Re: The Artist speaking of his Brushes etc and other stuff

So, if I go out in the mornings and collect rosebuds and dandelions and
scan them in to use for colors in Flash, can I still be 6RC?

Seriously, what the Flash debate comes down to (and I think I said this
before, about 3 or 4 years ago) is the fact that there is no such thing
as an "easy" medium. There are alot of people out there doing Flash
stuff because Flash is so "easy" to use. But unless they spend time to
"really" learn the medium, what they do is never going to be great. Also
we have alot of people who are good coders and bad artists and good
artists but bad coders. Unless they can become both, what they do is
most likely going to be rather insignificant. But again, Flash is a good
medium that has a lot to offer and I think shunning it is antiproductive
to the net art community.

Pall

Hinn 10.08.2002 kl. 23:54 ritadhi Jess Loseby:

> hello,
> just thought i'd stop by and have my usual moan…
> stop me if if you've heard it before..er, like the last 20 time we
> debated
> the rules..:-)
> i tend to think the rules as a loose general guide-line or an ideal can=

> be
> good thing for some (although i also kind of think one point of being an
> artist is to break any possible rule that's going but that's by the
> by..) I
> also think that if you can follow them and produce the kind of work that
> eryk is at the moment then its got to be a good thing for some artists
> BUT
>
> why do we always have to slid so quickly into "flash is corporate,
> crappy, obvious crap" discussion..
> firstly, if you have a programming background, lovely! - enjoy the
> coding
> guys, there's little doubt about the freedom it gives you. But flash
> makes
> the net accessible to the many artists who haven't got the
> time/money/inclination to spend god knows how long learning another
> language when they they have a pretty user-friendly one that means
> they can play with artistic ideas rather than programming ones straight
> away.
>
> Secondly, when I was creating textiles long ago, there used to be these
> boring unending debates about useing 'natural dyes' against ready
> mixed ones. The argument being that ready mixed dyes were for plebs
> who could be arsed to go out there and LEARN the craft, who weren't
> REAL artists because they didn't know the DEEP personal satisfaction
> that came from gathering rosehips at dawn and boiling them down for
> 80 hours to produce the EXACT shade of pink for their ART. Same
> goes with this debate. Flash is seen as the cheep, commercial, cop-out
> for the lazy guys. YAWN. it's just a kind of pride. Coding takes longer,
> takes longer to learn, is clever… so it HAS to be better,yes?
>
> well, perhaps if it wasn't about art maybe. But whether an artwork
> 'works' as a piece has little to do with the time the artist has taken
> to
> learn, where they learned, or how they did it. You can spend 6 months
> coding a piece and it can still be crap. You can 6 months of a flash
> piece and it can be crap. You can manipulate an image in 20 minutes
> and it can be bloody brilliant. Because artworks have much more about
> them than the tools…it 'works' as a piece of art because of one or
> more
> of a mix of aesthetics, form, content, style, colour (or lack of),
> tone ("),
> agenda, politics, play, text, texture, sound, emotion, reaction(s),
> observation, rebellion etc etc etc (delete or add to taste)
>
> perhaps its the old art and craft divide again. Craft has always be
> about
> the 'skill' of the craftsman, art (arguably) about the 'object'. A
> craftsman
> wouldn't use flash and artist might…? Perhaps it is the same way a
> craftsman would only use the best wood to make a beautiful table
> whereas an artist would make the table out of teabags, matchsticks,
> lego blocks..just about anything if it said and did what the artist
> wanted
> it to.
>
> Macromedia Is shite. I use it all the time and I hate them. I put up
> with it
> with it because it frees me from my fear of code (alien language) and
> lets me explore. I'm working with video at the moment. I just couldn't
> have done with it what I'm doing in flash without another 3 years,
> rather
> more money and a new brain (mine melts at anything above basic
> scripting)
> 'nuff said. I've bored even myself.
> jess. o
> /^ rssgallery.com
> ][
>
>
>
> + vs. every art school ever…
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php3
>
>
_____________________________________
Pall Thayer
myndlistamadhur/kennari
artist/teacher
Fjolbrautaskolanum vidh Armula (www.fa.is)
http://www.this.is/pallit
_____________________________________

you forgot: "bad artists, bad coders"

—– Original Message —–
From: Pall Thayer
To: Jess Loseby
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: The Artist speaking of his Brushes etc and othe=
r stuff


So, if I go out in the mornings and collect rosebuds and dandelions and s=
can them in to use for colors in Flash, can I still be 6RC?

