Hello Lew,
I understand completely that my reactions to that day will be different
from those in New York City, compared to those outside of it. For me, it
was not a loud bang, it was not anyone I might have known, aside from
you- literally- but I think we had heard from you by the time I was
awake. The sad truth is, I don't remember anything from that day aside
from sleeping on the floor of a house we were moving out of that day,
and my dog coming in and licking my face, and my mother in the doorwar
saying that "The country is under siege," and thinking of this girl who
I love more than anything and feeling like I had to get her and get
somewhere safe. By the time I turned the news on the event had taken
place four hours previously.
I stared in awe. I remember getting online to check on people I knew in
New York, and talking to a friend over AIM who only has a computer, no
television, no radio, and telling them what had happened, and she signed
off to go somewhere that had a TV.
I had NPR and CNN and the Internet all at the same time, I had live
reports coming in through email. I think I left the house but I can't
remember what I might have done.
But the entire event played out on television. Everyone I communicated
with was mediated by the internet or by the telephones. And the next
day, I went to work, and there were 126 television sets and they all
eventually turned from the horrible circuit city in-store video loop to
the news footage. That day I think there was an arrest at the Boston
Copley Square Hotel- and I don't know who they arrested. But then I saw
my friends neighborhood on television.
And the loops kept coming. And it was not a real experience as much as I
had felt horror and as much as I felt like I needed to change my life,
the actual event was somewhere else, somewhere I had been to for a total
of 84 hours, maybe, in my lifetime. I had never seen the World Trade
Center in person. But at the same time I couldn't sleep with the lights
out anymore and I fell asleep and woke up to NPR because I needed to
hear people talking for comfort.
And I mean I was in a state of hysteria. I don't want to make it sound
like I wasn't affected by it just because I could not connect the images
to reality. I was on this sort of hyperawareness kick that I think would
make some people want to get locked up. A kid with downs syndrome came
into the store one day with a small american flag and my reaction was
that I wanted to break something. I pulled over my car on the road on
the verge of tears because I had seen "God Bless America" painted on
someones windshield, and meanwhile I wanted to drive my car into some of
these people who were singing "Proud to be an American/ Where at least I
know I'm Free" on a megaphone outside the liquor store that was across
the street from where I was. I mean I don't want to be sensational or
whatever, but this is honestly what happened to me, is I felt like I was
going crazy, like all the rules that dictated how life was supposed to
be lived had changed, and I mean, they had. It's back to normal now-
it's back to the television sets for everyone, I guess- but. I don't know.
And I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't want to say I know what it was
like to be in NYC for it, because that is precisely what I am not
saying. I think there was a way that we outside of New York City
experienced that event. And I can understand not wanting to watch my
piece as a result of that. The first time I tried to construct it I got
nausea, literal nausea. Because it felt so reductive. And only when I
got through that, when I felt like it was making sense to do it, could I
just look at it and feel okay about it. I am still in between on it, but
I think it made me ask questions when I made it, it brought me closer to
having the event be real to me, instead of a televised event of horrific
proportions that made me just stop everything and evaluate what I was
doing with myself. But thats why I decided to show it. I never expected
this sort of response, I mean when I posted it I really actually asked
if this was too big for what I was doing, and no one really answered me,
and now all of a sudden it is bigger, and so it's out of my hands, and
is a little more comprehensible to me, that this piece I guess is
something that resonates in a multitude of ways. And I think, for this
hour of the night anyway, that that is okay.
And I think that is all I am going to say about this piece, now.
Cheers,
-e.
re: that day
-
Type: discussion
Comments
>
Hello Lew,
I understand completely that my reactions to that day will be different from those in New York City, compared to those outside of it. For me, it was not a loud bang, it was not anyone I might have known, aside from you- literally- but I think we had heard from you by the time I was awake. The sad truth is, I don't remember anything from that day aside from sleeping on the floor of a house we were moving out of that day, and my dog coming in and licking my face, and my mother in the doorwar saying that "The country is under siege," and thinking of this girl who I love more than anything and feeling like I had to get her and get somewhere safe. By the time I turned the news on the event had taken place four hours previously.
I stared in awe. I remember getting online to check on people I knew in New York, and talking to a friend over AIM who only has a computer, no television, no radio, and telling them what had happened, and she signed off to go somewhere that had a TV.
I had NPR and CNN and the Internet all at the same time, I had live reports coming in through email. I think I left the house but I can't remember what I might have done.
But the entire event played out on television. Everyone I communicated with was mediated by the internet or by the telephones. And the next day, I went to work, and there were 126 television sets and they all eventually turned from the horrible circuit city in-store video loop to the news footage. That day I think there was an arrest at the Boston Copley Square Hotel- and I don't know who they arrested. But then I saw my friends neighborhood on television.
And the loops kept coming. And it was not a real experience as much as I had felt horror and as much as I felt like I needed to change my life, the actual event was somewhere else, somewhere I had been to for a total of 84 hours, maybe, in my lifetime. I had never seen the World Trade Center in person. But at the same time I couldn't sleep with the lights out anymore and I fell asleep and woke up to NPR because I needed to hear people talking for comfort.
And I mean I was in a state of hysteria. I don't want to make it sound like I wasn't affected by it just because I could not connect the images to reality. I was on this sort of hyperawareness kick that I think would make some people want to get locked up. A kid with downs syndrome came into the store one day with a small american flag and my reaction was that I wanted to break something. I pulled over my car on the road on the verge of tears because I had seen "God Bless America" painted on someones windshield, and meanwhile I wanted to drive my car into some of these people who were singing "Proud to be an American/ Where at least I know I'm Free" on a megaphone outside the liquor store that was across the street from where I was. I mean I don't want to be sensational or whatever, but this is honestly what happened to me, is I felt like I was going crazy, like all the rules that dictated how life was supposed to be lived had changed, and I mean, they had. It's back to normal now- it's back to the television sets for everyone, I guess- but. I don't know.
And I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't want to say I know what it was like to be in NYC for it, because that is precisely what I am not saying. I think there was a way that we outside of New York City experienced that event. And I can understand not wanting to watch my piece as a result of that. The first time I tried to construct it I got nausea, literal nausea. Because it felt so reductive. And only when I got through that, when I felt like it was making sense to do it, could I just look at it and feel okay about it. I am still in between on it, but I think it made me ask questions when I made it, it brought me closer to having the event be real to me, instead of a televised event of horrific proportions that made me just stop everything and evaluate what I was doing with myself. But thats why I decided to show it. I never expected this sort of response, I mean when I posted it I really actually asked if this was too big for what I was doing, and no one really answered me, and now all of a sudden it is bigger, and so it's out of my hands, and is a little more comprehensible to me, that this piece I guess is something that resonates in a multitude of ways. And I think, for this hour of the night anyway, that that is okay.
And I think that is all I am going to say about this piece, now.
Cheers,
-e.
more on the distance/mediation thing:
To be fair, I think it was *easier* in some ways for those of us who
actually experienced it to deal with it. it was unreal enough as it was –
my friends who happened to be out of town at the time needed to get back
in, to see to feel to hear what was going on without the mediation. those
of us who were right downtown watching had more to deal with sooner, more
horror if you will, but we had the gift of our own senses, our
insufficient physical and psychological "mediation" or self-protective
devices. we didn't have to make that leap from mediated horror to register
the reality – it sounds crazy, but i've felt grateful that I had my own
experience of it without CNN et al. I can hang onto that to compare things
to. and though memory has its own distortions and is in itself a form of
mediation, at least it's mine to a degree and not a product of the
networks. it actually makes a difference.
I think there are people who have more capacity for empathy than others,
and many of them–happily–are artists and employ that capacity in their
work. it seemed to me that Eryk's piece and the way he couched it
displayed that particular capacity. whatever flaws it might have, the
piece has a quiet reverence and dignity. It doesn't pretend to own
anything.
JG
On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Eryk Salvaggio wrote:
> Hello Lew,
>
> I understand completely that my reactions to that day will be different
> from those in New York City, compared to those outside of it. For me, it
> was not a loud bang, it was not anyone I might have known, aside from
> you- literally- but I think we had heard from you by the time I was
> awake. The sad truth is, I don't remember anything from that day aside
> from sleeping on the floor of a house we were moving out of that day,
> and my dog coming in and licking my face, and my mother in the doorwar
> saying that "The country is under siege," and thinking of this girl who
> I love more than anything and feeling like I had to get her and get
> somewhere safe. By the time I turned the news on the event had taken
> place four hours previously.
