Remember Crimes

—– Original Message —–
From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
To: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> Dear Wally Keeler,
> I'll be glad to produce such work if you could hand me some documentation
> regarding your statement. Since I live here I can't see those things…

Skinheads kill 14-year-old Romani boy in Yugoslavia
A 14-year-old Roma boy was killed late Friday, October 17, by a group of
skinheads in downtown Belgrade, Yugoslavia, media reported Saturday.
Dusko Jovanovia was approached in a Street near his home by several skin
heads who reportedly demanded money from him and started kicking him and
beating him with lead pipes even before he could answer. The boy was left
dead on the pavement with a broken neck, witnesses said.
Police cordoned off surrounding streets and arrested two skinhead suspects.
Approximately three thousand mourners attended Dusko funeral on October 21.
Observers report a dramatic rise in skinhead violence against Roma in
Yugoslavia in recent months. RFE/RL reported that skinheads severely beat
two Roma in Belgrade on October 27. (Associated Press, RFE/RL)

—– Original Message —–
From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
To: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> Dear Wally Keeler,
> I'll be glad to produce such work if you could hand me some documentation
> regarding your statement. Since I live here I can't see those things

Dom Za Vesanje, O Vaxt a Rromengo:
Time Of the Gypsies

Film Review by Ian Hancock


Time of the Gypsies is one of the very few screenplays with a Gypsy theme
which utilizes Romani actors and the Romani language. In this respect it
joins company only with Tony Gatlif's Les Princes and Robert Duvall's Angelo
My Love. Despite this, it – predictably – relies heavily on stereotypes of
mysticism and thievery, though their interpretation by the non-Romani
audience differs from that of the Roma who have seen the film.
In December 1985, Reuters released details of the arrest of a gang of
Yugoslav kidnappers who, since 1980, had been stealing children from
defenseless Gypsy families and selling them to Americans and Italians who
were otherwise unable to adopt. The parents of the 100 kidnapped children,
all Roma, were too frightened to report these crimes. This was the subject
of a report by Hans P. Rullmann which appeared in 1986 in That's Yugoslavia
No.5, and which was entitled "Child slave trade in Yugoslavia: Gypsies
(Romas) oppression." The story also caught the attention of Emir Kusturica,
a Yugoslav film producer known to Western audiences for his award-winning
When Father Was Away on Business, which was released in the United States in
1985.

Kusturica, working with script writer Gordan Mihic, turned this human
tragedy into a cinematographic fantasy, which he presented at the 1990
Cannes Film Festival as Time of the Gypsies, and which received a
five-minute standing ovation.

The film itself is long, lasting two hours and twenty-two minutes, and is
almost entirely in the Romani language, with English subtitles. It has been
well received by almost everyone who has seen it; the Romani population of
Cannes reportedly celebrated its release throughout the night until dawn;
American Roma who saw it struggled with the dialect and were thankful that
they lived in the USA. Given that its inspiration was the abduction of
Romani children, and that the Romani experience it portrays is depressing,
one is forced to question why it was so cheerfully received.

The story centers on Perhan, the son of a parentless household he shares
with his demented uncle Merdjan, his grandmother Hatidja, and his disabled
sister Danira. It opens onto a cold, wet, muddy day and a bride, still in
her wedding gown, abandoned and angry because her new husband has passed
out, drunk, in a hand-cart. Like a member of a Greek chorus, a forlorn
character stands apart in this opening scene, and paints a word picture of
Romani life. He is unnamed, and presented as a shaven-headed inmate from the
Nazi camps where over a million Roma were murdered during the Holocaust.
Appearing periodically as a background character throughout the film, he
speaks disjointedly of cruel medical experiments, and stresses that despite
those things, he is still here. This seems to be a theme in the film; the
pain and endurance of Romani existence. Another theme, which becomes
apparent as the story progresses, is that survival rests upon adherence to
core Romani values or Rromanipe; as Perhan moves further and further away
from them, so do his misfortunes multiply. This is an allusion to the
kintala or balance which must be maintained in Romani culture, and the
prikaza or retribution the guardian spirits (the mule) mete out to those who
upset it.

Perhan is a thinker and a dreamer; he has telekinesic skills, and can
charm birds. He cares deeply for his sister Danira, and has vowed to pay her
hospital bills in any way he can. He is in love with a young girl called
Azra, who also lives in the village (which is not named in the film, but
which is in fact Shutka, near Skopje). Although he wants to marry Azra, her
mother is scornfully opposed to the union because, she says, Perhan has no
money. She also comments on the fairness of her daughter's complexion,
implying that Perhan is too dark for her, but at the same time deriding him
for being the half-Gypsy bastard of a gadjo (non-Gypsy) soldier. Azra's
mother has bought into the non-Romani value system, which places material
wealth and physical appearance over moral or spiritual value; nevertheless
Perhan is so smitten with Azra that her mother's words wound him deeply, and
he attempts suicide. That he does this on Svuntogjorgi (The Feast of Saint
George) is significant even to Muslim families such as Perhan's, because
this slava (saint's day festival) is a time of family togetherness, and of
ritual bathing in the river. Together with the singing which accompanies the
flames of a thousand candles illuminating the dark water, this eerily
beautiful scene is one of the most moving in the entire film.

Perhan is in charge of operating the kiln in which chalk is burnt to
produce the lime with which the houses are customarily whitened at this time
of the year, and Azra's house is one of the whitest, despite the pollution
of her mother's values. Luckily, Perhan's attempt to kill himself is foiled
in time by a villager, who finds him hanging by the neck from a rope and
cuts him down. Although given a second chance at life, Perhan doesn't
recover from his vow to become wealthy. He is obsessed with notions of
becoming rich enough to pay for an operation on Danira's leg, and to win
Azra's hand, especially when his uncle Merdjan boasted that he intends to
seduce her; so when the crime lord Ahmed arrives, Perhan is easy prey.

Ahmed, originally from the village, had gone away to become rich through
various criminal means, including selling children to Italians and forcing
them to beg and steal for him. Perhan persuades Ahmed to hire him, and
thereby begins his descent into criminality and his journey away from
Rromanipe. Ahmed's superficial glamour, and his casual donations of cash to
the villagers, make him appear as a hero, but as he wins their admiration
and trust, he is at the same time undermining their spiritual and cultural
integrity. Perhan especially was vulnerable to Ahmed's promises of easy
wealth. He tells Perhan that if he and Danira go with him, he will be able
to make the money so desperately needed for her operation. Soon after the
three of them leave, Perhan begins to see that something is wrong because
Ahmed is collecting young people, even babies, along the route. In a vision,
Danira sees the muli, or spirit of their dead mother, dressed in a wedding
gown; her white dress, like the whitewash on the houses, symbolizes purity;
but like the abandoned bride at the beginning of the film, and the
materialistic, hostile mother in Azra's whitewashed house, and even like
Ahmed's behaviour towards the villagers, the message is that what may appear
to be good can in fact hide an evil which lurks behind it. But the
appearance of her mother's muli, and the remembered words of her grandmother
Hatidza that "O rat s'e tajna, o rat s'e zor" ("blood [i.e., family ties] is
the secret, blood is the power"), seems to comfort Danira in her
nervousness. Her trepidation is justified nevertheless. because Ahmed leaves
her alone at a hospital, and he and Perhan continue on into Italy without
her.

Perhan is at first shocked to witness the human misery confronting him in
Milan, but with time, he becomes inured and accepts it, becoming just as
heartless a gangster as Ahmed in his overriding desire to acquire wealth. As
his spirit hardens, so the environment which surrounds him becomes bleaker
and more gloomy.

Eventually he returns home, but even before going to see his own family,
he makes straight for Azra's house to demonstrate to her mother his new
wealth and status. Here, he finds that Azra is pregnant with what he at
first assumes to be another man's child. In his anguish, he seeks refuge in
a tavern and tries to lose himself in drink. Instead, he finds himself
confronting the decisions he has made in his life; he knows then that if he
had not gone away and become dragged down into the criminal world of the
gadjo, things would have been very different. Still, he decides that he will
not reject Azra, providing she gets rid of her child by selling it into a
life of mendicity. She agrees, and together they set off for Italy,
gathering up children along the way just as Ahmed had done, though this time
to be put to work for him.

Back in Milan, Azra goes off by herself to have her baby, but doesn't
return. Then Perhan finally goes to look for her, he discovers the baby
alive but Azra dead, having died giving birth. His misfortunes are
compounded by a violent storm which washes away his cache of gold. Now
without the woman he loves, and with his savings all gone, Perhan believes
himself to have sunk as low as possible, but finds "in the lowest deep a
deeper still," when he learns that Ahmed, whom he'd looked upon as his
mentor, had deceived him. Instead of taking care of Danira's operation, he
had forced her into begging for him, capitalizing on her deformed leg as a
moneymaking source of pity. Perhan leaves at once for Rome, where Danira is.
She receives him without recrimination, and in fact they seem closer than
ever before; the ties of blood overcome everything else.

Perhan puts Danira and his new baby (also named Perhan) on a train back to
Yugoslavia, promising to join them in due course. Meanwhile, consumed with
the desire for revenge, he goes to Ahmed's wedding and murders him using his
telekinetic skills: he makes a fork fly across the table and fix itself in
Ahmed's heart. It is at this point that Ahmed realizes how overriding are
the bonds of blood and family loyalty. In an ending which surprised the
non-Gypsy audience but not the Roma who saw the film, Perhan too died in
this scene, when Ahmed's bride then killed him in retaliation.

The penultimate scene is of Perhan's funeral. His corpse is lying in an
open coffin with gold coins on its eyelids, while his son, now looking like
a miniature version of his gangster father, is reaching in to steal them. In
the very last scene, little Perhan is running off with the coins, chased by
Merdjan who saw him do it. Reaching the crossroads, Merdjan is faced with a
choice: in one direction lies the road down which little Perhan is fleeing,
while the other leads away from him, to the church. This is the one Merdjan
chooses. It has taken the examples of his nephew Perhan, and now Perhan's
son, to make him realize the futility of his own errant ways, and so he
turns toward God to redeem himself before he ends up like Perhan and Ahmed.


The film is heavy on imagery; it begins and ends with a wedding, and the
spirit of a bride, Perhan and Danira's mother, also appears halfway through.
In Rromanipe, marriage is the fulcrum, and it is difficult to believe that
Kusturica didn't know this when producing the film – or else – and what is
more likely – that the members of the almost entirely all-Romani cast hadn'
t helped him to understand it. The kintala or balance one must maintain
involves two sides equally weighted; stray from Rromanipe and the balance
shifts. The two sides are just one manifestation of the overall duality
which characterizes the Romani world view: Rom and gadjo, God and the devil,
purity and defilement, luck and misfortune, male and female, child and
adult. Marriage is the boundary between one's status as a boy or girl (in
Romani, chavo or chej) and man or woman (Rrom or Rromni). This boundary has
nothing to do with biological age; a girl who marries at age twelve becomes
a Rromni or woman, because the word is synonymous with

—– Original Message —–
From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
To: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> Dear Wally Keeler,
> I'll be glad to produce such work if you could hand me some documentation
> regarding your statement. Since I live here I can't see those things…

You can begin with some of the documentation below:

ACTON, T.A. 'Resettlement.

—– Original Message —–
From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
To: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]
> Dear Wally Keeler,
> I'll be glad to produce such work if you could hand me some documentation
> regarding your statement. Since I live here I can't see those things…

Roma of Kosovo: the Forgotten Victims

by Orhan Galjus

Fifteen-years-ago at one of the elementary schools in Kosovo there was a
lesson in the Serbo-Croatian language for the first-year-pupils. Because it
was their first week at school, their teacher asked them to introduce
themselves once again:
"What is your name?"

"My name is Merita Muharemovich." The teacher paused at her desk for a
while, and tried to correct the mistake Merita had made by giving her family
name the way she did, since, in the class register it was written simply
"Muharemi."

That same afternoon, having learnt about Merita's introduction in her
class, all the members of her family were laughing loudly at her
"sophistication." You see, Merita was the only Roma first-year-pupil at her
class.

This is only one little piece of the mosaic that is Merita's
eight-year-long school life. But it illustrates very well her wish to
identify herself with the other children in the class. This situation was
the same too for other little Roma children in the Albanian school district.
Here, Merita's family name would have been Muharemi, the name, incidentally,
formally registered in the official city records. Then again, if she were to
belong to the Turkish section, her name would be put down as Muharemsoy,
with the Turkish ending -soy.

It is well known that the Turks and Albanians who worked in former
socialist/communist administrative departments in Kosovo, and who wished to
increase the numbers of their minorities, entered "official" Albanian and
Turkish-sounding family names in the books registering new born children.
They were also changing the names of almost all of the registered Roma
citizens.

One very strange, even incomprehensible – though finally "accepted"
phenomena (according to Roma) was their partition among the inhabitants of
Kosovo. Even after the Second World War, Roma had to change the family names
in order to be recognized (e.g., Kalo). During this period, Roma were given
family names of Turkish, Serbian and Albanian origin, and whose meanings
were often degrading: one of those still existing is "Delibalta," which,
translated from Turkish means "A Crazy Axe," or, e.g. the name "Vragovich,"
which in Serbian means the "Born of the Devil"; "Choulanjee" refers to Roma
as being of peasant origin, though in a very pejorative way, and the family
name "Karach," widely popular among Turkish administrators, is equivalent to
the English word "Negro."

The most-widespread surname amongst Roma families, which has somehow
incorporated some Albanian influence is "Berisha." Generally, it was not
only simply a matter of using Roma for the purpose of creating more Turks,
Albanians, or today's old-fashioned Yugoslavs.

It was also the practice to attack Roma in order to break Romani identity
in the region of Kosovo. This allowed Romani families to be divided in the
same way as the non-Roma families, from day to day creating more and more
nations and nationalities within Kosovo.

It makes most sense to conclude that in the states of the former
Yugoslavia, during the whole time that they were in turmoil, changing and
re-forming, during all the warfare, Roma were, and still are, divided by
religious and ethnic partition; and that's why they couldn't be seen as
being politically homogeneous – why they couldn't take a strong stand
against the fratricidal war.

Ever since Roma came into Yugoslavian territory, recorded for the first
time in 1362 in Dubrovnik, the Balkan peoples have been violently fighting
against the "easiest" nation, playing their war games in order to establish
their own national states. Such symbiosis and assimilation of Roma (as well
as others) resulted in the country of Byzance in the Middle Ages,
particularly during the Turkish period. This procedure was further
exacerbated, even by way of force, because the Roma, depended on their
environment. Many also moved into different ethnic groups in order to hang
onto the bare necessities of life or, depending upon their situation, were
forced to migrate to western European countries.

One of the political games intended to destroy Romani identity and to make
scapegoats of the Roma occurred in Prishtina in October 1990. The news media
reported that in the capital of Kosovo and in Metohia, there was held the
inaugural meeting of the Association of Egyptians of Kosovo. Many citizens
were amazed, asking "where did the Egyptians in Kosovo come from?" At the
Association of Egyptians' meeting, it was announced that no political
ambitions were entertained by the Kosovo Egyptians, but instead their
principal aim was to watch over their national identity and, in particular,
to protect it from Albanization, to which the members had been subject over
the years. However, a certain number of them declared themselves Roma. It
appears that in Kosovo there live about 100,000 "Egyptians."

Ali Krasnichi, the notorious Romani writer and Rom activist from Kosovo,
said: "It is public knowledge here, that the Ashkalie are those Roma who
have been Albanized in earlier times so that now, their mother tongue is
Albanian. I knew that a certain meeting of Egyptians was held in Belgrade in
early October, 1990, related to the celebration of one of their holidays, at
the Egyptian Embassy, and that there was also present besides the 'Council
of Egyptians' from our country; those from Ohrid in Macedonia. For we Roma,
this event was very painful. Hitherto we fought for our own affirmation, and
today, individuals are assigning us to other identities. From that time we
have consistently appealed to the Serbian authorities, in order to obtain
for we Roma from Kosovo and Metohia, the status of nationality and thus
avoid that division among us."

And more: the well-known Sadriya Avduli (54) didn't hide his fate at that
time by wishing to declare himself as an Egyptian: he said "We, the Roma in
Kosovo, have experienced a great many things; do you wonder why I wish to
declare myself 'Egyptian'? It means I'll procure jobs for my family, I'll
obtain more rights here! And believe me, I don't know for what other reasons
I would declare myself Egyptian." Meanwhile, such political immaturity has
created the most incisive costs for the Roma. It is absurd to speak about
"one nation representing four nations" (Albanians, Turks, Serbs, Egyptians)
since the majority of the people knows that these are perhaps "the gates to
fortune." In this pyramid of lies, nurtured between Macedonia and Kosovo,
only those who engage in the dangerous trading of political and religious
deceit, are called "Roma." In Kosovo and Macedonia, this initiative found
much larger support than the Romani emancipation idea. And it is not
difficult to find the answer to what purpose might be of use for the
"Pharaonic Group"–members in Kosovo who sowed their origins with the seeds
of lies … "which will serve the purposes of the human and national
zoologist classes once their time has come." Roma activists in Kosovo find
the most serious damage of Roma unity in Kosovo to be the inventing of the
Egyptians. In the 1990s the "inflammatory" Kosovo witnessed a situation in
the town center in Prishtina in which a Romani girl who had stopped at the
entry, when a racist Albanian nationalist came up to her, poured gasoline
over her hair, and set her on fire. With this act, the "inflammatory" stage
rose to a higher level.

