Re: Get your "NO WAR" on

Artists can obviously make a response to war, but there is little point in
them ranting about how bad they think it all is.

'Even worse is to get all introspective, 'oh god, I am so impotent in the
face of all this horribleness'. Yes we are, but so what, we always were.

If you believe in art and in your art, you need to go on doing what you have
always done and not become an activist just because there is this
overwhelming media story about.'

Couldn't agree more. If you want to be a polittician, go be one. If you want
to be a protest marcher, go be one. I f you want to instigate social changes,
go and do it. Just don't please delude yourself you can change the world
through your 'art', especially in these days of cynicism (the general
public's cynicism towards art in particular). These days are gone, if indeed
they ever exsisted.

Art is not social work. Art is not even particularly socially relevant,
especially in it's 'highest' forms. The artist's role is not to reform the
world but reflect it, hopefully in new and thought provoking ways. To believe
otherwise is naivete at it's most extreme.

I wrote earlier (poss accidentally didn't post to the list en masse) that I
thought this was an art forum, not an american news forum. I am still
frustrated by the number of irrelevant links posted. This does not mean I am
politically unaware or hiding from the issues - I am just not convinced that
the american media's take on the upcoming conflict should be the main topic
for discussion on a new media arts forum.

Having said that, I would say that I watched 5 hours unadulterated uncensored
solid debate in the British house of commons yesterday prior to their vote to
go to war. I began watching sceptical, I came away asured that whatever I
thought of the decision made personally, those 600+ elected men and women had
crosssed political boundaries to wrestle with their own consciensces, the
views of their constituents, and the future consequences of their actions
before voting. They may not have made the decision I liked, but I was at
least reasssured that democracy lived, rhetoric still existed in the best
platonic sense, and that my home country at least did not decide their course
of action arbitrarily, dependent on the views of the few above the many.
Living in France as I do right now, I no longer need to hide my head in shame
as much…I don't think their actions have been particularly well thought out
or debated quite so extensively.

Enough said . Is this list about politics or art? they are not, however much
artists may like to believe it, in any way closely affiliated. Use your views
to feed your art, don't waste my PC time with links I can get elsewhere.

Fee
<A HREF="http://www.pbase.com/fee">http://www.pbase.com/fee</A>

On Wed, 19 Mar 2003, Ivan Pope wrote:

> War is obviously bad, but it is also interesting.

War is neither good, nor bad. Nor is it "interesting".
Your statement is equivalent to a kid poking itself
ina scar going 'aw" but it's interesting.

> War is ongoing, nothing is really about to start.

Is war "ongoing"?

> Artists can obviously make a response to war, but there is little point in
> them ranting about how bad they think it all is.

So many "obvious" nonsensical garbles.

> Even worse is to get all introspective, 'oh god, I am so impotent in the
> face of all this horribleness'. Yes we are, but so what, we always were.

Ah yes, internal numbing makes one so blase, cool and tough.
Actually no, not everybody *is* "impotent" and your attitude is
that of a resigned slave.


> If you believe

Bleat. Believing in angels and other such is bad,
but believing in equally bogus "art" is a-ok.

> in art and in your art, you need to go on doing what you have
> always done and not become an activist just because there is this
> overwhelming media story about.

Yes. *Not* becoming an activitist. The negativ of the positiv
is NOT the same (passive-aggressive) knee-jerk at all.

> War will provide you with a huge reservoir of material for your work if you
> want it.

And here comes the passive-aggressive "feeding hook".
Yes, huge reservoir of the suffering of others to
profiteer from. HUGE.

> If nothing else, you can examine your own brain patterns before,
> during and after the event.

Yes, you can be a brain mesmerised ape.

> Don't wear your heart on your sleeve.

Yes "dear" but one must BECOME a queen
before that applies, and the phrase refers to
conscious processes referring to faculties
you don't possess, as you're not automatically
born with them.

But we doubt you'll ever have the courage to
admit that you have no real capacity to
experience love, that is, your heart is asleep.
And it's no great esoteric secret that the
brain produces psycho-sexual impulses and
hormones which 99.99% of humans confuse
with "love".

