph Franklyn McElroy
Cor[porat]e [Per]form[ance] Art[ist]

>Quoting Patrick Lichty <[email protected]>:
>
>> Sorry if I sound condescending, which isn't the case. That involves
>> personal feelings about the subject, which have been driven out of me long
>
>Don't apologize Pat my boy, you are condescending, always and forever, amen.
>Someone gave you the misguided notion that you are smarter than the average
>bear. So you have to act like it.
>
>But you do have a nice little career going, daddy will be proud. Keep up the
>resume building, maybe they will hang it in a museum some day. Caption "Here
>lies the true art of Patrick Lichty, he was dedicated to cultural inquiry and
>social activism through technological arts advocacy, exploration of media
>subversion and nonlinear narrative, and independent curatorial projects. "

i think i would use semi-colons as opposed to apostrophes, but my
grammar and punctuation is horrendous (not to mention my spelling).
that's what one gets from an art school education as opposed to a
liberal arts one i suppose.

anyway, pat helped invent the keywords, he should be able to use 'em.


–
<twhid>
http://www.mteww.com
</twhid>

Hello Patrick,



Isn't it much more to do with people's different needs and aspirations and
what they can get out of the rhizome list? Ok, the flavor may not be in
keeping with your taste, but does that make it a bad or a sub-standard
thing?



Your personal needs and professional interests have obviously changed in
time and your intentions are not the same as they were when you first joined
rhizome. Your career has changed and its demands ask for functions that may
dictate what you want from this list. I've seen many of your projects and
ideas and think that they are sincere, well thought out and pretty
stimulating in their conception and do consciously involve (without pseudo
cynicism) human interaction in a generous manner. I am happy to applaud your
work openly on this list because I do not feel that sharing such intimate
and human observations are wrong on here, although it does seem this type of
communication does not fit into your remit or need of intellectual stimuli.
Your choice, but may be other people on this list want to share the
interaction itself, isn't there value in that?



Colonization from NN has not been such an issue for a long time now. NN,
Integer is currently on the Syndicate list these days promoting their
program and the use of, where ever it takes them. What you have termed as
'noise' is a reflection of life and life most of the time is a very noisy
experience, not just an intellectual exchange. I agree with you if you are
asking for discussions to be more open and frequent in relation to exploring
ideas/projects. Yet that does happen, although not in the way that you
prefer may be. You obviously have a personal criteria that you feel is not
being fulfilled by this list and its users any more.



Bringing myself into the frame here - I would like to know who you consider
to be 'our more cranky colleagues'? And have I been placed into that scary
category? I would certainly feel offended, even disturbed if you thought I
deserved such a stigmatizing label. Especially when I have been very
respectful to you, and to all the people on the list, taking account
(whenever possible) of their reasoning's, in a mutual way. I feel that my
own intentions have been very clear, in all of my posts. Would you rather
that someone like myself did not post links to various interesting sites?
Not post (short) essays that I have written for people to view? Poems, prose
& textural wanderings? Not have me comment on other people's ideas and
issues such as the one you have just sent? Do you think that I have
contributed positively, or have I in your eyes merely been part of the
gradual and ignorant-led, dumbing down of this list?

I still believe in the idea of a community. I live in one, which is a
flourishing mix of many cultures in London UK, and using approximately 93
different languages. I personally value all of it, and yes I desire
intellectual challenge from within that community but have come to terms
with searching for it intuitively rather than expecting it. And yes, to be
honest I have found it not where I first expected it. Not in colleges &
institutions, but in the community amongst friends of whom are willing to be
open and share their feelings and perceptions without worry of ridicule if
they say something silly by mistake.



Luckily I have met plenty of people from various walks of life whom have
generously taught me new things just by them being themselves. Not
pretending or posturing or telling in the name of art-power. Sometimes
intellectually challenging but always happy to have a joke, not taking (our)
themselves too seriously, offering alternative perceptions that have and do
inform my views on life and many cultural and intellectual issues. This list
is a bit like that, I might not necessarily agree with all its content but I
certainly would not want it to be censored. Although it seems that Rachel
could possibly fulfill your wish, and Ivan's so it seems. I'm open to being
contradicted, unlike some people I do not think that I am right all of the
time, just some of the time. And of course life offers more frills than that
kind of transient hollow need.