Seriously, what the Flash debate comes down to (and I think I said this b=
efore, about 3 or 4 years ago) is the fact that there is no such thing as a=
n "easy" medium. There are alot of people out there doing Flash stuff becau=
se Flash is so "easy" to use. But unless they spend time to "really" learn =
the medium, what they do is never going to be great. Also we have alot of p=
eople who are good coders and bad artists and good artists but bad coders. =
Unless they can become both, what they do is most likely going to be rather=
insignificant. But again, Flash is a good medium that has a lot to offer a=
nd I think shunning it is antiproductive to the net art community.

Pall

Hinn 10.08.2002 kl. 23:54 ritadhi Jess Loseby:


hello,
just thought i'd stop by and have my usual moan…
stop me if if you've heard it before..er, like the last 20 time we deba=
ted
the rules..:-)
i tend to think the rules as a loose general guide-line or an ideal can=
be
good thing for some (although i also kind of think one point of being a=
n
artist is to break any possible rule that's going but that's by the by.=
.) I
also think that if you can follow them and produce the kind of work tha=
t
eryk is at the moment then its got to be a good thing for some artists
BUT

why do we always have to slid so quickly into "flash is corporate,
crappy, obvious crap" discussion..
firstly, if you have a programming background, lovely! - enjoy the codi=
ng
guys, there's little doubt about the freedom it gives you. But flash ma=
kes
the net accessible to the many artists who haven't got the
time/money/inclination to spend god knows how long learning another
language when they they have a pretty user-friendly one that means
they can play with artistic ideas rather than programming ones straight=

away.

Secondly, when I was creating textiles long ago, there used to be these=

boring unending debates about useing 'natural dyes' against ready
mixed ones. The argument being that ready mixed dyes were for plebs
who could be arsed to go out there and LEARN the craft, who weren't
REAL artists because they didn't know the DEEP personal satisfaction
that came from gathering rosehips at dawn and boiling them down for
80 hours to produce the EXACT shade of pink for their ART. Same
goes with this debate. Flash is seen as the cheep, commercial, cop-out=

for the lazy guys. YAWN. it's just a kind of pride. Coding takes longer=
,
takes longer to learn, is clever… so it HAS to be better,yes?

well, perhaps if it wasn't about art maybe. But whether an artwork
'works' as a piece has little to do with the time the artist has taken =
to
learn, where they learned, or how they did it. You can spend 6 months=

coding a piece and it can still be crap. You can 6 months of a flash
piece and it can be crap. You can manipulate an image in 20 minutes
and it can be bloody brilliant. Because artworks have much more about=

them than the tools…it 'works' as a piece of art because of one or mo=
re
of a mix of aesthetics, form, content, style, colour (or lack of), tone=
("),
agenda, politics, play, text, texture, sound, emotion, reaction(s),
observation, rebellion etc etc etc (delete or add to taste)

perhaps its the old art and craft divide again. Craft has always be abo=
ut
the 'skill' of the craftsman, art (arguably) about the 'object'. A craf=
tsman
wouldn't use flash and artist might…? Perhaps it is the same way a
craftsman would only use the best wood to make a beautiful table
whereas an artist would make the table out of teabags, matchsticks,
lego blocks..just about anything if it said and did what the artist wan=
ted
it to.

