Hi, I am making an animation of the war in colombia and would like to include about 20 logos from transnationals. Is this legal - protected by the fact that its "art" or not? If not - can I protect myself by altering the logo - for example changing a letter?
Do these companies care anyway? Probably depends on extent of coverage?
I remember about a year ago the case of an art group and their being sued for their use of the NIKE logo - I rember that they won the case, but dont remember the details- what was their name?
thanks, Vanessa
Can company logos be used in artwork?
-
Type: discussion
Comments
I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.
On 25 Nov 2004, at 20:21, patadeperro wrote:
> Hi, I am making an animation of the war in colombia and would like to
> include about 20 logos from transnationals. Is this legal -
No. The logos are trademarks and you are using them without permission.
> protected by the fact that its "art" or not?
No. There's no defense of using something for art.
> If not - can I protect myself by altering the logo - for example
> changing a letter?
No. It's still a derivative work of the logo.
> Do these companies care anyway?
Yes. They are getting increasingly control-freaky about this kind of
thing. :-(
> Probably depends on extent of coverage?
It depends on whether their lawyers see it.
> I remember about a year ago the case of an art group and their being
> sued for their use of the NIKE logo - I rember that they won the
> case, but dont remember the details- what was their name?
http://www.0100101110101101.org/texts/nike_prelease4-en.html
I think it depends on whether you can afford the time and the costs of
defending a lawsuit.rhiz
- Rob.
I am not a lawyer either but I am an artist.
Should local law relegate ones artistic practice?
They can desensitize the masses with their multi-million dollar imagery and
ya know I get influenced by it sometimes. Does Nike have a patent on the
degree of curve in the swoosh? The corporate world loves when the consumers
begin to self censor and not question their authority.
This is just my opinion, but, I think you need to be a bit more anarchist
about your project and not worry about it.
There is an artist out in LA that put together a dvd with 5000 vector logos
and distributed 100 of them for free as art.
Good luck with your project.
Cheers,
Lee
On 11/25/04 4:09 PM, "Rob Myers" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.
>
> On 25 Nov 2004, at 20:21, patadeperro wrote:
>
>> Hi, I am making an animation of the war in colombia and would like to
>> include about 20 logos from transnationals. Is this legal -
>
> No. The logos are trademarks and you are using them without permission.
>
>> protected by the fact that its "art" or not?
>
> No. There's no defense of using something for art.
>
>> If not - can I protect myself by altering the logo - for example
>> changing a letter?
>
> No. It's still a derivative work of the logo.
>
>> Do these companies care anyway?
>
> Yes. They are getting increasingly control-freaky about this kind of
> thing. :-(
>
>> Probably depends on extent of coverage?
>
> It depends on whether their lawyers see it.
>
>> I remember about a year ago the case of an art group and their being
>> sued for their use of the NIKE logo - I rember that they won the
>> case, but dont remember the details- what was their name?
>
> http://www.0100101110101101.org/texts/nike_prelease4-en.html
>
> I think it depends on whether you can afford the time and the costs of
> defending a lawsuit.rhiz
>
> - Rob.
>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
go watch lawyer jeff cunard's lecture on sampling and fair use:
http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/itc/soa/dmc/jeffrey_cunard/
As far as fair use is concerned, parody is a well-protected category. Are
you using the logos for a form of parody? If so you most likely have
nothing to worry about. If you are using them for satire, however, things
get more complex. But I would advise that you make the artwork regardless
of these concerns–the law is changing and very bizarre right now. Make
the work, worry about the other crap later…
cheers,
joy
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Lee Wells wrote:
> I am not a lawyer either but I am an artist.
>
> Should local law relegate ones artistic practice?
> They can desensitize the masses with their multi-million dollar imagery and
> ya know I get influenced by it sometimes. Does Nike have a patent on the
> degree of curve in the swoosh? The corporate world loves when the consumers
> begin to self censor and not question their authority.
>
> This is just my opinion, but, I think you need to be a bit more anarchist
> about your project and not worry about it.
>
> There is an artist out in LA that put together a dvd with 5000 vector logos
> and distributed 100 of them for free as art.
>
>
> Good luck with your project.
> Cheers,
> Lee
>
>
>
> On 11/25/04 4:09 PM, "Rob Myers" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.
>>
>> On 25 Nov 2004, at 20:21, patadeperro wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, I am making an animation of the war in colombia and would like to
>>> include about 20 logos from transnationals. Is this legal -
>>
>> No. The logos are trademarks and you are using them without permission.
>>
>>> protected by the fact that its "art" or not?
>>
>> No. There's no defense of using something for art.
>>
>>> If not - can I protect myself by altering the logo - for example
>>> changing a letter?
>>
>> No. It's still a derivative work of the logo.