The "cold war" between the Serbs and the Albanians of Kosovo is already
well known to the international public. During the demonstrations in 1989
as well as afterwards, many Roma were forced (or misled) into siding with
the interest of Albanians and, like the Albanians were also persecuted by
Serbian police and politicians and deprived of the right to work. And Roma
who didn't want to or didn't participate in the "Albanian Affair", were put
under psychological pressure by Albanian community, even by their colleagues
and friends … Yet at the same time, Serbian authorities recalled Roma to
respect the Serbian-Yugoslavian state affair. Avoiding complication of a
political situation in Kosovo, the Serbian police concentrated on watching
the political system and the integrity of the region. Kosovo Albanians
changed to a more "peaceful" way to solve the political conflict, by leaving
their jobs as a "protest against the introduced political regime."

At this moment it is important to remind how the generally proclaimed
"brotherhood and unity" of Yugoslavia survived from the 1960s and later,
promoting the idea of a multicultural policy, although the results of
periodically taken censuses always had serious political implications.
Considering censuses to be the "ethnic keys" pertained especially to the
regional and local levels of state administration.

This was implemented by creating ethnic quotas for manipulating resources
such as jobs, scholarships, apartments or key positions in administration
which were proportionally divided among different nations and nationalities,
depending on their individual national percentage: if, for example, a
factory in Kosovo needed ten workers, from ten unemployed people there would
be taken five Albanians, three Serbs, two Turks and one Rom - meaning a
person merely declaring to be a Rom, or a "real" one. As it might seem, the
structure of the "ethnic key" was created in order to divide the sources
properly and to weaken old ethnic tensions. At the same time this way was
not universally beneficial. Actually, it created the "political base" for
assimilation of Roma by Albanians, Turks and Serbs in order to have "a piece
of bread." Many officials in important positions in Kosovo preferred members
of their ethnic group to others. Inter-ethnic relations were getting worse
from day to day, causing frustration among Serbs and political agony for the
Roma. It was increasing the policy of revenge from Albanians during the
time of Rankovich's regime (the fifties and sixties) which was a very
difficult time for them. Since the nineteenth century until today in Kosovo
there has been a model of inter-ethnic relations that always results in the
domination of one nation over another. Albanians as well as Serbs were
exchanging their leading positions back and forth, each time preferring
theirs and discriminating against the others.

Today's events are the result of more than twenty years of an Albanian
population explosion in Kosovo. It is their numerical domination which has
caused Kosovo's being "overpopulated" by Albanians, from the Serbian
perspective.

The background of Roma has never been really clarified. Roma adapted
themselves and consequently identified with the dominant Turkish-Albanian
culture. In censuses Roma were registered as Albanians; since 1990 the
Yugoslavian Egyptians have interrupted the process of the Albanization of
the Roma, since they claimed that they preferred to be "Egyptians," not
Albanians anymore!

Identification of Roma with the Albanians was "a free, positive choice,"
especially after the Second World War. In the beginning, Roma acted as the
population that could be easily identified with the Albanians. Though if we
pay more attention and consider why it was so, we might say that this
identification was caused by economic, social and political pressures upon
the Roma.

We have to acknowledge the numbers of Yugoslavian Roma registered in the
census during the seventies to be able to say with some irony, but at the
same time very strongly conclude, that "many of the officially registered
Romanians, Albanians, Turks, Slovenians, Serbs, Macedonians and others have
a very obvious Romani physiognomy." These are the ways in which Roma are
hiding their origin behind more respected identities, and because of this
they are creating a better chance for survival. But despite this sort of
"mimicry" Roma are never fully incorporated or totally assimilated into the
group they identify with. I want to remind about the official information of
the census from the year 1981, when in Kosovo 34,000 people declared
themselves to be Roma.

The number was so small because during the census there was strong
pressure upon Roma not to declare themselves to be such. According to
estimations made by Roma activists and organizations, at that time in Kosovo
there were four or five times as many Roma living there. Under pressure from
the majority of the inhabitants, Roma hid themselves by posing as members of
other nations and nationalities. As a result, when there is a discussion
about the number of Roma living in Kosovo, the most realistic estimate seems
to be that that they make up 10 percent of all the inhabitants there, a
figure confirmed by Roma intellectuals, associations and activists as well.

Regardless of who the instigators of the Yugoslavian wars have been, again
history is repeating itself. It has yet to be said that Roma from Serbia are
fighting against Croatia and Bosnia in the ranks of Serbian army, and by
doing are fighting against their own brothers, against their own Roma –
just in different parts of Yugoslavia. Or, is it necessary today to ask
what would happen if there is a war with Kosovo, or larger, more serious,
common escalation of armed conflict … would Roma be in between or are they
already in between two very different groups of interests. The latest
events, which actually happened in this period of fighting in Kosovo, showed
Roma murdered at their own homes while doing their every-day work in
villages or in their homes.

Although Roma dress just like the other villagers in Kosovo, during the
last conflicts between Albanians and Serbian police, in Drenica and other
villages there were blameless Roma killed directly in the yards of their
own homes. Roma in Kosovo aren't armed, just as they weren't armed in
Bosnia: when one of the state representatives of Saudi Arabia was asked why
his country doesn't help Roma Muslims in Bosnia he answered, that it was
impossible since there are also Roma living in Christian Serbia! This kind
of opinion couldn't be heard in the early nineties when Muslim societies
(individual Muslim states) greeted with pleasure the "Egyptians" living in
Kosovo and Macedonia – at a time when Yugoslavia was not yet split up.

It was supposed that Islam would have a stronger influence among Roma, if
Yugoslavia survived transition. This sort of speculation about Roma doesn't
come only from the Islamic side. Roma, according to their number are, in the
broadest sense of the word, minimized in Kosovo.

Who would be able to say that a pupil Merita Muharemi, according to her
name and surname, is not an Albanian? Roma, from earliest times, have been
forced to change, to alter their personal names. Since the time of Great
Albanian chauvinism and nationalism in Kosovo it was easiest to "convince"
Roma to change their names and surnames. If the latest concerns in Kosovo
should rise to new intensity, we might suppose that Macedonia would very
soon fall victim to the similar process of distracting the political
architecture and this would be fatal for all southeast Europe. Multinational
war would destroy the already very unstable Roma; the solution would be
infinite and a new genocide of Roma would begin.

If there is a war in Kosovo, Roma would once again be blamed, the same as
in the Serbian-Croatian-Bosnian one, for their massive non-participation in
national-ethnic-civil war. Regardless of who'll be the final winner in
Kosovo, Roma would be stigmatized as deserters, traitors, people who don't
want to fight … but why, and for whom, don't Roma want to fight in those
kinds of war? Until when could Roma keep their neutrality, according to
general concept of war?

Bosnian Roma, returning back home after a long time, having been moved out
against their will and wish, found their houses robbed, sometimes demolished
by their own neighbors … unlike other Muslims, Roma are not welcome, they
are ignored and hated, they can hardly communicate with their former
co-inhabitants. Sometimes it seems more difficult then it was before the
war, there is really great fear among Roma about picking up their lives
again in their native towns.

During these days, when there are difficult nights and days in Kosovo,
Roma are not safe from dangerous situations and happenings. A Rom from
Prizren was brutally murdered by his Albanian friend under quite mysterious
circumstances. There's a rumor among Roma telling about the murdered Rom who
was too close to Serbian police and so as such he betrayed his Albanian
friend.

Many Roma women don't feel safe going outside their houses, since they are
more and more often attacked by the Albanians. The beaten women have nobody
to complain to. Serbian police don't react to incidents connected with Roma
and they are not sufficiently protected by the very police who "watch the
public order and peace" … there are also Roma amongst the latest refugees
from Kosovo but again, just like in the Bosnian war, they face incredible
difficulties by being recognized as the ones whose lives are endangered as
well as the others and accepted by a host country. Roma in Kosovo don't have
any organizations to protect them. Right now there are the voices saying
that "they have no right to leave Kosovo, there is no place for more
refugees in Albania and Macedonia." They are not organized enough to deal
with this very serious issue. If we speak about any political power, Roma
don't have any in order to influence the current situation, regardless of
the fact that most of them voted for Miloshevich and his party. It's
important to note that Roma couldn't build such a powerful structure since
they were under very strong pressure from both sides. Let's go back in time
a little way to the beginning of the seventies, and remind ourselves about
the Yugoslavian Constitution which since 1974 guaranteed autonomy status for
Kosovo. After one and half decades, in March 1989, "Belgrade arbitrarily
rescinded the status of autonomous province that it had according to
Yugoslavian Constitution of 1974." Shortly, Kosovo is again connected and by
law unified with Serbia. Thanks to this act the situation got more dangerous
for the future of the region, according to the situation in Bosnia. Roma
weren't involved in the big game but "somebody" counted on their service.
It can only be supposed who is preferred by Roma in Kosovo.

Besides the fact that it's possible to analyze Roma inclination, whether
it is towards Serbian or more to the Albanian side, in this case I'd say
Roma are inside a sandwich ready for very hungry "wolves and eagles." The
opinion of Roma is occupied by one complex question: what will be the status
of Roma in Kosovo, if Kosovo and Metohija stays "under Serbians" and again
would be given its autonomy from the Constitution in 1974; or what would be
their status if the Albanians bring to reality their dream of legal,
accepted Republic of Kosovo?

Roma don't have adequate answers and, guessing, they have confused
thinking about their legal position, citizenship, what state's citizens are
they going to be? Would they face the destiny of Czech Roma (born in
Slovakia) who lost their citizenship and ongoing questions without answers?
Maybe it's easier for understanding this problem which makes Roma so scared
if I can give several details of life in Kosovo directly connected with Roma
what could also provide some answers to Roma about their future everyday
life.

After the 1989 year when Kosovo was "returned" to Serbia, the everyday
life was many times bringing Roma into mat-position: everything switched to
the official Serbian language, Roma who got Albanized or who used to be
educated in, until yesterday legal, language of one of the nations
(Albanian, Serbian or Turkish) had to face unexpected problems. Roma who
didn't speak the Serbian language - which was again established as the only
official one, Roma who lived and are living in using the Albanian language
at once forbidden somewhere, so those Roma faced similar problems to the
Albanian ones. In this time, Serbian physicians used to send Roma patients
to the Albanian ones who, protesting against new status of Kosovo, were
fired from their former working places. Serbians didn't stop on this level
of assimilation of the Albanians: by "simple" restricting of usage of the
Albanian language they changed the score in that match; there was a time
when the Albanians promoted the Albanian language as "the most important one
of Kosovo"; people had to speak the language of God, i.e. Albanian.

Roma, living since the early nineteenth century, surrounded by competitive
assimilation, living between two parallel state structures - official
Serbian and the illegal and clandestine Albanian administration, Roma lost
the fight for time and space which would let them get politically organized
in Kosovo. They are between two fires.

Thinking about eventually organizing themselves is not characterized by
being parallel with anything at all, but there is a growing dissatisfaction
related to both sides. The latest form of "a state inside of a state" and
the situation in Kosovo destroyed the tiniest hope and belief of Roma in a
democracy ruled by Miloshevich and Rugova. During the nineteenth century
Serbs created their own educational system, one never accepted by the
Albanians. On the other hand the school system organized by the Albanians is
the most astonishing achievement of the illegal Albanian administration.
Roma received one more blow; the generation educated in the Albanian
language disappeared into thin air, and many Roma children who had to switch
to new Serbian schools got lessons about the "low-quality education"
Albanians have provided since the early seventies, when education in
Albanian was legal. In such situations there is no place for Roma pupils and
students because of the "war conditions" of Albanians, who also made
stricter criteria for their illegal schools and universities. There was
strong competition among the Albanians themselves for getting to the
parallel Albanian university, separated from the Serbian one. Entrance
examinations used to be very difficult and rigorous. For Roma wishing for an
education in the only possible alternative – the Serbian language – it
seemed to be just a bad dream or a lost hope.

Roma students could no longer reach their aims of life. Those of them
educated in Albanian learned Serbian as minor, while those learning in
Serbian were profiting in the time, but what would be the future … An
extreme situation which, since the early 1990s has been worsening from day
to day: Serbian and Albanian families who had good relations lost them for
an indefinite time, Serbian and Albanian neighbors now ignore each other as
if they had never known each other. Polarization of the society is visible,
and can be seen in the streets, walking areas are divided by lines to
sectors for individual nationalities. At markets Serbians buy goods from the
Serbians, Albanians only from the Albanians regardless who sells more
cheaply. Cafeterias and bars are divided into Serbian and Albanian. To avoid
an explosion in Kosovo, Ibrahim Rugova, the chairman of the officially
unrecognized Republic of Kosovo, had already asked representatives of the
world-most-powerful states for special protection through UNO in 1994.

Roma activists in Kosovo haven't yet started talking about the protection
of Roma in Kosovo. But the hidden exodus of Roma has started again. Today's
conflicts in Kosovo seem similar to those first seen in Croatia, Bosnia and
elsewhere, but also to the ones in Israel and Palestine: that sort of
inter-ethnic, civil war will burn down the guiltless Roma who, in those
dangerous war games in the Balkans, have no place or even responsibility.


—————————————————————————-
—-

Orhan Galjus works with the Open Society Institute's Regional Roma
Participation Program in Budapest. He has worked on Romani radio programs in
Belgrade and Amsterdam and was the publisher of the original bilingual
Romani magazine Patrin. He was awarded the Pralipe (Brotherhood) Prize in
1996.

—– Original Message —–
From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
To: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> Dear Wally Keeler,
> I'll be glad to produce such work if you could hand me some documentation
> regarding your statement. Since I live here I can't see those things…

The Roma Refugees of Kosovo

Text by Owen Durkin
Photographs by Asmet Elezovski

A flood of refugees has been entering Macedonia since late March 1999;
many are ethnic Albanians from Kosovo, but some are Roma from Kosovo, yet
other Roma are from Serbia. Kumanovo, Macedonia is near the Serbian border
and has received many people from Serbia who have fled the NATO bombing, or
the conflict on the ground. There are also Roma fleeing ethnic hostility
directed at them in Albania. Those identified as coming from Kosovo are
accepted as "refugees" by the Macedonian government and the UNHCR; the
others are "guests" or "tourists". The distinction is critical: a refugee
has the right to remain in the country, receive medical treatment and
humanitarian aid, and also the right to emigrate to another country. Shabani
is a Rom from Kosovo who has been registered in Kumanovo as a refugee, but
he was told by Stenkovec authorities that one has to be Albanian or very
rich to emigrate to another country; appeals to the UNHCR have been
fruitless. Some Roma refugees head into the refugee camps; others seek
billet accommodation with Roma families living in the area.
The members of the Roma Community Centre "DROM" Kumanovo have been
labouring to assist Roma refugees in the camps and in private homes,
providing food, medical assistance, accommodation and other aid. The
Macedonian Roma families who are hosting Roma refugees are not wealthy; they
need assistance to provide food, medicine, clothing and bedding. In some
cases Roma have experienced discrimination or rejection by aid organisation
staff workers perceiving Roma as allied with the Serbians. DROM has drawn
heavily on its own funds to assist Roma and has worked with other local Roma
organisations to distribute aid consignments from the Soros Roma
Participation Project and Karitas Essen. This work has necessitated paying
transport costs for the consignments, hiring a truck to distribute the aid,
and having volunteers work from early morning to midnight. The stress on
volunteers includes risk of ethnic disputes, particularly when objections
have been raised by Albanian refugees to Roma receiving aid. Some volunteers
resigned following such an incident. There are large crowds of Roma outside
the DROM centre every day.

While this is going on, DROM volunteer workers have to cope with visits
from representatives of non-government organisations and enquiries from
foreign media. Situation reports are translated into four languages, and
daily news releases are provided to RomNews <http://www.romnews.com>. There
are also conferences and meetings with other organisations for planning and
coordination. Submissions have to be prepared for improved social welfare
from the government.

DROM has invested particular energy in fostering and preserving good
ethnic relations. Normal tensions are inflamed by the stress of war, and
small incidents can easily trigger nasty mob reactions. For this reason Roma
seek help from Roma families and from DROM and other Romani organisations.

DROM has received several donations from individuals in England and the
USA, and help from a Romani organization in Australia. These funds are
greatly appreciated but will soon be exhausted helping needy families. The
annual budget DROM receives from the Soros Roma Participation Project is
almost depleted. They may soon run out of the resources needed to continue
helping Roma refugees if more donations are not received soon. Donations can
be sent to the DROM bank account:


Stopanska Banka a.d.-Skopje
SWIFT:STOB MK 2X
Bank account: 40100-623-79
ZPP-Kumanovo- 40900-678-6121
Mailing Address:
Roma Community Centre "DROM" Kumanovo
Lokalitet serava prizemje 7a, 91300 Kumanovo
MACEDONIA

Tel/Fax: +(389) 90127558
Asmet Elezovski, e-mail: [email protected]

—– Original Message —–
From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
To: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> Dear Wally Keeler,
> I'll be glad to produce such work if you could hand me some documentation
> regarding your statement. Since I live here I can't see those things…

A Pleasant Fiction

The Human Rights Situation

of Roma in Macedonia

Country Reports Series, No. 7.

