If I'm already drowning in banality, why do I need more of it (N.C. Mountain Fair)

http://www.theconnection.org/shows/2003/07/20030715_b_main.asp

-e.



—– Original Message —–
From: "Ivan Pope" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; "Curt Cloninger" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 5:55 PM
Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: If I'm already drowning in banality, why do I need
more of it (N.C. Mountain Fair)


> —– Original Message —–
> From: "Curt Cloninger" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: N.C. Mountain State Fair to Celebrate 10th
> Birthday in 2003
>
>
> > "You have not studied Joyce or Baudelaire yet, or you would have no
> > problems in understanding my procedure. I have no theories whatever
> > about anything. I make observations by way of discovering contours,
> > lines of force, and pressures. I satirize at all times, and my
> > hyperboles are as nothing compared to the events to which they refer."
> >
> > - Marshall Mathers McLuhan
> >
> > http://k10k.net/wulffmorgenthaler/large/370_carpet_covers_hal.gif
> >
> From: "Curt Cloninger" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 10:24 PM
> Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: towards a more ambient art
>
> > Not that everything has to be Tolstoy. But when so few things even
> > attempt to be Tolstoy and so many things are content to be Bazooka
> > Joe Bubble Gum Cartoons, it gets kind of boring for ye olde art
> > patron. The Cliff's Notes artist would say, "I'm just echoing the
> > meaninglessness and frivolity of our post-modern culture." Well why
> > on earth would you want to do that? If I'm already drowning in
> > banality, why do I need more of it?
>
> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

Ivan
I think that although here you do deploy Curt's quote
quite effectively against him, there is a third
alternative which is neither irony nor banality and
that is that none of us who make work do it entirely
with our conscious minds and that all sorts of weird
and wonderful stuff makes its way in there eventually
at some remove.
In a way your web cam pieces,Ivan, are about
transforming the banal into the extraordinary.
I seem to have spent my entire life so far raising
kids, with concomitant restrictions on my freedom of
movement and other activities , so for a five year
period in the not too distant past I hardly went
anywhere except to shop, feed ducks and see Disney
films.
Equally since my mother's death last year I've become
quite gripped by bits of paper that surface in my
Dad's house -letters from the Methodist Church my Mum
went to, shopping lists, utter trivia.
At some point and in some way I think this experience
surfaces in the things I make and what I do
*consciously* want is to be neither ironic or
sentimental about it.
Now you could reply with justification that this is
fair enough, but that I don't post extracts from the
Harlow Citizen small ads on Rhizome.
True - but the above leads me to understand why
without a particle of irony, or feeling that it is
banal, or without some horrible "tell us the good news
about real folk" feeling, the offending article
represents a bit of found art which I personally found
more engaging than at least some of the posts which
find their way onto the list purporting to be 'about'
art.
Lenin wrote a thing once which is both blindingly
obvious and profound -"Everything is connected"
I think this is true and that artists should be able
to extract a wider meaning from even the most marginal
and insignificant thing.
best
michael

— Ivan Pope <[email protected]> wrote:
> —– Original Message —–
> From: "Curt Cloninger" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: N.C. Mountain State Fair
> to Celebrate 10th
> Birthday in 2003
>
>
> > "You have not studied Joyce or Baudelaire yet, or
> you would have no
> > problems in understanding my procedure. I have no
> theories whatever
> > about anything. I make observations by way of
> discovering contours,
> > lines of force, and pressures. I satirize at all
> times, and my
> > hyperboles are as nothing compared to the events
> to which they refer."
> >
> > - Marshall Mathers McLuhan
> >
> >
>
http://k10k.net/wulffmorgenthaler/large/370_carpet_covers_hal.gif
> >
> From: "Curt Cloninger" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 10:24 PM
> Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: towards a more ambient art
>
> > Not that everything has to be Tolstoy. But when
> so few things even
> > attempt to be Tolstoy and so many things are
> content to be Bazooka
> > Joe Bubble Gum Cartoons, it gets kind of boring
> for ye olde art
> > patron. The Cliff's Notes artist would say, "I'm
> just echoing the
> > meaninglessness and frivolity of our post-modern
> culture." Well why
> > on earth would you want to do that? If I'm
> already drowning in
> > banality, why do I need more of it?
>
> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at
http://rhizome.org/info/29.php