>>
>>> Do these companies care anyway?
>>
>> Yes. They are getting increasingly control-freaky about this kind of
>> thing. :-(
>>
>>> Probably depends on extent of coverage?
>>
>> It depends on whether their lawyers see it.
>>
>>> I remember about a year ago the case of an art group and their being
>>> sued for their use of the NIKE logo - I rember that they won the
>>> case, but dont remember the details- what was their name?
>>
>> http://www.0100101110101101.org/texts/nike_prelease4-en.html
>>
>> I think it depends on whether you can afford the time and the costs of
>> defending a lawsuit.rhiz
>>
>> - Rob.
>>
>> +
>> -> post: [email protected]
>> -> questions: [email protected]
>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
>> +
>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>>
>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
Criticism is also mentioned in the fair use doctrine. However, the term
"fair use" is most often applied to copyright law. Trademarks are
covered separately. Trademark law has something called the Lanham Act
and from what I understand, the fair use provisions in trademark law are
mainly there to prevent people from trademarking stupid things like
"water" in a way that no-one would be able to use the term "water"
without infringing. Fair use in trademark law is very complicated and
not as well established as fair use in copyright law. Judgements are
quite inconsistant.
Pall
Joy Garnett wrote:
> go watch lawyer jeff cunard's lecture on sampling and fair use:
>
> http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/itc/soa/dmc/jeffrey_cunard/
>
> As far as fair use is concerned, parody is a well-protected category.
> Are you using the logos for a form of parody? If so you most likely have
> nothing to worry about. If you are using them for satire, however,
> things get more complex. But I would advise that you make the artwork
> regardless of these concerns–the law is changing and very bizarre right
> now. Make the work, worry about the other crap later…
>
> cheers,
> joy
>
>
>
> On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Lee Wells wrote:
>
>> I am not a lawyer either but I am an artist.
>>
>> Should local law relegate ones artistic practice?
>> They can desensitize the masses with their multi-million dollar
>> imagery and
>> ya know I get influenced by it sometimes. Does Nike have a patent on the
>> degree of curve in the swoosh? The corporate world loves when the
>> consumers
>> begin to self censor and not question their authority.
>>
>> This is just my opinion, but, I think you need to be a bit more anarchist
>> about your project and not worry about it.
>>
>> There is an artist out in LA that put together a dvd with 5000 vector
>> logos
>> and distributed 100 of them for free as art.
>>
>>
>> Good luck with your project.
>> Cheers,
>> Lee
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/25/04 4:09 PM, "Rob Myers" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.
>>>
>>> On 25 Nov 2004, at 20:21, patadeperro wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi, I am making an animation of the war in colombia and would like to
>>>> include about 20 logos from transnationals. Is this legal -
>>>
>>>
>>> No. The logos are trademarks and you are using them without permission.
>>>
>>>> protected by the fact that its "art" or not?
>>>
>>>
>>> No. There's no defense of using something for art.
>>>
>>>> If not - can I protect myself by altering the logo - for example
>>>> changing a letter?
>>>
>>>
>>> No. It's still a derivative work of the logo.
>>>
>>>> Do these companies care anyway?
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes. They are getting increasingly control-freaky about this kind of
>>> thing. :-(
>>>
>>>> Probably depends on extent of coverage?
>>>
>>>
>>> It depends on whether their lawyers see it.
>>>
>>>> I remember about a year ago the case of an art group and their being
>>>> sued for their use of the NIKE logo - I rember that they won the
>>>> case, but dont remember the details- what was their name?
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.0100101110101101.org/texts/nike_prelease4-en.html
>>>
>>> I think it depends on whether you can afford the time and the costs of
>>> defending a lawsuit.rhiz
>>>
>>> - Rob.
>>>
>>> +
>>> -> post: [email protected]
>>> -> questions: [email protected]
>>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>>> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
>>> +
>>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>>> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>>>
>>
>> +
>> -> post: [email protected]
>> -> questions: [email protected]
>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
>> +
>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>>
>>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
–
_______________________________
Pall Thayer
artist/teacher
http://www.this.is/pallit
http://pallit.lhi.is/panse
_______________________________
My impression from all the legal stuff I have seen and read is
that Logos and Trademarks were easier to use and that trademark
law was less restrictive than copyright law. I remember tales of
several people getting nasty letters but nothing happened after
that. If you go and listen to the Jeff Cunard lecture he pretty
much says that and that is what my research seems to indicate.
This is one of the those things I follow the goings on in both
the US and Canada as I am creatively active in both countries.
Jeff Cunard brought up an interesting point that there maybe a
need to look into the laws of other countries if one acts in a
creative fashion on the net, as one's work is sort of international
already if you plan to put it up on the web and make it so.