Inner insensitivity + dullness and blase posturing
is the mark of the weak, not of a Queen mastering her
heart.

Eryk is not "wearing his heart on his sleeve".
What he is observing is actually his brain, as
most emotions originate there, and what you're
advocating to him is slave-stupor and self-destruction,
not "detachment" and freedom.

It is precisely because "mesmerization" with
"logical" or "emotional" or "physical / sexual"
parts of the body that the human never wakes up.

> Cheers,
> Ivan 'Only exist' Pope

How unfortunate that the above is bollocks.
"Just exist" uttered the corpse.
But you don't exist + are only an illusion
(and an impotent one). A marvellous lecon
indeed that being born with a penis
doesn't make one a man.

And it is this perpetuated existence
in illusion, apathy + boredom that is
strongly connected to source of what
humans "vulnerable" to be ridden by
bloodlust.

In other words, your posturing is akin
to that of a two year old who can't
"help" but stick his hand in the fire
*again* and *again* and *again*

*ow!* (but I can't do anything about it)
*ow!* (but I can't do anything about it)
*ow!* (but I can't do anything about it)

(you're right–as long as you're
stuck in "revolutions" and your brain
you can't do anything about it)

And all we want to know is what happened to
"I create and destroy worlds"

and your other

"Art is what the artist can get away with"

Let us see you REALLY get away with
influencing reality, instead of spinning
your wheelz and offering your
self-mesmerised stupor alternately as art
and as "wise advice"

tak.

A perfect illustration of a facet of the
"mechanism" of "why" until one has dealt
with one's own self, one has little capacity
of advising others (unless we are talking
about the "where is the bus-stop" kind
of "advice").

A bientot.

Clearly you'e have to be massively deluded to think
tht by one's art alone a difference can be made.
Artists are not ,however ,somehow magically insulated
from the world outside and I personally find it
heartening that there is so much discussion of that
outside world here - it's not like it excludes
discussion of art.
I don't understand why people think it's so difficult
to take a stand and simultaeneously be an artist -I
don't go to demos , or organizing committees or
whatever & say "I'm an artist" - I go as a human being
.
I absolutely agree that art is not at it's best when
it's simply agitational -that's why although I have
been deeply involved in the anti war movt, I've made
little work directly about it.
One last point over the "No War" page - fine - put up/
don't put up whatever you like -it's not a contest-
but if your conscience tells you this war is wrong
then do *something* about it.
A start would be the marches in NY and London ( and
I'm sure elsewhere) this Saturday.
regards
michael

— [email protected] wrote:
> Artists can obviously make a response to war, but
> there is little point in
> them ranting about how bad they think it all is.
>
> 'Even worse is to get all introspective, 'oh god, I
> am so impotent in the
> face of all this horribleness'. Yes we are, but so
> what, we always were.
>
> If you believe in art and in your art, you need to
> go on doing what you have
> always done and not become an activist just because
> there is this
> overwhelming media story about.'
>
> Couldn't agree more. If you want to be a
> polittician, go be one. If you want
> to be a protest marcher, go be one. I f you want to
> instigate social changes,
> go and do it. Just don't please delude yourself you
> can change the world
> through your 'art', especially in these days of
> cynicism (the general
> public's cynicism towards art in particular). These
> days are gone, if indeed
> they ever exsisted.
>
> Art is not social work. Art is not even
> particularly socially relevant,
> especially in it's 'highest' forms. The artist's
> role is not to reform the
> world but reflect it, hopefully in new and thought
> provoking ways. To believe
> otherwise is naivete at it's most extreme.
>
> I wrote earlier (poss accidentally didn't post to
> the list en masse) that I
> thought this was an art forum, not an american news
> forum. I am still
> frustrated by the number of irrelevant links posted.
> This does not mean I am
> politically unaware or hiding from the issues - I am
> just not convinced that
> the american media's take on the upcoming conflict
> should be the main topic
> for discussion on a new media arts forum.
>
> Having said that, I would say that I watched 5 hours
> unadulterated uncensored
> solid debate in the British house of commons
> yesterday prior to their vote to
> go to war. I began watching sceptical, I came away
> asured that whatever I
> thought of the decision made personally, those 600+
> elected men and women had
> crosssed political boundaries to wrestle with their
> own consciensces, the
> views of their constituents, and the future
> consequences of their actions
> before voting. They may not have made the decision I
> liked, but I was at
> least reasssured that democracy lived, rhetoric
> still existed in the best
> platonic sense, and that my home country at least
> did not decide their course
> of action arbitrarily, dependent on the views of the
> few above the many.
> Living in France as I do right now, I no longer need
> to hide my head in shame
> as much…I don't think their actions have been
> particularly well thought out
> or debated quite so extensively.
>
> Enough said . Is this list about politics or art?
> they are not, however much
> artists may like to believe it, in any way closely
> affiliated. Use your views
> to feed your art, don't waste my PC time with links
> I can get elsewhere.
>
> Fee
> <A
>
HREF="http://www.pbase.com/fee">http://www.pbase.com/fee</A>
>