>
> I stared in awe. I remember getting online to check on people I knew in
> New York, and talking to a friend over AIM who only has a computer, no
> television, no radio, and telling them what had happened, and she signed
> off to go somewhere that had a TV.
>
> I had NPR and CNN and the Internet all at the same time, I had live
> reports coming in through email. I think I left the house but I can't
> remember what I might have done.
>
> But the entire event played out on television. Everyone I communicated
> with was mediated by the internet or by the telephones. And the next
> day, I went to work, and there were 126 television sets and they all
> eventually turned from the horrible circuit city in-store video loop to
> the news footage. That day I think there was an arrest at the Boston
> Copley Square Hotel- and I don't know who they arrested. But then I saw
> my friends neighborhood on television.
>
> And the loops kept coming. And it was not a real experience as much as I
> had felt horror and as much as I felt like I needed to change my life,
> the actual event was somewhere else, somewhere I had been to for a total
> of 84 hours, maybe, in my lifetime. I had never seen the World Trade
> Center in person. But at the same time I couldn't sleep with the lights
> out anymore and I fell asleep and woke up to NPR because I needed to
> hear people talking for comfort.
>
> And I mean I was in a state of hysteria. I don't want to make it sound
> like I wasn't affected by it just because I could not connect the images
> to reality. I was on this sort of hyperawareness kick that I think would
> make some people want to get locked up. A kid with downs syndrome came
> into the store one day with a small american flag and my reaction was
> that I wanted to break something. I pulled over my car on the road on
> the verge of tears because I had seen "God Bless America" painted on
> someones windshield, and meanwhile I wanted to drive my car into some of
> these people who were singing "Proud to be an American/ Where at least I
> know I'm Free" on a megaphone outside the liquor store that was across
> the street from where I was. I mean I don't want to be sensational or
> whatever, but this is honestly what happened to me, is I felt like I was
> going crazy, like all the rules that dictated how life was supposed to
> be lived had changed, and I mean, they had. It's back to normal now-
> it's back to the television sets for everyone, I guess- but. I don't know.
>
> And I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't want to say I know what it was
> like to be in NYC for it, because that is precisely what I am not
> saying. I think there was a way that we outside of New York City
> experienced that event. And I can understand not wanting to watch my
> piece as a result of that. The first time I tried to construct it I got
> nausea, literal nausea. Because it felt so reductive. And only when I
> got through that, when I felt like it was making sense to do it, could I
> just look at it and feel okay about it. I am still in between on it, but
> I think it made me ask questions when I made it, it brought me closer to
> having the event be real to me, instead of a televised event of horrific
> proportions that made me just stop everything and evaluate what I was
> doing with myself. But thats why I decided to show it. I never expected
> this sort of response, I mean when I posted it I really actually asked
> if this was too big for what I was doing, and no one really answered me,
> and now all of a sudden it is bigger, and so it's out of my hands, and
> is a little more comprehensible to me, that this piece I guess is
> something that resonates in a multitude of ways. And I think, for this
> hour of the night anyway, that that is okay.
>
> And I think that is all I am going to say about this piece, now.
>
> Cheers,
> -e.
>
>
>
>
> + your mama don't dance and your daddy don't rock & roll
> -> Rhizome.org
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php3
>
hey joy,
seems like ivan was saying something else. didn't read like he
actually thought YOU had glossed over the real horrors of being
bombed. rather that in the US (esp in such a big US city), the
average person still has the "luxury" of intellectually separating
the traumatic from an appreciation for the experience itself. What
PERCENTAGE of the population here was tangibly more effected than
folks in paris?
If Kabul gets bombed, a larger majority of the people there wouldn't
care how much "realer" their experience was than the news coverage.
To many in the world, this distinction is a triviality, though maybe
you find it fascinating. (esp. if we aren't completely absorbed in
the task of plain surviving the aftermath)
Obviously, the Picasso/Guernica thing is just an illustration that
this first-hand witnessing is hardly a necessity. there is no
benefit to it besides very PERSONAL interest. But for most of us
NYers, we may have seen something meaningless out of a window or from
a roof-top but don't be fooled. We are ALL getting the story from
"CNN" in some form.
We may be obsessed with excess but we also have that excess to throw
around. some place in norway? donated $$ for a choral recital in
carnegie hall to NY as a response to 9/11. i went as a friend of a
performer. such is our "relief".
Surely everyone has heard about the shi-shi caterers who went to
ground zero for the clean-up to serve 5 star lobster bisque. that
site is a tourist attraction now, complete with gift shopping for
9/11 paraphernalia. cash in on american flag sales while you can.
cool though, I think this was our best response. (even if it does
stink of Nationalism Lite™. ) But this stuff just isn't what
happens in other parts of the world. we live in disneyland. And as
americans (healthy and proud, with straight white teeth), we are
really just slave labor for the Magic Kingdom.
judson
>You distort my meaning in order to state a truism. Obviously "greatful"
>was not applied to the experience of being bombed; it should be a given,
>especially in this tech savvy community that we in the 1st world foster
>and live through a super-mediated culture in which "reality" and fantasy
>are frequently blurred. that is the reference point for my remarks, it
>should be pretty obvious.
>
>nuff said.
>
>JG
>
>
>On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Ivan Pope wrote:
>
> >
> > > more on the distance/mediation thing:
> > >
> > > To be fair, I think it was *easier* in some ways for those of us who
> > > actually experienced it to deal with it. it was unreal enough
>as it was –
> > > my friends who happened to be out of town at the time needed to get back
> > > in, to see to feel to hear what was going on without the mediation. those
> > > of us who were right downtown watching had more to deal with sooner, more
> > > horror if you will, but we had the gift of our own senses, our
> > > insufficient physical and psychological "mediation" or self-protective
> > > devices. we didn't have to make that leap from mediated horror
>to register
> > > the reality – it sounds crazy, but i've felt grateful that I had my own
> > > experience of it
> > >
> >
> > I guess its a western luxury to be able to be grateful for the
>experience of
> > being in a city when it is bombed. This is, of course, an experience had
> > counteless times around the world by other individuals. Seldom do we hear
> > that they are grateful for the experience. The warring factions
>around Kabul
> > killed 50,000 by raining missiles randomly down on the city. I guess most
> > inhabitants weren't grateful and would rather have watched in on CNN etc.
> > Only it wasn't on CNN because the world had no interest at all.
> > Picasso made a work about Guernica, the genesis of bombing
>civilians, though
> > he wasn't there to experience it. Maybe he was the CNN of his day :)
> > Sow the wind …
> > Ivan
> >
>
>+ your mama don't dance and your daddy don't rock & roll
>-> Rhizome.org
>-> post: [email protected]
>-> questions: [email protected]
>-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>+
>Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php3
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PLASMA STUDII
http://plasmastudii.org
223 E 10th Street
PMB 130
New York, NY 10003
In a message dated 7/10/2002 5:50:06 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
> techiness
Tetchiness, right? Irritability? No evil in that. Yes we are headed for
one uglysome birthday. Which infodentally falls on day 11 del conferencio
genieuse deux milles forever and ever unto finito.
Slippy toad and peppy hare,
Len
++
one doesn't have to open the entire can of worms or make disclaimers for
being American or having the 'luxury' to distinguish etc. etc. every
single time one comments on 9/11. sheesh. We already know we live in
disneyland, that's my point. i made a short comment on mediation and the
lack of it – that whole dynamic is far from understood. ivan already sent
me a note explaining his techiness as preparation/ girding his loins for
the [soon to be highly mediated] anniversary effect we're headed towards
in a matter of months. i think we can probably all agree and say 'blegh'
to that inevitability in unison, eh?
actually, my remarks were originally in regard to eryk's piece, which i
think is worth defending (and now i feel a sort of responsibility toward
it!)
;)
also: i kinda disagree with what you say 'most new yorkers' felt
looking out their windows, though it does have a catchy sound to it. i
just think the range of experiences here are more varied than you
think, despite our disney-ed brains, despite CNN. Or maybe even partially
in response to all that. Once again, Eryk's gut reaction in the TV shop:
'blegh'.