Macromedia Is shite. I use it all the time and I hate them. I put up wi=
th it
with it because it frees me from my fear of code (alien language) and=

lets me explore. I'm working with video at the moment. I just couldn't=

have done with it what I'm doing in flash without another 3 years, rath=
er
more money and a new brain (mine melts at anything above basic
scripting)
'nuff said. I've bored even myself.
jess. o
/^ rssgallery.com
][



+ vs. every art school ever…
-> post: [email protected]
-> questions: [email protected]
-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
+
Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php3



_____________________________________
Pall Thayer
myndlistamadhur/kennari
artist/teacher
Fjolbrautaskolanum vidh Armula (www.fa.is)
http://www.this.is/pallit
_____________________________________

There are no rules, anything goes.


on 8/10/02 7:54 PM, Jess Loseby at [email protected] wrote:

> hello,
> just thought i'd stop by and have my usual moan…
> stop me if if you've heard it before..er, like the last 20 time we debated
> the rules..:-)
> i tend to think the rules as a loose general guide-line or an ideal can be
> good thing for some (although i also kind of think one point of being an
> artist is to break any possible rule that's going but that's by the by..) I
> also think that if you can follow them and produce the kind of work that
> eryk is at the moment then its got to be a good thing for some artists
> BUT
>
> why do we always have to slid so quickly into "flash is corporate,
> crappy, obvious crap" discussion..
> firstly, if you have a programming background, lovely! - enjoy the coding
> guys, there's little doubt about the freedom it gives you. But flash makes
> the net accessible to the many artists who haven't got the
> time/money/inclination to spend god knows how long learning another
> language when they they have a pretty user-friendly one that means
> they can play with artistic ideas rather than programming ones straight
> away.
>
> Secondly, when I was creating textiles long ago, there used to be these
> boring unending debates about useing 'natural dyes' against ready
> mixed ones. The argument being that ready mixed dyes were for plebs
> who could be arsed to go out there and LEARN the craft, who weren't
> REAL artists because they didn't know the DEEP personal satisfaction
> that came from gathering rosehips at dawn and boiling them down for
> 80 hours to produce the EXACT shade of pink for their ART. Same
> goes with this debate. Flash is seen as the cheep, commercial, cop-out
> for the lazy guys. YAWN. it's just a kind of pride. Coding takes longer,
> takes longer to learn, is clever… so it HAS to be better,yes?
>
> well, perhaps if it wasn't about art maybe. But whether an artwork
> 'works' as a piece has little to do with the time the artist has taken to
> learn, where they learned, or how they did it. You can spend 6 months
> coding a piece and it can still be crap. You can 6 months of a flash
> piece and it can be crap. You can manipulate an image in 20 minutes
> and it can be bloody brilliant. Because artworks have much more about
> them than the tools…it 'works' as a piece of art because of one or more
> of a mix of aesthetics, form, content, style, colour (or lack of), tone ("),
> agenda, politics, play, text, texture, sound, emotion, reaction(s),
> observation, rebellion etc etc etc (delete or add to taste)
>
> perhaps its the old art and craft divide again. Craft has always be about
> the 'skill' of the craftsman, art (arguably) about the 'object'. A craftsman
> wouldn't use flash and artist might…? Perhaps it is the same way a
> craftsman would only use the best wood to make a beautiful table
> whereas an artist would make the table out of teabags, matchsticks,
> lego blocks..just about anything if it said and did what the artist wanted
> it to.
>
> Macromedia Is shite. I use it all the time and I hate them. I put up with it
> with it because it frees me from my fear of code (alien language) and
> lets me explore. I'm working with video at the moment. I just couldn't
> have done with it what I'm doing in flash without another 3 years, rather
> more money and a new brain (mine melts at anything above basic
> scripting)
> 'nuff said. I've bored even myself.
> jess. o
> /^ rssgallery.com
> ][
>
>
>
> + vs. every art school ever…
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php3

> you forgot: "bad artists, bad coders"
maybe….:-)

