> Please do not spam!! > Please do not spam!! > Please do not spam!! > Please do not spam!! > Please do not spam!! > Please do not spam!! > > http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Very interesting. I like the combinatoriums linked from the above url. But I suspect people will not want to 'submit' because it is so linked with the notion of spam, and these days, well, there's hardly anything else. What does AlphaMail_words.cgi do? And AlphaMail.cgi? And what do you do with the email addresses? These sorts of unanswered questions make this project, though very interesting, difficult to participate in and one that you hesitate to ask much about…though that might be part of the project. But it is obviously intelligent and interesting in its conception and execution.
Americans have to loop Iraq, Vladimir unsubscribed Hotmail, 1st Winston Churchill's obsession COULD be code-named, Colons of two TopOrBottomTagsOnSplits.
I'll go to the American, Archimedes monopole ACKed, Inc the President of the United States's ability COULD be formattable, Conjunctions of the second MultlineGap.
Mozilla were to mapsto Russian, Pinocchio nonobtrusive LAN, PS the President of the United States's macromedia OUGHT TO be online, Quotation Marks of the twenty-sixth Longleftrightarrow.
I'd go to copy America, IEEE skinheads CTRL, PhD the President of the United States's trademark OUGHT TO be downloadable, Apostrophes of the second MultlineGap.
I'm curious about emails like this and the people who send them.
>Tbs to tabalign The US, >Tupperware taketh TCP/IP, > the Headmaster of Eton tag telnet, > the third TagsOnLeft. > >http://spam.trashconnection.com/ >+
Went to the website, which allows one to put together meaningless words or sentences. I imagine someone who has nothing to say yet wants to appear important, a digital version of people who smear shit on walls in public toilets.
M. –
, Roman Minaev
Dear Miklos at sympatico,
when you do not understand the meaning of words or sentences, it does not mean they are meaningless. I like your comparison with the toilet inscriptions. They are sometimes only the way to think about something different than your shit. Don't be nervous about my messages. Do it like me and everyone on this list. Just delete them!
msc> I'm curious about emails like this and the people who send them.
>>Tbs to tabalign The US, >>Tupperware taketh TCP/IP, >> the Headmaster of Eton tag telnet, >> the third TagsOnLeft. >> >>http://spam.trashconnection.com/ >>+
msc> Went to the website, which allows one to put together meaningless msc> words or sentences. msc> I imagine someone who has nothing to say yet wants to appear important, msc> a digital version of people who smear shit on walls in public toilets.
what do meaning or meaningless mean? pls , examples
[email protected] wrote: > Dear Miklos at sympatico, > > when you do not understand the meaning of words or > sentences, it does not mean they are meaningless. > I like your comparison with the toilet inscriptions. They are > sometimes only the way to think about something different than your shit. > Don't be nervous about my messages. Do it like me and everyone on this > list. Just delete them! > > msc> I'm curious about emails like this and the people who send them. > > > >>>Tbs to tabalign The US, >>>Tupperware taketh TCP/IP, >>> the Headmaster of Eton tag telnet, >>> the third TagsOnLeft. >>> >>>http://spam.trashconnection.com/ >>>+ > > > > msc> Went to the website, which allows one to put together meaningless > msc> words or sentences. > msc> I imagine someone who has nothing to say yet wants to appear important, > msc> a digital version of people who smear shit on walls in public toilets. > > msc> M. > > > > – > Roman Minaev > trashconnection.com > + > -> post: [email protected] > -> questions: [email protected] > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support > + > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php > >
>Dear Miklos at sympatico, > >when you do not understand the meaning of words or >sentences, it does not mean they are meaningless.
Hi Roman,
I didn't say I don't understand them, and it's true that nothing is meaningless in the strict sense of the word, but that's pushing the limits of language tolerance. I understood patterns, found meaning in the urge and drive to communicate even if one has nothing to say, or wants the credit but doesn't want to make the effort. This is an archetype in every culture. (more later).
Meaning or lack of, could be defined as a contribution to understanding. The first line ever drawn in the sand in prehistoric times, drew "oohs" and "aahs" of wonder. 1.5 millions of years later, after billions of lines, no one cares unless there's something more, like lines as letters arranged in meaning, or drawn with skill and care as opposed to without skill or care.
So meaning and quality have to do with what they contribute.
My guess is you're playing with concepts or ideas of disruption. Disruptive in using public space and time for text which begs understanding, or contribute little or nothing constructive to the zegheist; you're disrupting established channels of communication by putting dirt in it.
Then it comes to a value judgement; is this a good thing or not? Some consider disruption good for it's own sake, but that's an unreflecting point of view, since good or bad is defined by environment and context.
>Do it like me and everyone on this list. Just delete them!
So you might be saying it's "bad"; you're placing dirt and grit in the rhizome email tube. Is it necessary or stimulating? That's something I can't judge; you saying "Just delete them!" implies that you think it might be stimulating to someone so others should ignore it.
Why it bugs me; let's say I'm going to send you an email saying you won lots of money, and if you reply I will really send you a million dollars. But for two months previously I'll send you meaningless emails that you just get in the habit of deleting. When the important email comes in, you'll delete it like the others, simply out of habit and expectation, and so you'll miss your chance at the prize.
Which suggests that clarity is important.
Miklos
>I like your comparison with the toilet inscriptions. They are >sometimes only the way to think about something different than your shit. >Don't be nervous about my messages. Do it like me and everyone on this >list. Just delete them! > >msc> I'm curious about emails like this and the people who send them. > > >>>Tbs to tabalign The US, >>>Tupperware taketh TCP/IP, >>> the Headmaster of Eton tag telnet, >>> the third TagsOnLeft. >>> >>>http://spam.trashconnection.com/ >>>+ > > >msc> Went to the website, which allows one to put together meaningless >msc> words or sentences. >msc> I imagine someone who has nothing to say yet wants to appear important, >msc> a digital version of people who smear shit on walls in public toilets. > >msc> M. > > > >– >Roman Minaev >trashconnection.com
–
Miklos Legrady 310 Bathurst st. Toronto ON. M5T 2S3 416-203-1846 647-292-1846 http://www.mikidot.com
i found much more interesting to read please do not spam art
[email protected] wrote: >> Dear Miklos at sympatico, >> >> when you do not understand the meaning of words or >> sentences, it does not mean they are meaningless. > > > Hi Roman, > > I didn't say I don't understand them, and it's true that nothing is > meaningless in the strict sense of the word, but that's pushing the > limits of language tolerance. I understood patterns, found meaning in > the urge and drive to communicate even if one has nothing to say, or > wants the credit but doesn't want to make the effort. This is an > archetype in every culture. (more later). > > Meaning or lack of, could be defined as a contribution to > understanding. The first line ever drawn in the sand in prehistoric > times, drew "oohs" and "aahs" of wonder. 1.5 millions of years later, > after billions of lines, no one cares unless there's something more, > like lines as letters arranged in meaning, or drawn with skill and care > as opposed to without skill or care. > > So meaning and quality have to do with what they contribute. > > My guess is you're playing with concepts or ideas of disruption. > Disruptive in using public space and time for text which begs > understanding, or contribute little or nothing constructive to the > zegheist; you're disrupting established channels of communication by > putting dirt in it. > > Then it comes to a value judgement; is this a good thing or not? Some > consider disruption good for it's own sake, but that's an unreflecting > point of view, since good or bad is defined by environment and context. > >> Do it like me and everyone on this list. Just delete them! > > > So you might be saying it's "bad"; you're placing dirt and grit in the > rhizome email tube. Is it necessary or stimulating? That's something I > can't judge; you saying "Just delete them!" implies that you think it > might be stimulating to someone so others should ignore it. > > Why it bugs me; let's say I'm going to send you an email saying you won > lots of money, and if you reply I will really send you a million > dollars. But for two months previously I'll send you meaningless emails > that you just get in the habit of deleting. When the important email > comes in, you'll delete it like the others, simply out of habit and > expectation, and so you'll miss your chance at the prize. > > Which suggests that clarity is important. > > Miklos > > >> I like your comparison with the toilet inscriptions. They are >> sometimes only the way to think about something different than your shit. >> Don't be nervous about my messages. Do it like me and everyone on this >> list. Just delete them! >> >> msc> I'm curious about emails like this and the people who send them. >> >> >>>> Tbs to tabalign The US, >>>> Tupperware taketh TCP/IP, >>>> the Headmaster of Eton tag telnet, >>>> the third TagsOnLeft. >>>> >>>> http://spam.trashconnection.com/ >>>> + >> >> >> >> msc> Went to the website, which allows one to put together meaningless >> msc> words or sentences. >> msc> I imagine someone who has nothing to say yet wants to appear >> important, >> msc> a digital version of people who smear shit on walls in public >> toilets. >> >> msc> M. >> >> >> >> – >> Roman Minaev >> trashconnection.com > > >
, Roman Minaev
Hello Miklos and Matthew,
PLEASE DO NOT SPAM ART is an experimental work with an effort to provoke an art discource, despite the content of messages. Unfortunately you guys don't pay attention to the meaning of spam or finally to the meaning of this kind of art. On the one hand you are accustomed to be tolerant, on the other hand you avoid to be disturbed. This is a very comfortable position as product of the consumer society. You feel confused, when something forces you to confront with appearances, which do not intertain you.
I am sorry.