I think it's important to allow for the possibility that as individuals we
employ our own bizarre and quite varied personal filtering devices, even
if we are tuned-in to tv most of the time.
that's what I find really interesting: how we continually have the option
to subvert or flout authoritative mainstream versions of experience. i
think it's amazing and in a way it's unexplored territory, still, despite
all the media theory and scholarship. even we do it–have the potential
to do it. it may be a question of gut response, or of desire, i dunno.
peace,
joy
On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Plasma Studii wrote:
> hey joy,
>
> seems like ivan was saying something else. didn't read like he
> actually thought YOU had glossed over the real horrors of being
> bombed. rather that in the US (esp in such a big US city), the
> average person still has the "luxury" of intellectually separating
> the traumatic from an appreciation for the experience itself. What
> PERCENTAGE of the population here was tangibly more effected than
> folks in paris?
>
> If Kabul gets bombed, a larger majority of the people there wouldn't
> care how much "realer" their experience was than the news coverage.
> To many in the world, this distinction is a triviality, though maybe
> you find it fascinating. (esp. if we aren't completely absorbed in
> the task of plain surviving the aftermath)
>
> Obviously, the Picasso/Guernica thing is just an illustration that
> this first-hand witnessing is hardly a necessity. there is no
> benefit to it besides very PERSONAL interest. But for most of us
> NYers, we may have seen something meaningless out of a window or from
> a roof-top but don't be fooled. We are ALL getting the story from
> "CNN" in some form.
>
> We may be obsessed with excess but we also have that excess to throw
> around. some place in norway? donated $$ for a choral recital in
> carnegie hall to NY as a response to 9/11. i went as a friend of a
> performer. such is our "relief".
>
> Surely everyone has heard about the shi-shi caterers who went to
> ground zero for the clean-up to serve 5 star lobster bisque. that
> site is a tourist attraction now, complete with gift shopping for
> 9/11 paraphernalia. cash in on american flag sales while you can.
>
> cool though, I think this was our best response. (even if it does
> stink of Nationalism Lite™. ) But this stuff just isn't what
> happens in other parts of the world. we live in disneyland. And as
> americans (healthy and proud, with straight white teeth), we are
> really just slave labor for the Magic Kingdom.
>
> judson
>
>
>
> >You distort my meaning in order to state a truism. Obviously "greatful"
> >was not applied to the experience of being bombed; it should be a given,
> >especially in this tech savvy community that we in the 1st world foster
> >and live through a super-mediated culture in which "reality" and fantasy
> >are frequently blurred. that is the reference point for my remarks, it
> >should be pretty obvious.
> >
> >nuff said.
> >
> >JG
> >
> >
> >On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Ivan Pope wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > > more on the distance/mediation thing:
> > > >
> > > > To be fair, I think it was *easier* in some ways for those of us who
> > > > actually experienced it to deal with it. it was unreal enough
> >as it was –
> > > > my friends who happened to be out of town at the time needed to get back
> > > > in, to see to feel to hear what was going on without the mediation. those
> > > > of us who were right downtown watching had more to deal with sooner, more
> > > > horror if you will, but we had the gift of our own senses, our
> > > > insufficient physical and psychological "mediation" or self-protective
> > > > devices. we didn't have to make that leap from mediated horror
> >to register
> > > > the reality – it sounds crazy, but i've felt grateful that I had my own
> > > > experience of it
> > > >
> > >
> > > I guess its a western luxury to be able to be grateful for the
> >experience of
> > > being in a city when it is bombed. This is, of course, an experience had
> > > counteless times around the world by other individuals. Seldom do we hear
> > > that they are grateful for the experience. The warring factions
> >around Kabul
> > > killed 50,000 by raining missiles randomly down on the city. I guess most
> > > inhabitants weren't grateful and would rather have watched in on CNN etc.
> > > Only it wasn't on CNN because the world had no interest at all.
> > > Picasso made a work about Guernica, the genesis of bombing
> >civilians, though
> > > he wasn't there to experience it. Maybe he was the CNN of his day :)
> > > Sow the wind …
> > > Ivan
> > >
> >
> >+ your mama don't dance and your daddy don't rock & roll
> >-> Rhizome.org
> >-> post: [email protected]
> >-> questions: [email protected]
> >-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> >+
> >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> >Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php3
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> PLASMA STUDII
> http://plasmastudii.org
> 223 E 10th Street
> PMB 130
> New York, NY 10003
>
> more on the distance/mediation thing:
>
> To be fair, I think it was *easier* in some ways for those of us who
> actually experienced it to deal with it. it was unreal enough as it was –
> my friends who happened to be out of town at the time needed to get back
> in, to see to feel to hear what was going on without the mediation. those
> of us who were right downtown watching had more to deal with sooner, more
> horror if you will, but we had the gift of our own senses, our
> insufficient physical and psychological "mediation" or self-protective
> devices. we didn't have to make that leap from mediated horror to register
> the reality – it sounds crazy, but i've felt grateful that I had my own
> experience of it
>
I guess its a western luxury to be able to be grateful for the experience of
being in a city when it is bombed. This is, of course, an experience had
counteless times around the world by other individuals. Seldom do we hear
that they are grateful for the experience. The warring factions around Kabul
killed 50,000 by raining missiles randomly down on the city. I guess most
inhabitants weren't grateful and would rather have watched in on CNN etc.
Only it wasn't on CNN because the world had no interest at all.
Picasso made a work about Guernica, the genesis of bombing civilians, though
he wasn't there to experience it. Maybe he was the CNN of his day :)
Sow the wind …
Ivan
In a message dated 7/10/2002 5:27:12 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
> cool though, I think this was our best response. (even if it does
> stink of Nationalism Lite™. ) But this stuff just isn't what
> happens in other parts of the world. we live in disneyland. And as
> americans (healthy and proud, with straight white teeth), we are
> really just slave labor for the Magic Kingdom.
What hit me in my sordid puss was the music at the SuperBowl: Kiss, Aguilera
in flagrante, and Bono. Something was still missing however. MC-5?
Shlagel?
I defer the rest of my time to Mr. Annan.
Jay
++
In a message dated 7/10/2002 3:13:32 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
> the genesis of bombing civilians, though
> he wasn't there to experience it. Maybe he was the CNN of his day :)
> Sow the wind …
Dear lovely Ivan Pope, I gotta wonder, are you confusing Western luxury with
something else, I can't quite say what? The six days of creation? Human
cognito-genesis itself I'm thinking. Personal issues aside, would you say
it's a western luxury for someone to believe they are connected to history in
a virtuous way?
The history of luxury is not Western, properly, is it? Luxury is Central
domination, centripetalism rather than right/left no, and evident in every
civilization or empire ever recorded. In the form of a buddhist koan: when
an eye blinks, do we speak of the west blink and the east? No we do not.
Neither did Tolstoyevsky, much concerned with Christ and the planets' ambit.
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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www.geocities.com/genius-2000/NOWcartoons.html
++
You distort my meaning in order to state a truism. Obviously "greatful"
was not applied to the experience of being bombed; it should be a given,
especially in this tech savvy community that we in the 1st world foster
and live through a super-mediated culture in which "reality" and fantasy
are frequently blurred. that is the reference point for my remarks, it
should be pretty obvious.
nuff said.
JG
On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Ivan Pope wrote:
>
> > more on the distance/mediation thing:
> >
> > To be fair, I think it was *easier* in some ways for those of us who
> > actually experienced it to deal with it. it was unreal enough as it was –
> > my friends who happened to be out of town at the time needed to get back
> > in, to see to feel to hear what was going on without the mediation. those
> > of us who were right downtown watching had more to deal with sooner, more
> > horror if you will, but we had the gift of our own senses, our
> > insufficient physical and psychological "mediation" or self-protective
> > devices. we didn't have to make that leap from mediated horror to register
> > the reality – it sounds crazy, but i've felt grateful that I had my own
> > experience of it
> >
>
> I guess its a western luxury to be able to be grateful for the experience of
> being in a city when it is bombed. This is, of course, an experience had
> counteless times around the world by other individuals. Seldom do we hear
> that they are grateful for the experience. The warring factions around Kabul
> killed 50,000 by raining missiles randomly down on the city. I guess most
> inhabitants weren't grateful and would rather have watched in on CNN etc.
> Only it wasn't on CNN because the world had no interest at all.
> Picasso made a work about Guernica, the genesis of bombing civilians, though
> he wasn't there to experience it. Maybe he was the CNN of his day :)
> Sow the wind …
> Ivan
>
In a message dated 7/11/2002 8:54:55 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
> and she shared her
> feelings, however horrible it may sound, of gratitude for this
> particular event not being mediated for her.