I would really like to hear from anyone who is active and exploring
these areas. Right now I know that some the most avid readers of our
Bill of Rights website, http://www.cruzrights.org are in Cairo, Egypt.
So that took me by surprise and that refers to American Law and not
more global artistic issues.
Have Fun,
Sends Steve
> I am not a lawyer either but I am an artist.
>
> Should local law relegate ones artistic practice?
> They can desensitize the masses with their multi-million dollar imagery
> and
> ya know I get influenced by it sometimes. Does Nike have a patent on the
> degree of curve in the swoosh? The corporate world loves when the
> consumers
> begin to self censor and not question their authority.
>
> This is just my opinion, but, I think you need to be a bit more anarchist
> about your project and not worry about it.
>
> There is an artist out in LA that put together a dvd with 5000 vector
> logos
> and distributed 100 of them for free as art.
>
>
> Good luck with your project.
> Cheers,
> Lee
>
>
>
> On 11/25/04 4:09 PM, "Rob Myers" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.
>>
>> On 25 Nov 2004, at 20:21, patadeperro wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, I am making an animation of the war in colombia and would like to
>>> include about 20 logos from transnationals. Is this legal -
>>
>> No. The logos are trademarks and you are using them without permission.
>>
>>> protected by the fact that its "art" or not?
>>
>> No. There's no defense of using something for art.
>>
>>> If not - can I protect myself by altering the logo - for example
>>> changing a letter?
>>
>> No. It's still a derivative work of the logo.
>>
>>> Do these companies care anyway?
>>
>> Yes. They are getting increasingly control-freaky about this kind of
>> thing. :-(
>>
>>> Probably depends on extent of coverage?
>>
>> It depends on whether their lawyers see it.
>>
>>> I remember about a year ago the case of an art group and their being
>>> sued for their use of the NIKE logo - I rember that they won the
>>> case, but dont remember the details- what was their name?
>>
>> http://www.0100101110101101.org/texts/nike_prelease4-en.html
>>
>> I think it depends on whether you can afford the time and the costs of
>> defending a lawsuit.rhiz
>>
>> - Rob.
>>
>> +
>> -> post: [email protected]
>> -> questions: [email protected]
>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
>> +
>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>>
>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
> As far as fair use is concerned, parody is a well-protected category.
> Are you using the logos for a form of parody? If so you most likely
> have nothing to worry about. If you are using them for satire,
> however, things get more complex. But I would advise that you make the
> artwork regardless of these concerns–the law is changing and very
> bizarre right now. Make the work, worry about the other crap later…
>
*sat
And of course you can have a lot of fun when the "other crap" comes along. For example, take a look at what happened when McDonald's pursued legal action against Prizm's font Capitalis Pirata:
http://www.plazm.com/fonts/downloads/
Cheers,
Brandon
Banner Art Collective
http://bannerart.org/
——-Original Message——-
> From: "Joy Garnett" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Can company logos be used in artwork?
> Sent: Nov 25 2004 18:58:08
>
> go watch lawyer jeff cunard's lecture on sampling and fair use:
>
> http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/itc/soa/dmc/jeffrey_cunard/[1]
>
> As far as fair use is concerned, parody is a well-protected category. Are
> you using the logos for a form of parody? If so you most likely have
> nothing to worry about. If you are using them for satire, however, things
> get more complex. But I would advise that you make the artwork regardless
> of these concerns–the law is changing and very bizarre right now. Make
> the work, worry about the other crap later…
>
> cheers,
> joy
>
And of course you can have a lot of fun when the "other crap" comes along. For example, take a look at what happened when McDonald's pursued legal action against Prizm's font Capitalis Pirata:
http://www.plazm.com/fonts/downloads/
Cheers,
Brandon
Banner Art Collective
http://bannerart.org/
——-Original Message——-
> From: "Joy Garnett" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Can company logos be used in artwork?
> Sent: Nov 25 2004 18:58:08
>
> go watch lawyer jeff cunard's lecture on sampling and fair use:
>
> http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/itc/soa/dmc/jeffrey_cunard/[1]
>
> As far as fair use is concerned, parody is a well-protected category. Are
> you using the logos for a form of parody? If so you most likely have
> nothing to worry about. If you are using them for satire, however, things
> get more complex. But I would advise that you make the artwork regardless
> of these concerns–the law is changing and very bizarre right now. Make
> the work, worry about the other crap later…
>
> cheers,
> joy
>
Hello, Thank you for all answers. One more question: Are these "trademark crimes" punished by fines or jail time?
I am broke as hell and live in Colombia, so frankly as an individual I feel that suing me would be quiet a waste of time, as I own nothing and have no official salary.(povrety's benefits)
But I became concerned because we are on the verge of becoming a non profit organization - in order to get grants etc. - so as an institution we have more to loose - credibility / can be sued.