I do not view you as an elitist pig, your projects say different. Yet I do
question your perception on what intelligence actually is. The sub context
declares an interpretation that seems narrow in its definition. I believe
that intelligence is a varied and wonderful thing. It can be a fluid and
playful occurrence, arriving in many different packages that might not be
immediately obvious. The list gives us the opportunity to not all talk the
same language. Therefore, if we are at all interested that is, it also gives
us the option of questioning our own assumptions via the process of list
interaction.

So I suppose my main question is; do you feel that people should abide via a
general protocol? I feel if that happens all the joy and spontaneous havoc
will be lost, which might precisely be what you are arguing for. It'll die
if an imposing official type of communication 'format' was put in place. The
appliance of knowledge does not necessarily need to be from a place of
art-based education-speak, taught by institutions. One of the attractions
for me about this list is that there are people who are not afraid of
defending/arguing about certain ideas that do not fit in to already accepted
structures. I also do not believe that the list has gone wrong, in fact it
has flourished because of the freedoms it presently enjoys. And no, that
freedom is not abused as much as some people would like to promote. Yes, it
gets lively on here sometimes, but what's wrong with having a heated
discussion? It happens elsewhere, why not on here?



A rich tapestry of learning that is not just art criticism. I think that
your criticism of certain individuals is not fair and cuts out what they
have offered me and others, it seems designed to belittle them, make them
seem small. I will not censor your opinion and I hope that you are not
trying to censor mine. If you do not think that I am being intellectually
stimulating enough for you - try me. Academia is child's play in comparison
to real learned, emotionally informed thought.



Having said all this, I do not wish to start a silly banter with you Patrick
because I value your contribution, and I have said this many times. And yes
I respect Joeseph, Curt and Max, let them shine in their own way, not yours.



marc garrett




> Ivan,
> What's going on is the crank du jour vis-a-vis rhizome raw. For years, we
> have our various 'fringes' that intentionally inject noise into the system
> for purposes of intellectual colonization (NN, Max, Josh, Joseph) and
> control of the conversation. Pretty simple tactic, and very effective.
>
> Of course, there are different interpretations of 1st Amendment rights on
> private listservs, from the more intellectually - centered form of
dicussion
> to the more vitriolic Springer-esque mode of discussion offered (in
degrees,
> Max's sin with me is sheer volume and occasional steel chair yelling
> matches) by our more cranky colleagues.
>
> I've given up on letting it get under my skin, or fighting it. That's why
> Rare is around, or will be again. Eventually in a few months, Joseph will
> tire or get a clue of the relative unimportance of this list in the larger
> scheme of things as he has stated, and realize (unless he's a total
> net.geek.crank) that to put such energy into a listserv for the purpose to
> see his name on a mailing is pretty onanistic.
>
> I've been here for 5-6 years, more or less. It's a good source for
> information, but the level of discussion has definitely gone down on the
> whole over the years, and those who are new to this either do not see this
> as important, do not understand this idea as they have not been here, or
> have other agendas that they wish to inscribe upon the Rhizome community.
>
> Therefore, your only real defense is to exercise some intellectual judo
and
> just not give them a foothold unless you want to do so. Subscribe to Rare
> when it comes if you don't like the intellectual equivalent of Springer.
>
> For the moment, McElroy is our resident Transsexual Nazi Eskimo who's
> cheating on her husband with a 57 Plymouth, although he has some
interesting
> ideas on occasion.
>
> Sorry if I sound condescending, which isn't the case. That involves
> personal feelings about the subject, which have been driven out of me long
> ago. More like jaded and wistful for good conversation. "Whose
> standards?", yes, I've heard that, too. And of course, I'm going to get
> pilloried as a know-it-all elitist pig, which happens each time I bring
this
> up, which is no big deal.
>
> What the ideologue does with the first amendment is analogous to what
> Jurassic Park did with genetics, or what industrialists do with
> deregulation.
>
>
> > > Personally, I can't wait till Rachel gets in gear and Rare returns and
> we
> > > can all have some decent moderated discussion.
>
> > You really are a scared little man aren't you? Are any of your posts
> about > anything besides censoring what someone else said?
>
>
>
> + troikas in baklava
> -> Rhizome.org
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php3
>

Quoting "t.whid" <[email protected]>:

>
> anyway, pat helped invent the keywords, he should be able to use 'em.
>
>

There is a new bill in congress, one year term limits on keywords. Its part of
the soft money finance reform package.