Not to be square but I hear Ivan's point here again–what if "non-mediated
events" actually don't exist, but are the sentimentalize culture-life we all
eat here in disney land?
My ques to Ivan is: why is Kabul not disney land? Foucault says it is. I
think foucault will back me on this one.
As to Eryk's piece, I back it 100%–as a monument right here in downtown
disney land. As to Joy, she and I use ESP so I know she's on task, and Ivan,
I'm Ivan too under my dress hope to say but skate on–if you dare bchezne.
Jim T. Herman
genius2000.net
++
In a message dated 7/11/2002 8:54:55 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
> it may sound sick, but i'm
> glad i had a chance to experience those emotions.
>
Which Stockhausen would say is why you should thank Osama Bloloden. A sick
aesthetic, an aesthetic of horror, of judgment day, of the final battle for
the human soul itself, fourth quarter like it or lump it.
And if you say Bloloden is a great artist, not a sissy camel prick, that's a
whole 'nother kettle of worms.
Work hard boy, you'll find, one day you'll have a job like mine,
Max Herman
genius2000.net
++
tim raised a point with me recently off-list, which I think is important
to repeat: some of our reactions seem "shameful" and people are either
loathe to acknowledge them or to discuss them. However, some of us may
agree that it's important to get beyond received moral judgements about
what people should or shouldn't feel when faced with such a situation–
instead it's important–essential–to examine how we actually *do* feel
and to analyse the situation, our behaviours, etc. how else to approach a
critical way of thinking/dealing with this? how else to allow empathy to
flow into action?
It's important to deal with the full spectrum of responses here, and to
refrain from moralizing judgements– they only serve to inhibit, and to
produce more shame.
JG
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Seth Thompson wrote:
> I find this whole conversation troubling. Maybe some people on this
> list need to get off their computer every once in a while and
> volunteer at a soup kitchen, homeless shelter, or psychiatric center
> to name just a few. NYC offers diverse experiences. If you think
> that New York is full of "cotton-fluff" you need to go to the places
> in the city where "you're not supposed to go," "middle class" New
> Yorkers. Volunteering in some of the places I listed above can show
> you that life's "difficulties" do not necessarily come in one blast
> but rather can last over a lifetime.
>
> It seems as though sensitivity is only a result of what has happened
> to oneself rather than being empathetic to others. I hope that this
> can change. I think its awful that people have felt that they have
> found a sense of community due to disaster. I hope one day that some
> people will realize that there was community all the time–all one
> had to do was reach out.
>
> Seth Thompson
>
>
>
>
> >>hey joy,
> >>
> >>seems like ivan was saying something else. didn't read like he
> >>actually thought YOU had glossed over the real horrors of being
> >>bombed. rather that in the US (esp in such a big US city), the
> >>average person still has the "luxury" of intellectually separating
> >>the traumatic from an appreciation for the experience itself. What
> >>PERCENTAGE of the population here was tangibly more effected than
> >>folks in paris?
> >
> >i would say a very large percent. we're just speculating, but there
> >are lots of lots of kids in nyc exhibiting symptoms of
> >post-traumatic stress disorder and i would speculate that your
> >average parisian youngster isn't having that problem as a result of
> >9/11.
> >
> >anyway,
> >
> >i would also speculate that joy is grateful for the trauma. even in
> >the rawness of nyc, the 'cotton-fluff' of average middle-class
> >american existence provides it's own special flavor of grinding
> >ennui (i've heard that boredom is the sensation that humans hate the
> >most, we can take pain longer than boredom). 9/11 brutally punctured
> >this fluff, and to those who weren't personally traumatized through
> >injury or death it has given us something we've never had before
> >(however briefly) both good and bad; a sensualist can appreciate
> >both: a true sense of connectedness and community and REAL emotions
> >of horror and outrage.
> >
> >>
> >>If Kabul gets bombed, a larger majority of the people there
> >>wouldn't care how much "realer" their experience was than the news
> >>coverage. To many in the world, this distinction is a triviality,
> >>though maybe you find it fascinating. (esp. if we aren't
> >>completely absorbed in the task of plain surviving the aftermath)
> >
> >our cultures our totally different. i don't see the distinction as
> >trivial at all. the mediation of western culture is one of it's
> >defining characteristics.
> >
> >>
> >>Obviously, the Picasso/Guernica thing is just an illustration that
> >>this first-hand witnessing is hardly a necessity. there is no
> >>benefit to it besides very PERSONAL interest.
> >
> >of course an artist could imagine human suffering.. but if one had
> >NEVER witnessed it, i don't know how powerful that artist's
> >depiction of it would be.
> >
> >>But for most of us NYers, we may have seen something meaningless
> >>out of a window or from a roof-top but
> >>don't be fooled. We are ALL getting the story from "CNN" in some form.
> >
> >that's joy's point: the mediated culture. and she shared her
> >feelings, however horrible it may sound, of gratitude for this
> >particular event not being mediated for her. we can all understand
> >that i think, i know i've had similar feelings. if you stood on a
> >rooftop and watched what happened and it was 'something meaningless'
> >than i'll never know where you find meaning. personally, as a i
> >watched the first tower collapse my little brain was busy making
> >synaptic connections that it never knew it could (we call them
> >horror). i've never felt anything like it. it may sound sick, but
> >i'm glad i had a chance to experience those emotions.
> >
> ><snip>
> >>
> >>judson
> >>
> >>
> >>>You distort my meaning in order to state a truism. Obviously "greatful"
> >>>was not applied to the experience of being bombed; it should be a given,
> >>>especially in this tech savvy community that we in the 1st world foster
> >>>and live through a super-mediated culture in which "reality" and fantasy
> >>>are frequently blurred. that is the reference point for my remarks, it
> >>>should be pretty obvious.
> >>>
> >>>nuff said.
> >>>
> >>>JG
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Ivan Pope wrote:
> >>>
> >>> >
> >>> > > more on the distance/mediation thing:
> >>> > >
> >>> > > To be fair, I think it was *easier* in some ways for those of us who
> >>> > > actually experienced it to deal with it. it was unreal
> >>>enough as it was –
> >>> > > my friends who happened to be out of town at the time needed
> >>>to get back
> >>> > > in, to see to feel to hear what was going on without the
> >>>mediation. those
> >>> > > of us who were right downtown watching had more to deal with
> >>>sooner, more
> >>> > > horror if you will, but we had the gift of our own senses, our
> >>> > > insufficient physical and psychological "mediation" or
> >>>self-protective
> >>> > > devices. we didn't have to make that leap from mediated
> >>>horror to register
> >>> > > the reality – it sounds crazy, but i've felt grateful that
> >>>I had my own
> >>> > > experience of it
> >>> > >
> >>> >
> >>> > I guess its a western luxury to be able to be grateful for the
> >>>experience of
> >>> > being in a city when it is bombed. This is, of course, an experience had
> >>> > counteless times around the world by other individuals. Seldom
> >>>do we hear
> >>> > that they are grateful for the experience. The warring
> >>>factions around Kabul
> >>> > killed 50,000 by raining missiles randomly down on the city. I
> >>>guess most
> >>> > inhabitants weren't grateful and would rather have watched in
> >>>on CNN etc.
> >>> > Only it wasn't on CNN because the world had no interest at all.
> >>> > Picasso made a work about Guernica, the genesis of bombing
> >>>civilians, though
> >>> > he wasn't there to experience it. Maybe he was the CNN of his day :)
> >>> > Sow the wind …
> >>> > Ivan
> >
> >-
> –
> Seth Thompson
> Wigged Productions
> [email protected]
> http://www.wigged.net
>
> *************************************************************
> Evolving Traditions: Artists Working in New Media
> Video Documentary. 2002. (Color, 56:35)
> Directed and produced by Seth Thompson.
>
> Profiles four internationally recognized artists who have
> incorporated current computer technology into their work to enhance
> their artistic visions. Artists addressed are: Mark Amerika,
> Tennessee Rice Dixon, Toni Dove, and Troika Ranch.