July 1998


http://errc.org/publications/reports/macedonia.pdf

—– Original Message —–
From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
To: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> Dear Wally Keeler,
> I'll be glad to produce such work if you could hand me some documentation
> regarding your statement. Since I live here I can't see those things…

Roma and the Kosovo conflict
In the first months of 1999, Roma fell victim to human rights violations in
Yugoslavia as a direct result of the conflict between ethnic Albanians on
the one hand, and Yugoslav security forces and ethnic Serb paramilitaries on
the other, as well as the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia.

A bomb explosion in the main market of Kosovska Mitrovica, north-western
Kosovo, killed a Romani girl named Elizabeta Hasani on March 13. The
Belgrade radio station B92 reported that two other people died in the blast,
and at least thirty were wounded. According to the Belgrade news-paper
Politika of February 14, unknown perpetrators killed Sali Salija, a Romani
man from the village of Jerli Tainovac. Several days earlier, according to
the same source, the corpse of Avdi Dzavit, a Romani man from Pristina, was
found on the road from Pristina to Urosevac. Two Romani men were among nine
wounded after a bomb exploded in the southern Kosovo town of Urosevac,
according to B92 on February 13. According to the Ministry of Interior of
the Republic of Serbia the bodies of two Roma, twenty-year-old Mr Dzemalj
Smaaei and sixteen-year-old Ms Sabaheta Zeka, were found on February 8, in
Djakovica - they were allegedly killed with automatic weapons by ethnic
Albanians. The same source reported that an armed group of ethnic Albanians
beat six Romani men - Rahman Rahmani, Hamiti Miftar, Baskimi Miftar, Sami
Miftar, Arben Miftar, Gazimend Miftar and Bedri Bahtiri - on January 14 in
the village of Brusnik, near Vueitrn.

In Serbia proper, on April 7, the TANJUG news agency reported that the NATO
bombing had caused a significant damage to the building of a primary school
attended predominantly by Romani students in Nis, central Serbia. On the
same day, the radio station 021 based in Novi Sad, northern Serbia, reported
that NATO planes bombed a local oil factory, causing damage to the
neighbouring predominantly Romani settlement of Sangaj. In both instances
there were no casualties reported. A witness from Novi Sad alleged that
local non-Roma initially did not allow some Roma into a shelter during an
air raid at the end of March.

The number of Roma who have fled from the violence-affected province to
other parts of Serbia is estimated to be in the thousands. On April 2, RTV
Serbia reported that up to 60,000 refugees, among them an unspecified number
of Roma, arrived from Kosovo to Serbia proper in the first week of NATO
bombing. On April 1 and 2, two groups of 300 refugees from Kosovo arrived to
Belgrade, both groups reportedly including Roma. Belgrade Romani
organisations state that there are as many as 5000 Romani refugees from
Kosovo in and around the capital city.

Amnesty International reported that as of April 6, 130,000 refugees were
registered in Macedonia. Local Romani NGOs recorded 1500 Romani refugees
from Kosovo; Romani member of Macedonian parliament Mr Amdi Bajram stated
during a session on April 7 that the number might be as high as 8000. As of
April 12, most of the Romani refugees in Macedonia were in Suto Orizari, the
Romani municipality of the Macedonian capital of Skopje. Other large groups
of Romani refugees are in the towns of Gostivar, Tetovo, Kieevo, Debar and
Kumanovo. Some Romani refugees state that other members of refugee convoys
told them menacingly that they should declare themselves as ethnic Albanians
in order to make the number of displaced Kosovo Albanians higher. In some
cases, Mace-donian border authorities reportedly did not allow Roma into the
country until their Macedonian relatives arrived and took financial
responsibility for them. Some Romani refugees interviewed by the ERRC in
Macedonia stated they fled from Kosovo because of heavy NATO bombing in the
area; some said they were expelled by Yugoslav Army and the police. Some
Roma from Kosovo are Muslim, some are Christian. Muslim Roma are reportedly
treated as Albanians by Serbian authorities and have been expelled from
their homes. Christian Roma allegedly suffered violence and threats from
ethnic Albanians.

There are reports of Romani refugees being discriminated in the distribution
of humanitarian assistance. Mr Amdi Bajram stated that at the
Yugoslav-Macedonian border crossing he saw ethnic Albanians receiving food
from members of El Hilal, a local Muslim humanitarian non-govern-mental
organisation, while Romani refugees were not given any. Mr Bajram said he
witnessed the same kind of discrimination against Roma by the Macedonian Red
Cross.

In Albania, United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) reported
on April 8 that twenty-six Roma from the Kosovo village of Orahovac were the
only people who managed to cross the Yugoslav-Albanian border at Morina,
near Kukes, on April 7, before it was closed by Yugoslav authorities. The
Roma interviewed stated that Serbian soldiers had expelled them from their
homes several hours earlier. (Amnesty International, B92, ERRC, Ministry of
Interior of the Republic of Serbia, Politika, Radio 021, RTV Serbia, TANJUG,
UNHCR)

—– Original Message —–
From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
To: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> Dear Wally Keeler,
> I'll be glad to produce such work if you could hand me some documentation
> regarding your statement. Since I live here I can't see those things…

Mrs Semsija Omeroviae, a 23-year-old Romani woman from Bosnia
In 1991, Mrs Semsija Omeroviae, at that time sixteen years old, came to
Berlin with her common-law husband from their hometown of Bijeljina, in
northeast Bosnia. In the time of former Yugoslavia, Bijeljina had a
flourishing Romani community of over six thousand persons, including
surrounding villages. Many Bijeljina Roma lived comparatively well since
many had relatives working abroad in Western Europe. Bosnian Serb
paramilitaries acting in conjunction with the Federal Yugoslav Army overran
Bijeljina in April 1992, and killed or expelled most of the non-Serbs who
had not already fled. Members of the Bosnian Serb military presently occupy
many of the houses owned by Roma from Bijeljina.

Mrs Omeroviae has not left Berlin since 1991, and in the meantime she has
been joined by most of the Bijeljina Romani community. At one point during
the Bosnian war there were 25,000-30,000 Bosnian refugees in Berlin. Of
these, six to eight thousand were Romani. There were over 290,000 Bosnian
refugees in Germany as a whole. Most Bosnians received the status of
"tolerated" (Duldung) - permission accorded by German authorities to be
excused from deportation for periods of between one month and several years.
Most Duldung are awarded for six months. In September 1996, the Interior
Ministers of all of the German states agreed that over the next few years,
Bosnians should go back to Bosnia and that various forms of pressure and
incentive would be applied to encourage them to do so. Beginning shortly
thereafter, many Bosnians stopped receiving Duldung and authorities began
pressuring them to leave.

The Omeroviae family have three children, all born in Berlin. The oldest one
attends a German school. Although previously they had always been reviewed
together, beginning in 1997 authorities began summoning Mrs Omeroviae and her
husband at different times, evidently now under the conviction that they
were not a family. In April 1997, Berlin authorities told Mrs Omeroviae that
the extension of the Duldung she was presently receiving would be her last.
She therefore engaged a lawyer and in July 1997 appealed this decision.

On October 1, 1997, upon expiration of her last Duldung, Mrs Omeroviae
received no extension. Rather, the authorities issued her a document called
a "border crossing permit" for herself and her three children. Her
"tolerated" status thereby vanished and the only effective right she had in
Germany was the right to cross the border and leave. Because of her appeal,
however, a deportation stop had been ordered by the court.

In April 1998, following a general decision in January 1998 by Berlin's
highest administrative court that it was unacceptable for authorities to
issue only border crossing permits without even the minimum of legal status
afforded by the Duldung, Mrs Omeroviae was again issued a six-month Duldung.
She was again told in April that the Duldung she was receiving would be her
last and she would not receive another.

In July 8, 1998, Mrs Omeroviae's lawyer reported that she had won the
complaint lodged the previous year. This decision would have no effect on
any subsequent decisions by the authorities, however, and on October 16,
1998, when she went to the authorities to extend her Duldung, she again
received four border crossing permits. In addition, she received a statement
threatening that she and her three children could be deported at any time. A
few days earlier, her husband had received a six month Duldung.

Mrs Omeroviae did not leave Berlin, because she has no place to go in Bosnia.
The conditions in her hometown - that the wider population and local
authorities are intent on keeping out non-Serbs - have not changed. In
addition, one of her children had bronchitis and an inflammation of his
thyroid glands. Becoming homeless in the Bosniak part of the Bosnian
Federation (the presumed fate of Mrs Omeroviae and her children) would not be
likely to improve this condition.

Mrs Omeroviae was subsequently ordered to present herself to the authorities
on November 16, 1998, for self-imposed deportation. On November 16, Mrs
Omeroviae went with her three children and a non-Romani woman named Irena
Eden. After waiting four and a half hours, Mrs Omeroviae was issued a
two-month Duldung on the basis of written medical testimony that one of her
children could not travel due to his medical condition.

In December 1998, the family as a whole registered for a collective return
project organised by the Foreigner Representative Office of the Berlin
Senate. Under the project, Romani families should reoccupy thirty-six houses
in which they formerly lived in Bijeljina, while new houses will be built
for the ethnic Serbs presently living there. The project is entirely in the
planning stage, however, and until it receives some measure of official
recognition, Mrs Omeroviae and her family still have grounds to fear
deportation.

Relatively detailed information about the high number of Roma among the
Bosnian refugees in Berlin is available because of the efforts of local
activists. It is therefore known that although the number of Bosnians in
Berlin has dropped to approximately 14,500 as of January 1999, Roma -
especially the large number of Roma from the the Bosnian Serb entity known
as Republika Srpska - have remained in Berlin. Faced with intense hostility
in Republika Srpska and cut off from many of the redevelopment projects in
Bosnia, they have literally nowhere to go.

A new German government was elected in autumn 1998. For the first time since
the early 1980s, conservative politics had been rejected in Germany, and the
new government set high on its agenda amending the much-criticised
foreigner-hostile law on German citizenship. Explicitly rejecting the
position taken by his predecessor Helmut Kohl, new Chancellor Gerhard
Schroder proclaimed, "Germany is a land of immigrants." This spirit of
openness and change did not penetrate to the Bosnian politics however;
review of the 1996 Interior Ministers decision that all Bosnians must go did
not appear on the government program published shortly after the election
and has not been a topic for public discussion at all. The press evidently
regards the issue as a dead letter and seems to assume that all the Bosnians
have already left. Efforts by the ERRC to publicise the story of Mrs
Omeroviae in the mainstream media in Germany in October and November 1998 met
with complete disinterest. (ERRC)

Hi Andrej
Very effective piece of imagery that you created for "remember.htm"

Since you are situated in Judgoslavija, perhaps you could also create a
powerful image of what Jugoslavija has done to its neighbours, and the
extraordinary, almost genocidal, violence that Jugoslavija commits daily
against its Romani (Gypsy) people currently. I mean you do want to be fair
and just, don't you? you could call it "overlooked_in_my_own_backyard.htm"

—– Original Message —–
From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> LOOK AND REMEMBER THE LOST OF INNOCENT CIVILIAN LIVES
> http://www.webheaven.co.yu/usa/remember.htm

—– Original Message —–
From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
To: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> Dear Wally Keeler,
> I'll be glad to produce such work if you could hand me some documentation
> regarding your statement. Since I live here I can't see those things…

I suspect that you are willfully blind.
I suggest that you clean up your own backyard before you decide to piss on
other people's carpets

> you
> mentioned, but we all know about American genocide of million innocent
> civilians all over the world.
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> To: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
> > Hi Andrej
> > Very effective piece of imagery that you created for "remember.htm"
> > Since you are situated in Judgoslavija, perhaps you could also create a
> > powerful image of what Jugoslavija has done to its neighbours, and the
> > extraordinary, almost genocidal, violence that Jugoslavija commits
daily
> > against its Romani (Gypsy) people currently. I mean you do want to be
fair
> > and just, don't you? you could call it
"overlooked_in_my_own_backyard.htm"
> >
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> > > LOOK AND REMEMBER THE LOST OF INNOCENT CIVILIAN LIVES
> > > http://www.webheaven.co.yu/usa/remember.htm

—– Original Message —–
From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
To: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> Dear Wally Keeler,
> I'll be glad to produce such work if you could hand me some documentation
> regarding your statement. Since I live here I can't see those things

Legislating ruin
Macedonia's Law on Commerce and the ensuing police violenceBy Claude Cahn
In July 1995, Macedonia passed a new Law on Commerce (Zakon za Trgovija).
This, together with the Law on Commercial Associations (Zakon za Trgovski
Drustva), passed in 1996, now provides a legal regime for small business
deemed more European than previous legislation. Previous legal norms
regulating trade dated from socialist Yugoslavia, or had been adopted during
the brief and unsuccessful attempt between 1989 and 1991 of the government
of Ante Markovia to introduce market reforms. Roma are heavily
over-represented among Macedonia's new legions of the unemployed and many
depend on street vending for their livelihood. The aftermath of the adoption
of the law has been two years of uninterrupted police beatings and at least
one death.

ECONOMIC PRECONDITIONS TO RUIN
Yugoslavia already had economic difficulties in the 1970s. Beginning in the
1980s, however, the entire structure of the Yugoslav economy began to change
and jobs Roma previously typically performed began to vanish. Many jobs for
unskilled manual labourers were replaced by machines. 45 year-old Nezad
Ibraimov told the ERRC:


My generation of Romani men in Koeani worked in the rice-fields doing work
such as carrying rice bags, loading and things like that. But in the early
1980s, we were all replaced by combine harvesters.
Following the loss of his job at the rice factory, Mr Ibraimov went to work
at a local brewery. According to him, approximately one hundred Roma had
been employed at the brewery. The work forte had been overwhelmingly Roma,
while the management had been primarily non-Roma. However, in 1990 the
brewery was privatised. This was a catastrophe for the Roma of Koeani:

A businessman bought it. We worked there for three or four more days and
then they came and told us, "You are free", and one hundred Roma lost their
jobs. Now it is all gadje [non-Roma] up there. We were replaced by non-Roma.
I think they have hired back two Roma.
Since the moment of its independence on September 17, 1991, Macedonia has
faced economic difficulties even beyond those of other countries from around
the former-Communist bloc. In addition to the technology lag and a large
public sector work forte, Macedonia has neighbour problems. Access to ports
in Albania has been rendered difficult due to state friction over
Macedonia's large Albanian minority as well as serious infrastructure and
security problems. The international trade embargo imposed on
rump-Yugoslavia in mid-1992 rendered trade with its former fellow-Yugoslav
republic difficult, given that Macedonia's political stability depended to a
large part on both Western friendliness and the UNPROFOR troops stationed
there. Further, although Western Europe lay at Macedonia's border with
Greece, that country imposed a trade blockade on Macedonia due to what
Greece perceived as an attempt by Macedonia to usurp Greek state symbols and
historical figures. Macedonia's most frequented trade route at present is
through Bulgaria to Turkey, although the Bulgarian border, too, is troubled
because of the complicated nature of Bulgarian-Macedonian relations.
The Macedonian economic catastrophe means near total unemployment for Roma
in the country. Official statistics report that unemployment in Macedonia is
currently approximately 10%. Unemployment among Roma is officially
approximately double that. The ERRC observed, however, a much deeper crisis
than the official statistics reflect, with evident massive chronic
unemployment among Roma. At present, thirty of the approximately one
thousand Roma living in Koeani have jobs, mostly working for the state
forestry service. Roma in the town of Prilep in southern-central Macedonia
reported similar problems. According to one local Rom:
There used to be factories here: textile factories like Biljana and Polytext
and big construction companies like Partizanka. All of them are closed now.
The only factory still open is the tobacco concern Tutunsky Kombinat. They
employ Roma, but only the ones who were already working there before 1990.
The young people finish school with absolutely no chance of getting a job in
the factories.
The overwhelming majority of the Roma with whom we spoke were living on
state social aid. Discrimination plays no small part in this situation.
Senaj Osmanov, a young Romani activist in Stip, told the ERRC:
The local shoe factory always has openings - they once advertised one
hundred and fifty jobs - but they never employ Roma. The requirements are
that you have completed eight-class primary school, so many qualified Roma
have applied, but they haven't hired a single Rom.
Approximately 5000 Roma live in Kumanovo in north-central Macedonia. Roma
with whom the ERRC spoke could name all of the people who still had jobs in
the state sector. Mr Bektesovski did not attribute the lack of jobs solely
to the economic crisis:
There is an economic crisis, yes. Times are bad for everybody, it is true.
But we notice that other Macedonians often get flats and jobs. Roma don't.
The result of the massive dismissal of Roma from the work force which took
place in Macedonia was manifold. First of all, Roma now often take on work
which is exploitative. Serdar Asanov, a 16-year-old Romani orphan living
with his aunt, told the ERRC that he regularly packs boxes of grapes for 10
Denars (less than 0.35 German Marks) per 20 kilo box. Some Roma, on the
other hand, turn to crime