__________________________________
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Michael,
Well, I do agree with all of what you say. But it all depends on context.
Trivia can be converted into art. I collect all sorts of meaningless trash,
keep it, wait for the day when it will fall into place.
But, trivia is not in itself art. When I got the posting from Curt I read it
and then wondered how I was supposed to respond to it. As it didn't contain
any overt clues to its intent, I went back and looked at Curt's previous
postings to the list. And yes, he has posted occasionally small bits of
detritus (in the non pejorative sense). But the previous postings didn't
really give any pointers to posting an announcement for a county fair.
I scanned the posting again for the punchline, the moment of madness that
reveals the intent.
But came there none. So I took it as a promotional posting for whatever
reason and reacted as such. Overreacted, maybe.
Then Curt comes back with a posting that seems to imply that the mote is in
my own eye. Now, this posting is more interesting.
Curt's quote comes from McLuhan via Wired in 1996 and seems to have been
used on Rhizome before. Curt attributes it to Marshall Mathers McLuhan,
which is a fun sort of crossover name, I guess. And he affixes a link to a
mildly interesting and mildly related web page.
So I go back and read some of Curt's previous postings, because I didn't
have him down as the sort of person to play these head games. And I find the
quote that I throw back at Curt about drowning in banality.
I think it comes down to this. It's not up to me or anyone else to call
anyone's approach to work on whether or not it is art. But anyone making art
must (and in this case, does) just deal with what it throws up. End of
story.

Cheers,
Ivan

BTW, Michael, when you say this 'the offending article represents a bit of
found art ' I disagree that there is such a thing as 'found art'.




> Ivan
> I think that although here you do deploy Curt's quote
> quite effectively against him, there is a third
> alternative which is neither irony nor banality and
> that is that none of us who make work do it entirely
> with our conscious minds and that all sorts of weird
> and wonderful stuff makes its way in there eventually
> at some remove.
> In a way your web cam pieces,Ivan, are about
> transforming the banal into the extraordinary.
> I seem to have spent my entire life so far raising
> kids, with concomitant restrictions on my freedom of
> movement and other activities , so for a five year
> period in the not too distant past I hardly went
> anywhere except to shop, feed ducks and see Disney
> films.
> Equally since my mother's death last year I've become
> quite gripped by bits of paper that surface in my
> Dad's house -letters from the Methodist Church my Mum
> went to, shopping lists, utter trivia.
> At some point and in some way I think this experience
> surfaces in the things I make and what I do
> *consciously* want is to be neither ironic or
> sentimental about it.
> Now you could reply with justification that this is
> fair enough, but that I don't post extracts from the
> Harlow Citizen small ads on Rhizome.
> True - but the above leads me to understand why
> without a particle of irony, or feeling that it is
> banal, or without some horrible "tell us the good news
> about real folk" feeling, the offending article
> represents a bit of found art which I personally found
> more engaging than at least some of the posts which
> find their way onto the list purporting to be 'about'
> art.
> Lenin wrote a thing once which is both blindingly
> obvious and profound -"Everything is connected"
> I think this is true and that artists should be able
> to extract a wider meaning from even the most marginal
> and insignificant thing.
> best
> michael
>
> — Ivan Pope <[email protected]> wrote:
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: "Curt Cloninger" <[email protected]>
> > Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: N.C. Mountain State Fair
> > to Celebrate 10th
> > Birthday in 2003
> >
> >
> > > "You have not studied Joyce or Baudelaire yet, or
> > you would have no
> > > problems in understanding my procedure. I have no
> > theories whatever
> > > about anything. I make observations by way of
> > discovering contours,
> > > lines of force, and pressures. I satirize at all
> > times, and my
> > > hyperboles are as nothing compared to the events
> > to which they refer."
> > >
> > > - Marshall Mathers McLuhan
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://k10k.net/wulffmorgenthaler/large/370_carpet_covers_hal.gif
> > >
> > From: "Curt Cloninger" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 10:24 PM
> > Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: towards a more ambient art
> >
> > > Not that everything has to be Tolstoy. But when
> > so few things even
> > > attempt to be Tolstoy and so many things are
> > content to be Bazooka
> > > Joe Bubble Gum Cartoons, it gets kind of boring
> > for ye olde art
> > > patron. The Cliff's Notes artist would say, "I'm
> > just echoing the
> > > meaninglessness and frivolity of our post-modern
> > culture." Well why
> > > on earth would you want to do that? If I'm
> > already drowning in
> > > banality, why do I need more of it?
> >
> > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> > -> post: [email protected]
> > -> questions: [email protected]
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> > out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at
> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