>
> http://www.wigged.net/evolvingtraditions/
> *************************************************************
>
> + live.and.on.fire http://e8z.org
> -> Rhizome.org
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
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> +
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> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php3
>
>hey joy,
>
>seems like ivan was saying something else. didn't read like he
>actually thought YOU had glossed over the real horrors of being
>bombed. rather that in the US (esp in such a big US city), the
>average person still has the "luxury" of intellectually separating
>the traumatic from an appreciation for the experience itself. What
>PERCENTAGE of the population here was tangibly more effected than
>folks in paris?
i would say a very large percent. we're just speculating, but there
are lots of lots of kids in nyc exhibiting symptoms of post-traumatic
stress disorder and i would speculate that your average parisian
youngster isn't having that problem as a result of 9/11.
anyway,
i would also speculate that joy is grateful for the trauma. even in
the rawness of nyc, the 'cotton-fluff' of average middle-class
american existence provides it's own special flavor of grinding ennui
(i've heard that boredom is the sensation that humans hate the most,
we can take pain longer than boredom). 9/11 brutally punctured this
fluff, and to those who weren't personally traumatized through injury
or death it has given us something we've never had before (however
briefly) both good and bad; a sensualist can appreciate both: a true
sense of connectedness and community and REAL emotions of horror and
outrage.
>
>If Kabul gets bombed, a larger majority of the people there wouldn't
>care how much "realer" their experience was than the news coverage.
>To many in the world, this distinction is a triviality, though maybe
>you find it fascinating. (esp. if we aren't completely absorbed in
>the task of plain surviving the aftermath)
our cultures our totally different. i don't see the distinction as
trivial at all. the mediation of western culture is one of it's
defining characteristics.
>
>Obviously, the Picasso/Guernica thing is just an illustration that
>this first-hand witnessing is hardly a necessity. there is no
>benefit to it besides very PERSONAL interest.
of course an artist could imagine human suffering.. but if one had
NEVER witnessed it, i don't know how powerful that artist's depiction
of it would be.
>But for most of us NYers, we may have seen something meaningless out
>of a window or from a roof-top but
>don't be fooled. We are ALL getting the story from "CNN" in some form.
that's joy's point: the mediated culture. and she shared her
feelings, however horrible it may sound, of gratitude for this
particular event not being mediated for her. we can all understand
that i think, i know i've had similar feelings. if you stood on a
rooftop and watched what happened and it was 'something meaningless'
than i'll never know where you find meaning. personally, as a i
watched the first tower collapse my little brain was busy making
synaptic connections that it never knew it could (we call them
horror). i've never felt anything like it. it may sound sick, but i'm
glad i had a chance to experience those emotions.
<snip>
>
>judson
>
>
>
>>You distort my meaning in order to state a truism. Obviously "greatful"
>>was not applied to the experience of being bombed; it should be a given,
>>especially in this tech savvy community that we in the 1st world foster
>>and live through a super-mediated culture in which "reality" and fantasy
>>are frequently blurred. that is the reference point for my remarks, it
>>should be pretty obvious.
>>
>>nuff said.
>>
>>JG
>>
>>
>>On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Ivan Pope wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > > more on the distance/mediation thing:
>> > >
>> > > To be fair, I think it was *easier* in some ways for those of us who
>> > > actually experienced it to deal with it. it was unreal enough
>>as it was –
>> > > my friends who happened to be out of town at the time needed
>>to get back
>> > > in, to see to feel to hear what was going on without the
>>mediation. those
>> > > of us who were right downtown watching had more to deal with
>>sooner, more
>> > > horror if you will, but we had the gift of our own senses, our
>> > > insufficient physical and psychological "mediation" or self-protective
>> > > devices. we didn't have to make that leap from mediated
>>horror to register
>> > > the reality – it sounds crazy, but i've felt grateful that I
>>had my own
>> > > experience of it
>> > >
>> >
>> > I guess its a western luxury to be able to be grateful for the
>>experience of
>> > being in a city when it is bombed. This is, of course, an experience had
>> > counteless times around the world by other individuals. Seldom do we hear
>> > that they are grateful for the experience. The warring factions
>>around Kabul
>> > killed 50,000 by raining missiles randomly down on the city. I guess most
>> > inhabitants weren't grateful and would rather have watched in on CNN etc.
>> > Only it wasn't on CNN because the world had no interest at all.
>> > Picasso made a work about Guernica, the genesis of bombing
>>civilians, though
>> > he wasn't there to experience it. Maybe he was the CNN of his day :)
>> > Sow the wind …
>> > Ivan
–
<twhid>
http://www.mteww.com
</twhid>
Hi,
4,000 dead people. 4,000 families, how many would that
be? Their Uncles, Aunts, cousins, best friends, next door neighbors.
Their kids and their classmates, Moms and Dads, Grandmas, Grandfathers,
people in their Churches, Mosques and Temples, bars.
Their Sisters, Brothers, inlaws, their coworkers, …..
Just a thought.I saw the buildings fall with my own eyes too,
not through a camera lens, it was horrific ,
it was not meaningless.
Anyone who says it was just a death disneyland ride,
they gotta broken soul. We are slaves to consumerism and worse. How does
that make any one individual's suffering worth less than another's?
A child loses her Mother. That's not quantifiable. Not to me.
Got it all figured out?
Puttin' it in it's proper moral, psychological, political perspective?
I'm still struggling with it.
I probably will be struggling with it years from now.
I hope that I am.
Owen Plotkin
I find this whole conversation troubling. Maybe some people on this
list need to get off their computer every once in a while and
volunteer at a soup kitchen, homeless shelter, or psychiatric center
to name just a few. NYC offers diverse experiences. If you think
that New York is full of "cotton-fluff" you need to go to the places
in the city where "you're not supposed to go," "middle class" New
Yorkers. Volunteering in some of the places I listed above can show
you that life's "difficulties" do not necessarily come in one blast
but rather can last over a lifetime.
It seems as though sensitivity is only a result of what has happened
to oneself rather than being empathetic to others. I hope that this
can change. I think its awful that people have felt that they have
found a sense of community due to disaster. I hope one day that some
people will realize that there was community all the time–all one
had to do was reach out.
Seth Thompson
>>hey joy,
>>
>>seems like ivan was saying something else. didn't read like he
>>actually thought YOU had glossed over the real horrors of being
>>bombed. rather that in the US (esp in such a big US city), the
>>average person still has the "luxury" of intellectually separating
>>the traumatic from an appreciation for the experience itself. What
>>PERCENTAGE of the population here was tangibly more effected than
>>folks in paris?
>
>i would say a very large percent. we're just speculating, but there
>are lots of lots of kids in nyc exhibiting symptoms of
>post-traumatic stress disorder and i would speculate that your
>average parisian youngster isn't having that problem as a result of
>9/11.
>
>anyway,
>
>i would also speculate that joy is grateful for the trauma. even in
>the rawness of nyc, the 'cotton-fluff' of average middle-class
>american existence provides it's own special flavor of grinding
>ennui (i've heard that boredom is the sensation that humans hate the
>most, we can take pain longer than boredom). 9/11 brutally punctured
>this fluff, and to those who weren't personally traumatized through
>injury or death it has given us something we've never had before
>(however briefly) both good and bad; a sensualist can appreciate
>both: a true sense of connectedness and community and REAL emotions
>of horror and outrage.
>
>>
>>If Kabul gets bombed, a larger majority of the people there
>>wouldn't care how much "realer" their experience was than the news
>>coverage. To many in the world, this distinction is a triviality,
>>though maybe you find it fascinating. (esp. if we aren't
>>completely absorbed in the task of plain surviving the aftermath)
>
>our cultures our totally different. i don't see the distinction as
>trivial at all. the mediation of western culture is one of it's
>defining characteristics.
>
>>
>>Obviously, the Picasso/Guernica thing is just an illustration that
>>this first-hand witnessing is hardly a necessity. there is no
>>benefit to it besides very PERSONAL interest.
>
>of course an artist could imagine human suffering.. but if one had
>NEVER witnessed it, i don't know how powerful that artist's
>depiction of it would be.
>
>>But for most of us NYers, we may have seen something meaningless
>>out of a window or from a roof-top but
>>don't be fooled. We are ALL getting the story from "CNN" in some form.
>
>that's joy's point: the mediated culture. and she shared her
>feelings, however horrible it may sound, of gratitude for this
>particular event not being mediated for her. we can all understand
>that i think, i know i've had similar feelings. if you stood on a
>rooftop and watched what happened and it was 'something meaningless'
>than i'll never know where you find meaning. personally, as a i
>watched the first tower collapse my little brain was busy making
>synaptic connections that it never knew it could (we call them
>horror). i've never felt anything like it. it may sound sick, but
>i'm glad i had a chance to experience those emotions.