—– Original Message —–
From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
To: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> Dear Wally Keeler,
> I'll be glad to produce such work if you could hand me some documentation
> regarding your statement. Since I live here I can't see those things…

Forced homelessness in Macedonia
On July 2, 1992, two rows of huts and shanties in the Roma ghetto in Stip,
east central Macedonia, burned to the ground, Tendering 150-180 Roma
homeless. The cause of the fire remains, today, unknown. At the time of the
blaze, according to the German non-governmental organisation Gesellschaft
fur bedrohte Volker, accusations ranged from accident to arson by two
members of the Macedonian nationalist party VMRO to arson by unknown persons
following a fight between a Serb and a Rom.
Following the fire, Roma Tendered homeless were housed in a student
dormitory in the centre of Stip. However, when the school year began one and
a half months later, they were evicted. Since that time, Roma who formerly
lived in the huts have either had to leave the area, live with family or
squat in abandoned buildings around Stip, since the city has not rebuilt the
houses, provided alternative housing, or granted permission to the Roma to
rebuild the huts. The ERRC visited Stip in August 1997. Mr Dusko Stojanov of
the Stip office of the Ministry for Construction and Urbanism told the ERRC:
"We approved a contract with a public enterprise to rebuild the barracks,
but they didn't have money to complete the project. The previous local
council also had an initiative to rebuild the bar racks in the old
settlement, but they too could not secure financing. Since the land belongs
to the Republic of Macedonia, they may not rebuild the houses on their own."
Mrs Biljana Kukuseva, the former director of the public enterprise
contracted to rebuild the houses told the ERRC:
"We planned a project for a small apartment building, but there was a
problem because there were more families than barracks, and therefore more
families than apartments. Furthermore, the municipal offices which issue
building permits wouldn't waive the fees for the various documents
necessary. We would have had to pay for a permit for electricity, for a
housing permit and a water and drainage fee, and since they wouldn't give us
waivers, we didn't get a building permit. The Roma were interested in
rebuilding on their own, but the problem is that the land is state owned, so
they weren't allowed to do so."
The local council told the ERRC that it has nothing to do with re-housing
Roma and Mr. Stanko Dimitrov, the director of the $tip social office told
the ERRC that his office had assisted only in providing emergency
accommodation and by distributing one-time emergency humanitarian help in
1992.
The result of this bureaucratic maze is that Roma who formerly lived in the
houses are simultaneously not being provided with housing, and are forbidden
from providing their own. The ERRC met with Roma who were still, five years
after the fire, living with relatives in overcrowded conditions in nearby
houses. Other Roma have been forced into a cycle of illegal tenancy and
eviction; at the time of the ERRC visit in mid-August 1997, Mrs Melana
Mehmedova was living with her four children in a mildewed basement they have
illegally occupied in the centre of Stip. She told the ERRC: "Following the
fire, we were put in a student's home, but when the school year started,
they kicked us out on the street. For a long time after that, we lived in
tents. Finally we found this basement and moved in."
This has caused the family problems: "We were in court and they ordered us
to move out and they made us pay 2800 Denars [approximately 90 German
Marka]. We didn't move though. Where would we go? A friend wrote an appeal
to the court, but we haven't heard any thing about that. The police were
here a month ago. They told us that we must leave this building. Also, our
neighbours come all the time and shout that we must leave. The city has lied
to us for five years. They told us we would receive housing, but nothing has
happened."
Macedonian law does not formally acknowledge the private ownership of land
and since 1991, almost the entire country has been the direct property of
the state. At the same time, municipalities either cannot afford or don't
want to pay to house Roma. This paradox has produced enforced nomadism for
the families rendered homeless by the Stip fire. (ERRC)

Dear Keeler,
I see you got much documents about Roma. But that "Yugoslavia" about which
you are talking does not exist any more, many of its parts have seceded in
last ten years. And other fault - there were Roma refugees in the Kosovo and
Macedonian war, but they were not a result of "Yugoslavian" politics at all,
but a result of Albanian Kosovo Liberation Army and Macedonian Albanian
National Army activities, that were fully SUPPORTED, ARMED, FINANCED,
LOGISTICALLY SUPPORTED by the U. S. A. Yes my dear, you heard well, if you
didn't know. And the result of the same politics are 300.000 Serb refugees
from Kosovo too.

—– Original Message —–
From: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
To: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 4:29 AM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Remember Crimes


> —– Original Message —–
> From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> To: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> > Dear Wally Keeler,
> > I'll be glad to produce such work if you could hand me some
documentation
> > regarding your statement. Since I live here I can't see those things…
>
> The Roma Refugees of Kosovo
>
> Text by Owen Durkin
> Photographs by Asmet Elezovski
>
> A flood of refugees has been entering Macedonia since late March 1999;
> many are ethnic Albanians from Kosovo, but some are Roma from Kosovo, yet
> other Roma are from Serbia. Kumanovo, Macedonia is near the Serbian border
> and has received many people from Serbia who have fled the NATO bombing,
or
> the conflict on the ground. There are also Roma fleeing ethnic hostility
> directed at them in Albania. Those identified as coming from Kosovo are
> accepted as "refugees" by the Macedonian government and the UNHCR; the
> others are "guests" or "tourists". The distinction is critical: a refugee
> has the right to remain in the country, receive medical treatment and
> humanitarian aid, and also the right to emigrate to another country.
Shabani
> is a Rom from Kosovo who has been registered in Kumanovo as a refugee, but
> he was told by Stenkovec authorities that one has to be Albanian or very
> rich to emigrate to another country; appeals to the UNHCR have been
> fruitless. Some Roma refugees head into the refugee camps; others seek
> billet accommodation with Roma families living in the area.
> The members of the Roma Community Centre "DROM" Kumanovo have been
> labouring to assist Roma refugees in the camps and in private homes,
> providing food, medical assistance, accommodation and other aid. The
> Macedonian Roma families who are hosting Roma refugees are not wealthy;
they
> need assistance to provide food, medicine, clothing and bedding. In some
> cases Roma have experienced discrimination or rejection by aid
organisation
> staff workers perceiving Roma as allied with the Serbians. DROM has drawn
> heavily on its own funds to assist Roma and has worked with other local
Roma
> organisations to distribute aid consignments from the Soros Roma
> Participation Project and Karitas Essen. This work has necessitated paying
> transport costs for the consignments, hiring a truck to distribute the
aid,
> and having volunteers work from early morning to midnight. The stress on
> volunteers includes risk of ethnic disputes, particularly when objections
> have been raised by Albanian refugees to Roma receiving aid. Some
volunteers
> resigned following such an incident. There are large crowds of Roma
outside
> the DROM centre every day.
>
> While this is going on, DROM volunteer workers have to cope with visits
> from representatives of non-government organisations and enquiries from
> foreign media. Situation reports are translated into four languages, and
> daily news releases are provided to RomNews <http://www.romnews.com>.
There
> are also conferences and meetings with other organisations for planning
and
> coordination. Submissions have to be prepared for improved social welfare
> from the government.
>
> DROM has invested particular energy in fostering and preserving good
> ethnic relations. Normal tensions are inflamed by the stress of war, and
> small incidents can easily trigger nasty mob reactions. For this reason
Roma
> seek help from Roma families and from DROM and other Romani organisations.
>
> DROM has received several donations from individuals in England and the
> USA, and help from a Romani organization in Australia. These funds are
> greatly appreciated but will soon be exhausted helping needy families. The
> annual budget DROM receives from the Soros Roma Participation Project is
> almost depleted. They may soon run out of the resources needed to continue
> helping Roma refugees if more donations are not received soon. Donations
can
> be sent to the DROM bank account:
>
>
> Stopanska Banka a.d.-Skopje
> SWIFT:STOB MK 2X
> Bank account: 40100-623-79
> ZPP-Kumanovo- 40900-678-6121
> Mailing Address:
> Roma Community Centre "DROM" Kumanovo
> Lokalitet serava prizemje 7a, 91300 Kumanovo
> MACEDONIA
>
> Tel/Fax: +(389) 90127558
> Asmet Elezovski, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Andrej Tisma wrote:

> America is the most influential country in the modern world (also most
> powerful, having most of the world's wealth, mightiest weapons for mass
> destruction) so it is most responsible for what is going on.

This is simply not true. Nor is any 'country' the 'most responsible'.

> And not just
> that, American leaders are planning and controlling crisis all over the
> world, because the most of the production goes from weapons industry. So
> there is a nice circle: oil-wars-weapons-oil-weapons…


Actually what you wrote before, as you write now is simplistic
and false nationalism driven political propaganda.

I'm not sure why you fancy that throwing lots and lots
of it will somehow make it any less ridiculous propaganda?

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, joseph (yes) wrote:

> And your prescription?

I am not speaking to you joseph.

Nor are you capable of nor qualified to 'discuss'
prescriptions.

You're not owed a thing.
And you will not get a thing.

—– Original Message —–
From: "MWP" <[email protected]>
> Methinks WK doth protest too much!
>
> Andrej T: As a native born citizen of these United States, I emphatically
> say that you are perfectly within your right to criticize the U.S. for the
> many horrific crimes of its past,

As a native born citizen of Canada I emphatically say you are perfectly
within your right to criticize the U.S., Canada and your own homelands for
their past and current crimes.

> and should not let a petty bully like this
> WK person bludgeon you into thinking otherwise.

There was no attempt to bully him nor otherwise pursuade him to think
otherwise. It was a request that he also include a powerful image of his own
homeland's crimes, not replace, not exclude USA crimes, but to add his own
homeland's crimes. He denies it of course, and you seem largely ignorant
that other nations have crimes.

> The last time I looked,
> one's conscience does not have a nationalistic stamp affixed to it.
Besides,
> the United States pisses on people in other countries all the time and
> thinks nothing of it, a fact that WK is ignoring his own blind self.

What a stupid idea that is. I have a long record of publishing criticisms of
the USA that goes back decades. If you want I can supply dates and
publications (Canadian). The USA's piss is but a gentle rain compared to the
lethal brutality Russia has been visiting on Chechnya for years and years.
Not a peep o f protest from the art's community of the West about that. Not
a fucken peep.

> Suggesting that one "clean up one's own backyard" is a ridiculous metaphor
> to apply to world affairs, as not a single nation's backyard on earth can
> ever be wiped clean unless people blind themselves to the facts of
history.

Tell that to Andrej T. who asserts that he has seen no crimes committed by
his own people. I've seen them. I've met some of the victims, the Romani
people, who have fled to Canada as refugees, and via refugee rights groups
that I work with here in Canada, I have learned of the lethal consequences
that are visited on them in the Balkans and throughout Europe. Think of the
deep south of the USA at the height of the KKK terrorist rule there, and you
will know what is happening to the Romani (Gypsy) people throughout
Europe – something you seem to want to ignore and remain ignorant about.

> We in the United States will never be able to whitewash the painful
reality
> of slavery, the de facto genociding of native Americans, etc.

It is the best thing for USAmerica that it never will be able to whitewash
it.

> It is an
> ineluctable part of America's history to be placed alongside the many
> glories America has achieved and has a right to be proud of, and if a few
of
> the more insecure citizens of our nation don't like others pointing out
our
> warts to us,

And IO have the right to point out the warts of Andrej T's homeland. Right?
Right?

> the best recourse they have is to show how far we ourselves
> have excised such past atrocities from our way of thinking instead of
> engaging in a silly game of tit for tat.

It is not a matter of tit for tat. Neither is it a matter of tat ONLY, as
you might desire.

> This of course assumes that we have
> actually made such gains in thinking, which is not entirely apparent given
> our current mindless saber-rattling in Iraq and elsewhere, which I think
is
> the point you are making so well in your piece.
> -m
>
> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

—– Original Message —–
From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> In today's Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) Roma have their own radio
> broadcasting, they are publishing books in Roma language, have schools in
> their own language. In Nis, the third greatest city of Yugoslavia 80% of
> population are Romas. So I really do not understand what this Wally is
> talking about.
> Macedonia, Bosnia are foreign countries for Yugoslavia.

It was not always so, and Jugoslavija decided the consequences will be
lethal for ex-countries of its "federation." The fact that there is a radio
& books in their own language is hardly of any significance. The country
seethes with racism against the Romani (Gypsy) people. So what that 80% of
NIS is Romani.

>
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> To: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 4:54 AM
> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Remember Crimes
>
>
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> > > Dear Wally Keeler,
> > > I'll be glad to produce such work if you could hand me some
> documentation
> > > regarding your statement. Since I live here I can't see those things
> >
> > Legislating ruin
> > Macedonia's Law on Commerce and the ensuing police violenceBy Claude
Cahn
> > In July 1995, Macedonia passed a new Law on Commerce (Zakon za
Trgovija).
> > This, together with the Law on Commercial Associations (Zakon za
Trgovski
> > Drustva), passed in 1996, now provides a legal regime for small business
> > deemed more European than previous legislation. Previous legal norms
> > regulating trade dated from socialist Yugoslavia, or had been adopted
> during
> > the brief and unsuccessful attempt between 1989 and 1991 of the
government
> > of Ante Markovia to introduce market reforms. Roma are heavily
> > over-represented among Macedonia's new legions of the unemployed and
many
> > depend on street vending for their livelihood. The aftermath of the
> adoption
> > of the law has been two years of uninterrupted police beatings and at
> least
> > one death.
> >
> > ECONOMIC PRECONDITIONS TO RUIN
> > Yugoslavia already had economic difficulties in the 1970s. Beginning in
> the
> > 1980s, however, the entire structure of the Yugoslav economy began to
> change
> > and jobs Roma previously typically performed began to vanish. Many jobs
> for
> > unskilled manual labourers were replaced by machines. 45 year-old Nezad
> > Ibraimov told the ERRC:
> >
> >
> > My generation of Romani men in Koeani worked in the rice-fields doing
work
> > such as carrying rice bags, loading and things like that. But in the
early
> > 1980s, we were all replaced by combine harvesters.
> > Following the loss of his job at the rice factory, Mr Ibraimov went to
> work
> > at a local brewery. According to him, approximately one hundred Roma had
> > been employed at the brewery. The work forte had been overwhelmingly
Roma,
> > while the management had been primarily non-Roma. However, in 1990 the
> > brewery was privatised. This was a catastrophe for the Roma of Koeani:
> >
> > A businessman bought it. We worked there for three or four more days and
> > then they came and told us, "You are free", and one hundred Roma lost
> their
> > jobs. Now it is all gadje [non-Roma] up there. We were replaced by
> non-Roma.
> > I think they have hired back two Roma.
> > Since the moment of its independence on September 17, 1991, Macedonia
has
> > faced economic difficulties even beyond those of other countries from
> around
> > the former-Communist bloc. In addition to the technology lag and a large
> > public sector work forte, Macedonia has neighbour problems. Access to
> ports
> > in Albania has been rendered difficult due to state friction over
> > Macedonia's large Albanian minority as well as serious infrastructure
and
> > security problems. The international trade embargo imposed on
> > rump-Yugoslavia in mid-1992 rendered trade with its former
fellow-Yugoslav
> > republic difficult, given that Macedonia's political stability depended
to
> a
> > large part on both Western friendliness and the UNPROFOR troops
stationed
> > there. Further, although Western Europe lay at Macedonia's border with
> > Greece, that country imposed a trade blockade on Macedonia due to what
> > Greece perceived as an attempt by Macedonia to usurp Greek state symbols
> and
> > historical figures. Macedonia's most frequented trade route at present
is
> > through Bulgaria to Turkey, although the Bulgarian border, too, is
> troubled
> > because of the complicated nature of Bulgarian-Macedonian relations.
> > The Macedonian economic catastrophe means near total unemployment for
Roma
> > in the country. Official statistics report that unemployment in
Macedonia
> is
> > currently approximately 10%. Unemployment among Roma is officially
> > approximately double that. The ERRC observed, however, a much deeper
> crisis
> > than the official statistics reflect, with evident massive chronic
> > unemployment among Roma. At present, thirty of the approximately one
> > thousand Roma living in Koeani have jobs, mostly working for the state
> > forestry service. Roma in the town of Prilep in southern-central
Macedonia
> > reported similar problems. According to one local Rom:
> > There used to be factories here: textile factories like Biljana and
> Polytext
> > and big construction companies like Partizanka. All of them are closed
> now.
> > The only factory still open is the tobacco concern Tutunsky Kombinat.
They
> > employ Roma, but only the ones who were already working there before
1990.
> > The young people finish school with absolutely no chance of getting a
job
> in
> > the factories.
> > The overwhelming majority of the Roma with whom we spoke were living on
> > state social aid. Discrimination plays no small part in this situation.
> > Senaj Osmanov, a young Romani activist in Stip, told the ERRC:
> > The local shoe factory always has openings - they once advertised one
> > hundred and fifty jobs - but they never employ Roma. The requirements
are
> > that you have completed eight-class primary school, so many qualified
Roma
> > have applied, but they haven't hired a single Rom.
> > Approximately 5000 Roma live in Kumanovo in north-central Macedonia.
Roma
> > with whom the ERRC spoke could name all of the people who still had jobs
> in
> > the state sector. Mr Bektesovski did not attribute the lack of jobs
solely
> > to the economic crisis:
> > There is an economic crisis, yes. Times are bad for everybody, it is
true.
> > But we notice that other Macedonians often get flats and jobs. Roma
don't.
> > The result of the massive dismissal of Roma from the work force which
took
> > place in Macedonia was manifold. First of all, Roma now often take on
work
> > which is exploitative. Serdar Asanov, a 16-year-old Romani orphan living
> > with his aunt, told the ERRC that he regularly packs boxes of grapes for
> 10
> > Denars (less than 0.35 German Marks) per 20 kilo box. Some Roma, on the
> > other hand, turn to crime

> Hi Andrej,
> Just for the record, publicly - A poignant piece, it paints a thousand,
no!
> a million woes…
> marc

I agree. Is there a single artist on this planet that has ever made a piece
as poignant about the genocide that Russia is meteing out to Chechnya. It
would seem to me that that is far worse than anything the USA is currently
up to. Why ignore the worst violence in the current world? Why does the
artistic community turn its face away from this grossly lethal atrocity?
Hmmm?