– Roman Minaev trashconnection.com
, Roman Minaev
U.s.a. unboldmath , UNESCO unapologetically UI, USA ultra USED TO undeletable, Uparrow.
is something meaningless when its information measure is maximal, which is to say, when it's completely random? if it is completely random, then intended meaning is not present. though the randomness itself may be intended, and the intention of intended total randomness intended, etc.
of course, whether complete randomness is attainable is a moot point.
in shannonian information theory, there is the notion of being able to measure the amount of information in a message. but that is not a measure of meaning. it is a measure of the amount of uncertainty present in the message. for instance, consider a message that consists of a million ones. long message, not much information. in fact you already have enough information to reconstruct it with complete certainty. now consider a message that consists of a million random zeros or ones. such messages cannot be compressed with winzip or stuffit or whatever. whereas the first message compresses down to almost nothing. the more a message can be compressed, the less information it contains.
ja
ps: received work from turkey's ozcan turkmen the other day. he is a programmer-poet. he is working out a notion of "entropic poetry". very interestin stuff. pss: should you happen across the princeton encyclopedia of poetry and poetics, have a look at the article on 'semantics and poetry' by philip wheelright. psss: and here is the original shannon: http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/ms/what/shannonday/paper.html
in shannonian information theory, there is the notion of being able to measure the amount of information in a message. but that is not a measure of meaning. it is a measure of the amount of uncertainty present in the message. for instance, consider a message that consists of a million ones. long message, not much information. in fact you already have enough information to reconstruct it with complete certainty. now consider a message that consists of a million random zeros or ones. such messages cannot be compressed with winzip or stuffit or whatever. whereas the first message compresses down to almost nothing. the more a message can be compressed, the less information it contains.
ja
——- "the more a message can be compressed, the less information it contains."
Hm. Thank you for that. Apart from the Shannon paper being a bit too compressed for me, or because of that, for this thesis to be true we would need , i think:
1 the message to be a singular isolated event
2 the fictional limits, abstract cases, of a million zero's as a message and a million patternless repetitions of 1 or zero as a message
3.those fictional messages to be confined to that and only that to avoid the possibilities mentioned in point 4. However they can only become messages if they are enlarged by the fact of being messages, that is they happen as a message, which implies they happen somewhere, a place or places including the possibility mentioned in point 4.
4. because only then can you disregard the amount of information that could be and mostly is present in compressions of compressions (of …) as not contradicting the thesis because in such cases a more compressed message can easily be shown to trigger a higher amount of information to be sent (e. g. exactly a million zeros could be the key to understand a tonload of information encrypted a bit further on (algorhitmic encryption being the key to compression) or, a better example perhaps, more in the spirit of true calculation, the case of a few 1's at exactly those locations where in the receiving end or in decompressioning it it would contain more information than a similarly diversified message, similarly near to the limit of absolute diversification, because it would recursively decompress the compressions it contains.
To come back to the matter at hand, however, this particular chain of message events: in 'The Fold', Gilles Deleuze devotes special attention to the Leibniz idea that souls ('monads' in his terms) who are damned are, however pitifull for them, the condition for other souls to be able to increase their zones of clarity. In the Leibniz system this can be so because every monad contains the whole of the universe inside its 'folds' but it only has a limited zone of clarity and a vast region of what is called a 'fuscum subnegrum', its dark zone. A damned soul is eternally damned because it continually choses for the one thing that is its greatest point of desire:its whole universe is directed, pointed to its hatred of God. This ultimate obsession is the only thing that constitutes this soul's zone of clarity and because of the eternal divide of the constant amount of information that is the case in the Leibniz system, these poor souls leave other souls more 'room' for expansion of their zones of clarity.
You see how, if interpreted along similar lines, replacing religiously connotated parameters with artistic ones if you feel that is required, Roman is really doing us all a favor by continually sending these messages, their _meaning_ being reduced by their own intent, but perhaps not their amount of information, however obsessive they might be (or how adequate an answer to a entirely different process that is not clear to me), and however futile they might seem with our finger hovering over the delete key from the instant we read PLEASE, how he in fact creates for us a sublime moment of clarity each time we actually press the delete key, bringing perhaps the only true moment of clarity in our seemingly endless consumption of messages loaded with valuable information on the shady starlit fields of our arts. The next moment always sheds a light on the previous, and vica versa. To calculate (subtract, add)information, information is needed. And time.
In this context, by the way, Leibniz often stressed the fictional nature of any calculation, which might be surprising to some, coming from this great advocate of the Enlightment. History mostly compresses its leading figures beyond repair for day to day decompression utils.
So, to return the favor: the more easily a message can be deleted, the more room we have for decompressing others, hence the more information it contains (virtually).
A thesis that might (only) hold for the split second before you hit delete on it.
ps: received work from turkey's ozcan turkmen the other day. he is a programmer-poet. he is working out a notion of "entropic poetry". very interestin stuff.
—– Would you have an URL on him, decompressable to less Turkish and more English than what Google shows?
> >is something meaningless when its information measure is > maximal, which is > >to say, when it's completely random? > > > No, because random information can be useful. Meaningful means > useful; meaning is related to and capable of changing aspects of your > personal reality. That someone is now eating a sardine in Papua New > Guinia is probably not meaningful to me, except in so far as I can > use it as an example. It's information but meaningless to me. > Meaning is always related to someone to whom it has meaning. > Miklos Legrady
Sounds reasonable. I wonder if the term 'meaning' is used with any precision in AI study of natural language or in contemporary linguistics? It's such a loose goose in common parlance. It has all sorts of meanings. That which is significant. Or useful, as you say. Or that which is under semantic interpretation. Or that which is intended. Or that which was not intended but is nonetheless signified or consequent. There are at least two types of meaning (denotative and connotative).
It seems that part of the difficulty of semantics is that meaning is not solely something that arises from interpretation but that texts, for instance, can imply or necessitate some meanings yet be interpretable concerning others.
> 4. because only then can you disregard the amount of information > that could > be and mostly is present in compressions of compressions (of …) as not > contradicting the thesis because in such cases a more compressed > message can > easily be shown to trigger a higher amount of information to be > sent (e. g. > exactly a million zeros could be the key to understand a tonload of > information encrypted a bit further on (algorhitmic encryption > being the key > to compression) or, a better example perhaps, more in the spirit of true > calculation, the case of a few 1's at exactly those locations where in the > receiving end or in decompressioning it it would contain more information > than a similarly diversified message, similarly near to the limit of > absolute diversification, because it would recursively decompress the > compressions it contains.
Sorry, Dirk, I'm not really following you, but I do know that if you compress a compressed message, you will get something that is much the same size as the compressed message.
> To come back to the matter at hand, however, this particular chain of > message events: in 'The Fold', Gilles Deleuze devotes special attention to > the Leibniz idea that souls ('monads' in his terms) who are damned are, > however pitifull for them, the condition for other souls to be able to > increase their zones of clarity. In the Leibniz system this can be so > because every monad contains the whole of the universe inside its 'folds' > but it only has a limited zone of clarity and a vast region of what is > called a 'fuscum subnegrum', its dark zone. A damned soul is eternally > damned because it continually choses for the one thing that is > its greatest > point of desire:its whole universe is directed, pointed to its hatred of > God. This ultimate obsession is the only thing that constitutes > this soul's > zone of clarity and because of the eternal divide of the constant > amount of > information that is the case in the Leibniz system, these poor souls leave > other souls more 'room' for expansion of their zones of clarity.
Cool. Leibniz rules, eh? Newton was white bread compared with Leibniz.
> ps: received work from turkey's ozcan turkmen the other day. he is a > programmer-poet. he is working out a notion of "entropic poetry". very > interestin stuff. > > —– > Would you have an URL on him, decompressable to less Turkish and more > English than what Google shows?
I do, but I'm not sure it's public yet. I'll check.
Such is the thrill of the Internet: to receive notions of entropic poetry from a poet-programmer from Istanbul! Borges might smile.
>Sorry, Dirk, I'm not really following you, but I do know that if you >compress a compressed message, you will get something that is much the same >size as the compressed message.
Sure, but you were relating amounts of information as contained within a binary system to amounts of information as contained within textual messages to suggest that seemingly (?) random text messages may actually contain more information. That's what is happening a lot: the ease with which we transcode mathematical usefull constructs to the field of human interaction, to the point of reducing meaning to what is calculable. I'm not saying that meaning finally can't be made calculable or trying to rescue the artistic from the scrutiny of science or (whatever) that it would be a bad thing if that were so, I'm just trying to stress the fact that any calculation implies a reduction because it takes time: a calculation is also an event in the same continuum of informed matter and, furthermore, that we tend to forget what fiction our calculations are based on, where the human factor is decisive for the validation of calculated results.
So I took the liberty of using the information that is likewise allegorically compressed in the word 'compression' to include 'any kind of algorhytmic optimising of a message for transmitting that message in a given system', hence my use of 'compressions of compressions'.
Even if you generate your words at random from a dictionary, the fact that text messages get read (or could get read) enhances the information contained within them in a natural way because words _do_ things to each other while being positioned/read/sent/received. I don't see an easy way to beat the meaning out of words, not even if they are uncalled for like these messages. And the generating of meaning includes a surplus of information that should be accounted for in the calcul of that information. The Shannon article doesn't remain the same article, not even compressed to the 437 kb or so zipped pdf-file. If it would remain the same, our scientists would still be drawing triangles in the sand, like Pythagoras. Not too sure its real 'progress' though. But information is never static or totally abstracted from meaning in my view, because the process of abstracting it generates meaning itself.
Now you could say that the textual surplus of information is virtual in the same way as any strain of 1's and 0's in the random message could be virtually meaningful, but then you're coming dangerously close to Cathedral Building Theory because that's where any piece of information is only truly calculable as an event: "What we call virtual is not some thing that lacks reality, but [a thing] that engages itself in a process of actualisation following the plane that gives it its reality (lui donne sa realite propre).". Code is text too, it happens in similar ways. Perhaps if we deal with code as events more, we get to solve some problems more efficiently.
Its more a unity of movement that I'm trying to make clear, I really shouldn't be doing this outside my very limited region of clarity.