>
><snip>
>>
>>judson
>>
>>
>>>You distort my meaning in order to state a truism. Obviously "greatful"
>>>was not applied to the experience of being bombed; it should be a given,
>>>especially in this tech savvy community that we in the 1st world foster
>>>and live through a super-mediated culture in which "reality" and fantasy
>>>are frequently blurred. that is the reference point for my remarks, it
>>>should be pretty obvious.
>>>
>>>nuff said.
>>>
>>>JG
>>>
>>>
>>>On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Ivan Pope wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> > > more on the distance/mediation thing:
>>> > >
>>> > > To be fair, I think it was *easier* in some ways for those of us who
>>> > > actually experienced it to deal with it. it was unreal
>>>enough as it was –
>>> > > my friends who happened to be out of town at the time needed
>>>to get back
>>> > > in, to see to feel to hear what was going on without the
>>>mediation. those
>>> > > of us who were right downtown watching had more to deal with
>>>sooner, more
>>> > > horror if you will, but we had the gift of our own senses, our
>>> > > insufficient physical and psychological "mediation" or
>>>self-protective
>>> > > devices. we didn't have to make that leap from mediated
>>>horror to register
>>> > > the reality – it sounds crazy, but i've felt grateful that
>>>I had my own
>>> > > experience of it
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> > I guess its a western luxury to be able to be grateful for the
>>>experience of
>>> > being in a city when it is bombed. This is, of course, an experience had
>>> > counteless times around the world by other individuals. Seldom
>>>do we hear
>>> > that they are grateful for the experience. The warring
>>>factions around Kabul
>>> > killed 50,000 by raining missiles randomly down on the city. I
>>>guess most
>>> > inhabitants weren't grateful and would rather have watched in
>>>on CNN etc.
>>> > Only it wasn't on CNN because the world had no interest at all.
>>> > Picasso made a work about Guernica, the genesis of bombing
>>>civilians, though
>>> > he wasn't there to experience it. Maybe he was the CNN of his day :)
>>> > Sow the wind …
>>> > Ivan
>
>-
–
Seth Thompson
Wigged Productions
[email protected]
http://www.wigged.net
*************************************************************
Evolving Traditions: Artists Working in New Media
Video Documentary. 2002. (Color, 56:35)
Directed and produced by Seth Thompson.
Profiles four internationally recognized artists who have
incorporated current computer technology into their work to enhance
their artistic visions. Artists addressed are: Mark Amerika,
Tennessee Rice Dixon, Toni Dove, and Troika Ranch.
http://www.wigged.net/evolvingtraditions/
*************************************************************
In a message dated 7/11/2002 8:54:55 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
> post-traumatic
> stress disorder and i would speculate that your average parisian
> youngster isn't having that problem as a result of 9/11.
Good point, not to mention the chemical contamination, PCBs, mercury, dust in
your mouth, the whole "bricks and mortar" of a huge plane fuel inferno right
up one's proverbial ass. The brain is absolutely affected, via hormones and
dreams and you name it. The question at hand is not virtuality sui generi, I
hope we can agree on that. The matter is Eryk's piece, in which these
matters come to mind.
Let's talk ingredients. (Now that's a concept that works.) Who made 9/11?
Think about it, and if it hurts too much get g2keuphoric and listen to Metal
Guru by T.Rex.
Not everything is equivalently virtual. Pull the dirt out of your ears and
listen to the Genius 2000 around you. Bchezne.
All I want is easy action baby,
Marc Boltane
genius2000.net
++
> How does that make any one individual's suffering worth less than
> another's?
that's really the whole thing. what really matters is understanding this.
best,
J
>I saw the buildings fall with my own eyes too,
> not through a camera lens, it was horrific ,
> it was not meaningless.
> Anyone who says it was just a death disneyland ride,
> they gotta broken soul.
> I'm still struggling with it.
> I probably will be struggling with it years from now.
> I hope that I am.
There's no denying the personal impact on millions. But, I'm not sure
whether its worthwhile to restate how horrific it all was to us
individually. I'm interested in how we react as artists. We can't help this,
its how the world goes round.
I once read that when the Germans arrived to beseige Stalingrad in WW2 the
first thing they did was shell the hospitals because they didn't want any
help available to the occupants of that city. In historic terms, September
11th was trivial, though like all human experience, not to those who
experienced it. This is how I contextualise the events. Maybe that makes me
a bad person. Maybe America wants the events of September 11th to be bigger
and badder than any other events because it is America.
>some of our reactions seem "shameful" and people are either
>loathe to acknowledge them or to discuss them.
I'm loathe to discuss some of my reactions, not because I feel they are
shameful, but because I'm scared of what sort of response I will get. I know
and understand my reactions. But I am a European whose jewish father came
from Lithuania via South Africa and whose mother was born in Shanghai, her
father being buried in Ho Chi Minh city. I can't but contextualise the
world. Actually, a few thousand dead people can (and are) created regularly
with basic military equipment (Sebrenica anyone?). The events of September
11th were fearsomely beautiful, which attracts everyones attention. And
apart from that, an understanding that a country that has unleashed terror
where and when it suits had experienced something in return. I'm not here to
mourn for the dead. The dead are just the dead. It's the living I worry
about.
I've said too much already. Ivan
>The events of September
>11th were fearsomely beautiful which attracts everyones attention.
Yuck. Then again, is that what abject means?
>And
>apart from that, an understanding that a country that has unleashed terror
>where and when it suits had experienced something in return.
You know, what is so eery about this whole deal is the 'surgical
strike' quality of the event. There is just this big gaping hole not
quite in the middle of downtown.
>I'm not here to
>mourn for the dead. The dead are just the dead. It's the living I worry
>about.
Children have a very interesting survival mechanism. 'That' day' they
seemed to be even more joyful, more playful, hyper-kinetic bunnies in
the playground. My big one's vocabulary seemed to grow by leaps and
bounds that day as he struggled to find the words that could better
explain to him what he had just witnessed (we saw the second tower
collapse). He had no words for death and he still cannot understand
it because we did not see anybody die –we just saw a building
collapse under a cloud of smoke and fire. That is what is so eerie.
The deaths are not even mediated by the media –they were mediated by
the big slabs of concrete that came tumbling down. I don't know what
other people might think but everybody that found their way to our
rooftop, kept saying the same thing –the buildings are going. Not
'there are people dying by the thousands' but 'the buildings are
going'. That's what we were witnessing right at that moment. Some of
us wondered if people made it out but I don't think none of us even
thought that thousands of people would die because all we saw was the
buildings collapsing.
If aesthetics is the tool of ideology then their media is not just
the channels of communications but everything that has been
manufactured to support the image of the US as the new Rome. From
clothes, to cars to buildings. The question is, has 9/11 humanized
these symbols? I guess that is what Eryk set out to do with his piece
–to find an answer to that question.
Liza
actually, that was brilliant. thanks (if only we could all stop worrying
about how people would respond to our opinions).
J
On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, Ivan Pope wrote:
> >I saw the buildings fall with my own eyes too,
> > not through a camera lens, it was horrific ,
> > it was not meaningless.
> > Anyone who says it was just a death disneyland ride,
> > they gotta broken soul.
> > I'm still struggling with it.
> > I probably will be struggling with it years from now.
> > I hope that I am.
>
> There's no denying the personal impact on millions. But, I'm not sure
> whether its worthwhile to restate how horrific it all was to us
> individually. I'm interested in how we react as artists. We can't help this,
> its how the world goes round.
> I once read that when the Germans arrived to beseige Stalingrad in WW2 the
> first thing they did was shell the hospitals because they didn't want any
> help available to the occupants of that city. In historic terms, September
> 11th was trivial, though like all human experience, not to those who
> experienced it. This is how I contextualise the events. Maybe that makes me
> a bad person. Maybe America wants the events of September 11th to be bigger
> and badder than any other events because it is America.
>
> >some of our reactions seem "shameful" and people are either
> >loathe to acknowledge them or to discuss them.
> I'm loathe to discuss some of my reactions, not because I feel they are
> shameful, but because I'm scared of what sort of response I will get. I know
> and understand my reactions. But I am a European whose jewish father came
> from Lithuania via South Africa and whose mother was born in Shanghai, her
> father being buried in Ho Chi Minh city. I can't but contextualise the
> world. Actually, a few thousand dead people can (and are) created regularly
> with basic military equipment (Sebrenica anyone?). The events of September
> 11th were fearsomely beautiful, which attracts everyones attention. And
> apart from that, an understanding that a country that has unleashed terror
> where and when it suits had experienced something in return. I'm not here to
> mourn for the dead. The dead are just the dead. It's the living I worry
> about.