It seems everybody is tired of the same old, same old. Want new representatives
in everything. It's the Springer crowd, you know those Eskimos and
Transexuals. Want a more populist movement.

Anybody else tired of subversives? I keep waiting for them to actually subvert
something. Now those priests, they were real subversives.

–
Joseph Franklyn McElroy
Cor[porat]e [Per]form[ance] Art[ist]

Hi Joseph,

I think that Springer is empty & you are not part of that ilk, do not accept
that label - although if you are a transexual, furtherfield is willing to
promote your gender's agenda… via its transgressive section. Of course
others are welcome to submit if they are interested.


http://www.furtherfield.org/transgressions.html

marc

>
> Quoting "t.whid" <[email protected]>:
>
> >
> > anyway, pat helped invent the keywords, he should be able to use 'em.
> >
> >
>
> There is a new bill in congress, one year term limits on keywords. Its
part of
> the soft money finance reform package.
>
> It seems everybody is tired of the same old, same old. Want new
representatives
> in everything. It's the Springer crowd, you know those Eskimos and
> Transexuals. Want a more populist movement.
>
> Anybody else tired of subversives? I keep waiting for them to actually
subvert
> something. Now those priests, they were real subversives.
>
> –
> Joseph Franklyn McElroy
> Cor[porat]e [Per]form[ance] Art[ist]T
> Take the survey they are all talking about…
> http://www.electrichands.com/genius2000
> Electric Hands, Inc
> 212.255.4527
> www.electrichands.com
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> ————————————————-
> This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
>
> + i am afraid dave
> -> Rhizome.org
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php3
>

shucks!

Come round & play in my igloo anytime…

marc




> Quoting furtherfield <[email protected]>:
>
> > Hi Joseph,
> >
> > I think that Springer is empty & you are not part of that ilk, do not
> > accept
> > that label - although if you are a transexual, furtherfield is willing
to
> > promote your gender's agenda… via its transgressive section. Of course
> > others are welcome to submit if they are interested.
> >
> >
> > http://www.furtherfield.org/transgressions.html
>
>
> I didn't think Eskimos were part of that crowd, but Patrick Lichty sure
lumped
> them togethor. So I will stand with the Eskimos.
>
> Or be proud to stand on any line you are standing on.
>
> –
> Joseph Franklyn McElroy
> Cor[porat]e [Per]form[ance] Art[ist]T
> Take the survey they are all talking about…
> http://www.electrichands.com/genius2000
> Electric Hands, Inc
> 212.255.4527
> www.electrichands.com
> [email protected]
>
>
> ————————————————-
> This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
>
> + i am afraid dave
> -> Rhizome.org
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php3
>

Quoting Patrick Lichty

> What's going on is the crank du jour vis-a-vis rhizome raw. For years, we
> have our various 'fringes' that intentionally inject noise into the system
> for purposes of intellectual colonization (NN, Max, Josh, Joseph) and
> control of the conversation. Pretty simple tactic, and very effective.
>

Sorry, the agenda is not control of the conversation. It is an identity
distribution network, outside of traditional channels. It requires an
intuitive understanding of the network, working the flow to create
introductions and relationships, both online and offline. Some people work it
by generating algorythms, others use search and include methods, others use a
strategy of engage, converse, confuse, and present. Because such strategies
requires a constant flow of information, by necessity, creative writing, stream
of consciousness, poems, jokes, become part of the mix. In is similar to a
branding strategy, yet different in that a consistent message is not part of
the plan.