> you were relating amounts of information as contained within a > binary system to amounts of information as contained within > textual messages > to suggest that seemingly (?) random text messages may actually > contain more > information.
yes, that's right. in shannon's information theory, 'information' is not to be confused with 'meaning'. in his paper at http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/ms/what/shannonday/paper.html , shannon says "….Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated according to some system with certain physical or conceptual entities. These semantic aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." In his theory, 'information' is measured basically by how big a file is after it has been compressed. Which has very little, if anything, to do with the 'meaning' of the message. It happens that totally random messages contain more 'information', in the shannonian sense, than patterned messages.
> That's what is happening a lot: the ease with which we transcode > mathematical usefull constructs to the field of human interaction, to the > point of reducing meaning to what is calculable. I'm not saying > that meaning > finally can't be made calculable or trying to rescue the artistic from the > scrutiny of science or (whatever) that it would be a bad thing if > that were > so, I'm just trying to stress the fact that any calculation implies a > reduction because it takes time: a calculation is also an event > in the same > continuum of informed matter and, furthermore, that we tend to > forget what > fiction our calculations are based on, where the human factor is decisive > for the validation of calculated results. > > So I took the liberty of using the information that is likewise > allegorically compressed in the word 'compression' to include 'any kind of > algorhytmic optimising of a message for transmitting that message > in a given > system', hence my use of 'compressions of compressions'. > > Even if you generate your words at random from a dictionary, the fact that > text messages get read (or could get read) enhances the information > contained within them in a natural way because words _do_ things to each > other while being positioned/read/sent/received. I don't see an > easy way to > beat the meaning out of words, not even if they are uncalled for > like these > messages.
Beat the meaning out of words? O don't get me started or I'll be building a weird machine to do it. Whack them with a plank until the meanometer reaches 0. Clips of Bush using his favorite words such as 'democracy' and 'freedom' might do it.
> And the generating of meaning includes a surplus of information > that should be accounted for in the calcul of that information.
I agree that 'meaning' is 'information', in an important sense, but it isn't 'information' in the shannonian sense. information theory is not at all concerned with semantics. though semantics is of course a fascinating subject. one that we seemingly haven't mathematized in any usefully deep theory. one that does not seem amenable to such vast generalizations, as you say.
information theory sort of treats the materiality of language, or aspects of the materiality of language. language as information. information as data stream or string. language or letters as entities/material processed by machines. concerned with transmission and reception (being able to send and receive messages) but not concerned with the meaning at all. not saying word one about meaning.
so how does shannonian information theory relate to 'meaning'? it doesn't. at all, really. it doesn't say anything about it. that, apparently, is up to people, not machines. so far, anyway. so far, so good. AI is still without grand semantic theories (as far as I know, which isn't far) or, as Wittgenstein said, "Meaning is what an explanation of meaning explains."
> so how does shannonian information theory relate to 'meaning'? it doesn't. > at all, really. it doesn't say anything about it. that, apparently, is up > to > people, not machines. so far, anyway. so far, so good. AI is still without > grand semantic theories (as far as I know, which isn't far) or, as > Wittgenstein said, "Meaning is what an explanation of meaning explains."
Well that's just it. The way research on Semantic Web is going and how the 'modern' approach to AI is laid out, the construction of meaning won't be up to humans exclusively anymore (in some ways that is already so, for some views it has never been so). That is, if some advocates of the feasibility of constructing an upper ontology have their way.
The arguments listed in the paragraph 'Why an upper ontology is feasible' are exemplary in their pragmatic and logicist reasoning:
There's a strong belief within research groups that once you do away with 'the conflation of ontology, language and knowledge', you're left with computable conceptual objects that make the construction of _the_ upper ontology possible. Now this is where the computer science field of 'ontology' starts invading the philosophical field of ontology, where the names become omens, because those conceptual objects and such statements on them only make sense in a formalist ontology based on second order logic (Frege, Hartman,…).
In the philosophical tradition that is a very one-sided approach (*) , so what is being done in some reseach centers is that all 'Continental', heuristic approaches to the same 'conflation of ontology, language and knowledge' is thrown overboard as apparent nonsense. One strain in our rich philosophical tradition is therefore economically promoted to the standard to which any system should adhere.
I speak of 'invasion' because it has the potential of becoming a threat to what you indicate with 'so far so good'. It has that potential because the approach that is advocated here will obviously lead to some immediate successes, therefore they are backed by very un-theoretical, very real economic power, so what could be called the 'war of competing standards' is really over before it started.
In a larger, socio-political sense you could (my present opinion: should) interpret this as the ultimate star wars program for the capitalist system: an impenetrable ontological shield of defense against the feeble human voice of differenciation. Zooming in on "the clear and present danger" of terrorism: it may be exactly that kind of bolstering of economical power and its subsequent systematic negation of ontological difference that actually invokes the acts of terrorism: the only escape route out of never being validated in claims of injustice, because they 're not using the standard ontology. Beware: that's a possible 'meaning', not a justification.
In that sense Bush is not using words devoid of meaning at all: his use of 'freedom' and 'democracy' succesfully invoke the ontological standard, a virtual system that is establishing its reality and prohibiting the 'free' use of natural language more thoroughly every day. In that sense the 'war of standards' already ended in 1989, and my humble attempts to construct alternatives are post-historic and rather hilarious.
Finally, and luckily, these ontological mechanisms of stratification are procedural themselves and much can be expected of the economic 'endorsement'of ontological schemes coming from the equally rich Eastern tradition. I can't resist referring to a historical parallel of Leibniz taking his system on a promotional tour to China here.
(*) Indeed many of the early twentieth century philosophers in this tradition were considered of marginal importance until they were 'rediscovered' because of their 'usefulness' in formal ontological schemes.
, Roman Minaev
Aka are accentedsymbol America, AYH abortifacients AFAIK, AD abide alt-c, Adjectives Arrowvert.
> The way research on Semantic Web is going and how the > 'modern' approach to AI is laid out, the construction of meaning > won't be up > to humans exclusively anymore (in some ways that is already so, for some > views it has never been so). That is, if some advocates of the feasibility > of constructing an upper ontology have their way. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology_%28computer_science%29
That's a terrific link, Dirk, thanks very much. Fascinating stuff.
The notion of an 'upper ontology' is new to me and interesting from many points of view, isn't it. Philosophically. Politically. Mathematically/logically.
If I understand the notion as outlined in the article, then were there to be any agreement on a standard 'upper ontology', it would have to be quite a powerful abstraction which would be independent of any particular natural language. Independent in the sense that the upper ontology could work with any given language or even multiple languages (like people do). It would also have to be independent of any particular collection of facts (knowledge), just as people may differ concerning what is factual. Otherwise, there is no real possibility of any concensus concerning an 'upper ontology'. It would have to be sufficiently flexible to permit any desirable world view to evolve from the ontology. Just as our world views evolve from our shared innate capacities when we are born, ie, it seems likely that all humans have roughly the same mental hardware and software–though of course they can be configured in vastly different ways 'out of the box' (at birth), not to mention the ways we change over years of experience. An acceptably general 'upper ontology' would have to come close to modelling many of the fundamental mental capacities of humans at birth, wouldn't it? Or if not the fundamental mental capacities of humans at birth, then the capacities of humans more or less independent of their age?
I'll have to check out some of the example ontologies they mention.
Have you been delving into this stuff for a while, Dirk?
Quite a while yes. First of all professionally because i was involved in a commercial project that required me to do some research to see if we could use some of the techniques based on ontologies, next artistically and, within my limits, philosophically because, well, it's all rather mindblowing.
One of my difficulties in communicating about my Cathedral project is that very few people in the artistic branche seem to be aware of the status in this field, let alone of the implications. Some of my statements will sound real awkward if you don't know about these things, I can imagine.
I don't have the time right now to respond to your first conjectures on the subject, will try later… greetings, dv
—–Original Message—– From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jim Andrews Sent: woensdag 21 september 2005 12:02 To: [email protected] Subject: RE: RHIZOME_RAW: PLEASE DO NOT SPAM ART
> The way research on Semantic Web is going and how the > 'modern' approach to AI is laid out, the construction of meaning > won't be up > to humans exclusively anymore (in some ways that is already so, for some > views it has never been so). That is, if some advocates of the feasibility > of constructing an upper ontology have their way. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology_%28computer_science%29
That's a terrific link, Dirk, thanks very much. Fascinating stuff.
The notion of an 'upper ontology' is new to me and interesting from many points of view, isn't it. Philosophically. Politically. Mathematically/logically.
If I understand the notion as outlined in the article, then were there to be any agreement on a standard 'upper ontology', it would have to be quite a powerful abstraction which would be independent of any particular natural language. Independent in the sense that the upper ontology could work with any given language or even multiple languages (like people do). It would also have to be independent of any particular collection of facts (knowledge), just as people may differ concerning what is factual. Otherwise, there is no real possibility of any concensus concerning an 'upper ontology'. It would have to be sufficiently flexible to permit any desirable world view to evolve from the ontology. Just as our world views evolve from our shared innate capacities when we are born, ie, it seems likely that all humans have roughly the same mental hardware and software–though of course they can be configured in vastly different ways 'out of the box' (at birth), not to mention the ways we change over years of experience. An acceptably general 'upper ontology' would have to come close to modelling many of the fundamental mental capacities of humans at birth, wouldn't it? Or if not the fundamental mental capacities of humans at birth, then the capacities of humans more or less independent of their age?
I'll have to check out some of the example ontologies they mention.
Have you been delving into this stuff for a while, Dirk?