=====
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Hi Ivan.


—– Original Message —–


> War is obviously bad, but it is also interesting.

I've been thinking about this, and I think it really isn't. Like there's
that stereolab song "Les Yper Sound," I don't know if you know it; "You Go
On That Team, I'll Go On This Team, Stigmatization, Okay, Now We Can Fight!"
It's not interesting as much as it is useless.

Also, I think good/bad is an idea of an ego, but I can't say I have let go
of that one yet. I mean I think that war is "bad," but I mostly think that I
am supposed to think war is "bad". I can create the idea that war is bad
deliberately out of a set of core values that I decide to take, but doing
that means that I would need to take full responsibility for ending war, and
I don't know if I am ready for that one yet. I would rather focus on a
couple other things first, like my own prescence with the world.


>
> War is ongoing, nothing is really about to start.


War is ongoing but only because everyone is always starting it. I mean I am
always starting them. I started one today with someone I claim to love
because she didn't love me in a way that I thought was the right way to love
me. So I mean, there you go, that's where all war comes from.


> Even worse is to get all introspective, 'oh god, I am so impotent in the
> face of all this horribleness'. Yes we are, but so what, we always were.

I think that line of thought is only 1/10th of my introspective process. I'm
not really saying I am impotent, but that I am unwilling to actually act. In
that sense you might say its an extrospective process in that I am looking
at how I impact the world- I don't. But there is a huge difference between
the two, I think. If I am unwilling to act, that means I could act, if I
chose to. I don't know if I have that power *yet*- the power to choose to do
anything and everything- but I have some power of choice, paradoxically, by
realizing _why_ I am impotent in the face of all this _________.

>
> If you believe in art and in your art, you need to go on doing what you
have
> always done and not become an activist just because there is this
> overwhelming media story about.


Ha. Believing in my art gets me into all kinds of trouble. Because if I
believe in my art I have to be kind of careful, or else I could just believe
in whatever internal system I was using my art to perpetuate and recruit
people into. I mean, I have always identified as an artist as an activist.
Now I am starting to wonder about both. As an artist I am slightly less full
of shit than I am with activism. I want to choose to be an artist again but
I am wondering if I am ready really, because there is a lot of
responsibility with what type of artist I would actually want to be.

I think a major flaw with my past art has been that it has been largely
reactive. The stuff people respond to the least I tend to like the most. So
maybe I won't have a career per se. I mean I would like to make art that can
generate. But wow, you know, like, who the hell can do that, seriously?

on 20/3/03 10:04 am, Eryk Salvaggio at [email protected] wrote:

Eryk,
Thanks for the considered reply. Of course, my email wasn't aimed at you in
any specific way. I was just getting a bit peeved with the flow of 'war,
bad, bad, war, no, no' messages that are flooding Rhizome (though of course
this is not surprising considering the media blitz on it).
Actually, your postings are thoughtful and interesting and add a lot to the
discussion, so maybe I shouldn't have used you as a response trigger.
I can't accept that war is not interesting, merely useless. Useless things
can be interesting. I have a view that we are on the planet, sentient,
concious. We can't but absorb what goes on around us and regurgitate it one
way or another in our work.
I was thinking about this in the shower this morning. Picasso made an
anti-war work, Guernica. Guernica was where modern ariel city bombardment
was invented. But Guernica took place during the spanish civil war. So maybe
a parallel would be an artist who had made work about the gassing of the
Kurds in Iraq. Of course, there was no western 'crisis' about this, so no
media blitz, so no flood of artists proclaiming on the subject.
Where's the flood of artists emails about the war in Congo or Ivory Coast or
Chechnia? I don't see it. All us media artists are terribly susceptible to
the media, we are all in a tizzy about something that may not turn out to be
much at all. From that I extrapolate that artists should shut up about
specific events and get on with their job of making art.
War is interesting in that it makes us behave in strange ways, and by
examining this behaviour we can maybe learn something and maybe make good
art.
Cheers,
Ivan

>
>
> —– Original Message —–
>
>
>> War is obviously bad, but it is also interesting.
>
> I've been thinking about this, and I think it really isn't. Like there's
> that stereolab song "Les Yper Sound," I don't know if you know it; "You Go
> On That Team, I'll Go On This Team, Stigmatization, Okay, Now We Can Fight!"
> It's not interesting as much as it is useless.
>
> Also, I think good/bad is an idea of an ego, but I can't say I have let go
> of that one yet. I mean I think that war is "bad," but I mostly think that I
> am supposed to think war is "bad". I can create the idea that war is bad
> deliberately out of a set of core values that I decide to take, but doing
> that means that I would need to take full responsibility for ending war, and
> I don't know if I am ready for that one yet. I would rather focus on a
> couple other things first, like my own prescence with the world.
>
>
>>
>> War is ongoing, nothing is really about to start.
>
>
> War is ongoing but only because everyone is always starting it. I mean I am
> always starting them. I started one today with someone I claim to love
> because she didn't love me in a way that I thought was the right way to love
> me. So I mean, there you go, that's where all war comes from.
>
>
>> Even worse is to get all introspective, 'oh god, I am so impotent in the
>> face of all this horribleness'. Yes we are, but so what, we always were.
>
> I think that line of thought is only 1/10th of my introspective process. I'm
> not really saying I am impotent, but that I am unwilling to actually act. In
> that sense you might say its an extrospective process in that I am looking
> at how I impact the world- I don't. But there is a huge difference between
> the two, I think. If I am unwilling to act, that means I could act, if I
> chose to. I don't know if I have that power *yet*- the power to choose to do
> anything and everything- but I have some power of choice, paradoxically, by
> realizing _why_ I am impotent in the face of all this _________.
>
>>
>> If you believe in art and in your art, you need to go on doing what you
> have
>> always done and not become an activist just because there is this
>> overwhelming media story about.
>
>
> Ha. Believing in my art gets me into all kinds of trouble. Because if I
> believe in my art I have to be kind of careful, or else I could just believe
> in whatever internal system I was using my art to perpetuate and recruit
> people into. I mean, I have always identified as an artist as an activist.
> Now I am starting to wonder about both. As an artist I am slightly less full
> of shit than I am with activism. I want to choose to be an artist again but
> I am wondering if I am ready really, because there is a lot of
> responsibility with what type of artist I would actually want to be.
>
> I think a major flaw with my past art has been that it has been largely
> reactive. The stuff people respond to the least I tend to like the most. So
> maybe I won't have a career per se. I mean I would like to make art that can
> generate. But wow, you know, like, who the hell can do that, seriously?
>
>
>
> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

" If nothing else, you can examine your own brain patterns before,
during and after the event."