Your career strategy is effective in that you will build a respected reputation
(as is evident by other career oriented people's responses to you), however it
will be a relatively small community. I, on the other hand, exist for the home
run, and accept the great risk that I will die a complete failure (as defined
by society … money, power, and fame). However, I also have complete freedom
to pursue any experience that I wish, from being CEO, construction worker,
living in a tent, public sex, flying to Japan for dinner with the guy who
brought Reagan to Japan.

You might try to declare that you have this freedom as an 'Artist', but you
don't. You have pursued a career, this means you have to fit within the
confines of acceptable behavior - you sacrifice freedom for security. You and
your compadres build little fortresses of intellectual thought, thinking you
are finding meaning, when it is just protection for your reputation, your
career.

I think your fortresses are silly, easily broken down, and soon to be
dismantled by the next fortress builder down the line. On the other hand,
every once in a while, VERY infrequently, one of you people who give up freedom
find a nugget of limited value, that does create something useful. So I am
glad there is a bunch of you doing the hard boring work, keeping the little
gears running. So I don't have to do it.

–
Joseph Franklyn McElroy
Cor[porat]e [Per]form[ance] Art[ist]

—– Original Message —–
From: Joseph Franklyn McElroy Cor[porat]e [Per]form[ance] Art[ist]

> Sorry, the agenda is not control of the conversation. It is an identity
> distribution network, outside of traditional channels … such strategies
> requires a constant flow of information, by necessity, creative writing,
stream
> of consciousness, poems, jokes, become part of the mix. In is similar
to a
> branding strategy, yet different in that a consistent message is not part
of
> the plan.
>
> Your career strategy is effective in that you will build a respected
reputation
> … I, on the other hand, exist for the home run, and accept the great
risk that I will die a complete failure (as >defined by society … money,
power, and fame).
>
> You and
> your compadres build little fortresses of intellectual thought, thinking
you
> are finding meaning, when it is just protection for your reputation, your
> career.

Taken at face value, it is nice to see Joseph explain his branding strategy,
even if he has to do it in opposition to everyone else. On the other hand,
perhaps this is more of the same.
What other channels are used for this strategy? If there is a widespread use
of media, if this is going on in places other than Rhizome RAW, then maybe.
I guess my last question would be, is this place a theatre or a lecture
hall?
Ivan

> > Your career strategy is effective in that you will build a respected
reputation… I, on the other hand, exist for the home run, and accept the
great risk that I will die a complete failure (as defined by society …
money, power, and fame)."

My apologies for sounding anything in the negative, but I feel that this has
gotten a little personal.

Sure, the Lichty persona has has a very methodical approach to bulding a
reputation that increases the potential for the big 'brass ring', which I
find is a myth more and more as I go on. But then again, that's assuming
that I'm operating on an academic model, which I'm not. In my own way, I'm
ever out on the edge, facing imminent disaster every year. Money (where?)
power (huh?) fame (maybe a little, but nowhere close to justify stardom) are
only side effects to the real trajectory of following my passions for new
media art and helping everyone I can while I'm 'doing my thing'.

But that's the Lichty persona. Tip of the iceberg, and the only 'me' this
list will see as 'me'.

"You and your compadres build little fortresses of intellectual thought,
thinking you are finding meaning, when it is just protection for your
reputation, your career."

That sounds like the usual rock throwing at academia and art world ivory
towers, but the amusement here is that those rocks are being thrown at a
hologram. Lichty might have something of a reputation, but he has no career
to speak of. The truth is there is no net, no backup plan, no golden
parachute, no cushy academic job, merely breakneck pursuit of the muse while
continually kicking Mammon out of the loft, albeit in a rather
academic-sounding mode.

Lichty's not a lumbering institutional dinosaur, regardless of appearance.
He's a mammal trying to avoid getting stepped on my the dinos, a chimera
that flickers and morphs however he has to to get the work that the muse
compells him to do. There is no option, it's like driving a motorcycle in a
forest with the throttle stuck open, dodging trees.

I've been doing this twelve years, at least as Lichty.

But it's really ironic when people throw stones at the hologram.
That's not condescending, that's merely the observation of an artist
watching how people react to his facets.