>
> I've said too much already. Ivan
>
>
>
> + i am my favorite person
> -> Rhizome.org
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php3
>
>tim raised a point with me recently off-list, which I think is important
>to repeat: some of our reactions seem "shameful" and people are either
>loathe to acknowledge them or to discuss them. However, some of us may
>agree that it's important to get beyond received moral judgements about
>what people should or shouldn't feel when faced with such a situation–
>instead it's important–essential–to examine how we actually *do* feel
>and to analyse the situation, our behaviours, etc. how else to approach a
>critical way of thinking/dealing with this? how else to allow empathy to
>flow into action?
>
>It's important to deal with the full spectrum of responses here, and to
>refrain from moralizing judgements– they only serve to inhibit, and to
>produce more shame.
>
>JG
hooray!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PLASMA STUDII
http://plasmastudii.org
223 E 10th Street
PMB 130
New York, NY 10003
hi joy,
>>in the US (esp in such a big US city), the average person still has
>>the "luxury" of intellectually separating the traumatic from an
>>appreciation for the experience itself. [ … ] though maybe you
>>find it fascinating.
>that's what I find really interesting: how we continually have the option
>to subvert or flout authoritative mainstream versions of experience. i
>think it's amazing and in a way it's unexplored territory, still, despite
>all the media theory and scholarship.
that wasn't really the part you were responding to. But hope it
clarifies the point. I guess, I find it interesting, what you find
interesting, which differs enormously from what that person in Kabul
is thinking about. free-will is another superstition. But most
superstitions (though mythological) are ultimately harmless, maybe
make people feel better.
>>But for most of us NYers, we may have seen something meaningless
>>out of a window or from a roof-top but don't be fooled. We are ALL
>>getting the story from "CNN" in some form.
>i just think the range of experiences here are more varied than you
>think, despite our disney-ed brains, despite CNN. Or maybe even partially
>in response to all that.
i like that. i think you are just saying it more optimistically though.
But human's literally can't SEE without a context, which culture
provides, of which CNN has cornered a monopoly on a certain chunk.
We physically have no way of processing thoughts without being fed
and CNN is aggressively convenient. Most (not all of whom got it
directly from CNN) New Yorkers would only be able to FEEL (just like
everyone else in the world) only after getting a processed report.
They are fed the story from CNN or from a person who got the angle
from CNN or is predicting the CNN angle) we want to believe what we
see with our own eyes, but that is an egotistical (meant literally,
not judgmentally) ruse.
An over-simplification would be if you saw a hazy blur and a neighbor
said "It's like those ghosts I've been reading about". Whether you
believe in ghosts or not, you now have a context to compare and it
effects your memory of the original scene. Subconscious. There is
no decision involved.
It is the premise that we become conscious of PRIOR to making those
personal modifications. As we hear more "ghost stories", our memory
will change, reshapes as the context becomes more vivid. I do not
doubt that since sept, you have heard from at least one person who
was not on the scene but saw it on CNN. Probably a few hundred, in
fact. your memory has been reshaped. all of our memories have been
altered.
judson
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PLASMA STUDII
http://plasmastudii.org
223 E 10th Street
PMB 130
New York, NY 10003
I am curious by your "moralizing judgements" word choice. You act as
though September 11, 2001 was a unique situation. It was not. In
the United States, we have been encountering terrorism by both
domestic and international factions for the past ten years. For
many countries, terrorism is not a new phenomenon–it's been going on
for quite a long time.
As cultural producers I feel that it is our responsibility to go
beyond our own little community. My comments are not "moralizing
judgements", but rather hopes that one realizes that there is
"tragedy" on a daily basis that is continually overlooked because
it's not a "hip" subject.
There has been talk on this list that NYC is like Disneyland. I
guess I had never worked in these circles because I had seen a
totally different New York when I had lived there for nine years. I
worked with people from various homeless shelters, drug
rehabilitation centers, and psychiatric centers. These people
introduced me to a sensitivity that I would not have experienced if I
had taken another career path.
I understand that you have experienced grief and community–but you
could have experienced it on a daily basis before and after
Septemeber 11th if you had reached out into your community and shared
your talents outside of your group.
It seems as though the events of September 11, 2001 has become an
academic discussion–putting it into a social and political
perspective. I ask you: what have you learned from this event and
how do you wish to use your experiences to make a difference as
opposed to just expressing your emotions. Look around you and you
may find that there have been people suffering all along not just
because of the events you encountered on September 11, 2001.
Seth Thompson
>tim raised a point with me recently off-list, which I think is important
>to repeat: some of our reactions seem "shameful" and people are either
>loathe to acknowledge them or to discuss them. However, some of us may
>agree that it's important to get beyond received moral judgements about
>what people should or shouldn't feel when faced with such a situation–
>instead it's important–essential–to examine how we actually *do* feel
>and to analyse the situation, our behaviours, etc. how else to approach a
>critical way of thinking/dealing with this? how else to allow empathy to
>flow into action?
>
>It's important to deal with the full spectrum of responses here, and to
>refrain from moralizing judgements– they only serve to inhibit, and to
>produce more shame.
>
>JG
>
>
>
>On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Seth Thompson wrote:
>
>> I find this whole conversation troubling. Maybe some people on this
>> list need to get off their computer every once in a while and
>> volunteer at a soup kitchen, homeless shelter, or psychiatric center
>> to name just a few. NYC offers diverse experiences. If you think
>> that New York is full of "cotton-fluff" you need to go to the places
>> in the city where "you're not supposed to go," "middle class" New
>> Yorkers. Volunteering in some of the places I listed above can show
>> you that life's "difficulties" do not necessarily come in one blast
>> but rather can last over a lifetime.
>>
>> It seems as though sensitivity is only a result of what has happened
>> to oneself rather than being empathetic to others. I hope that this
>> can change. I think its awful that people have felt that they have
>> found a sense of community due to disaster. I hope one day that some
>> people will realize that there was community all the time–all one
>> had to do was reach out.
>>
>> Seth Thompson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >>hey joy,
>> >>
>> >>seems like ivan was saying something else. didn't read like he
>> >>actually thought YOU had glossed over the real horrors of being
>> >>bombed. rather that in the US (esp in such a big US city), the
>> >>average person still has the "luxury" of intellectually separating
>> >>the traumatic from an appreciation for the experience itself. What
> > >>PERCENTAGE of the population here was tangibly more effected than
>> >>folks in paris?
>> >
>> >i would say a very large percent. we're just speculating, but there
>> >are lots of lots of kids in nyc exhibiting symptoms of
>> >post-traumatic stress disorder and i would speculate that your
>> >average parisian youngster isn't having that problem as a result of
>> >9/11.
>> >
>> >anyway,
>> >
>> >i would also speculate that joy is grateful for the trauma. even in
>> >the rawness of nyc, the 'cotton-fluff' of average middle-class
>> >american existence provides it's own special flavor of grinding
> > >ennui (i've heard that boredom is the sensation that humans hate the
> > >most, we can take pain longer than boredom). 9/11 brutally punctured
>> >this fluff, and to those who weren't personally traumatized through
>> >injury or death it has given us something we've never had before
>> >(however briefly) both good and bad; a sensualist can appreciate
>> >both: a true sense of connectedness and community and REAL emotions
>> >of horror and outrage.
>> >
>> >>
>> >>If Kabul gets bombed, a larger majority of the people there
>> >>wouldn't care how much "realer" their experience was than the news
>> >>coverage. To many in the world, this distinction is a triviality,
>> >>though maybe you find it fascinating. (esp. if we aren't
>> >>completely absorbed in the task of plain surviving the aftermath)
>> >
>> >our cultures our totally different. i don't see the distinction as
>> >trivial at all. the mediation of western culture is one of it's
>> >defining characteristics.
>> >
>> >>
>> >>Obviously, the Picasso/Guernica thing is just an illustration that
>> >>this first-hand witnessing is hardly a necessity. there is no
> > >>benefit to it besides very PERSONAL interest.
>> >
>> >of course an artist could imagine human suffering.. but if one had
>> >NEVER witnessed it, i don't know how powerful that artist's
>> >depiction of it would be.