>Secondly, when I was creating textiles long ago, there used to be these
>boring unending debates about useing 'natural dyes' against ready
>mixed ones. The argument being that ready mixed dyes were for plebs
>who could be arsed to go out there and LEARN the craft, who weren't
>REAL artists because they didn't know the DEEP personal satisfaction
>that came from gathering rosehips at dawn and boiling them down for
>80 hours to produce the EXACT shade of pink for their ART. Same
>goes with this debate. Flash is seen as the cheep, commercial, cop-out
>for the lazy guys. YAWN. it's just a kind of pride. Coding takes longer,
>takes longer to learn, is clever… so it HAS to be better,yes?

yup. ok, i'm kidding. but seems like arguing the end product versus
the process. If somebody wants to bypass the process, theoretically
that would be no big deal, but IF they have SOME sort of process to
replace it. Tedium IS (a negative word for) what makes the
creativity happen.

(flash really IS the "cheep, commercial, cop-out, for the lazy guys".
but why is any of that a BAD thing? good-versus-bad judgement is the
BAD thing.)


>You can spend 6 months
>coding a piece and it can still be crap. You can 6 months of a flash
>piece and it can be crap. You can manipulate an image in 20 minutes
>and it can be bloody brilliant.

sure but the opposite is no less true. (20 min brilliant coding, 6
months of crappy image manipulation, we've all seen both) i just
code a lot faster than i use a pointer/mouse to drag a select. (And
I am a "hunt a peck typist, two index fingers) For what i like to
do, the 2 big Macromedia products that give you the choice, actually
run coded animation A LOT faster than frame by frame animation. So
if I want Hortense the Hippo to run smooth and fast, I better learn
to code it.


>[i'll need] a new brain (mine melts at anything above basic
>scripting)

it's like when people say they just CAN'T draw. Well, how many hours
have you spent at it? Probably, the person lost interest before
gaining any ground. Anybody CAN learn any skill at all, there are no
tasks BEYOND or specific to anybody. It's really just a matter of
if you want to put the time in, whatever it takes, until you get
something. Well, maybe other subjects are more familiar territory or
have better associations. Coding often triggers thoughts of math and
a lot of people just shut off at the idea of math. I never was any
good at textiles but bet you put more hours in than me.

Judson


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PLASMA STUDII
http://plasmastudii.org
223 E 10th Street
PMB 130
New York, NY 10003

Pall Thayer wrote:

> …we have alot of people who are good coders and bad artists and good artists but bad coders….

what i want to see is bad coders and bad artists combined :)

>

Neil Jenkins <[email protected]>

Keywords:

Pall Thayer wrote:

> …we have alot of people who are good coders and bad artists and good artists but bad coders….

what i want to see is bad coders and bad artists combined :)



/////i think thats me!!!/////
bliss
l

>
> Neil Jenkins <[email protected]>
>
> Keywords:
>
> Pall Thayer wrote:
>
> > …we have alot of people who are good coders and bad artists and good
artists but bad coders….
>
> what i want to see is bad coders and bad artists combined :)

That's nothing, I once met a bad coder WHO WASN'T EVEN TRYING TO BE AN
ARTIST

Ivan

Hinn 13.08.2002 kl. 14:55 ritadhi Ivan Pope:

>
>>
>> Neil Jenkins <[email protected]>
>>
>> Keywords:
>>
>> Pall Thayer wrote:
>>
>>> …we have alot of people who are good coders and bad artists and good
> artists but bad coders….
>>
>> what i want to see is bad coders and bad artists combined :)
>
> That's nothing, I once met a bad coder WHO WASN'T EVEN TRYING TO BE AN
> ARTIST

I've met lots of really bad artists who don't even know what a coder is.

Pall
>
> Ivan
>
> + distance equals rate times time
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
_____________________________________
Pall Thayer
myndlistamadhur/kennari
artist/teacher
Fjolbrautaskolanum vidh Armula (www.fa.is)
http://www.this.is/pallit
_____________________________________