http://www.kidbrothers.net/guitar/tcg.html

_


At 3:19 AM -0400 7/16/03, Eryk Salvaggio wrote:
>http://www.theconnection.org/shows/2003/07/20030715_b_main.asp
>
>-e.
>
>
>
>—– Original Message —–
>From: "Ivan Pope" <[email protected]>
>To: <[email protected]>; "Curt Cloninger" <[email protected]>
>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 5:55 PM
>Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: If I'm already drowning in banality, why do I need
>more of it (N.C. Mountain Fair)
>
>
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: "Curt Cloninger" <[email protected]>
> > Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: N.C. Mountain State Fair to Celebrate 10th
> > Birthday in 2003
> >
> >
> > > "You have not studied Joyce or Baudelaire yet, or you would have no
> > > problems in understanding my procedure. I have no theories whatever
> > > about anything. I make observations by way of discovering contours,
> > > lines of force, and pressures. I satirize at all times, and my
> > > hyperboles are as nothing compared to the events to which they refer."
> > >
> > > - Marshall Mathers McLuhan
> > >
> > > http://k10k.net/wulffmorgenthaler/large/370_carpet_covers_hal.gif
> > >
> > From: "Curt Cloninger" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 10:24 PM
> > Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: towards a more ambient art
> >
> > > Not that everything has to be Tolstoy. But when so few things even
> > > attempt to be Tolstoy and so many things are content to be Bazooka
> > > Joe Bubble Gum Cartoons, it gets kind of boring for ye olde art
> > > patron. The Cliff's Notes artist would say, "I'm just echoing the
> > > meaninglessness and frivolity of our post-modern culture." Well why
> > > on earth would you want to do that? If I'm already drowning in
> > > banality, why do I need more of it?
> >
> > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> > -> post: [email protected]
> > -> questions: [email protected]
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >

http://www.lab404.com/plotfracture/sop/

_


>Ivan
>I think that although here you do deploy Curt's quote
>quite effectively against him, there is a third
>alternative which is neither irony nor banality and
>that is that none of us who make work do it entirely
>with our conscious minds and that all sorts of weird
>and wonderful stuff makes its way in there eventually
>at some remove.
>In a way your web cam pieces,Ivan, are about
>transforming the banal into the extraordinary.
>I seem to have spent my entire life so far raising
>kids, with concomitant restrictions on my freedom of
>movement and other activities , so for a five year
>period in the not too distant past I hardly went
>anywhere except to shop, feed ducks and see Disney
>films.
>Equally since my mother's death last year I've become
>quite gripped by bits of paper that surface in my
>Dad's house -letters from the Methodist Church my Mum
>went to, shopping lists, utter trivia.
>At some point and in some way I think this experience
>surfaces in the things I make and what I do
>*consciously* want is to be neither ironic or
>sentimental about it.
>Now you could reply with justification that this is
>fair enough, but that I don't post extracts from the
>Harlow Citizen small ads on Rhizome.
>True - but the above leads me to understand why
>without a particle of irony, or feeling that it is
>banal, or without some horrible "tell us the good news
>about real folk" feeling, the offending article
>represents a bit of found art which I personally found
>more engaging than at least some of the posts which
>find their way onto the list purporting to be 'about'
>art.
>Lenin wrote a thing once which is both blindingly
>obvious and profound -"Everything is connected"
>I think this is true and that artists should be able
>to extract a wider meaning from even the most marginal
>and insignificant thing.
>best
>michael
>
>— Ivan Pope <[email protected]> wrote:
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: "Curt Cloninger" <[email protected]>
> > Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: N.C. Mountain State Fair
> > to Celebrate 10th
> > Birthday in 2003
> >
> >
> > > "You have not studied Joyce or Baudelaire yet, or
> > you would have no
> > > problems in understanding my procedure. I have no
> > theories whatever
> > > about anything. I make observations by way of
> > discovering contours,
> > > lines of force, and pressures. I satirize at all
> > times, and my
> > > hyperboles are as nothing compared to the events
> > to which they refer."
> > >
> > > - Marshall Mathers McLuhan
> > >
> > >
> >
>http://k10k.net/wulffmorgenthaler/large/370_carpet_covers_hal.gif
> > >
> > From: "Curt Cloninger" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 10:24 PM
> > Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: towards a more ambient art
> >
> > > Not that everything has to be Tolstoy. But when
> > so few things even
> > > attempt to be Tolstoy and so many things are
> > content to be Bazooka
> > > Joe Bubble Gum Cartoons, it gets kind of boring
> > for ye olde art
> > > patron. The Cliff's Notes artist would say, "I'm
> > just echoing the
> > > meaninglessness and frivolity of our post-modern
> > culture." Well why
> > > on earth would you want to do that? If I'm
> > already drowning in
> > > banality, why do I need more of it?
> >
> > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> > -> post: [email protected]
> > -> questions: [email protected]
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> > out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at
>http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>http://sbc.yahoo.com