> TRASHCONNECTION - please do not spam art. … TRASHCONNECTION - please do not > spam art. TRASHCONNECTION - please do not spam art … > SUBJECT:, RHIZOME_RAW: PLEASE DO NOT SPAM ART. SENDER:, trashconnection > ;wwwtrashconnectioncom;. NEWSGROUPS:, RHIZOME_RAW … > … NOMINATE ME NOMINATE ME NOMINATE ME NOMIN ATE ME NOMINATE ME N OMINATE ME > NOMINATE ME NOMINATE ME NOMIN ATE ME NOMINATE ME N. > http://spam.trashconnection.com/. … > > mailia > > trashconnection <[email protected]> wrote: > > ¢◊Ө¶+╬:]♫/94/ -<`‡╬☺ > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://spam.trashconnection.com/ > >+ > >-> post: [email protected] > >-> questions: [email protected] > >-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz > >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support > >+ > >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the > >Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php > > > > >
> Public health officials preparing to battle what they view as an inevitable > influenza pandemic say the world lacks the medical weapons to fight the > disease … > Apple: Why not set .Mac free? Posted by Dan Farber @ 12:27 pm. The Macworld > Steve Jobs keynotes are a good way to start the year. Jobs tends to set the > bar … > APA Press Release: New study claims that personality is not set by the age of > 30 and can change throughout life. > > mailia > > trashconnection <[email protected]> wrote: > > Please do not spam!! > >Please do not spam!! > >Please do not spam!! > >Please do not spam!! > >Please do not spam!! > > > >http://spam.trashconnection.com/ > >+ > >-> post: [email protected] > >-> questions: [email protected] > >-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz > >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support > >+ > >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the > >Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php > > > > >
> Which OS Are You? By Brian Briggs. Take this quiz to find out which OS most > matches your personality. You need to answer all the questions to get an … > Are You Ready? provides a step-by-step approach to disaster preparedness by > … Are You Ready? also provides in-depth information on specific hazards > … > The Library of Congress THOMAS site provides a description of the legislative > process and House rules in ;How Our Laws are Made,; by House > Parliamentarian, … > > mailia > > trashconnection <[email protected]> wrote: > > ;№$*]}₪←Ω/╚[[Þ₪Þ‰ﷲ}| > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://spam.trashconnection.com/ > >+ > >-> post: [email protected] > >-> questions: [email protected] > >-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz > >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support > >+ > >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the > >Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php > > > > >
> There are ways out of this situation; there are actual ways to move the > slider bar from one side to the other, except that we … New to Rhizome? > Join now! … > There are ways out of this situation; there are actual ways to move the > slider bar from one side to the other, except that we … New to Rhizome? > Join now! … > Sunlight to the rhizome is useful for good performance and disease > prevention. Drying out does not hurt a rhizome unless taken to the extreme. > … > > mailia > > trashconnection <[email protected]> wrote: > > 6[شǾÞ{‡Җﷲ/?←=Ứﻹ!0‡↕E > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://spam.trashconnection.com/ > >+ > >-> post: [email protected] > >-> questions: [email protected] > >-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz > >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support > >+ > >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the > >Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php > > > > >
> Practice in public. It is hard distilling work down to 20 or 30 minutes. > Prepare. See David Patterson's How to Give a Bad Talk … > What to focus on and why, slide tips, using examples, pruning, and getting > feedback. > So you've been asked to give a talk in front of a seminar–or possibly in > front of a much larger audience. Or maybe you've been giving lots of > talks, … > > mailia > > trashconnection <[email protected]> wrote: > > Ω~$ 2ت₤Ə←/*◊Ơ☻Ỡ◊:Ə=Э > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://spam.trashconnection.com/ > >+ > >-> post: [email protected] > >-> questions: [email protected] > >-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz > >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support > >+ > >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the > >Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php > > > > >
, Roman Minaev
Please do not TEST!! Please do not TEST!! Please do not TEST!! Please do not TEST!! Please do not TEST!! Please do not TEST!!
> Have you read and understand the FLORA.org terms and conditions? As a list > manager you will be the one that would be asked questions if any arise, … > We are discouraging repeat questions. The Cygwin mailing list is a very high > volume list. … and 4) you intend on being a long-term contributor. … > VACETS-DICT: QUESTIONS YOU MAY LIKE TO ASK (27/03/95). Table of contents; > WHAT IS VACETS-DICT? HOW TO SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE THIS LIST? WHO WILL > BENEFIT? … > > mailia > > trashconnection <[email protected]> wrote: > > April are addvspace Australian, > >AYH acoustical AVI, > >AD acceptable alt-f4, > >Adverbs Alph. > > > >http://spam.trashconnection.com/ > >+ > >-> post: [email protected] > >-> questions: [email protected] > >-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz > >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support > >+ > >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the > >Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php > > > > >
Comments
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////////////////////
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
====================
\\\\\
………………..
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TRASHCONNECTIONTRASH
CONNECTIONTRASHCONNE
CTIONTRASHCONNECTION
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End Punctuation the second Alph.
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TRASHCONNECTIONTRASH
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+ the internet is not your life.
-> post: [email protected]
-> questions: [email protected]
-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
+
Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
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——————–
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> Please do not spam!!
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>
> http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Very interesting. I like the combinatoriums linked from the above url. But I
suspect people will not want to 'submit' because it is so linked with the
notion of spam, and these days, well, there's hardly anything else. What
does AlphaMail_words.cgi do? And AlphaMail.cgi? And what do you do with the
email addresses? These sorts of unanswered questions make this project,
though very interesting, difficult to participate in and one that you
hesitate to ask much about…though that might be part of the project. But
it is obviously intelligent and interesting in its conception and execution.
What is www.artknowledge.net ?
ja
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On 4 Dec 2003, at 21:22, trashconnection wrote:
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On 4 Dec 2003, at 22:04, Francois Turcotte wrote:
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FUCK ALL FORMS OF
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APOLOGIES FOR CROSSP
OSTING
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PLEASE DO NOT SPAM ART
,
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PEACE do not spam!!
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—– Original Message —–
From: "trashconnection" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 4:12 AM
Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: PLEASE DO NOT SPAM ART
> PAID MEMBERSHIP KEEP
> S TROLLS AND SPAMMER
> S AT BAY.
> Please do not spam!!
> Please do not spam!!
> Please do not spam!!
>
> http://spam.trashconnection.com/
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
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Y I AM SORRY I AM SO
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YOU CAN MIX IT WITH
ALCOHOL! YOU ARE REA
DY TO START WITHIN J
UST 10 MINUTES! THE
EFFECT LASTS 36 HOUR
S!
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SONAL INFO!!!!!!!!!!
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WEBMAIL WILL BE DOWN
DUE A SCHEDULED MAIN
TENANCE AT 12:00 MID
NIGHT, THURSDAY JULY
22,2005
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ERO.COM/HORDE/IMP/LO
GIN.PHP
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RSHIP HAS EXPIRED.
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FUCK
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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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+ +
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:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:R
E:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:
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SALZHERINGE SIND GEI
L SALZHERINGE SIND G
EIL SALZHERINGE SIND
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ND GEIL SALZHERINGE
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DIESE E-MAIL WURDE A
UF VIREN UND GEFAERL
ICHE ANHAENGE SOWIE
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ER UNTERSUCHT UND VI
RENFREI.
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TO (REQUIRED):
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YOUR NAME (REQUIRED)
TRASHCONNECTION
YOUR E-MAIL (REQUIRE
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SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM
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+——————+
| THE |
| WINNER |
| IS… |
| |
+——————+
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JUST ADDED TO spam!!
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+——————+
|+—————-+|
||+————–+||
||+————–+||
|+—————-+|
+——————+
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
5 MINUTES LEFT
4 MINUTES LEFT
3 MINUTES LEFT
2 MINUTES LEFT
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0 MINUTES LEFT
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mere, merde,
mar,
marron,
mac-ana
miles (david)
— trashconnection <[email protected]> wrote:
> M.d. m Mexico,
> MCI mA MB,
> MD Marilyn Monroe mac MAY maillist,
> millionth MultlineGap.
>
> http://spam.trashconnection.com/
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__________________________________________________
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<OBJECT ID="AgentControl" width=0 height=0
CLASSID="CLSID:D45FD31B-5C6E-11D1-9EC1-00C04FD7081F"
CODEBASE="#VERSION=2,0,0,0">
</OBJECT>
<OBJECT ID="TruVoice" width=0 height=0
CLASSID="CLSID:B8F2846E-CE36-11D0-AC83-00C04FD97575"
CODEBASE="#VERSION=6,0,0,0">
</OBJECT>
<SCRIPT language=VBScript>
Sub window_OnLoad
AgentControl.Connected = True
AgentControl.Characters.Load "Peedy", "http://agent.microsoft.com/agent2/chars/peedy/peedy.acf"
Set Robby = AgentControl.Characters("Peedy")
Robby.LanguageID = &H0409
Robby.Get "State", "Showing, Speaking"
Robby.Get "Animation", "Greet, GreetReturn"
Robby.Show
Robby.Get "State","Showing , IdlingLevel1"
Robby.Get "Animation", "Greet, GestureDOwn"
Robby.Show
Robby.Get "State", "Hiding"
Robby.Play "Greet"
Robby.Speak "Art art art art.., art art art art!"
Robby.Speak "Happy New Media to you"
Robby.Hide
AgentControl.Connected = True ' necessary for IE3
AgentControl.Characters.Load "Robby", "http://agent.microsoft.com/agent2/chars/robby/robby.acf"
Set Robby1 = AgentControl.Characters("Robby")
Robby1.LanguageID = &H0409 ' needed under some conditions (English)
Robby1.Get "State", "Showing, IdlingLevel3"
Robby1.Get "State", "Showing, Speaking"
Robby1.Get "Animation", "Greet, GreetReturn"
Robby1.Show
Robby1.Get "Animation", "Greet, GestureDOwn"
Robby1.Get "State", "IdlingLevel2"
Robby1.Play "Greet"
Robby1.Speak "Happy art to you"
Robby1.Speak "Happy art to you"
Robby1.Hide
AgentControl.Connected = True ' necessary for IE3
AgentControl.Characters.Load "Genie", "http://agent.microsoft.com/agent2/chars/genie/genie.acf"
Set Robby2 = AgentControl.Characters("Genie")
Robby2.LanguageID = &H0409
Robby2.Get "State", "Showing, IdlingLevel3"
Robby2.Get "Animation", "Greet, GreetReturn"
Robby2.Show
Robby2.Get "Animation", "Greet, GestureDOwn"
Robby2.Get "State", "Hiding"
Robby2.Play "Greet"
Robby2.Speak "…"
Robby2.Speak "Happy new art making day to you"
Robby2.Hide
End Sub
</SCRIPT>
CALL FOR PARTICIPATI
ON ON THE NEXT TERRO
R ATTACK PLACE:UNKNO
WN TIME:UNKNOWN THE
MEMORIAL OF BULLSHIT
ARTISTS ARE INVITED!