Now, I wonder, is it worth becoming a non profit if it implies that the spirit of anarchy and rebelion has to be subdued to mold itself to all the laws? How to work around this? Is it suficient to say - "This "non profit" is not accountable for content of third parties represented on this website" - or whatever the legal formula is? If it is so we could host the work of diferent "artists" (maybe I could say "An indian who lives in a nomadic tribe in the Amazon made this political animation in flash, but I dont know where he is now"
As far as being in Colombia - yes I am in Colombia, but my hosting service is in the USA - I am not shure where my residency is - I dont think that Colombian individuals will get mad at me - being politically active in Colombia is not a healthy thing, but thats another problem to deal with….and it is possibly more real then being sued. I dont know. I live in a counrty where fear keeps everybody pretty quiet, this perhpas this is also a reason why I worry, I have been conditioned so.
Hello, Thanks for all answers.
Steve I agree with you that this is defenetly an interesting subject. I have to say, I was never concerned with it much as an individual publishing content on the internet, as I know that these laws are still somewhat loose.
Yet now we are about to become a non profit - because in Colombia everything is very hard to do, there is very very little distribution and less alternative networks, so we are pretty much obliged to take this route in order to try and create an option to communicate and to try to obtain funding. But now I see that as an instutution we have to be more carefull in order to not loose credibiltity or become marginalised - which is a harsh option in a classist/censored society.
It is very sad to think that by becoming a non profit we might have to give up on anarchy and rebellion though - so I think I must find loopeholes beforehand in order for everything to be "kosher".
Perhaps the typicial " this "non profit" is not responsable for the content of work represented here by third parties" or whatever the legal terms are??? Maybe I could say that the particualr art work with the logos was made by an indian from a nomadic tribe in the amazon and I dont know where he is now"?
Another concern - as far as copyright:
There is an artist in Colombia who during the 70's and 80's copied thousands of precolombian designs and published 4 amazing books to which he owns the copyright. I have some of these on my website:
www.intermundo.org/antonio_grass.htm
Soon I will go speak to him to try and convince him to publish more online under the creative commons lisence. If he refuses he is protected by his copyright. BUT that would really anger me as the original deigns are PRECOLOMBIAN INDIGENOUS DESIGNS and so the partmony of humanity, it would be a crime for these designs not to be distributed so that the world can see this amazing art.
One more question is "trademark" crime punished by fines or jail??
Sorry so paranoid, its a colombian thing, there is alot of fear around here.
Vanessa
Vanessa,
> One more question is "trademark" crime punished by fines or jail??
> Sorry so paranoid, its a colombian thing, there is alot of fear around
> here.
You are confusing "criminal" offenses with civil ones – trademark and
copyright infringements are not "crimes" they are disagreements
that are either settled out of court or through litigation.
If you are worried about these issues in regard to a non-profit org's
status you should consult a lawyer in Columbia who specializes in
intellectual property and art law. It sounds like you are panicking. You
should also find precedents, similar artworks/animations from your
local art scene and find out if the artists ever ran into legal difficulties.
good luck!
Joy
If you're animation will be on the web make sure you have mirrors or an
ISP that won't take it down with the first cease + desist letter…
rendering any legal argument beside the point.
ryan
—– Original Message —–
From: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 8:43 PM
Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: Re: Re: Can company logos be used in artwork?
> Hello, Thank you for all answers. One more question: Are these "trademark
crimes" punished by fines or jail time?
> I am broke as hell and live in Colombia, so frankly as an individual I
feel that suing me would be quiet a waste of time, as I own nothing and have
no official salary.(povrety's benefits)
> But I became concerned because we are on the verge of becoming a non
profit organization - in order to get grants etc. - so as an institution we
have more to loose - credibility / can be sued.
> Now, I wonder, is it worth becoming a non profit if it implies that the
spirit of anarchy and rebelion has to be subdued to mold itself to all the
laws? How to work around this? Is it suficient to say - "This "non profit"
is not accountable for content of third parties represented on this
website" - or whatever the legal formula is? If it is so we could host the
work of diferent "artists" (maybe I could say "An indian who lives in a
nomadic tribe in the Amazon made this political animation in flash, but I
dont know where he is now"
>
> As far as being in Colombia - yes I am in Colombia, but my hosting service
is in the USA - I am not shure where my residency is - I dont think that
Colombian individuals will get mad at me - being politically active in
Colombia is not a healthy thing, but thats another problem to deal
with….and it is possibly more real then being sued. I dont know. I live in
a counrty where fear keeps everybody pretty quiet, this perhpas this is also
a reason why I worry, I have been conditioned so.
> MANIK
>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
Hey Manik, How did you do that? - stressful
VAnessa