It is an identity distribution strategy. If it were a branding strategy, you
would know what or whom to buy, and I would have something or some idea I was
consistently trying to sell. Those who use this forum as a lecture hall are
selling their ideas to see how they fly. For the most part they sell badly and
don't have a coherent brand strategy. And I don't see where a lecture hall and
theatre are really any different.

>if he has to do it in opposition to everyone else.

This is funny, since when did Ivan Pope become everyone else?

–
Joseph Franklyn McElroy
Cor[porat]e [Per]form[ance] Art[ist]

Quoting Patrick Lichty <[email protected]>:

> My apologies for sounding anything in the negative, but I feel that this
> has gotten a little personal.

from previous emails, Quoting Patrick Lichty <[email protected]>:

> "And lastly, in regards to his request to know what Nino has "exactly …
> done or accomplished", I'd ask that he consider what his reaction would be
> if that question were aimed at himself. "

> "McElroy is our resident Transsexual Nazi Eskimo who's
> cheating on her husband with a 57 Plymouth, "

Don't cry on my shoulder, you started the attacking, you are a hypocrit who is
dancing between bemoaning a lack of control of the non-academic masses and
appeasing the alternative powers-that-be that read the list.

>In my own way, I'm
>ever out on the edge, facing imminent disaster every year. Money (where?)
>power (huh?) fame (maybe a little, but nowhere close to justify stardom) are

Oh pleasseeee, stop with the sympathy shit. Everybody has money problems,
including the millionaire next door. I tell you what, if you really are about
to lose your house, I will help you to not lose it. Now, everybody reading
this…do I get sympathy points? Please, I really want sympathy points! It will
help my career.

> But it's really ironic when people throw stones at the hologram.
> That's not condescending, that's merely the observation of an artist
> watching how people react to his facets.

So putting out stimuli and observing reactions is part of your artistic
forte…much like writing a little paragraph about cupcakes and watching it
snowball in this discussion…do you really think that academic approach to
research and discovery is the only and best way? You throw more stones than I
can carry.

And since your standard practice seems to be to claim some sort of prescience,
I hereby proclaim that all statements made by any party that in anyway imply
the phrase "I knew that would happen" are hereby null and void.

If, indeed, you have such foresight, please have it dated and notarized and
sent by mail to a registered party for examination at the time you wish to make
your prescient statements.

-
Joseph Franklyn McElroy
Cor[porat]e [Per]form[ance] Art[ist]

>
>>if he has to do it in opposition to everyone else.
>
>This is funny, since when did Ivan Pope become everyone else?
>

imo you put yourself in opposition to almost everyone else. i agree
with ivan pope, you never generously agree with anyone. you use your
knowledge as a blunt object.

[how can i frame my next comment in a constructive way? can't really,
please understand it's expressed with only the best of intentions]

your performance on this list doesn't need an explanation (and i for
one was a bit insulted by it), i think i can safely speak for the
majority when i say we're mostly bored of this sort of thing; having
watched different personalities come and go over the years, it's a
bit 1998. the only one that turned out to be interesting is NN, and
that's coz NN is so damn rigorous and unstoppable. (meiko and ryu are
my all time favorites though.)
–
<twhid>
http://www.mteww.com
</twhid>

Quoting "t.whid" <[email protected]>:

>
>
> imo you put yourself in opposition to almost everyone else. i agree
> with ivan pope, you never generously agree with anyone. you use your
> knowledge as a blunt object.


If I respond to you, are you going to call my work "worse than amature" and run
away again? To the point, I have agreed with Jess, Max, Mark, Karanika, among
others. I even publicly apologized to Jess Loseby when she demonstated how
incorrect I was. Recently, I even agreed in part with Eryk on his Portrait. I
don't have a problem with conversations and idea exchange, however I have a
problem with you repressed cowboys who try to pass off your male agression and
ego and personal opinion as terms of intellectual banter. And then run off and
hide when confronted with the brutal honesty of what you are doing and not
doing.


>
> [how can i frame my next comment in a constructive way? can't really,
> please understand it's expressed with only the best of intentions]
>

You can't, because you are just pissed off and want to make me look bad,
without looking bad to the people reading this list. You are no more noble than
the next motherfucker, so stop playing the saint.