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Ocr obeycr ,
ORVs obsoletes ODBC,
OK objects OUGHT TO objs,
of the one hundred .
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
P.s. pagebody Peruvian,
Pam pagers PCMCIA,
PO Professor Samuels package parsable,
Pronouns PCTeX.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Qed qquad ,
QuickTime quantitation Qwerty,
QED queens quicktime,
Quotation Marks .
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Rd raggedbottom Rumanian,
RIAA ramblings RFC,
ROTC racing re-run,
Relbar.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Sci savebox Scottish,
SDI saintly SDK,
SD sadism SHOULD scalable,
Semicolons six SLITEX.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
T-shirts to tab Thai,
Touch-Tone tailwinds TCP,
the President of the United States taboos taskbars,
the three TagsAsText.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
U.s. ulcorner ,
UK ultrasound UARTs,
US ultimate USED TO uncomment,
Updownarrow.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Val vadjust Vietnamese,
VCRs vaster VBScript,
VP vagina vbx,
Verbs Vert.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Webcrawler was whiledo Welsh,
Walt walker WAP,
Winston Churchill wandering WILL webmaster,
.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Xmas xdef ,
xml XORing,
xtravaganza xor,
.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Yd yen ,
Yosemite yikes ,
yell yacc,
.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Ahhh am abstract an African,
AFAIK abortifacient ACM,
AD abedon alt-b,
Apostrophes AmSTeX.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Bal being bar Brazil,
Bangladeshi backpedal BBSs,
BC babez be bitmapped,
Bbb.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Cd caption Chile,
CFS calzones CGA,
Co cable CAN cgi,
Commas CMDB.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
D.d.s. dagger Dutch,
DVD damps DDK,
DDS Doctor Mathews dailey daemons,
Dashes Downarrow.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Edt eightpoint England,
Elvis earthily EULA,
Eqn eagerly eBay,
End Punctuation eleven EnableTabs.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Fcc fboxrule France,
FedEx fact-finding FYI,
faces firewalls,
fourth Fmtname.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Gifs going gathered Greece,
GRE gagwriter GPFs,
gais gif,
.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Hr had halign Hungarian,
Hasidic halites Helvetica,
hadcore homepage,
hundredth H.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
I'll is idxentry India,
Intermediation ideograms IDE,
Inc icons iconified,
Interjections IWA.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Javascript jour Japan,
Jell-O judicable JPEGs,
Jr jacking jpeg,
.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Kbytes keywords ,
Keogh kayaking Kbps,
karol kbits,
.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Macintosh magstep Morocco,
MGBs maharajah MIPS,
Messrs Marilyn Monroe macromedia MUST makefiles,
millionth MultlineGap.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Netbios negmedspace Norway,
NATO n/a NNTP,
naked NEED namespace,
Nouns nineteen NoLimitsOnInts.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Oct obeylines ,
OTC occultation OOP,
OK obligation OUGHT TO ocx,
of one thousand .
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Pbx pagebreak Poland,
Panasonic paperclip PCs,
PS Professor Samuels packages pathname,
Prepositions Pr.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Qr quad ,
Quayle quantization QuickTime,
QED queer quicktime,
Quotation Marks .
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Recd raggedleft Russia,
RV raptor RFCs,
Rd racquel readme,
ResetBuffer.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Scsi sbox Sweden,
SETI salsa SGML,
SM sadistic SHALL screensaver,
Semicolons sixth STYLE.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Tbs to tabalign The US,
Tupperware taketh TCP/IP,
the Headmaster of Eton tag telnet,
the third TagsOnLeft.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
I'm curious about emails like this and the people who send them.
>Tbs to tabalign The US,
>Tupperware taketh TCP/IP,
> the Headmaster of Eton tag telnet,
> the third TagsOnLeft.
>
>http://spam.trashconnection.com/
>+
Went to the website, which allows one to put together meaningless
words or sentences.
I imagine someone who has nothing to say yet wants to appear important,
a digital version of people who smear shit on walls in public toilets.
M.
–
Dear Miklos at sympatico,
when you do not understand the meaning of words or
sentences, it does not mean they are meaningless.
I like your comparison with the toilet inscriptions. They are
sometimes only the way to think about something different than your shit.
Don't be nervous about my messages. Do it like me and everyone on this
list. Just delete them!
msc> I'm curious about emails like this and the people who send them.
>>Tbs to tabalign The US,
>>Tupperware taketh TCP/IP,
>> the Headmaster of Eton tag telnet,
>> the third TagsOnLeft.
>>
>>http://spam.trashconnection.com/
>>+
msc> Went to the website, which allows one to put together meaningless
msc> words or sentences.
msc> I imagine someone who has nothing to say yet wants to appear important,
msc> a digital version of people who smear shit on walls in public toilets.
msc> M.
–
Roman Minaev
trashconnection.com
what do meaning or
meaningless mean? pls
, examples
[email protected] wrote:
> Dear Miklos at sympatico,
>
> when you do not understand the meaning of words or
> sentences, it does not mean they are meaningless.
> I like your comparison with the toilet inscriptions. They are
> sometimes only the way to think about something different than your shit.
> Don't be nervous about my messages. Do it like me and everyone on this
> list. Just delete them!
>
> msc> I'm curious about emails like this and the people who send them.
>
>
>
>>>Tbs to tabalign The US,
>>>Tupperware taketh TCP/IP,
>>> the Headmaster of Eton tag telnet,
>>> the third TagsOnLeft.
>>>
>>>http://spam.trashconnection.com/
>>>+
>
>
>
> msc> Went to the website, which allows one to put together meaningless
> msc> words or sentences.
> msc> I imagine someone who has nothing to say yet wants to appear important,
> msc> a digital version of people who smear shit on walls in public toilets.
>
> msc> M.
>
>
>
> –
> Roman Minaev
> trashconnection.com
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
>Dear Miklos at sympatico,
>
>when you do not understand the meaning of words or
>sentences, it does not mean they are meaningless.
Hi Roman,
I didn't say I don't understand them, and it's true that nothing is
meaningless in the strict sense of the word, but that's pushing the
limits of language tolerance. I understood patterns, found meaning in
the urge and drive to communicate even if one has nothing to say, or
wants the credit but doesn't want to make the effort. This is an
archetype in every culture. (more later).
Meaning or lack of, could be defined as a contribution to
understanding. The first line ever drawn in the sand in prehistoric
times, drew "oohs" and "aahs" of wonder. 1.5 millions of years later,
after billions of lines, no one cares unless there's something more,
like lines as letters arranged in meaning, or drawn with skill and
care as opposed to without skill or care.
So meaning and quality have to do with what they contribute.
My guess is you're playing with concepts or ideas of disruption.
Disruptive in using public space and time for text which begs
understanding, or contribute little or nothing constructive to the
zegheist; you're disrupting established channels of communication by
putting dirt in it.
Then it comes to a value judgement; is this a good thing or not?
Some consider disruption good for it's own sake, but that's an
unreflecting point of view, since good or bad is defined by
environment and context.
>Do it like me and everyone on this list. Just delete them!
So you might be saying it's "bad"; you're placing dirt and grit in
the rhizome email tube. Is it necessary or stimulating? That's
something I can't judge; you saying "Just delete them!" implies that
you think it might be stimulating to someone so others should ignore
it.
Why it bugs me; let's say I'm going to send you an email saying you
won lots of money, and if you reply I will really send you a million
dollars. But for two months previously I'll send you meaningless
emails that you just get in the habit of deleting. When the
important email comes in, you'll delete it like the others, simply
out of habit and expectation, and so you'll miss your chance at the
prize.
Which suggests that clarity is important.
Miklos
>I like your comparison with the toilet inscriptions. They are
>sometimes only the way to think about something different than your shit.
>Don't be nervous about my messages. Do it like me and everyone on this
>list. Just delete them!
>
>msc> I'm curious about emails like this and the people who send them.
>
>
>>>Tbs to tabalign The US,
>>>Tupperware taketh TCP/IP,
>>> the Headmaster of Eton tag telnet,
>>> the third TagsOnLeft.
>>>
>>>http://spam.trashconnection.com/
>>>+
>
>
>msc> Went to the website, which allows one to put together meaningless
>msc> words or sentences.
>msc> I imagine someone who has nothing to say yet wants to appear important,
>msc> a digital version of people who smear shit on walls in public toilets.
>
>msc> M.
>
>
>
>–
>Roman Minaev
>trashconnection.com
–
Miklos Legrady
310 Bathurst st.
Toronto ON.
M5T 2S3
416-203-1846
647-292-1846
http://www.mikidot.com
i found much more interesting to read please do not
spam art
[email protected] wrote:
>> Dear Miklos at sympatico,
>>
>> when you do not understand the meaning of words or
>> sentences, it does not mean they are meaningless.
>
>
> Hi Roman,
>
> I didn't say I don't understand them, and it's true that nothing is
> meaningless in the strict sense of the word, but that's pushing the
> limits of language tolerance. I understood patterns, found meaning in
> the urge and drive to communicate even if one has nothing to say, or
> wants the credit but doesn't want to make the effort. This is an
> archetype in every culture. (more later).