That sequence is utterly wonderful, Curt.
best
michael
— Curt Cloninger <[email protected]> wrote:
> http://www.lab404.com/plotfracture/sop/
>
> _
>
>
> >Ivan
> >I think that although here you do deploy Curt's
> quote
> >quite effectively against him, there is a third
> >alternative which is neither irony nor banality and
> >that is that none of us who make work do it
> entirely
> >with our conscious minds and that all sorts of
> weird
> >and wonderful stuff makes its way in there
> eventually
> >at some remove.
> >In a way your web cam pieces,Ivan, are about
> >transforming the banal into the extraordinary.
> >I seem to have spent my entire life so far raising
> >kids, with concomitant restrictions on my freedom
> of
> >movement and other activities , so for a five year
> >period in the not too distant past I hardly went
> >anywhere except to shop, feed ducks and see Disney
> >films.
> >Equally since my mother's death last year I've
> become
> >quite gripped by bits of paper that surface in my
> >Dad's house -letters from the Methodist Church my
> Mum
> >went to, shopping lists, utter trivia.
> >At some point and in some way I think this
> experience
> >surfaces in the things I make and what I do
> >*consciously* want is to be neither ironic or
> >sentimental about it.
> >Now you could reply with justification that this is
> >fair enough, but that I don't post extracts from
> the
> >Harlow Citizen small ads on Rhizome.
> >True - but the above leads me to understand why
> >without a particle of irony, or feeling that it is
> >banal, or without some horrible "tell us the good
> news
> >about real folk" feeling, the offending article
> >represents a bit of found art which I personally
> found
> >more engaging than at least some of the posts which
> >find their way onto the list purporting to be
> 'about'
> >art.
> >Lenin wrote a thing once which is both blindingly
> >obvious and profound -"Everything is connected"
> >I think this is true and that artists should be
> able
> >to extract a wider meaning from even the most
> marginal
> >and insignificant thing.
> >best
> >michael
> >
> >— Ivan Pope <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > —– Original Message —–
> > > From: "Curt Cloninger" <[email protected]>
> > > Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: N.C. Mountain State
> Fair
> > > to Celebrate 10th
> > > Birthday in 2003
> > >
> > >
> > > > "You have not studied Joyce or Baudelaire yet,
> or
> > > you would have no
> > > > problems in understanding my procedure. I
> have no
> > > theories whatever
> > > > about anything. I make observations by way of
> > > discovering contours,
> > > > lines of force, and pressures. I satirize at
> all
> > > times, and my
> > > > hyperboles are as nothing compared to the
> events
> > > to which they refer."
> > > >
> > > > - Marshall Mathers McLuhan
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
>
>http://k10k.net/wulffmorgenthaler/large/370_carpet_covers_hal.gif
> > > >
> > > From: "Curt Cloninger" <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 10:24 PM
> > > Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: towards a more ambient art
> > >
> > > > Not that everything has to be Tolstoy. But
> when
> > > so few things even
> > > > attempt to be Tolstoy and so many things are
> > > content to be Bazooka
> > > > Joe Bubble Gum Cartoons, it gets kind of
> boring
> > > for ye olde art
> > > > patron. The Cliff's Notes artist would say,
> "I'm
> > > just echoing the
> > > > meaninglessness and frivolity of our
> post-modern
> > > culture." Well why
> > > > on earth would you want to do that? If I'm
> > > already drowning in
> > > > banality, why do I need more of it?
> > >
> > > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> > > -> post: [email protected]
> > > -> questions: [email protected]
> > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > > +
> > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms
> set
> > > out in the
> > > Membership Agreement available online at
> >http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >
> >
> >__________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> >http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at
http://rhizome.org/info/29.php


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