> your performance on this list doesn't need an explanation (and i for
> one was a bit insulted by it), i think i can safely speak for the
> majority when i say we're mostly bored of this sort of thing; having
> watched different personalities come and go over the years, it's a
> bit 1998. the only one that turned out to be interesting is NN, and
> that's coz NN is so damn rigorous and unstoppable. (meiko and ryu are
> my all time favorites though.)


Aren't you witty? I bet you wrote that with semi-closed lids and a languid
cigarette hanging from your lips. What do you think would be constructive
about a personal opinion that is derisive. Here is a personal opinion of mine,
why don't you work out more? Your body seems more 1950's middle age than
current. (Yea, I know, I look fat too - but I work out) As for NN, etc - I have
no desire to be a perpetual online personality constantly plaguing the lists, I
come and go for various learning, experimentation, and distribution purposes.
Check me out in the Usenet archives, circa 1995. Or the Source, circa 1985 (I
had the cute name Eternal Champion). Or Compuserve, circa 1992. Maybe even
Usenet circa 1981.

Now throw your pebbles and run.

BTW - is it now my turn to feel like you don't respect me? I feel so bad. And I
thought you liked me! Sob.

> –

–
Joseph Franklyn McElroy
Cor[porat]e [Per]form[ance] Art[ist]

To the point, I have agreed with Jess, Max, Mark, Karanika, among
> others. I even publicly apologized to Jess Loseby when she demonstated how
> incorrect I was.
true and much appreciated
…but boys, don't bring me into this. I have had enough bickering round
my kitchen table tonight at home.
J.

In a message dated 5/31/2002 8:46:41 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:


> the only one that turned out to be interesting is NN

Glaring omission being Max Herman, plus NN said before you're a dipshit.

Cupcake!

Max Herman
genius2000.net


++

> I
> come and go for various learning, experimentation,
> and distribution purposes

unfortunately, there seems to be some people who
would rather you not do that as well( and this is from
personal experience ). someone who has such
motivation is often a threat to people.

-josh


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

Hi Josh,

I agree with you there, and I have also had some personal experience of this
also. There is a certain breed person who will pretend to be your friend
whilst actively trying to jeopardize projects that you are doing because it
threatens their own patch, or they just do not like what you are up to for
their own warped personal reasons. Luckily many people have become
unofficially aware of this and have also experienced such behavior from this
individual. But it has been very tough for us, for this individual is into
controlling a lot of artists under the guise of supporting them and has a
lot of contacts high up. All is beginning to settle now though…phew, some
people are just soooo sad. It's a kind of professional jealousy plus basic
survival rivalry.

marc


>
> > I
> > come and go for various learning, experimentation,
> > and distribution purposes
>
> unfortunately, there seems to be some people who
> would rather you not do that as well( and this is from
> personal experience ). someone who has such
> motivation is often a threat to people.
>
> -josh
>
>
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Quoting josh zeidner <[email protected]>:

>
> > I
> > come and go for various learning, experimentation,
> > and distribution purposes
>
> unfortunately, there seems to be some people who
> would rather you not do that as well( and this is from
> personal experience ). someone who has such
> motivation is often a threat to people.
>

I was over in artforum bashing heads with some mathematician sunday painters
and got into a fight because they don't like people who don't analyse by the
rules. Or who don't follow a scientific process or who don't use academic
models of discussion.

I realized their arguments sounded very familiar. If someone doesn't follow
the rules they must be stupid, if they do understand the rules but don't follow
them they must be crazy.

Like mathematics is based upon axioms, which are just universally recognized
assumptions, Art theory is a bunch of opinions. People like to argue by
pointing to the the text of their favorite book. If you don't do the same, you
must be stupid or crazy.

Experimentation can take many forms, and can be intuitive instead of analytical
in nature. If the goal is not to find truth, financial success, and the
american way, but instead, experience, a rhizome of thought, a tree with
branches and roots, no beginning and no end, freedom, empathy, emotions,
changes of heart, broadening of the mind, then linear, purely logical thinking
and professional behavior is not condusive to the ends.

–
Joseph Franklyn McElroy
Cor[porat]e [Per]form[ance] Art[ist]