i agree! really, it's the only way an artist can approach it—

the thing about war and anti-war activitsts is, it becomes (horribly) (thematically) more trend than content–putting up a NO WAR page is not going to accomplish anything at all (you can make the claim that it will provide information about the situation by linking to various news sources, but don't you think anyone really interested in this woulda sniffed that stuff out already?)–

i agree with t.whid////i'm against this war primarily because it will provoke more anger from an already angry (rightfully so) population——i'm also against it because of the very dangerous ideology george w. bush has been using—it's an ideology firmly entrenched in its own snug corner of the world—there's an axis of evil because there are political ideologies different from american capitalism—this is comic-book logic—

probably the most useful thing we can do is be kind to each other, and to especially be kind to muslims here in the US (they've had a tough time since 911!!!!)—-understanding and kindness are ALWAYS more effective than bombs—-THAT'S a helluva lot more effective than a NO WAR page—-

we can also be watchful of civil liberties in this age of heightened security—i had a moroccan friend a while back who was a muslim—-when i brought up the ACLU, he smiled and said, yes, this is why we come to your country—-this is what we should keep in mind….america is only as great as the manifestation of that ideal—

bliss

l





Ivan Pope <[email protected]> wrote:
To view this entire thread, click here:
http://rhizome.org/thread.rhiz?thready26&text125#16125

+ + +

on 19/3/03 7:17 pm, Eryk Salvaggio at [email protected] wrote:

>
> I can't say I know what the right thing to do about the war is, as an
> artist.
> This war is probably, really, not about oil or money or revenge, so much as
> …
> The winner gets to look thier best in whatever instance the theatre is
> played out on in thier heads.
>

In light of a stream of war related postings I would like to muse a moment
on the current situation as an artist.

War is obviously bad, but it is also interesting.

War is ongoing, nothing is really about to start.

Artists can obviously make a response to war, but there is little point in
them ranting about how bad they think it all is.

Even worse is to get all introspective, 'oh god, I am so impotent in the
face of all this horribleness'. Yes we are, but so what, we always were.

If you believe in art and in your art, you need to go on doing what you have
always done and not become an activist just because there is this
overwhelming media story about.

War will provide you with a huge reservoir of material for your work if you
want it. If nothing else, you can examine your own brain patterns before,
during and after the event.

Don't wear your heart on your sleeve.

Cheers,
Ivan 'Only exist' Pope

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +




http://www.lewislacook.com/
NEW! Fort! Da! http://www.lewislacook.com/FortDa
ARCADIA: long poem serialized in the muse apprentice guild: http://www.muse-apprentice-guild.com/
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html



———————————
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Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

–MS_Mac_OE_3131008873_148380_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

I bet if we put up a prowar art webpage it would make it on CNN and millions
of partiotic amaricans would buy up the art like hotcakes.

on 3/20/03 9:20 AM, lewis lacook at [email protected] wrote:


" If nothing else, you can examine your own brain patterns before,
during and after the event."

i agree! really, it's the only way an artist can approach it—

the thing about war and anti-war activitsts is, it becomes (horribly)
(thematically) more trend than content–putting up a NO WAR page is not
going to accomplish anything at all (you can make the claim that it will
provide information about the situation by linking to various news sources,
but don't you think anyone really interested in this woulda sniffed that
stuff out already?)–

i agree with t.whid////i'm against this war primarily because it will
provoke more anger from an already angry (rightfully so) population——i'm
also against it because of the very dangerous ideology george w. bush has
been using—it's an ideology firmly entrenched in its own snug corner of
the world—there's an axis of evil because there are political ideologies
different from american capitalism—this is comic-book logic—

probably the most useful thing we can do is be kind to each other, and to
especially be kind to muslims here in the US (they've had a tough time since
911!!!!)—-understanding and kindness are ALWAYS more effective than
bombs—-THAT'S a helluva lot more effective than a NO WAR page—-

we can also be watchful of civil liberties in this age of heightened
security—i had a moroccan friend a while back who was a muslim—-when i
brought up the ACLU, he smiled and said, yes, this is why we come to your
country—-this is what we should keep in mind….america is only as great
as the manifestation of that ideal—

bliss

l






Ivan Pope <[email protected]> wrote:

To view this entire thread, click here:
http://rhizome.org/thread.rhiz?thready26&text125#16125

+ + +

on 19/3/03 7:17 pm, Eryk Salvaggio at [email protected] wrote:

>
> I can't say I know what the right thing to do about the war is, as an
> artist.
> This war is probably, really, not about oil or money or revenge, so much as
> …
> The winner gets to look thier best in whatever instance the theatre is
> played out on in thier heads.
>

In light of a stream of war related postings I would like to muse a moment
on the current situation as an artist.