Well, of course, it pays to conform, to conform to the politically correct
way of thinking of the arts community, which is to slag the USA. This is not
to say that it should not do such – but the conformity to do so is
absolutely overwhelming.

All I have to do is suggest that other nations can also be slagged – and
get a load of the rallying, like lemmings, to stand by the USA-bashing
principle.

> > Dear Keeler,
> > I see you got much documents about Roma. But that "Yugoslavia" about
which
> > you are talking does not exist any more, many of its parts have seceded
in
> > last ten years. And other fault - there were Roma refugees in the Kosovo
> and
> > Macedonian war, but they were not a result of "Yugoslavian" politics at
> all,
> > but a result of Albanian Kosovo Liberation Army and Macedonian Albanian
> > National Army activities, that were fully SUPPORTED, ARMED, FINANCED,
> > LOGISTICALLY SUPPORTED by the U. S. A. Yes my dear, you heard well, if
you
> > didn't know. And the result of the same politics are 300.000 Serb
refugees
> > from Kosovo too.
> >
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 4:29 AM
> > Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Remember Crimes
> >
> >
> > > —– Original Message —–
> > > From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> > > To: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> > > > Dear Wally Keeler,
> > > > I'll be glad to produce such work if you could hand me some
> > documentation
> > > > regarding your statement. Since I live here I can't see those
> things…
> > >
> > > The Roma Refugees of Kosovo
> > >
> > > Text by Owen Durkin
> > > Photographs by Asmet Elezovski
> > >
> > > A flood of refugees has been entering Macedonia since late March
1999;
> > > many are ethnic Albanians from Kosovo, but some are Roma from Kosovo,
> yet
> > > other Roma are from Serbia. Kumanovo, Macedonia is near the Serbian
> border
> > > and has received many people from Serbia who have fled the NATO
bombing,
> > or
> > > the conflict on the ground. There are also Roma fleeing ethnic
hostility
> > > directed at them in Albania. Those identified as coming from Kosovo
are
> > > accepted as "refugees" by the Macedonian government and the UNHCR; the
> > > others are "guests" or "tourists". The distinction is critical: a
> refugee
> > > has the right to remain in the country, receive medical treatment and
> > > humanitarian aid, and also the right to emigrate to another country.
> > Shabani
> > > is a Rom from Kosovo who has been registered in Kumanovo as a refugee,
> but
> > > he was told by Stenkovec authorities that one has to be Albanian or
very
> > > rich to emigrate to another country; appeals to the UNHCR have been
> > > fruitless. Some Roma refugees head into the refugee camps; others seek
> > > billet accommodation with Roma families living in the area.
> > > The members of the Roma Community Centre "DROM" Kumanovo have been
> > > labouring to assist Roma refugees in the camps and in private homes,
> > > providing food, medical assistance, accommodation and other aid. The
> > > Macedonian Roma families who are hosting Roma refugees are not
wealthy;
> > they
> > > need assistance to provide food, medicine, clothing and bedding. In
some
> > > cases Roma have experienced discrimination or rejection by aid
> > organisation
> > > staff workers perceiving Roma as allied with the Serbians. DROM has
> drawn
> > > heavily on its own funds to assist Roma and has worked with other
local
> > Roma
> > > organisations to distribute aid consignments from the Soros Roma
> > > Participation Project and Karitas Essen. This work has necessitated
> paying
> > > transport costs for the consignments, hiring a truck to distribute the
> > aid,
> > > and having volunteers work from early morning to midnight. The stress
on
> > > volunteers includes risk of ethnic disputes, particularly when
> objections
> > > have been raised by Albanian refugees to Roma receiving aid. Some
> > volunteers
> > > resigned following such an incident. There are large crowds of Roma
> > outside
> > > the DROM centre every day.
> > >
> > > While this is going on, DROM volunteer workers have to cope with
> visits
> > > from representatives of non-government organisations and enquiries
from
> > > foreign media. Situation reports are translated into four languages,
and
> > > daily news releases are provided to RomNews <http://www.romnews.com>.
> > There
> > > are also conferences and meetings with other organisations for
planning
> > and
> > > coordination. Submissions have to be prepared for improved social
> welfare
> > > from the government.
> > >
> > > DROM has invested particular energy in fostering and preserving good
> > > ethnic relations. Normal tensions are inflamed by the stress of war,
and
> > > small incidents can easily trigger nasty mob reactions. For this
reason
> > Roma
> > > seek help from Roma families and from DROM and other Romani
> organisations.
> > >
> > > DROM has received several donations from individuals in England and
> the
> > > USA, and help from a Romani organization in Australia. These funds are
> > > greatly appreciated but will soon be exhausted helping needy families.
> The
> > > annual budget DROM receives from the Soros Roma Participation Project
is
> > > almost depleted. They may soon run out of the resources needed to
> continue
> > > helping Roma refugees if more donations are not received soon.
Donations
> > can
> > > be sent to the DROM bank account:
> > >
> > >
> > > Stopanska Banka a.d.-Skopje
> > > SWIFT:STOB MK 2X
> > > Bank account: 40100-623-79
> > > ZPP-Kumanovo- 40900-678-6121
> > > Mailing Address:
> > > Roma Community Centre "DROM" Kumanovo
> > > Lokalitet serava prizemje 7a, 91300 Kumanovo
> > > MACEDONIA
> > >
> > > Tel/Fax: +(389) 90127558
> > > Asmet Elezovski, e-mail: [email protected]
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> > -> post: [email protected]
> > -> questions: [email protected]
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >
>
>
> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

on 12/9/02 2:29 PM, Andrej Tisma at [email protected] wrote:

> LOOK AND REMEMBER THE LOST OF INNOCENT CIVILIAN LIVES
>
> http://www.webheaven.co.yu/usa/remember.htm
>
>

Methinks WK doth protest too much!

Andrej T: As a native born citizen of these United States, I emphatically
say that you are perfectly within your right to criticize the U.S. for the
many horrific crimes of its past, and should not let a petty bully like this
WK person bludgeon you into thinking otherwise. The last time I looked,
one's conscience does not have a nationalistic stamp affixed to it. Besides,
the United States pisses on people in other countries all the time and
thinks nothing of it, a fact that WK is ignoring his own blind self.
Suggesting that one "clean up one's own backyard" is a ridiculous metaphor
to apply to world affairs, as not a single nation's backyard on earth can
ever be wiped clean unless people blind themselves to the facts of history.
We in the United States will never be able to whitewash the painful reality
of slavery, the de facto genociding of native Americans, etc. It is an
ineluctable part of America's history to be placed alongside the many
glories America has achieved and has a right to be proud of, and if a few of
the more insecure citizens of our nation don't like others pointing out our
warts to us, the best recourse they have is to show how far we ourselves
have excised such past atrocities from our way of thinking instead of
engaging in a silly game of tit for tat. This of course assumes that we have
actually made such gains in thinking, which is not entirely apparent given
our current mindless saber-rattling in Iraq and elsewhere, which I think is
the point you are making so well in your piece.



-m

Dear Wally Keeler,
I'll be glad to produce such work if you could hand me some documentation
regarding your statement. Since I live here I can't see those things you
mentioned, but we all know about American genocide of million innocent
civilians all over the world.

—– Original Message —–
From: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
To: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 2:19 AM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Remember Crimes


> Hi Andrej
> Very effective piece of imagery that you created for "remember.htm"
>
> Since you are situated in Judgoslavija, perhaps you could also create a
> powerful image of what Jugoslavija has done to its neighbours, and the
> extraordinary, almost genocidal, violence that Jugoslavija commits daily
> against its Romani (Gypsy) people currently. I mean you do want to be fair
> and just, don't you? you could call it "overlooked_in_my_own_backyard.htm"
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> > LOOK AND REMEMBER THE LOST OF INNOCENT CIVILIAN LIVES
> > http://www.webheaven.co.yu/usa/remember.htm
>
>
>
>

But nowadays America is doing the greatest pissing on other people's
carpets.

—– Original Message —–
From: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
To: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 4:59 AM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Remember Crimes


> —– Original Message —–
> From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> To: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> > Dear Wally Keeler,
> > I'll be glad to produce such work if you could hand me some
documentation
> > regarding your statement. Since I live here I can't see those things…
>
> I suspect that you are willfully blind.
> I suggest that you clean up your own backyard before you decide to piss on
> other people's carpets
>
> > you
> > mentioned, but we all know about American genocide of million innocent
> > civilians all over the world.
> >
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
> > > Hi Andrej
> > > Very effective piece of imagery that you created for "remember.htm"
> > > Since you are situated in Judgoslavija, perhaps you could also create
a
> > > powerful image of what Jugoslavija has done to its neighbours, and
the
> > > extraordinary, almost genocidal, violence that Jugoslavija commits
> daily
> > > against its Romani (Gypsy) people currently. I mean you do want to be
> fair
> > > and just, don't you? you could call it
> "overlooked_in_my_own_backyard.htm"
> > >
> > > —– Original Message —–
> > > From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> > > > LOOK AND REMEMBER THE LOST OF INNOCENT CIVILIAN LIVES
> > > > http://www.webheaven.co.yu/usa/remember.htm
>
>
>
>

In today's Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) Roma have their own radio
broadcasting, they are publishing books in Roma language, have schools in
their own language. In Nis, the third greatest city of Yugoslavia 80% of
population are Romas. So I really do not understand what this Wally is
talking about.
Macedonia, Bosnia are foreign countries for Yugoslavia.


—– Original Message —–
From: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
To: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 4:54 AM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Remember Crimes


> —– Original Message —–
> From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> To: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> > Dear Wally Keeler,
> > I'll be glad to produce such work if you could hand me some
documentation
> > regarding your statement. Since I live here I can't see those things
>
> Legislating ruin
> Macedonia's Law on Commerce and the ensuing police violenceBy Claude Cahn
> In July 1995, Macedonia passed a new Law on Commerce (Zakon za Trgovija).
> This, together with the Law on Commercial Associations (Zakon za Trgovski
> Drustva), passed in 1996, now provides a legal regime for small business
> deemed more European than previous legislation. Previous legal norms
> regulating trade dated from socialist Yugoslavia, or had been adopted
during
> the brief and unsuccessful attempt between 1989 and 1991 of the government
> of Ante Markovia to introduce market reforms. Roma are heavily
> over-represented among Macedonia's new legions of the unemployed and many
> depend on street vending for their livelihood. The aftermath of the
adoption
> of the law has been two years of uninterrupted police beatings and at
least
> one death.
>
> ECONOMIC PRECONDITIONS TO RUIN
> Yugoslavia already had economic difficulties in the 1970s. Beginning in
the
> 1980s, however, the entire structure of the Yugoslav economy began to
change
> and jobs Roma previously typically performed began to vanish. Many jobs
for
> unskilled manual labourers were replaced by machines. 45 year-old Nezad
> Ibraimov told the ERRC:
>
>
> My generation of Romani men in Koeani worked in the rice-fields doing work
> such as carrying rice bags, loading and things like that. But in the early
> 1980s, we were all replaced by combine harvesters.
> Following the loss of his job at the rice factory, Mr Ibraimov went to
work
> at a local brewery. According to him, approximately one hundred Roma had
> been employed at the brewery. The work forte had been overwhelmingly Roma,
> while the management had been primarily non-Roma. However, in 1990 the
> brewery was privatised. This was a catastrophe for the Roma of Koeani:
>
> A businessman bought it. We worked there for three or four more days and
> then they came and told us, "You are free", and one hundred Roma lost
their
> jobs. Now it is all gadje [non-Roma] up there. We were replaced by
non-Roma.
> I think they have hired back two Roma.
> Since the moment of its independence on September 17, 1991, Macedonia has
> faced economic difficulties even beyond those of other countries from
around
> the former-Communist bloc. In addition to the technology lag and a large
> public sector work forte, Macedonia has neighbour problems. Access to
ports
> in Albania has been rendered difficult due to state friction over
> Macedonia's large Albanian minority as well as serious infrastructure and
> security problems. The international trade embargo imposed on
> rump-Yugoslavia in mid-1992 rendered trade with its former fellow-Yugoslav
> republic difficult, given that Macedonia's political stability depended to
a
> large part on both Western friendliness and the UNPROFOR troops stationed
> there. Further, although Western Europe lay at Macedonia's border with
> Greece, that country imposed a trade blockade on Macedonia due to what
> Greece perceived as an attempt by Macedonia to usurp Greek state symbols
and
> historical figures. Macedonia's most frequented trade route at present is
> through Bulgaria to Turkey, although the Bulgarian border, too, is
troubled
> because of the complicated nature of Bulgarian-Macedonian relations.
> The Macedonian economic catastrophe means near total unemployment for Roma
> in the country. Official statistics report that unemployment in Macedonia
is
> currently approximately 10%. Unemployment among Roma is officially
> approximately double that. The ERRC observed, however, a much deeper
crisis
> than the official statistics reflect, with evident massive chronic
> unemployment among Roma. At present, thirty of the approximately one
> thousand Roma living in Koeani have jobs, mostly working for the state
> forestry service. Roma in the town of Prilep in southern-central Macedonia
> reported similar problems. According to one local Rom:
> There used to be factories here: textile factories like Biljana and
Polytext
> and big construction companies like Partizanka. All of them are closed
now.
> The only factory still open is the tobacco concern Tutunsky Kombinat. They
> employ Roma, but only the ones who were already working there before 1990.
> The young people finish school with absolutely no chance of getting a job
in
> the factories.
> The overwhelming majority of the Roma with whom we spoke were living on
> state social aid. Discrimination plays no small part in this situation.
> Senaj Osmanov, a young Romani activist in Stip, told the ERRC:
> The local shoe factory always has openings - they once advertised one
> hundred and fifty jobs - but they never employ Roma. The requirements are
> that you have completed eight-class primary school, so many qualified Roma
> have applied, but they haven't hired a single Rom.
> Approximately 5000 Roma live in Kumanovo in north-central Macedonia. Roma
> with whom the ERRC spoke could name all of the people who still had jobs
in
> the state sector. Mr Bektesovski did not attribute the lack of jobs solely
> to the economic crisis:
> There is an economic crisis, yes. Times are bad for everybody, it is true.
> But we notice that other Macedonians often get flats and jobs. Roma don't.
> The result of the massive dismissal of Roma from the work force which took
> place in Macedonia was manifold. First of all, Roma now often take on work
> which is exploitative. Serdar Asanov, a 16-year-old Romani orphan living
> with his aunt, told the ERRC that he regularly packs boxes of grapes for
10
> Denars (less than 0.35 German Marks) per 20 kilo box. Some Roma, on the
> other hand, turn to crime