>> >
>> >>But for most of us NYers, we may have seen something meaningless
>> >>out of a window or from a roof-top but
>> >>don't be fooled. We are ALL getting the story from "CNN" in some form.
>> >
>> >that's joy's point: the mediated culture. and she shared her
>> >feelings, however horrible it may sound, of gratitude for this
>> >particular event not being mediated for her. we can all understand
>> >that i think, i know i've had similar feelings. if you stood on a
>> >rooftop and watched what happened and it was 'something meaningless'
>> >than i'll never know where you find meaning. personally, as a i
>> >watched the first tower collapse my little brain was busy making
>> >synaptic connections that it never knew it could (we call them
>> >horror). i've never felt anything like it. it may sound sick, but
>> >i'm glad i had a chance to experience those emotions.
>> >
>> ><snip>
>> >>
>> >>judson
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>You distort my meaning in order to state a truism. Obviously "greatful"
>> >>>was not applied to the experience of being bombed; it should be a given,
>> >>>especially in this tech savvy community that we in the 1st world foster
>> >>>and live through a super-mediated culture in which "reality" and fantasy
>> >>>are frequently blurred. that is the reference point for my remarks, it
>> >>>should be pretty obvious.
>> >>>
>> >>>nuff said.
>> >>>
>> >>>JG
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Ivan Pope wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> >
>> >>> > > more on the distance/mediation thing:
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > To be fair, I think it was *easier* in some ways for
>>those of us who
>> >>> > > actually experienced it to deal with it. it was unreal
>> >>>enough as it was –
>> >>> > > my friends who happened to be out of town at the time needed
>> >>>to get back
>> >>> > > in, to see to feel to hear what was going on without the
>> >>>mediation. those
>> >>> > > of us who were right downtown watching had more to deal with
>> >>>sooner, more
>> >>> > > horror if you will, but we had the gift of our own senses, our
>> >>> > > insufficient physical and psychological "mediation" or
>> >>>self-protective
>> >>> > > devices. we didn't have to make that leap from mediated
>> >>>horror to register
> > >>> > > the reality – it sounds crazy, but i've felt grateful that
>> >>>I had my own
>> >>> > > experience of it
>> >>> > >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I guess its a western luxury to be able to be grateful for the
>> >>>experience of
>> >>> > being in a city when it is bombed. This is, of course, an
>>experience had
>> >>> > counteless times around the world by other individuals. Seldom
>> >>>do we hear
>> >>> > that they are grateful for the experience. The warring
>> >>>factions around Kabul
>> >>> > killed 50,000 by raining missiles randomly down on the city. I
>> >>>guess most
>> >>> > inhabitants weren't grateful and would rather have watched in
>> >>>on CNN etc.
>> >>> > Only it wasn't on CNN because the world had no interest at all.
>> >>> > Picasso made a work about Guernica, the genesis of bombing
>> >>>civilians, though
>> >>> > he wasn't there to experience it. Maybe he was the CNN of his day :)
>> >>> > Sow the wind …
>> >>> > Ivan
> > >
–
Seth Thompson
Wigged Productions
[email protected]
http://www.wigged.net
*************************************************************
Evolving Traditions: Artists Working in New Media
Video Documentary. 2002. (Color, 56:35)
Directed and produced by Seth Thompson.
Profiles four internationally recognized artists who have
incorporated current computer technology into their work to enhance
their artistic visions. Artists addressed are: Mark Amerika,
Tennessee Rice Dixon, Toni Dove, and Troika Ranch.
http://www.wigged.net/evolvingtraditions/
*************************************************************
Not to be square but I hear Ivan's point here again–what if "non-mediated
events" actually don't exist, but are the sentimentalize culture-life we all
eat here in disney land?
My ques to Ivan is: why is Kabul not disney land? Foucault says it is. I
think foucault will back me on this one.
– If the gulf war didn't happen then events in Afghanistan certainly
didn't then events in New York ditto.
Well, of course Kabul is disney land to me, you etc. To the current western
political leadership its Storyland, one of those places where you can make
up whatever narrative you like and get away with it. Last time there was a
fight over Kabul 50,000 people were killed and that is a perspective
statistic for me. Who were those people? No idea. Who was killed in New
York? No idea. What do we know of New York? Kabul? Does such a place even
exist? Even when we live there its a construct.
Boltanski once said 'I like to make sentimental art'. I've spent the last
few years trying to figure out what that means in reference to his work, but
I like the idea. Sometimes the simplest phrases are the most difficult to
work out. I think Eryk's piece is sentimental art in the way that
Boltanski's is.
I feel a need at this point to crit Eryk's work in some way that relates to
new media or net.art or somesuch, but I can't. I just regard it as some
piece of work that I saw that references my world and adds to it. And then
we move on.
Ivan
++
2,800+ people dead
Hi Judson and others–
I chanced on this post. It strikes a chord though. Your expression 'down
the street' is right about the WTC – I live off W. 10th st. and Hudson and
it was 'down the street'.
I think people in the rest of America felt the disaster symbolically. I
felt it as a huddled hush in this neighborhood. I haven't gone near it.
After I was afraid to fly and went through a series of emotions, fear,
sadness, grief. I wanted my neice to change her wedding plans and not go to
Hawaii–but she was set on it–so I flew there to see my brother from
Colorado and family – and he died from a sudden cardiac arrest 5 days after
the wedding while scuba diving.
I had a sense of foreboding before I left–like the wheel of fortune was
going to turn down inevitably (from being at a high point feeling about my
neices wedding and great happiness there). And I don't know if the
foreboding was because of the WTC or a premonition of my brother's death to
come.
It was good I got over the fear of flying–because the wedding event was
the last time I would see my brother so near the concluding days of his
life. It was a great high point and I felt my parents' spirit there.
Back here I haven't been to the pit ever or yet–and here they are unveiling
new plans today for building for 2007. I used to swim in the Marriott
formerly Vista in front of the WTC. I think it would be too upsetting to go
there and will avoid it if I can until the space is filled with a
replacement structure.
My family is going on with my neices new marriage and another neice, my
brother's other daughter, having a new boyfriend. Time stops for no man and
there will be a replacement structure. It makes me feel good to know and see
a replacement structure – tho I hate to think about and can't stand to see
or think about things being washed away. Someday I have to go by the WTC
again and I'm sure I'll have strong feelings about it. The crash was so
surgical in that it pinpointed that precise area and 'up the street' it can
seem normal – but it was a terrible attack on America and a wake up call
about the value and security of all kinds of resources we have taken for
granted.
Judy
—– Original Message —–
From: "Liza Sabater-Napier" <[email protected]>
To: "Ivan Pope" <[email protected]>
Cc: "Rhizome_Raw" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: re: that day
> >The events of September
> >11th were fearsomely beautiful which attracts everyones attention.
>
> Yuck. Then again, is that what abject means?
>
> >And
> >apart from that, an understanding that a country that has unleashed
terror
> >where and when it suits had experienced something in return.
>
> You know, what is so eery about this whole deal is the 'surgical
> strike' quality of the event. There is just this big gaping hole not
> quite in the middle of downtown.
>
> >I'm not here to
> >mourn for the dead. The dead are just the dead. It's the living I worry
> >about.
>
> Children have a very interesting survival mechanism. 'That' day' they
> seemed to be even more joyful, more playful, hyper-kinetic bunnies in
> the playground. My big one's vocabulary seemed to grow by leaps and
> bounds that day as he struggled to find the words that could better
> explain to him what he had just witnessed (we saw the second tower
> collapse). He had no words for death and he still cannot understand
> it because we did not see anybody die –we just saw a building
> collapse under a cloud of smoke and fire. That is what is so eerie.
>
> The deaths are not even mediated by the media –they were mediated by
> the big slabs of concrete that came tumbling down. I don't know what
> other people might think but everybody that found their way to our
> rooftop, kept saying the same thing –the buildings are going. Not
> 'there are people dying by the thousands' but 'the buildings are
> going'. That's what we were witnessing right at that moment. Some of
> us wondered if people made it out but I don't think none of us even
> thought that thousands of people would die because all we saw was the
> buildings collapsing.
>
> If aesthetics is the tool of ideology then their media is not just
> the channels of communications but everything that has been
> manufactured to support the image of the US as the new Rome. From
> clothes, to cars to buildings. The question is, has 9/11 humanized
> these symbols? I guess that is what Eryk set out to do with his piece
> –to find an answer to that question.
>
> Liza
> + i am my favorite person
> -> Rhizome.org
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php3
>