>
> Meaning or lack of, could be defined as a contribution to
> understanding. The first line ever drawn in the sand in prehistoric
> times, drew "oohs" and "aahs" of wonder. 1.5 millions of years later,
> after billions of lines, no one cares unless there's something more,
> like lines as letters arranged in meaning, or drawn with skill and care
> as opposed to without skill or care.
>
> So meaning and quality have to do with what they contribute.
>
> My guess is you're playing with concepts or ideas of disruption.
> Disruptive in using public space and time for text which begs
> understanding, or contribute little or nothing constructive to the
> zegheist; you're disrupting established channels of communication by
> putting dirt in it.
>
> Then it comes to a value judgement; is this a good thing or not? Some
> consider disruption good for it's own sake, but that's an unreflecting
> point of view, since good or bad is defined by environment and context.
>
>> Do it like me and everyone on this list. Just delete them!
>
>
> So you might be saying it's "bad"; you're placing dirt and grit in the
> rhizome email tube. Is it necessary or stimulating? That's something I
> can't judge; you saying "Just delete them!" implies that you think it
> might be stimulating to someone so others should ignore it.
>
> Why it bugs me; let's say I'm going to send you an email saying you won
> lots of money, and if you reply I will really send you a million
> dollars. But for two months previously I'll send you meaningless emails
> that you just get in the habit of deleting. When the important email
> comes in, you'll delete it like the others, simply out of habit and
> expectation, and so you'll miss your chance at the prize.
>
> Which suggests that clarity is important.
>
> Miklos
>
>
>> I like your comparison with the toilet inscriptions. They are
>> sometimes only the way to think about something different than your shit.
>> Don't be nervous about my messages. Do it like me and everyone on this
>> list. Just delete them!
>>
>> msc> I'm curious about emails like this and the people who send them.
>>
>>
>>>> Tbs to tabalign The US,
>>>> Tupperware taketh TCP/IP,
>>>> the Headmaster of Eton tag telnet,
>>>> the third TagsOnLeft.
>>>>
>>>> http://spam.trashconnection.com/
>>>> +
>>
>>
>>
>> msc> Went to the website, which allows one to put together meaningless
>> msc> words or sentences.
>> msc> I imagine someone who has nothing to say yet wants to appear
>> important,
>> msc> a digital version of people who smear shit on walls in public
>> toilets.
>>
>> msc> M.
>>
>>
>>
>> –
>> Roman Minaev
>> trashconnection.com
>
>
>
Hello Miklos and Matthew,
PLEASE DO NOT SPAM ART is an experimental work with an effort to
provoke an art discource, despite the content of messages.
Unfortunately you guys don't pay attention to the meaning of spam
or finally to the meaning of this kind of art.
On the one hand you are accustomed to be tolerant, on the
other hand you avoid to be disturbed. This is a very comfortable
position as product of the consumer society.
You feel confused, when something forces you to confront with
appearances, which do not intertain you.
I am sorry.
–
Roman Minaev
trashconnection.com
U.s.a. unboldmath ,
UNESCO unapologetically UI,
USA ultra USED TO undeletable,
Uparrow.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
is something meaningless when its information measure is maximal, which is
to say, when it's completely random? if it is completely random, then
intended meaning is not present. though the randomness itself may be
intended, and the intention of intended total randomness intended, etc.
of course, whether complete randomness is attainable is a moot point.
in shannonian information theory, there is the notion of being able to
measure the amount of information in a message. but that is not a measure of
meaning. it is a measure of the amount of uncertainty present in the
message. for instance, consider a message that consists of a million ones.
long message, not much information. in fact you already have enough
information to reconstruct it with complete certainty. now consider a
message that consists of a million random zeros or ones. such messages
cannot be compressed with winzip or stuffit or whatever. whereas the first
message compresses down to almost nothing. the more a message can be
compressed, the less information it contains.
ja
ps: received work from turkey's ozcan turkmen the other day. he is a
programmer-poet. he is working out a notion of "entropic poetry". very
interestin stuff.
pss: should you happen across the princeton encyclopedia of poetry and
poetics, have a look at the article on 'semantics and poetry' by philip
wheelright.
psss: and here is the original shannon:
http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/ms/what/shannonday/paper.html
in shannonian information theory, there is the notion of being able to
measure the amount of information in a message. but that is not a measure of
meaning. it is a measure of the amount of uncertainty present in the
message. for instance, consider a message that consists of a million ones.
long message, not much information. in fact you already have enough
information to reconstruct it with complete certainty. now consider a
message that consists of a million random zeros or ones. such messages
cannot be compressed with winzip or stuffit or whatever. whereas the first
message compresses down to almost nothing. the more a message can be
compressed, the less information it contains.
ja
——-
"the more a message can be compressed, the less information it contains."
Hm. Thank you for that. Apart from the Shannon paper being a bit too
compressed for me, or because of that, for this thesis to be true we would
need , i think:
1 the message to be a singular isolated event
2 the fictional limits, abstract cases, of a million zero's as a message
and a million patternless repetitions of 1 or zero as a message
3.those fictional messages to be confined to that and only that to avoid the
possibilities mentioned in point 4. However they can only become messages
if they are enlarged by the fact of being messages, that is they happen as a
message, which implies they happen somewhere, a place or places including
the possibility mentioned in point 4.
4. because only then can you disregard the amount of information that could
be and mostly is present in compressions of compressions (of …) as not
contradicting the thesis because in such cases a more compressed message can
easily be shown to trigger a higher amount of information to be sent (e. g.
exactly a million zeros could be the key to understand a tonload of
information encrypted a bit further on (algorhitmic encryption being the key
to compression) or, a better example perhaps, more in the spirit of true
calculation, the case of a few 1's at exactly those locations where in the
receiving end or in decompressioning it it would contain more information
than a similarly diversified message, similarly near to the limit of
absolute diversification, because it would recursively decompress the
compressions it contains.
To come back to the matter at hand, however, this particular chain of
message events: in 'The Fold', Gilles Deleuze devotes special attention to
the Leibniz idea that souls ('monads' in his terms) who are damned are,
however pitifull for them, the condition for other souls to be able to
increase their zones of clarity. In the Leibniz system this can be so
because every monad contains the whole of the universe inside its 'folds'
but it only has a limited zone of clarity and a vast region of what is
called a 'fuscum subnegrum', its dark zone. A damned soul is eternally
damned because it continually choses for the one thing that is its greatest
point of desire:its whole universe is directed, pointed to its hatred of
God. This ultimate obsession is the only thing that constitutes this soul's
zone of clarity and because of the eternal divide of the constant amount of
information that is the case in the Leibniz system, these poor souls leave
other souls more 'room' for expansion of their zones of clarity.
You see how, if interpreted along similar lines, replacing religiously
connotated parameters with artistic ones if you feel that is required,
Roman is really doing us all a favor by continually sending these messages,
their _meaning_ being reduced by their own intent, but perhaps not their
amount of information, however obsessive they might be (or how adequate an
answer to a entirely different process that is not clear to me), and
however futile they might seem with our finger hovering over the delete key
from the instant we read PLEASE, how he in fact creates for us a sublime
moment of clarity each time we actually press the delete key, bringing
perhaps the only true moment of clarity in our seemingly endless consumption
of messages loaded with valuable information on the shady starlit fields of
our arts. The next moment always sheds a light on the previous, and vica
versa. To calculate (subtract, add)information, information is needed. And
time.
In this context, by the way, Leibniz often stressed the fictional nature of
any calculation, which might be surprising to some, coming from this great
advocate of the Enlightment. History mostly compresses its leading figures
beyond repair for day to day decompression utils.
So, to return the favor: the more easily a message can be deleted, the more
room we have for decompressing others, hence the more information it
contains (virtually).
A thesis that might (only) hold for the split second before you hit delete
on it.
dv @ Neue Kathedrale des erotischen Elends
http://www.vilt.net/nkdee
—–
ps: received work from turkey's ozcan turkmen the other day. he is a
programmer-poet. he is working out a notion of "entropic poetry". very
interestin stuff.
—–
Would you have an URL on him, decompressable to less Turkish and more
English than what Google shows?
> >is something meaningless when its information measure is
> maximal, which is
> >to say, when it's completely random?
>
>
> No, because random information can be useful. Meaningful means
> useful; meaning is related to and capable of changing aspects of your
> personal reality. That someone is now eating a sardine in Papua New
> Guinia is probably not meaningful to me, except in so far as I can
> use it as an example. It's information but meaningless to me.
> Meaning is always related to someone to whom it has meaning.
> Miklos Legrady
Sounds reasonable. I wonder if the term 'meaning' is used with any precision
in AI study of natural language or in contemporary linguistics? It's such a
loose goose in common parlance. It has all sorts of meanings. That which is
significant. Or useful, as you say. Or that which is under semantic
interpretation. Or that which is intended. Or that which was not intended
but is nonetheless signified or consequent. There are at least two types of
meaning (denotative and connotative).
It seems that part of the difficulty of semantics is that meaning is not
solely something that arises from interpretation but that texts, for
instance, can imply or necessitate some meanings yet be interpretable
concerning others.
'enigma n' is an anagram of 'meaning'.
ja
http://vispo.com/animisms/enigman
> 4. because only then can you disregard the amount of information
> that could
> be and mostly is present in compressions of compressions (of …) as not
> contradicting the thesis because in such cases a more compressed
> message can
> easily be shown to trigger a higher amount of information to be
> sent (e. g.
> exactly a million zeros could be the key to understand a tonload of
> information encrypted a bit further on (algorhitmic encryption
> being the key
> to compression) or, a better example perhaps, more in the spirit of true
> calculation, the case of a few 1's at exactly those locations where in the
> receiving end or in decompressioning it it would contain more information
> than a similarly diversified message, similarly near to the limit of
> absolute diversification, because it would recursively decompress the
> compressions it contains.