Hi Andrej,

Just for the record, publicly - A poignant piece, it paints a thousand, no!
a million woes…

marc



> Dear Keeler,
> I see you got much documents about Roma. But that "Yugoslavia" about which
> you are talking does not exist any more, many of its parts have seceded in
> last ten years. And other fault - there were Roma refugees in the Kosovo
and
> Macedonian war, but they were not a result of "Yugoslavian" politics at
all,
> but a result of Albanian Kosovo Liberation Army and Macedonian Albanian
> National Army activities, that were fully SUPPORTED, ARMED, FINANCED,
> LOGISTICALLY SUPPORTED by the U. S. A. Yes my dear, you heard well, if you
> didn't know. And the result of the same politics are 300.000 Serb refugees
> from Kosovo too.
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> To: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 4:29 AM
> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Remember Crimes
>
>
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> > > Dear Wally Keeler,
> > > I'll be glad to produce such work if you could hand me some
> documentation
> > > regarding your statement. Since I live here I can't see those
things…
> >
> > The Roma Refugees of Kosovo
> >
> > Text by Owen Durkin
> > Photographs by Asmet Elezovski
> >
> > A flood of refugees has been entering Macedonia since late March 1999;
> > many are ethnic Albanians from Kosovo, but some are Roma from Kosovo,
yet
> > other Roma are from Serbia. Kumanovo, Macedonia is near the Serbian
border
> > and has received many people from Serbia who have fled the NATO bombing,
> or
> > the conflict on the ground. There are also Roma fleeing ethnic hostility
> > directed at them in Albania. Those identified as coming from Kosovo are
> > accepted as "refugees" by the Macedonian government and the UNHCR; the
> > others are "guests" or "tourists". The distinction is critical: a
refugee
> > has the right to remain in the country, receive medical treatment and
> > humanitarian aid, and also the right to emigrate to another country.
> Shabani
> > is a Rom from Kosovo who has been registered in Kumanovo as a refugee,
but
> > he was told by Stenkovec authorities that one has to be Albanian or very
> > rich to emigrate to another country; appeals to the UNHCR have been
> > fruitless. Some Roma refugees head into the refugee camps; others seek
> > billet accommodation with Roma families living in the area.
> > The members of the Roma Community Centre "DROM" Kumanovo have been
> > labouring to assist Roma refugees in the camps and in private homes,
> > providing food, medical assistance, accommodation and other aid. The
> > Macedonian Roma families who are hosting Roma refugees are not wealthy;
> they
> > need assistance to provide food, medicine, clothing and bedding. In some
> > cases Roma have experienced discrimination or rejection by aid
> organisation
> > staff workers perceiving Roma as allied with the Serbians. DROM has
drawn
> > heavily on its own funds to assist Roma and has worked with other local
> Roma
> > organisations to distribute aid consignments from the Soros Roma
> > Participation Project and Karitas Essen. This work has necessitated
paying
> > transport costs for the consignments, hiring a truck to distribute the
> aid,
> > and having volunteers work from early morning to midnight. The stress on
> > volunteers includes risk of ethnic disputes, particularly when
objections
> > have been raised by Albanian refugees to Roma receiving aid. Some
> volunteers
> > resigned following such an incident. There are large crowds of Roma
> outside
> > the DROM centre every day.
> >
> > While this is going on, DROM volunteer workers have to cope with
visits
> > from representatives of non-government organisations and enquiries from
> > foreign media. Situation reports are translated into four languages, and
> > daily news releases are provided to RomNews <http://www.romnews.com>.
> There
> > are also conferences and meetings with other organisations for planning
> and
> > coordination. Submissions have to be prepared for improved social
welfare
> > from the government.
> >
> > DROM has invested particular energy in fostering and preserving good
> > ethnic relations. Normal tensions are inflamed by the stress of war, and
> > small incidents can easily trigger nasty mob reactions. For this reason
> Roma
> > seek help from Roma families and from DROM and other Romani
organisations.
> >
> > DROM has received several donations from individuals in England and
the
> > USA, and help from a Romani organization in Australia. These funds are
> > greatly appreciated but will soon be exhausted helping needy families.
The
> > annual budget DROM receives from the Soros Roma Participation Project is
> > almost depleted. They may soon run out of the resources needed to
continue
> > helping Roma refugees if more donations are not received soon. Donations
> can
> > be sent to the DROM bank account:
> >
> >
> > Stopanska Banka a.d.-Skopje
> > SWIFT:STOB MK 2X
> > Bank account: 40100-623-79
> > ZPP-Kumanovo- 40900-678-6121
> > Mailing Address:
> > Roma Community Centre "DROM" Kumanovo
> > Lokalitet serava prizemje 7a, 91300 Kumanovo
> > MACEDONIA
> >
> > Tel/Fax: +(389) 90127558
> > Asmet Elezovski, e-mail: [email protected]
> >
> >
>
>
>
> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Andrej Tisma wrote:

> But nowadays America is doing the greatest pissing on other people's
> carpets.

No, it isn't actually.

Without getting into 'greatest pissing contest,'
it is in fact Europe who is 'weakest' (due to world wars),
(this is stated without political or national associations)
and the Europeans simply love 'harrassing' Americans
without actually considering the results of such actions.

But hey, fraudulent ideological propaganda makes a career,
as any Yugoslavian would be politician would tell you.

Besides the apes just looove emotional and brain knee-jerking.
Especially if you attach a lofty slogan on your flag.

When I mentioned "pissing" I meant the preparation for oil war in Iraq for
example, where tens of thousands civilians (not Roma) will die.

—– Original Message —–
From: "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+" <[email protected]>
To: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
Cc: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 12:27 AM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Remember Crimes


> On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Andrej Tisma wrote:
>
> > But nowadays America is doing the greatest pissing on other people's
> > carpets.
>
> No, it isn't actually.
>
> Without getting into 'greatest pissing contest,'
> it is in fact Europe who is 'weakest' (due to world wars),
> (this is stated without political or national associations)
> and the Europeans simply love 'harrassing' Americans
> without actually considering the results of such actions.
>
> But hey, fraudulent ideological propaganda makes a career,
> as any Yugoslavian would be politician would tell you.
>
> Besides the apes just looove emotional and brain knee-jerking.
> Especially if you attach a lofty slogan on your flag.
>
>
>
>

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Andrej Tisma wrote:

> When I mentioned "pissing" I meant the preparation for oil war in Iraq for
> example, where tens of thousands civilians (not Roma) will die.

Yes, Andrej, I am aware. Not only that, but I have knowledge
of your own politicians agreeing_ to have 'thousands of
civilians die'. Not only that but they don't really care.

Not only that, but thousands of civilians get killed and abused daily.
Thousands of hundreds of humans are screaming in pain daily.
Thousands of hundreds of humans get exploited, emotionally damaged,
crippled, treated like objects, disrespected, shouted at, falsely
accussed, harrassed, and otherwise mistreated daily.

And it's not because of America.

America is the most influential country in the modern world (also most
powerful, having most of the world's wealth, mightiest weapons for mass
destruction) so it is most responsible for what is going on. And not just
that, American leaders are planning and controlling crisis all over the
world, because the most of the production goes from weapons industry. So
there is a nice circle: oil-wars-weapons-oil-weapons…


—– Original Message —–
From: "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+" <[email protected]>
To: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
Cc: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 2:39 AM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Remember Crimes


> On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Andrej Tisma wrote:
>
> > When I mentioned "pissing" I meant the preparation for oil war in Iraq
for
> > example, where tens of thousands civilians (not Roma) will die.
>
> Yes, Andrej, I am aware. Not only that, but I have knowledge
> of your own politicians agreeing_ to have 'thousands of
> civilians die'. Not only that but they don't really care.
>
> Not only that, but thousands of civilians get killed and abused daily.
> Thousands of hundreds of humans are screaming in pain daily.
> Thousands of hundreds of humans get exploited, emotionally damaged,
> crippled, treated like objects, disrespected, shouted at, falsely
> accussed, harrassed, and otherwise mistreated daily.
>
> And it's not because of America.
>
>
>

Quoting "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+" <[email protected]>:

> Not only that, but thousands of civilians get killed and abused daily.
> Thousands of hundreds of humans are screaming in pain daily.
> Thousands of hundreds of humans get exploited, emotionally damaged,
> crippled, treated like objects, disrespected, shouted at, falsely
> accussed, harrassed, and otherwise mistreated daily.

And your prescription?

joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
frank + lyn - mc + El + roy

go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
call me 646 279 2309

SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE - send email to
[email protected]

—– Original Message —–
From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> But nowadays America is doing the greatest pissing on other people's
> carpets.

Bullshit. Take a brief trip to Chechnya and witness wholesale continuing
genocide by Russia. While you are at it, take a good look at Russia's
dealings with it's other minorities. Get an education. Try to see things –
even in the Balkans. The fact that you see USAmerica so clearly is because
USAmerica is front&centre, warts and all – a nation of people more open and
free than the vast majority on this planet.

> —– Original Message —–
> From: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> To: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 4:59 AM
> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Remember Crimes
>
>
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> > > Dear Wally Keeler,
> > > I'll be glad to produce such work if you could hand me some
> documentation
> > > regarding your statement. Since I live here I can't see those
things…
> >
> > I suspect that you are willfully blind.
> > I suggest that you clean up your own backyard before you decide to piss
on
> > other people's carpets
> >
> > > you
> > > mentioned, but we all know about American genocide of million innocent
> > > civilians all over the world.
> > >
> > > —– Original Message —–
> > > From: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> > > To: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
> > > > Hi Andrej
> > > > Very effective piece of imagery that you created for "remember.htm"
> > > > Since you are situated in Judgoslavija, perhaps you could also
create
> a
> > > > powerful image of what Jugoslavija has done to its neighbours, and
> the
> > > > extraordinary, almost genocidal, violence that Jugoslavija commits
> > daily
> > > > against its Romani (Gypsy) people currently. I mean you do want to
be
> > fair
> > > > and just, don't you? you could call it
> > "overlooked_in_my_own_backyard.htm"
> > > >
> > > > —– Original Message —–
> > > > From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> > > > > LOOK AND REMEMBER THE LOST OF INNOCENT CIVILIAN LIVES
> > > > > http://www.webheaven.co.yu/usa/remember.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

—– Original Message —–
From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> When I mentioned "pissing" I meant the preparation for oil war in Iraq for
> example, where tens of thousands civilians (not Roma) will die.

Get a grip on reality Andrej, and for once set aside your overwhelming urge
to conform to the artistic masses. Hundreds of thousands of civilians have
died and are continuing to die in Chechnya at the hands of Russia. Where the
hell is your poignant art concerning that?

>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+" <[email protected]>
> To: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> Cc: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 12:27 AM
> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Remember Crimes
>
>
> > On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Andrej Tisma wrote:
> >
> > > But nowadays America is doing the greatest pissing on other people's
> > > carpets.
> >
> > No, it isn't actually.
> >
> > Without getting into 'greatest pissing contest,'
> > it is in fact Europe who is 'weakest' (due to world wars),
> > (this is stated without political or national associations)
> > and the Europeans simply love 'harrassing' Americans
> > without actually considering the results of such actions.
> >
> > But hey, fraudulent ideological propaganda makes a career,
> > as any Yugoslavian would be politician would tell you.
> >
> > Besides the apes just looove emotional and brain knee-jerking.
> > Especially if you attach a lofty slogan on your flag.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

—– Original Message —–
From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> America is the most influential country in the modern world (also most
> powerful, having most of the world's wealth, mightiest weapons for mass
> destruction) so it is most responsible for what is going on.

And your suggestion is that the USA should remove itself from countries all
over the world?

> And not just
> that, American leaders are planning and controlling crisis all over the
> world,

Bullshit. That's nothing more than an idiot conspiracy theory put out by
communist ideology during the Cold War (which may have infected your
education, given that Jugoslavija was and has b een a dictatorshit for a
large part of the 20th century) which has now been supplanted by
Islamic-extremist ideology.

> because the most of the production goes from weapons industry. So
> there is a nice circle: oil-wars-weapons-oil-weapons…

Financed by the Jewish money powers and propagandized by the
Jewish-controlled media, no doubt.

>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+" <[email protected]>
> To: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> Cc: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 2:39 AM
> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Remember Crimes
>
>
> > On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Andrej Tisma wrote:
> >
> > > When I mentioned "pissing" I meant the preparation for oil war in Iraq
> for
> > > example, where tens of thousands civilians (not Roma) will die.
> >
> > Yes, Andrej, I am aware. Not only that, but I have knowledge
> > of your own politicians agreeing_ to have 'thousands of
> > civilians die'. Not only that but they don't really care.
> >
> > Not only that, but thousands of civilians get killed and abused daily.
> > Thousands of hundreds of humans are screaming in pain daily.
> > Thousands of hundreds of humans get exploited, emotionally damaged,
> > crippled, treated like objects, disrespected, shouted at, falsely
> > accussed, harrassed, and otherwise mistreated daily.
> >
> > And it's not because of America.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

—– Original Message —–
From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> Dear Keeler,
> I see you got much documents about Roma. But that "Yugoslavia" about which
> you are talking does not exist any more, many of its parts have seceded in
> last ten years. And other fault - there were Roma refugees in the Kosovo
and
> Macedonian war, but they were not a result of "Yugoslavian" politics at
all,
> but a result of Albanian Kosovo Liberation Army and Macedonian Albanian
> National Army activities, that were fully SUPPORTED, ARMED, FINANCED,
> LOGISTICALLY SUPPORTED by the U. S. A. Yes my dear, you heard well, if you
> didn't know. And the result of the same politics are 300.000 Serb refugees
> from Kosovo too.

Poor little Jugoslavija, beat up and bashed by everyone, a perpetual
victim. You are willfully blind and gullible to your own nation's
propaganda. And you have the nerve to post your exclusive anti-USA to the
world. You have a right to do that. I have met too many Romani (Gypsy)
refugees in Canada (because I work with some), and seen enough film footage
of the same, to know damn well that racism is alive and well in
Serbia/Montenegra, as well as the other Balkan spin-offs formerly dominated
by Serbia. Your critical outlook of the USA would be all the more powerful
if you were seen to expose the crimes of your own nation as well.


> —– Original Message —–
> From: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> To: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 4:29 AM
> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Remember Crimes
>
>
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
> > > Dear Wally Keeler,
> > > I'll be glad to produce such work if you could hand me some
> documentation
> > > regarding your statement. Since I live here I can't see those
things…
> >
> > The Roma Refugees of Kosovo
> >
> > Text by Owen Durkin
> > Photographs by Asmet Elezovski
> >
> > A flood of refugees has been entering Macedonia since late March 1999;
> > many are ethnic Albanians from Kosovo, but some are Roma from Kosovo,
yet
> > other Roma are from Serbia. Kumanovo, Macedonia is near the Serbian
border
> > and has received many people from Serbia who have fled the NATO bombing,
> or
> > the conflict on the ground. There are also Roma fleeing ethnic hostility
> > directed at them in Albania. Those identified as coming from Kosovo are
> > accepted as "refugees" by the Macedonian government and the UNHCR; the
> > others are "guests" or "tourists". The distinction is critical: a
refugee
> > has the right to remain in the country, receive medical treatment and
> > humanitarian aid, and also the right to emigrate to another country.
> Shabani
> > is a Rom from Kosovo who has been registered in Kumanovo as a refugee,
but
> > he was told by Stenkovec authorities that one has to be Albanian or very
> > rich to emigrate to another country; appeals to the UNHCR have been
> > fruitless. Some Roma refugees head into the refugee camps; others seek
> > billet accommodation with Roma families living in the area.
> > The members of the Roma Community Centre "DROM" Kumanovo have been
> > labouring to assist Roma refugees in the camps and in private homes,
> > providing food, medical assistance, accommodation and other aid. The
> > Macedonian Roma families who are hosting Roma refugees are not wealthy;
> they
> > need assistance to provide food, medicine, clothing and bedding. In some
> > cases Roma have experienced discrimination or rejection by aid
> organisation
> > staff workers perceiving Roma as allied with the Serbians. DROM has
drawn
> > heavily on its own funds to assist Roma and has worked with other local
> Roma
> > organisations to distribute aid consignments from the Soros Roma
> > Participation Project and Karitas Essen. This work has necessitated
paying
> > transport costs for the consignments, hiring a truck to distribute the
> aid,
> > and having volunteers work from early morning to midnight. The stress on
> > volunteers includes risk of ethnic disputes, particularly when
objections
> > have been raised by Albanian refugees to Roma receiving aid. Some
> volunteers
> > resigned following such an incident. There are large crowds of Roma
> outside
> > the DROM centre every day.
> >
> > While this is going on, DROM volunteer workers have to cope with
visits
> > from representatives of non-government organisations and enquiries from
> > foreign media. Situation reports are translated into four languages, and
> > daily news releases are provided to RomNews <http://www.romnews.com>.
> There
> > are also conferences and meetings with other organisations for planning
> and
> > coordination. Submissions have to be prepared for improved social
welfare
> > from the government.
> >
> > DROM has invested particular energy in fostering and preserving good
> > ethnic relations. Normal tensions are inflamed by the stress of war, and
> > small incidents can easily trigger nasty mob reactions. For this reason
> Roma
> > seek help from Roma families and from DROM and other Romani
organisations.
> >
> > DROM has received several donations from individuals in England and
the
> > USA, and help from a Romani organization in Australia. These funds are
> > greatly appreciated but will soon be exhausted helping needy families.
The
> > annual budget DROM receives from the Soros Roma Participation Project is
> > almost depleted. They may soon run out of the resources needed to
continue
> > helping Roma refugees if more donations are not received soon. Donations
> can
> > be sent to the DROM bank account:
> >
> >
> > Stopanska Banka a.d.-Skopje
> > SWIFT:STOB MK 2X
> > Bank account: 40100-623-79
> > ZPP-Kumanovo- 40900-678-6121
> > Mailing Address:
> > Roma Community Centre "DROM" Kumanovo
> > Lokalitet serava prizemje 7a, 91300 Kumanovo
> > MACEDONIA
> >
> > Tel/Fax: +(389) 90127558
> > Asmet Elezovski, e-mail: [email protected]
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Quoting "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+" <[email protected]>:

> I am not speaking to you joseph.
>
> Nor are you capable of nor qualified to 'discuss'
> prescriptions.
>
> You're not owed a thing.
> And you will not get a thing.

I didn't ask for a thing. Nor did I ask to discuss prescriptions. You already
answered why it is appropriate to participate in a public forum. You are
defensive.


joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
frank + lyn - mc + El + roy

go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
call me 646 279 2309

SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE - send email to
[email protected]

If you have a big gaping wound spouting blood from an artery, or a bullet near
that brain that with one move of the body will cause a fatal injury…which do
you fix first? Which is more important?

Everytime a bleeding heart brings up some anti-war rhetoric, wally trots out
the "why ain't you crying for Chechnya" argument.