War is obviously bad, but it is also interesting.

War is ongoing, nothing is really about to start.

Artists can obviously make a response to war, but there is little point in
them ranting about how bad they think it all is.
Even worse is to get all introspective, 'oh god, I am so impotent in the
face of all this horribleness'. Yes we are, but so what, we always were.

If you believe in art and in your art, you need to go on doing what you have
always done and not become an activist just because there is this
overwhelming media story about.

War will provide you with a huge reservoir of material for your work if you
want it. If nothing else, you can examine your own brain patterns before,
during and after the event.

Don't wear your heart on your sleeve.

Cheers,
Ivan 'Only exist' Pope

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +





http://www.lewislacook.com/

NEW! Fort! Da! http://www.lewislacook.com/FortDa

ARCADIA: long poem serialized in the muse apprentice guild:
http://www.muse-apprentice-guild.com/

http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html





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Yahoo! Platinum
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"a][nti][nglo.cubic" <[email protected]> wrote:
At 06:20 AM 20/03/03 -0800, you wrote:
>
>" If nothing else, you can examine your own brain patterns before,
>during and after the event."
>
>i agree! really, it's the only way an artist can approach it—


+ offering a social filter aler.ting[le?]





LL: how can you NOT, mez….




>the thing about war and anti-war activitsts is, it becomes (horribly)
(thematically) more trend than content–putting up a NO WAR page is not
going to accomplish anything at all


????????
how dare u make this claim, LL?

can u d.termine the paths + passages of info-impacts?

[help.less.ness_is_KNOT_d.termined_by_flippant_egoship!!!]

bah!

[is yr writing powerless due 2 its target audience niche? is this trawling
+ dispersal "not going to accomplish anything at all"]

:|



LL: You may be right here…forgive me for a moment of disillusinment!


>(you can make the claim that it will provide information about the
situation by linking to various news sources, but don't you think anyone
really interested in this woulda sniffed that stuff out already?)–


so literal, LL.

*sighing_thru_my_lateral_mouth*

LL: but bombs are literal, mez…and sometimes i doubt that symbolic action is really the way to remedy these things…


>i agree with t.whid////i'm against this war primarily because it will
provoke more anger from an already angry (rightfully so)
population——i'm also against it because of the very dangerous ideology
george w. bush has been using—it's an ideology firmly entrenched in its
own snug corner of the world—there's an axis of evil because there are
political ideologies different from american capitalism—this is
comic-book logic—
>


& wot re: the banal logic of the assumer?
+ cloaked apathy + n.gendered blockages of [symbolic] action stances that u
c.k 2 w[ord]ash away above?



LL: The logic of the assumer is not mine…

[symptomatically + author.ity occulsions]

pfft.



>probably the most useful thing we can do is be kind to each other, and to
especially be kind to muslims here in the US (they've had a tough time
since 911!!!!)—-understanding and kindness are ALWAYS more effective than
bombs—-THAT'S a helluva lot more effective than a NO WAR page—-
>


+ b AWARE of [y]our own baggage
+ remove_the_judgement_need[les]



LL: Good point, and well-taken…


>we can also be watchful of civil liberties in this age of heightened
security—i had a moroccan friend a while back who was a muslim—-when i
brought up the ACLU, he smiled and said, yes, this is why we come to your
country—-this is what we should keep in mind….america is only as great
as the manifestation of that ideal—
>

..+ the accumulation of that ideal silt in bobs + filtered patches.


*head shake.ages*
mez




LL: bless you, mez…you've helped lift some of that disillusionment!

bliss

l






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