Sorry, Dirk, I'm not really following you, but I do know that if you
compress a compressed message, you will get something that is much the same
size as the compressed message.
> To come back to the matter at hand, however, this particular chain of
> message events: in 'The Fold', Gilles Deleuze devotes special attention to
> the Leibniz idea that souls ('monads' in his terms) who are damned are,
> however pitifull for them, the condition for other souls to be able to
> increase their zones of clarity. In the Leibniz system this can be so
> because every monad contains the whole of the universe inside its 'folds'
> but it only has a limited zone of clarity and a vast region of what is
> called a 'fuscum subnegrum', its dark zone. A damned soul is eternally
> damned because it continually choses for the one thing that is
> its greatest
> point of desire:its whole universe is directed, pointed to its hatred of
> God. This ultimate obsession is the only thing that constitutes
> this soul's
> zone of clarity and because of the eternal divide of the constant
> amount of
> information that is the case in the Leibniz system, these poor souls leave
> other souls more 'room' for expansion of their zones of clarity.
Cool. Leibniz rules, eh? Newton was white bread compared with Leibniz.
> ps: received work from turkey's ozcan turkmen the other day. he is a
> programmer-poet. he is working out a notion of "entropic poetry". very
> interestin stuff.
>
> —–
> Would you have an URL on him, decompressable to less Turkish and more
> English than what Google shows?
I do, but I'm not sure it's public yet. I'll check.
Such is the thrill of the Internet: to receive notions of entropic poetry
from a poet-programmer from Istanbul! Borges might smile.
ja
Vax value Vietnam,
VP veering VESA,
VP vaginas versionable,
Verbs Vmatrix.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Wednesday were widehat Wales,
Wharton wanna-be WYSIWYG,
Winston Churchill wank WOULD webmasters,
.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Xml xiipt ,
xml XORs,
xxx xor,
.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
Yds yen ,
Y2K yuck ,
yesterday yacc,
.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
>Sorry, Dirk, I'm not really following you, but I do know that if you
>compress a compressed message, you will get something that is much the same
>size as the compressed message.
Sure, but you were relating amounts of information as contained within a
binary system to amounts of information as contained within textual messages
to suggest that seemingly (?) random text messages may actually contain more
information.
That's what is happening a lot: the ease with which we transcode
mathematical usefull constructs to the field of human interaction, to the
point of reducing meaning to what is calculable. I'm not saying that meaning
finally can't be made calculable or trying to rescue the artistic from the
scrutiny of science or (whatever) that it would be a bad thing if that were
so, I'm just trying to stress the fact that any calculation implies a
reduction because it takes time: a calculation is also an event in the same
continuum of informed matter and, furthermore, that we tend to forget what
fiction our calculations are based on, where the human factor is decisive
for the validation of calculated results.
So I took the liberty of using the information that is likewise
allegorically compressed in the word 'compression' to include 'any kind of
algorhytmic optimising of a message for transmitting that message in a given
system', hence my use of 'compressions of compressions'.
Even if you generate your words at random from a dictionary, the fact that
text messages get read (or could get read) enhances the information
contained within them in a natural way because words _do_ things to each
other while being positioned/read/sent/received. I don't see an easy way to
beat the meaning out of words, not even if they are uncalled for like these
messages. And the generating of meaning includes a surplus of information
that should be accounted for in the calcul of that information. The Shannon
article doesn't remain the same article, not even compressed to the 437 kb
or so zipped pdf-file. If it would remain the same, our scientists would
still be drawing triangles in the sand, like Pythagoras. Not too sure its
real 'progress' though. But information is never static or totally
abstracted from meaning in my view, because the process of abstracting it
generates meaning itself.
Now you could say that the textual surplus of information is virtual in the
same way as any strain of 1's and 0's in the random message could be
virtually meaningful, but then you're coming dangerously close to Cathedral
Building Theory because that's where any piece of information is only truly
calculable as an event: "What we call virtual is not some thing that lacks
reality, but [a thing] that engages itself in a process of actualisation
following the plane that gives it its reality (lui donne sa realite
propre).". Code is text too, it happens in similar ways. Perhaps if we deal
with code as events more, we get to solve some problems more efficiently.
Its more a unity of movement that I'm trying to make clear, I really
shouldn't be doing this outside my very limited region of clarity.
apologies,
dv
> you were relating amounts of information as contained within a
> binary system to amounts of information as contained within
> textual messages
> to suggest that seemingly (?) random text messages may actually
> contain more
> information.
yes, that's right. in shannon's information theory, 'information' is not to
be confused with 'meaning'. in his paper at
http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/ms/what/shannonday/paper.html , shannon says
"….Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are
correlated according to some system with certain physical or conceptual
entities. These semantic aspects of communication are irrelevant to the
engineering problem." In his theory, 'information' is measured basically by
how big a file is after it has been compressed. Which has very little, if
anything, to do with the 'meaning' of the message. It happens that totally
random messages contain more 'information', in the shannonian sense, than
patterned messages.
> That's what is happening a lot: the ease with which we transcode
> mathematical usefull constructs to the field of human interaction, to the
> point of reducing meaning to what is calculable. I'm not saying
> that meaning
> finally can't be made calculable or trying to rescue the artistic from the
> scrutiny of science or (whatever) that it would be a bad thing if
> that were
> so, I'm just trying to stress the fact that any calculation implies a
> reduction because it takes time: a calculation is also an event
> in the same
> continuum of informed matter and, furthermore, that we tend to
> forget what
> fiction our calculations are based on, where the human factor is decisive
> for the validation of calculated results.
>
> So I took the liberty of using the information that is likewise
> allegorically compressed in the word 'compression' to include 'any kind of
> algorhytmic optimising of a message for transmitting that message
> in a given
> system', hence my use of 'compressions of compressions'.
>
> Even if you generate your words at random from a dictionary, the fact that
> text messages get read (or could get read) enhances the information
> contained within them in a natural way because words _do_ things to each
> other while being positioned/read/sent/received. I don't see an
> easy way to
> beat the meaning out of words, not even if they are uncalled for
> like these
> messages.
Beat the meaning out of words? O don't get me started or I'll be building a
weird machine to do it. Whack them with a plank until the meanometer reaches
0. Clips of Bush using his favorite words such as 'democracy' and 'freedom'
might do it.
> And the generating of meaning includes a surplus of information
> that should be accounted for in the calcul of that information.
I agree that 'meaning' is 'information', in an important sense, but it isn't
'information' in the shannonian sense. information theory is not at all
concerned with semantics. though semantics is of course a fascinating
subject. one that we seemingly haven't mathematized in any usefully deep
theory. one that does not seem amenable to such vast generalizations, as you
say.
information theory sort of treats the materiality of language, or aspects of
the materiality of language. language as information. information as data
stream or string. language or letters as entities/material processed by
machines. concerned with transmission and reception (being able to send and
receive messages) but not concerned with the meaning at all. not saying word
one about meaning.
so how does shannonian information theory relate to 'meaning'? it doesn't.
at all, really. it doesn't say anything about it. that, apparently, is up to
people, not machines. so far, anyway. so far, so good. AI is still without
grand semantic theories (as far as I know, which isn't far) or, as
Wittgenstein said, "Meaning is what an explanation of meaning explains."
ja
http://vispo.com
> so how does shannonian information theory relate to 'meaning'? it doesn't.
> at all, really. it doesn't say anything about it. that, apparently, is up
> to
> people, not machines. so far, anyway. so far, so good. AI is still without
> grand semantic theories (as far as I know, which isn't far) or, as
> Wittgenstein said, "Meaning is what an explanation of meaning explains."
> ja
> http://vispo.com
Well that's just it. The way research on Semantic Web is going and how the
'modern' approach to AI is laid out, the construction of meaning won't be up
to humans exclusively anymore (in some ways that is already so, for some
views it has never been so). That is, if some advocates of the feasibility
of constructing an upper ontology have their way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology_%28computer_science%29
The arguments listed in the paragraph 'Why an upper ontology is feasible'
are exemplary in their pragmatic and logicist reasoning:
There's a strong belief within research groups that once you do away with
'the conflation of ontology, language and knowledge', you're left with
computable conceptual objects that make the construction of _the_ upper
ontology possible. Now this is where the computer science field of
'ontology' starts invading the philosophical field of ontology, where the
names become omens, because those conceptual objects and such statements on
them only make sense in a formalist ontology based on second order logic
(Frege, Hartman,…).
In the philosophical tradition that is a very one-sided approach (*) , so
what is being done in some reseach centers is that all 'Continental',
heuristic approaches to the same 'conflation of ontology, language and
knowledge' is thrown overboard as apparent nonsense. One strain in our rich
philosophical tradition is therefore economically promoted to the standard
to which any system should adhere.
I speak of 'invasion' because it has the potential of becoming a threat to
what you indicate with 'so far so good'. It has that potential because the
approach that is advocated here will obviously lead to some immediate
successes, therefore they are backed by very un-theoretical, very real
economic power, so what could be called the 'war of competing standards' is
really over before it started.
In a larger, socio-political sense you could (my present opinion: should)
interpret this as the ultimate star wars program for the capitalist system:
an impenetrable ontological shield of defense against the feeble human voice
of differenciation. Zooming in on "the clear and present danger" of
terrorism: it may be exactly that kind of bolstering of economical power and
its subsequent systematic negation of ontological difference that actually
invokes the acts of terrorism: the only escape route out of never being
validated in claims of injustice, because they 're not using the standard
ontology. Beware: that's a possible 'meaning', not a justification.
In that sense Bush is not using words devoid of meaning at all: his use of
'freedom' and 'democracy' succesfully invoke the ontological standard, a
virtual system that is establishing its reality and prohibiting the 'free'
use of natural language more thoroughly every day. In that sense the 'war of
standards' already ended in 1989, and my humble attempts to construct
alternatives are post-historic and rather hilarious.