Its a bore on both sides. Make something.

joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
frank + lyn - mc + El + roy

go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
call me 646 279 2309

SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE - send email to
[email protected]





Quoting Wally Keeler <[email protected]>:

> —– Original Message —–
> From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> > When I mentioned "pissing" I meant the preparation for oil war in Iraq for
> > example, where tens of thousands civilians (not Roma) will die.
>
> Get a grip on reality Andrej, and for once set aside your overwhelming urge
> to conform to the artistic masses. Hundreds of thousands of civilians have
> died and are continuing to die in Chechnya at the hands of Russia. Where the
> hell is your poignant art concerning that?
>
> >
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> > Cc: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 12:27 AM
> > Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Remember Crimes
> >
> >
> > > On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Andrej Tisma wrote:
> > >
> > > > But nowadays America is doing the greatest pissing on other people's
> > > > carpets.
> > >
> > > No, it isn't actually.
> > >
> > > Without getting into 'greatest pissing contest,'
> > > it is in fact Europe who is 'weakest' (due to world wars),
> > > (this is stated without political or national associations)
> > > and the Europeans simply love 'harrassing' Americans
> > > without actually considering the results of such actions.
> > >
> > > But hey, fraudulent ideological propaganda makes a career,
> > > as any Yugoslavian would be politician would tell you.
> > >
> > > Besides the apes just looove emotional and brain knee-jerking.
> > > Especially if you attach a lofty slogan on your flag.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php

But who was first to mention one's country? I sent in my work "Remember
Crime" without mentioning any country, just images and expression of grief
and anger over civilian victims. Someone recognized there some country,
America, and asked me to make a work about Yugoslavia where I live. So you
started to talk about countries, not me.
And stop insulting, be fine as a civilized person should be.

—– Original Message —–
From: "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+" <[email protected]>
To: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
Cc: "MWP" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 5:27 AM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Remember Crimes


>
> > I hope this will be published despite the conspiracy, or simply
censorship
> > ;)
>
> Uh, right. What censorship? What publishing?
> Nobody is censoring you. You are simply trying to stir-up attention.
> Not swallowing your crap is not censorship.
>
> > Well, why would I write about my country? I can write about what I want.
>
> Because babycheeks, sincere research into the matter would reveal
> that it's not all America's fault, and that your piece is cheaply
> exploitative and full of false propaganda.
>
> Nor can you 'write whatever you want'. But that's another story.
>
> > This is an international network and list, and we can discuss anything.
>
> Including that what you present is false, and what it really is aimed at
> doing. And the latter is not a conspiracy and censorship.
>
> > You will not give me tasks what to write and what to do.
>
> We haven't even attempted to give you tasks, babycheeks.
> Merely suggested uncomprtable areas you're 'conveniently'
> leaving out, some of them which lead to sources closer to home.
>
> We have also pointed out that what you're writing
> is shallow nationalistic propaganda.
>
> > Or maybe you are used to it in your free country?
>
> We don't know Andrej, what do you think?
> We are not 'our country'. We do not suffer from
> your cheap, idiotic, and simplistic nationalistic
> identification.
>
> Don't you find it a bit odd, that you're trying to raise
> a false alarm, replying with a bunch of meaningless drivel
> ignoring reality, and finally attempting to again_
> incite 'my country vs. your country' idiocy?
>
> There is no 'country competition'.
> You're simply by driven by idiotic nationalism,
> which exacerbates rather than elevates any 'human problems'.
>
> And you are being treateed as an individual unit who does that.
>
>
>
>
>

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, joseph (yes) wrote:

> You consistently deny responsibility for your communication. I have no
> delusions.

Babycheeks, we deny no responsibility for our communication.
We are perfectly responsible. What we are not_ responsible
for is your illiteracy, which is your_ responsibility_ and not
a failure on our behalf.

Secondly, you have no idea what responsibility is, nor are you capable
of it, nor judging others with regards to it.

You're simply mouthing off.

Lastly, you are nothing_ but_ delusions.

An idiotic ego-driven empty shell.

You can_ have nothing but delusions.

—– Original Message —–
From: "joseph (yes)" <[email protected]>
> > If you have a big gaping wound spouting blood from an artery in one
person
> > and lethal threats being made against another person, which do you
intervene
> > to save first? Which is more crucial to fix?
>
> You don't stop the person calling the police because you want a doctor
first.

Indeed, one does call the police when a power invades to house next door and
kills hundreds of thousands, gases to death minorities within their own
home, then invades the house on the other side, and continues to make
lethal threats against another minority.

Quoting "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+" <[email protected]>:

> You can_ have nothing but delusions.

Living in a delusion, you are incapable of discerning delusions.

joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
frank + lyn - mc + El + roy

go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
call me 646 279 2309

SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE - send email to
[email protected]

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, joseph (yes) wrote:

> Living in a delusion, you are incapable of discerning delusions.

You meant to type, "Living in delusions, I am incapable of
descerning illusions," babycheeks.

You're not capable of speaking of anyone besides yourself,
idiotic cuckoo. Nor are you capable of doing anything
but peddling your ego.

It doesn't matter how many words you juggle about,
you will still remain a catatonic egotistical idiot.

I hope this will be published despite the conspiracy, or simply censorship
;)
Well, why would I write about my country? I can write about what I want.
This is an international network and list, and we can discuss anything. You
will not give me tasks what to write and what to do. Or maybe you are used
to it in your free country?

—– Original Message —–
From: "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+" <[email protected]>
To: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
Cc: "MWP" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Remember Crimes


> On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Andrej Tisma wrote:
>
> > Thank you very much for understanding. But did you notice that this
message
> > of support of my work was not published on the list? American list!
>
> Shh. It's a grand American political conspiracy.
>
> Of course, Andrej is not making a simplistic
> trash-journalism type drivel 'work' on a
> 'pseudo-sensitive' topic and attempting to 'ride out'
> a controversy caused out by stirring simple
> programmatic responses in humans. Not at all.
>
> It's so.. 'poignant' to knee-jerk humans with 'grand causes'.
> Totally unlike cheap Yugoslavian politicians.
>
> Hey, Andrej, if you're truly interested in the subject,
> why don't you investigate it in full? Why don't you investigate
> Yugoslavian politicians selling humans like cattle?
>
> Then you can come and speak to us how it's all America's fault.
>
> :)
>
>
>
>

> I hope this will be published despite the conspiracy, or simply censorship
> ;)

Uh, right. What censorship? What publishing?
Nobody is censoring you. You are simply trying to stir-up attention.
Not swallowing your crap is not censorship.

> Well, why would I write about my country? I can write about what I want.

Because babycheeks, sincere research into the matter would reveal
that it's not all America's fault, and that your piece is cheaply
exploitative and full of false propaganda.

Nor can you 'write whatever you want'. But that's another story.

> This is an international network and list, and we can discuss anything.

Including that what you present is false, and what it really is aimed at
doing. And the latter is not a conspiracy and censorship.

> You will not give me tasks what to write and what to do.

We haven't even attempted to give you tasks, babycheeks.
Merely suggested uncomprtable areas you're 'conveniently'
leaving out, some of them which lead to sources closer to home.

We have also pointed out that what you're writing
is shallow nationalistic propaganda.

> Or maybe you are used to it in your free country?

We don't know Andrej, what do you think?
We are not 'our country'. We do not suffer from
your cheap, idiotic, and simplistic nationalistic
identification.

Don't you find it a bit odd, that you're trying to raise
a false alarm, replying with a bunch of meaningless drivel
ignoring reality, and finally attempting to again_
incite 'my country vs. your country' idiocy?

There is no 'country competition'.
You're simply by driven by idiotic nationalism,
which exacerbates rather than elevates any 'human problems'.

And you are being treateed as an individual unit who does that.

Quoting "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+" <[email protected]>:

> No amount of defensiveness is going to change what you are
> babycheeks, nor any amounts of self-hypnotizing, delusional
> fantasizing about yourself. Ah, should have said "creative
> mythologizing".

The more you write, the more defensiveness you display.

joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
frank + lyn - mc + El + roy

go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
call me 646 279 2309

SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE - send email to
[email protected]





> On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, joseph (yes) wrote:
>
> > I wrote what I meant. You are unable to understand.
>
> No babycheeks. You are not capable of writing what you mean.
> You're simply juggling verbal concepts inside your brain,
> and attempting to dictate reality in such manner.
>
> It doesn't work that way, delusional dictatorial ape,
> and the story you keep telling yourself doesn't contain
> anything to be 'understood'.
>
> We are perfectly capable of "understanding" what you are:
> a said, empty idiotic egotistical cuckoo.
>

> There was no attempt to bully him nor otherwise pursuade him to think
otherwise. It was a request

If you truly believe this, WK, then I suggest you go back and reread what
you wrote! It was no request you made but a blatant bullying demand to shut
up.

> you seem largely ignorant that other nations have crimes

Huh??? But I made exactly the OPPOSITE point, that ALL nations contain
backyards stuffed with crimes of various sorts! Where is your head?

> The USA's piss is but a gentle rain compared to the lethal brutality Russia
has been visiting on Chechnya for years and years.

Oh yeah? Tell that to the many thousands of murdered and tortured African
slaves, Native Americans, Vietnamese, etc. Besides, this is not a question
of degrees but of morality. Don't try and play some silly bean-counting game
with me!

> I have a long record of publishing criticisms of the USA that goes back
decades.

Yes, I am totally ignorant of your record on criticizing the US and frankly
don't care to read it if it is as poorly reasoned as your response to me has
been here. From your hyperbolic attack on AT, which is all I know you by,
you come across like a typical knee-jerk right-wing knucklehead. If there
are nuances to your position, then you should state them for those of us who
don't wish to do the background research behind every crass assertion that
crosses our paths. Oh, and here's a peep for you: Russia's assault against
Chechnya is ugly, vicious and brutal in the extreme. I will happily go as
far as you like in condemning it, as what is happening there offends me
deeply.

> Not a peep o f protest from the art's community of the West about that.

I gather from this strange non-sequiter that you think the art community is
afraid to criticize Russia because of some lingering sentiment for Soviet
Marxism or something? I don't get the logic behind this assertion. What do
Russia's atrocities in Chechnya have to do with the core of this debate?

> the Romani (Gypsy) people throughout Europe – something you seem to want to
ignore and remain ignorant about.

I am not ignoring anything! There is absolutely nothing in my words that
would lead anybody to read me that way. This was the whole point of my
rebuttal to you. I wish to make ALL of history known, warts included. I have
no nationalistic agenda to promote, simply a desire to expose the truth and
to encourage a compassion for those who are suffering around the globe,
including the Roma, the Chechyans, and, yes, even Americans and Canadians if
need be.

> And IO have the right to point out the warts of Andrej T's homeland. Right?
Right?

Sa-right. Yes, absolutely. I never suggested otherwise. If you got the
facts, I'd like to see them myself.

As for telling anything to AT, I will let him learn the history of his
people the hard way, by waking up to it. Clearly there are some biases in
his position that I don't entirely support. My comments are not meant to
correct anybody's distortions of history – which would be a herculean, if
not sisyphean, task – but to encourage people to approach history with a
conscience and see the suffering inflicted upon innocents as deeply wrong
wherever it takes place, which is what I think AT's piece does to some
degree. I think we should encourage more pieces like his that express a
moral outrage over the crimes of nations, rather than tell people to shut up
about it because they don't happen to be from the country where the crimes
are taking place or some equally lame excuse.


-m

From: "MWP" <[email protected]>
> > There was no attempt to bully him nor otherwise pursuade him to think
> otherwise. It was a request
>
> If you truly believe this, WK, then I suggest you go back and reread what
> you wrote! It was no request you made but a blatant bullying demand to
shut
> up.

This is what I wrote:
Hi Andrej
Very effective piece of imagery that you created for "remember.htm"
Since you are situated in Judgoslavija, perhaps you could also create a
powerful image of what Jugoslavija has done to its neighbours, and the
extraordinary, almost genocidal, violence that Jugoslavija commits daily
against its Romani (Gypsy) people currently. I mean you do want to be fair
and just, don't you? you could call it "overlooked_in_my_own_backyard.htm"

There was absolutely no request to "shut up" as you put it. You are full of
it. There is no bullying in that message.

> > you seem largely ignorant that other nations have crimes
>
> Huh??? But I made exactly the OPPOSITE point, that ALL nations contain
> backyards stuffed with crimes of various sorts! Where is your head?
>
> > The USA's piss is but a gentle rain compared to the lethal brutality
Russia
> has been visiting on Chechnya for years and years.
>
> Oh yeah? Tell that to the many thousands of murdered and tortured African
> slaves, Native Americans, Vietnamese, etc. Besides, this is not a question
> of degrees but of morality. Don't try and play some silly bean-counting
game
> with me!

Tell that to the Chechnyans. It is morality, not bean-counting. I prefer to
focus on the worst here-and-now. What is your promary focus.

> > I have a long record of publishing criticisms of the USA that goes back
> decades.
>
> Yes, I am totally ignorant of your record on criticizing the US and
frankly
> don't care to read it if it is as poorly reasoned as your response to me
has
> been here. From your hyperbolic attack on AT, which is all I know you by,
> you come across like a typical knee-jerk right-wing knucklehead. If there
> are nuances to your position, then you should state them for those of us
who
> don't wish to do the background research behind every crass assertion that
> crosses our paths. Oh, and here's a peep for you: Russia's assault against
> Chechnya is ugly, vicious and brutal in the extreme. I will happily go as
> far as you like in condemning it, as what is happening there offends me
> deeply.

Had to pull it out of you. You wouldn't have volunteered it except in these
circumstances.

> > Not a peep o f protest from the art's community of the West about that.
>
> I gather from this strange non-sequiter that you think the art community
is
> afraid to criticize Russia because of some lingering sentiment for Soviet
> Marxism or something? I don't get the logic behind this assertion. What do
> Russia's atrocities in Chechnya have to do with the core of this debate?

However, there is not a peep from the arts community, in spite of the fact
that hundreds of thousands of people have been slaughtered and so it
continues today. Of course you wouldn;t get the logic. The arts community is
superior isn't it – righteous.

> > the Romani (Gypsy) people throughout Europe – something you seem to
want to
> ignore and remain ignorant about.
>
> I am not ignoring anything! There is absolutely nothing in my words that
> would lead anybody to read me that way. This was the whole point of my
> rebuttal to you. I wish to make ALL of history known, warts included. I
have
> no nationalistic agenda to promote, simply a desire to expose the truth
and
> to encourage a compassion for those who are suffering around the globe,
> including the Roma, the Chechyans, and, yes, even Americans and Canadians
if
> need be.

Sorry, but you didn't bring u p anything. I brought up th e Roma, Chechnya.
So why condemn me for bringing them up? Huh?

> > And IO have the right to point out the warts of Andrej T's homeland.
Right?
> Right?
>
> Sa-right. Yes, absolutely. I never suggested otherwise. If you got the
> facts, I'd like to see them myself.

I posted some of them. There are sources for more. However, what is your
beef? I asked Andrej T to produce a piece concerning his own turf as well
the one about U SA. What is your problem with that. Andrej thinks his turf
is blameless for anything – if this is true, then it is unique in the
world. He doesn't see it.

> As for telling anything to AT, I will let him learn the history of his
> people the hard way, by waking up to it. Clearly there are some biases in
> his position that I don't entirely support. My comments are not meant to
> correct anybody's distortions of history – which would be a herculean, if
> not sisyphean, task – but to encourage people to approach history with a
> conscience and see the suffering inflicted upon innocents as deeply wrong
> wherever it takes place, which is what I think AT's piece does to some
> degree. I think we should encourage more pieces like his that express a
> moral outrage over the crimes of nations, rather than tell people to shut
up

Which I didn;t do, except in your silly imagination. Quite the opposite.
I wrote: "Very effective piece of imagery that you created for
"remember.htm"
Since you are situated in Judgoslavija, perhaps you could also create a
powerful image of what Jugoslavija has done to its neighbours,…"

So my initial message to AT complied with your hope…
see the suffering inflicted upon innocents as deeply wrong
wherever it takes place, which is what I think AT's piece does to some
degree. I think we should encourage more pieces like his that express a
moral outrage over the crimes of nations,…

> about it because they don't happen to be from the country where the crimes
> are taking place or some equally lame excuse.

It is a lame excuse for someone to deny that their nation has not comitted
crimes. That AT want to deny his own country's crimes reflects on him, not
me. I have worked with too many Romani refugees from all of the Balkans who
advise me that AT is willfully blind. And what is your beef that I should
point this out? Actually, it is you that is telling me to shut up. In
response – fuck off.

—– Original Message —–
From: "joseph (yes)" <[email protected]>
To: "Wally Keeler" <[email protected]>
Cc: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>; "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+"
<[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 11:49 PM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Remember Crimes


> If you have a big gaping wound spouting blood from an artery, or a bullet
near
> that brain that with one move of the body will cause a fatal
injury…which do
> you fix first? Which is more important?

You all want to touch.
I think your hands are cold
but they are not.
Which is important:
what I think
or your warm arguments?

—– Original Message —–
From: "joseph (yes)" <[email protected]>
> If you have a big gaping wound spouting blood from an artery, or a bullet
near
> that brain that with one move of the body will cause a fatal
injury…which do
> you fix first? Which is more important?