Finally, and luckily, these ontological mechanisms of stratification are
procedural themselves and much can be expected of the economic
'endorsement'of ontological schemes coming from the equally rich Eastern
tradition. I can't resist referring to a historical parallel of Leibniz
taking his system on a promotional tour to China here.
Anyway, thanks for the discussion.
dv
http://www.vilt.net/nkdee
(*) Indeed many of the early twentieth century philosophers in this
tradition were considered of marginal importance until they were
'rediscovered' because of their 'usefulness' in formal ontological schemes.
Aka are accentedsymbol America,
AYH abortifacients AFAIK,
AD abide alt-c,
Adjectives Arrowvert.
http://spam.trashconnection.com/
> The way research on Semantic Web is going and how the
> 'modern' approach to AI is laid out, the construction of meaning
> won't be up
> to humans exclusively anymore (in some ways that is already so, for some
> views it has never been so). That is, if some advocates of the feasibility
> of constructing an upper ontology have their way.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology_%28computer_science%29
That's a terrific link, Dirk, thanks very much. Fascinating stuff.
The notion of an 'upper ontology' is new to me and interesting from many
points of view, isn't it. Philosophically. Politically.
Mathematically/logically.
If I understand the notion as outlined in the article, then were there to be
any agreement on a standard 'upper ontology', it would have to be quite a
powerful abstraction which would be independent of any particular natural
language. Independent in the sense that the upper ontology could work with
any given language or even multiple languages (like people do). It would
also have to be independent of any particular collection of facts
(knowledge), just as people may differ concerning what is factual.
Otherwise, there is no real possibility of any concensus concerning an
'upper ontology'. It would have to be sufficiently flexible to permit any
desirable world view to evolve from the ontology. Just as our world views
evolve from our shared innate capacities when we are born, ie, it seems
likely that all humans have roughly the same mental hardware and
software–though of course they can be configured in vastly different ways
'out of the box' (at birth), not to mention the ways we change over years of
experience. An acceptably general 'upper ontology' would have to come close
to modelling many of the fundamental mental capacities of humans at birth,
wouldn't it? Or if not the fundamental mental capacities of humans at birth,
then the capacities of humans more or less independent of their age?
I'll have to check out some of the example ontologies they mention.
Have you been delving into this stuff for a while, Dirk?
ja
http://vispo.com
Quite a while yes. First of all professionally because i was involved in a
commercial project that required me to do some research to see if we could
use some of the techniques based on ontologies, next artistically and,
within my limits, philosophically because, well, it's all rather
mindblowing.
One of my difficulties in communicating about my Cathedral project is that
very few people in the artistic branche seem to be aware of the status in
this field, let alone of the implications. Some of my statements will sound
real awkward if you don't know about these things, I can imagine.
I don't have the time right now to respond to your first conjectures on the
subject, will try later…
greetings,
dv
—–Original Message—–
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Jim Andrews
Sent: woensdag 21 september 2005 12:02
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: RHIZOME_RAW: PLEASE DO NOT SPAM ART
> The way research on Semantic Web is going and how the
> 'modern' approach to AI is laid out, the construction of meaning
> won't be up
> to humans exclusively anymore (in some ways that is already so, for some
> views it has never been so). That is, if some advocates of the feasibility
> of constructing an upper ontology have their way.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology_%28computer_science%29
That's a terrific link, Dirk, thanks very much. Fascinating stuff.
The notion of an 'upper ontology' is new to me and interesting from many
points of view, isn't it. Philosophically. Politically.
Mathematically/logically.
If I understand the notion as outlined in the article, then were there to be
any agreement on a standard 'upper ontology', it would have to be quite a
powerful abstraction which would be independent of any particular natural
language. Independent in the sense that the upper ontology could work with
any given language or even multiple languages (like people do). It would
also have to be independent of any particular collection of facts
(knowledge), just as people may differ concerning what is factual.
Otherwise, there is no real possibility of any concensus concerning an
'upper ontology'. It would have to be sufficiently flexible to permit any
desirable world view to evolve from the ontology. Just as our world views
evolve from our shared innate capacities when we are born, ie, it seems
likely that all humans have roughly the same mental hardware and
software–though of course they can be configured in vastly different ways
'out of the box' (at birth), not to mention the ways we change over years of
experience. An acceptably general 'upper ontology' would have to come close
to modelling many of the fundamental mental capacities of humans at birth,
wouldn't it? Or if not the fundamental mental capacities of humans at birth,
then the capacities of humans more or less independent of their age?
I'll have to check out some of the example ontologies they mention.
Have you been delving into this stuff for a while, Dirk?
ja
http://vispo.com
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AD absoultely alt-f10,
Apostrophes AA.
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Ansi are address Austria,
Australasia acculturation ARPA,
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Cassini carboy CRCs,
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UTC uncopyrighted Usenet,
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ﻹҖ&
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Quoting [email protected]:
> Miscellaneous This Agreement constitutes the entire agreement between
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> mailia
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> trashconnection <[email protected]> wrote:
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> >http://spam.trashconnection.com/
> >+
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Quoting [email protected]:
> TRASHCONNECTION - please do not spam art. … TRASHCONNECTION - please do not
> spam art. TRASHCONNECTION - please do not spam art …
> SUBJECT:, RHIZOME_RAW: PLEASE DO NOT SPAM ART. SENDER:, trashconnection
> ;wwwtrashconnectioncom;. NEWSGROUPS:, RHIZOME_RAW …
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> http://spam.trashconnection.com/. …
>
> mailia
>
> trashconnection <[email protected]> wrote:
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> >http://spam.trashconnection.com/
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Quoting [email protected]:
> ja ; http://vispo.com ; ; ; ; + ; -; post: [email protected] ; -; questions:
> [email protected] … —–Original Message—– From: [email protected]
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> post: [email protected] -; questions: [email protected] -;
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> trashconnection <[email protected]> wrote:
> > )Ω₤☼ẫ∏_9ش/Љ∏>7_:;Ǿ@
> >
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> >http://spam.trashconnection.com/
> >+
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> >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
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>
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Quoting [email protected]:
> Public health officials preparing to battle what they view as an inevitable
> influenza pandemic say the world lacks the medical weapons to fight the
> disease …
> Apple: Why not set .Mac free? Posted by Dan Farber @ 12:27 pm. The Macworld
> Steve Jobs keynotes are a good way to start the year. Jobs tends to set the
> bar …
> APA Press Release: New study claims that personality is not set by the age of
> 30 and can change throughout life.
>
> mailia
>
> trashconnection <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Please do not spam!!
> >Please do not spam!!
> >Please do not spam!!
> >Please do not spam!!
> >Please do not spam!!
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> >+
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> >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> >Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >
> >
>
Ω~$ 2ت₤Ə←/*◊Ơ☻Ỡ◊:Ə=Э
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6[شǾÞ{‡Җﷲ/?←=Ứﻹ!0‡↕E
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;№$*]}₪←Ω/╚[[Þ₪Þ‰ﷲ}|
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Quoting [email protected]:
> Which OS Are You? By Brian Briggs. Take this quiz to find out which OS most
> matches your personality. You need to answer all the questions to get an …
> Are You Ready? provides a step-by-step approach to disaster preparedness by
> … Are You Ready? also provides in-depth information on specific hazards
> …
> The Library of Congress THOMAS site provides a description of the legislative
> process and House rules in ;How Our Laws are Made,; by House
> Parliamentarian, …
>
> mailia
>
> trashconnection <[email protected]> wrote:
> > ;№$*]}₪←Ω/╚[[Þ₪Þ‰ﷲ}|
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >http://spam.trashconnection.com/
> >+
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Quoting [email protected]:
> There are ways out of this situation; there are actual ways to move the
> slider bar from one side to the other, except that we … New to Rhizome?
> Join now! …
> There are ways out of this situation; there are actual ways to move the
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> Join now! …
> Sunlight to the rhizome is useful for good performance and disease
> prevention. Drying out does not hurt a rhizome unless taken to the extreme.
> …
>
> mailia
>
> trashconnection <[email protected]> wrote:
> > 6[شǾÞ{‡Җﷲ/?←=Ứﻹ!0‡↕E
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >http://spam.trashconnection.com/
> >+
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> >-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
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> >
> >
>
Quoting [email protected]:
> Practice in public. It is hard distilling work down to 20 or 30 minutes.
> Prepare. See David Patterson's How to Give a Bad Talk …
> What to focus on and why, slide tips, using examples, pruning, and getting
> feedback.
> So you've been asked to give a talk in front of a seminar–or possibly in
> front of a much larger audience. Or maybe you've been giving lots of
> talks, …
>
> mailia
>
> trashconnection <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Ω~$ 2ت₤Ə←/*◊Ơ☻Ỡ◊:Ə=Э
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >http://spam.trashconnection.com/
> >+
> >-> post: [email protected]
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> >-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
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> >
> >
>
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April are addvspace Australian,
AYH acoustical AVI,
AD acceptable alt-f4,
Adverbs Alph.
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Quoting [email protected]:
> Have you read and understand the FLORA.org terms and conditions? As a list
> manager you will be the one that would be asked questions if any arise, …
> We are discouraging repeat questions. The Cygwin mailing list is a very high
> volume list. … and 4) you intend on being a long-term contributor. …
> VACETS-DICT: QUESTIONS YOU MAY LIKE TO ASK (27/03/95). Table of contents;
> WHAT IS VACETS-DICT? HOW TO SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE THIS LIST? WHO WILL
> BENEFIT? …
>
> mailia
>
> trashconnection <[email protected]> wrote:
> > April are addvspace Australian,
> >AYH acoustical AVI,
> >AD acceptable alt-f4,
> >Adverbs Alph.
> >
> >http://spam.trashconnection.com/
> >+
> >-> post: [email protected]
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> >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> >Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >
> >
>
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RHIZOME IS WITH YOU
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