If you have a big gaping wound spouting blood from an artery in one person
and lethal threats being made against another person, which do you intervene
to save first? Which is more crucial to fix?

> Everytime a bleeding heart brings up some anti-war rhetoric, wally trots
out
> the "why ain't you crying for Chechnya" argument.
>
> Its a bore on both sides.

So take a nap.

> Make something.

I requested that Andrej do just that.

> There was absolutely no request to "shut up" as you put it.

Ah, such a selective memory we have, don

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, joseph (yes) wrote:

> I wrote what I meant. You are unable to understand.

No babycheeks. You are not capable of writing what you mean.
You're simply juggling verbal concepts inside your brain,
and attempting to dictate reality in such manner.

It doesn't work that way, delusional dictatorial ape,
and the story you keep telling yourself doesn't contain
anything to be 'understood'.

We are perfectly capable of "understanding" what you are:
a said, empty idiotic egotistical cuckoo.

No amount of defensiveness is going to change what you are
babycheeks, nor any amounts of self-hypnotizing, delusional
fantasizing about yourself. Ah, should have said "creative
mythologizing".

I wrote what I meant. You are unable to understand.

joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
frank + lyn - mc + El + roy

go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
call me 646 279 2309

SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE - send email to
[email protected]





Quoting "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+" <[email protected]>:

> On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, joseph (yes) wrote:
>
> > Living in a delusion, you are incapable of discerning delusions.
>
> You meant to type, "Living in delusions, I am incapable of
> descerning illusions," babycheeks.
>
> You're not capable of speaking of anyone besides yourself,
> idiotic cuckoo. Nor are you capable of doing anything
> but peddling your ego.
>
> It doesn't matter how many words you juggle about,
> you will still remain a catatonic egotistical idiot.

Quoting Wally Keeler <[email protected]>:

> Indeed, one does call the police when a power invades to house next door and
> kills hundreds of thousands, gases to death minorities within their own
> home, then invades the house on the other side, and continues to make
> lethal threats against another minority.

It is possible for police and doctors and all sorts of emergency workers to
perform their duties at the same time.

joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
frank + lyn - mc + El + roy

go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
call me 646 279 2309

SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE - send email to
[email protected]

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, joseph (yes) wrote:

> I didn't ask for a thing.

You did babycheeks, you did.

Your denial is meaningless drivel, as are your words,
and psychotic + repeated self-induced comatose states.

I am not interested in the stupid mindfuck game that you play with
yourself inside your brain, nor will I play along.

> Nor did I ask to discuss prescriptions.

Nevertheless I stated_ that you are not qualified.
I don't care what you asked for, love.
My actions are not determined by you in the least.

> You are defensive.

No babycheeks. I am not defensive in the least.
Keep your myopic projections to yourself.
Prance about all that you may wish, but I will
not become any more defensive.

And just out of curiosity, when will you attempt
to pass this idiocy which would only work on
helpless humans as 'tough' and 'intelligent'
and worthwhile?

All your meaningless 'dancing' including
your 'performance' and your 'corporate work'
are idiocies designed to damage helpless
humans and you_ are not even running your own
program. But you persist with the attempts
at damafe, blindly, mechanically, and utterly
impotently.

What a service!

Quoting "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+" <[email protected]>:

>
> Nevertheless I stated_ that you are not qualified.
> I don't care what you asked for, love.
> My actions are not determined by you in the least.
>

Yes, I see, you are attempting to force your actions upon me. Violence.

joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
frank + lyn - mc + El + roy

go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
call me 646 279 2309

SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE - send email to
[email protected]

> If you have a big gaping wound spouting blood from an artery in one person
> and lethal threats being made against another person, which do you intervene
> to save first? Which is more crucial to fix?

You don't stop the person calling the police because you want a doctor first.

joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
frank + lyn - mc + El + roy

go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
call me 646 279 2309

SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE - send email to
[email protected]





Quoting Wally Keeler <[email protected]>:

> —– Original Message —–
> From: "joseph (yes)" <[email protected]>
> > If you have a big gaping wound spouting blood from an artery, or a bullet
> near
> > that brain that with one move of the body will cause a fatal
> injury…which do
> > you fix first? Which is more important?
>
> If you have a big gaping wound spouting blood from an artery in one person
> and lethal threats being made against another person, which do you intervene
> to save first? Which is more crucial to fix?
>
> > Everytime a bleeding heart brings up some anti-war rhetoric, wally trots
> out
> > the "why ain't you crying for Chechnya" argument.
> >
> > Its a bore on both sides.
>
> So take a nap.
>
> > Make something.
>
> I requested that Andrej do just that.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, joseph (yes) wrote:


> Yes, I see, you are attempting to force your actions upon me. Violence.

No dearest. We are not attempting any of the delusions inside your
brain. Let us restate: what we do has nothing_ to do with you at all.
One way or the other.

But you keep sticking your hand in.

And that's your own fault.

Thank you very much for understanding. But did you notice that this message
of support of my work was not published on the list? American list!
Andrej

—– Original Message —–
From: "MWP" <[email protected]>
To: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Remember Crimes


> on 12/9/02 2:29 PM, Andrej Tisma at [email protected] wrote:
>
> > LOOK AND REMEMBER THE LOST OF INNOCENT CIVILIAN LIVES
> >
> > http://www.webheaven.co.yu/usa/remember.htm
> >
> >
>
> Methinks WK doth protest too much!
>
> Andrej T: As a native born citizen of these United States, I emphatically
> say that you are perfectly within your right to criticize the U.S. for the
> many horrific crimes of its past, and should not let a petty bully like
this
> WK person bludgeon you into thinking otherwise. The last time I looked,
> one's conscience does not have a nationalistic stamp affixed to it.
Besides,
> the United States pisses on people in other countries all the time and
> thinks nothing of it, a fact that WK is ignoring his own blind self.
> Suggesting that one "clean up one's own backyard" is a ridiculous metaphor
> to apply to world affairs, as not a single nation's backyard on earth can
> ever be wiped clean unless people blind themselves to the facts of
history.
> We in the United States will never be able to whitewash the painful
reality
> of slavery, the de facto genociding of native Americans, etc. It is an
> ineluctable part of America's history to be placed alongside the many
> glories America has achieved and has a right to be proud of, and if a few
of
> the more insecure citizens of our nation don't like others pointing out
our
> warts to us, the best recourse they have is to show how far we ourselves
> have excised such past atrocities from our way of thinking instead of
> engaging in a silly game of tit for tat. This of course assumes that we
have
> actually made such gains in thinking, which is not entirely apparent given
> our current mindless saber-rattling in Iraq and elsewhere, which I think
is
> the point you are making so well in your piece.
>
>
>
> -m
>
>

Quoting "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+" <[email protected]>:

> No dearest. We are not attempting any of the delusions inside your
> brain. Let us restate: what we do has nothing_ to do with you at all.
> One way or the other.

You consistently deny responsibility for your communication. I have no
delusions.

joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
frank + lyn - mc + El + roy

go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
call me 646 279 2309

SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE - send email to
[email protected]

if there is a conspiracy then why didn't they stop it again. maybe you're
just too clever.

david goldschmidt

—– Original Message —–
From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
To: "MWP" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Remember Crimes


> Thank you very much for understanding. But did you notice that this
message
> of support of my work was not published on the list? American list!
> Andrej
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: "MWP" <[email protected]>
> To: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 7:25 AM
> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Remember Crimes
>
>
> > on 12/9/02 2:29 PM, Andrej Tisma at [email protected] wrote:
> >
> > > LOOK AND REMEMBER THE LOST OF INNOCENT CIVILIAN LIVES
> > >
> > > http://www.webheaven.co.yu/usa/remember.htm
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Methinks WK doth protest too much!
> >
> > Andrej T: As a native born citizen of these United States, I
emphatically
> > say that you are perfectly within your right to criticize the U.S. for
the
> > many horrific crimes of its past, and should not let a petty bully like
> this
> > WK person bludgeon you into thinking otherwise. The last time I looked,
> > one's conscience does not have a nationalistic stamp affixed to it.
> Besides,
> > the United States pisses on people in other countries all the time and
> > thinks nothing of it, a fact that WK is ignoring his own blind self.
> > Suggesting that one "clean up one's own backyard" is a ridiculous
metaphor
> > to apply to world affairs, as not a single nation's backyard on earth
can
> > ever be wiped clean unless people blind themselves to the facts of
> history.
> > We in the United States will never be able to whitewash the painful
> reality
> > of slavery, the de facto genociding of native Americans, etc. It is an
> > ineluctable part of America's history to be placed alongside the many
> > glories America has achieved and has a right to be proud of, and if a
few
> of
> > the more insecure citizens of our nation don't like others pointing out
> our
> > warts to us, the best recourse they have is to show how far we ourselves
> > have excised such past atrocities from our way of thinking instead of
> > engaging in a silly game of tit for tat. This of course assumes that we
> have
> > actually made such gains in thinking, which is not entirely apparent
given
> > our current mindless saber-rattling in Iraq and elsewhere, which I think
> is
> > the point you are making so well in your piece.
> >
> >
> >
> > -m
> >
> >
>
>
>
> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Wally Keeler wrote:

> > And not just
> > that, American leaders are planning and controlling crisis all over the
> > world,
>
> Bullshit. That's nothing more than an idiot conspiracy theory put out by
> communist ideology during the Cold War (which may have infected your
> education, given that Jugoslavija was and has b een a dictatorshit for a
> large part of the 20th century) which has now been supplanted by
> Islamic-extremist ideology.

Ne. It's actually worse. The Yugoslavian politicians themselves
view the population as saleable 'piglets' + distribute + design
the propaganda themselves. But ah, they are also muppets.

In most occasions artists are encouraged + trained to be
programmatic propaganda disseminators.

Tak.

Doing the 'dirty' work of energetic wire-suckers.

That of course applies to the West as well.

Front line ein-zwei. How cutting edge are you?

`, . ` `k a r e i' ? ' D42

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Andrej Tisma wrote:

> Thank you very much for understanding. But did you notice that this message
> of support of my work was not published on the list? American list!

Shh. It's a grand American political conspiracy.

Of course, Andrej is not making a simplistic
trash-journalism type drivel 'work' on a
'pseudo-sensitive' topic and attempting to 'ride out'
a controversy caused out by stirring simple
programmatic responses in humans. Not at all.

It's so.. 'poignant' to knee-jerk humans with 'grand causes'.
Totally unlike cheap Yugoslavian politicians.

Hey, Andrej, if you're truly interested in the subject,
why don't you investigate it in full? Why don't you investigate
Yugoslavian politicians selling humans like cattle?

Then you can come and speak to us how it's all America's fault.

:)

Quoting Mailserver <[email protected]>:


>
> STOP SENDING ME THIS CRAP

Stop subscribing to Rhizome, idiot.


joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
frank + lyn - mc + El + roy

go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
call me 646 279 2309

SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE - send email to
[email protected]





Quoting Mailserver <[email protected]>:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> STOP SENDING ME THIS CRAP
>
>
>
>
> —–Original Message—–
> From: "joseph (yes)"<[email protected]>
> To: "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+"<[email protected]>
> Cc: "Andrej Tisma"<[email protected]>, "Wally Keeler"<[email protected]>,
> [email protected]
> Date: Wed Dec 11 11:31:49 PST 2002
> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Remember Crimes
>
> >Quoting "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+" <[email protected]>:
> >
> >> No dearest. We are not attempting any of the delusions inside your
> >> brain. Let us restate: what we do has nothing_ to do with you at all.
> >> One way or the other.
> >
> >You consistently deny responsibility for your communication. I have no
> >delusions.
> >
> >joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
> >frank + lyn - mc + El + roy
> >
> >go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
> >call me 646 279 2309
> >
> >SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE - send email to
> >[email protected]
> >+ ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> >-> post: [email protected]
> >-> questions: [email protected]
> >-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> >+
> >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> >Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
> ___________________________________________________
> GO.com Mail
> Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, joseph (yes) wrote:

> The more you write, the more defensiveness you display.

No, dearest. We are not the wishful projections
inside your brain. The only one defensive here is you.
To a state of stupor even.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Andrej Tisma wrote:

> America, and asked me to make a work about Yugoslavia where I live. So you
> started to talk about countries, not me.

Actually no, I replied to your statements about America
being the most responsible.

> And stop insulting, be fine as a civilized person should be.

Nobody is insulting you.
And try and avoid using standard nonsense about
'civilized persons' will you?
I have been perfectly fine_ and civilized_ with you, dearest.

In fact, maybe not even 'fine' enough considering your
'expression' of 'civilian victims' considering how
exploitative it actually is.

If you want to speak of 'civilization' observe your own actions,
which in this e-mail consist of a meaningless statement,
and attempt at a personal jab.

`, . ` `k a r e i' ? ' D42

From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> > Sorry Andrej, but you failed the courage to be a dissident to your own.
> You
> > failed your own culture preferring to utilize images that did not come
> > largely from your own culture.
>
> When I mock or criticize USA I mock my government too, the USA puppets.

Sure ya do. I don't regard you with credibility in this regard.

> > Your work could have more power and
> > universality if you made your "internationalist" work grounded from your
> own
> > cultural perspective.
>
> Thank you for advices. I regret you don't find my works good enough. But I
> can tell you there are people even in USA who like them very much.

Emir Kusturica has succeeded where you have failed. Kusturica has made a
universal film which arises from the manifestation of his own cultural soil.
I think especially his movie, Underground. Now there is a powerful work of
exceedingly black humour satirizing the obscene ludicrousmess of war, but he
does so in a manner which is more than honest with his own culture. "Once
Upon a Time There Was Country…"

I have no doubt that there are people who like your work. Many many people
in the USA like the Spice Girls also.

From: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> But who was first to mention one's country? I sent in my work "Remember
> Crime" without mentioning any country, just images and expression of grief
> and anger over civilian victims.

Oh Andrej, you did specify a country in every way except by explicit word.
The medium image was New York City and using the WTC as the screen for
other images:
1. image of Native American
2. image of dead African-American
3. image of US Warplane dropping bombs
4. image of Vietnamese girl napalmed by US forces
5. weeping woman and dead child
6. deformed child

So five out of seven images are explicitly USAmerican. YOU mentioned the
country.

> Someone recognized there some country,
> America, and asked me to make a work about Yugoslavia where I live.

Which you refuse to do for some reason or other.

> So you
> started to talk about countries, not me.

Sorry Andrej, but you failed the courage to be a dissident to your own. You
failed your own culture preferring to utilize images that did not come
largely from your own culture. Your work could have more power and
universality if you made your "internationalist" work grounded from your own
cultural perspective.

> And stop insulting, be fine as a civilized person should be.

> —– Original Message —–
> From: "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+" <[email protected]>
> To: "Andrej Tisma" <[email protected]>
> Cc: "MWP" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 5:27 AM
> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Remember Crimes
>
>
> >
> > > I hope this will be published despite the conspiracy, or simply
> censorship
> > > ;)
> >
> > Uh, right. What censorship? What publishing?
> > Nobody is censoring you. You are simply trying to stir-up attention.
> > Not swallowing your crap is not censorship.
> >
> > > Well, why would I write about my country? I can write about what I
want.
> >
> > Because babycheeks, sincere research into the matter would reveal
> > that it's not all America's fault, and that your piece is cheaply
> > exploitative and full of false propaganda.
> >
> > Nor can you 'write whatever you want'. But that's another story.
> >
> > > This is an international network and list, and we can discuss
anything.
> >
> > Including that what you present is false, and what it really is aimed
at
> > doing. And the latter is not a conspiracy and censorship.
> >
> > > You will not give me tasks what to write and what to do.
> >
> > We haven't even attempted to give you tasks, babycheeks.
> > Merely suggested uncomprtable areas you're 'conveniently'
> > leaving out, some of them which lead to sources closer to home.
> >
> > We have also pointed out that what you're writing
> > is shallow nationalistic propaganda.
> >
> > > Or maybe you are used to it in your free country?
> >
> > We don't know Andrej, what do you think?
> > We are not 'our country'. We do not suffer from
> > your cheap, idiotic, and simplistic nationalistic
> > identification.
> >
> > Don't you find it a bit odd, that you're trying to raise
> > a false alarm, replying with a bunch of meaningless drivel
> > ignoring reality, and finally attempting to again_
> > incite 'my country vs. your country' idiocy?
> >
> > There is no 'country competition'.
> > You're simply by driven by idiotic nationalism,
> > which exacerbates rather than elevates any 'human problems'.
> >
> > And you are being treateed as an individual unit who does that.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

> Sorry Andrej, but you failed the courage to be a dissident to your own.
You
> failed your own culture preferring to utilize images that did not come
> largely from your own culture.

When I mock or criticize USA I mock my government too, the USA puppets.

> Your work could have more power and
> universality if you made your "internationalist" work grounded from your
own
> cultural perspective.

Thank you for advices. I regret you don't find my works good enough. But I
can tell you there are people even in USA who like them very much.

Andrej

With grief and anger we remember the criminal acts that have cost thousands
of innocent civilian lives.

http://www.webheaven.co.yu/usa/remember.htm

________________
Andrej Tisma - artist, art critic and curator
WEBSITE: http://tisma.net/