Interview with Nat Muller

Interview with Nat Muller, by Marisa S. Olson
Nat Muller is a Venezuela-born Dutch curator and writer living inRotterdam and working internationally. She went to High SchoolinBelgium before earning a BA in English Lit from Tel-AvivUniversityand an MA in Lit at Sussex, in the Sexual Dissidence andCultural Change program. She continues to work on a global scale,organizing exhibitions, performances, talks, and publications on arange ofthemes related to media activism and electronic art. She'sworked quite a bit with V2, where she was formerly project manager andcurator. Amongst others she co-curated the Dutch Electronic ArtFestival (DEAF) in 2004, and has participated and organized programsfor Transmediale 2005, ISEA 2002, and many other major festivals. Nathas also collaborated on projects in Eastern Europe, such as"TheTrans_European Picnic: The Art and Media of Accession", and otherfestivals across Europe. All of this made for a very interestingconversation.
I flew from New York to Amsterdam and took a train straight toRotterdam, where I was to spend the evening at Nat's in a sort ofblind date interview scenario. I woke up from a jetlagger's nap tofind that she'd cooked me an amazing meal and after several glasses ofwine we started recording our conversation about her work and aboutnew media, in general. We discussed the relationship of food tocurating, the status of cyberfeminism, the status of Holland and ofindependent curators in Europe, the hidden dangers of databaseaesthetics, the unusually vibrant sound art scene in Jerusalem, andthe challenges of curating and collaborating in the Middle East

Hi MO - This is such a great piece. You cover a lot of ground and capture
the evening as well. I like how Nat frames cyberfeminism, and it makes me
wonder how you conceptualize your work - particularly 'Marisa's American
Idol Training Blog' and its extension 'Audit' - in relation to a feminist or
the notion of a postfeminist politics.

Also - your reaction to the NYT piece was similarly compelling. I hope you
elaborate your 'criticism of repulsion' theory at some point.

L

On 6/28/05 7:25 PM, "Marisa S. Olson" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Interview with Nat Muller, by Marisa S. Olson
> Nat Muller is a Venezuela-born Dutch curator and writer living inRotterdam and
> working internationally. She went to High School inBelgium before earning a BA
> in English Lit from Tel-Aviv Universityand an MA in Lit at Sussex, in the
> Sexual Dissidence and CulturalChange program. She continues to work on a
> global scale, organizingexhibitions, performances, talks, and publications on
> a range ofthemes related to media activism and electronic art. She's
> workedquite a bit with V2, where she was formerly project manager andcurator.
> Amongst others she co-curated the Dutch Electronic ArtFestival (DEAF) in 2004,
> and has participated and organized programsfor Transmediale 2005, ISEA 2002,
> and many other major festivals. Nathas also collaborated on projects in
> Eastern Europe, such as "TheTrans_European Picnic: The Art and Media of
> Accession", and otherfestivals across Europe. All of this made for a very
> interestingconversation.
> I flew from New York to Amsterdam and took a train straight toRotterdam, where
> I was to spend the evening at Nat's in a sort ofblind date interview scenario.
> I woke up from a jetlagger's nap tofind that she'd cooked me an amazing meal
> and after several glasses ofwine we started recording our conversation about
> her work and aboutnew media, in general. We discussed the relationship of food
> tocurating, the status of cyberfeminism, the status of Holland and
> ofindependent curators in Europe, the hidden dangers of databaseaesthetics,
> the unusually vibrant sound art scene in Jerusalem, andthe challenges of
> curating and collaborating in the Middle EastS
> MO: Your bio says that you are a freelance writer,
> curator,producer/organizer, critic, and a foodie/delight-maker. That's
> manyhats to be wearing, but I'm especially curious about thedelight-making
> role. Food seems to be a running theme in your work,from the collaboration
> with FOAM to the Open Brunch you organized atDEAF, to the Trans-European
> picnic, and other projects you'vedeveloped. Why is food so important to you?
> NM: I started cooking really late, at the age of 25. Before that Iwould refuse
> to cook out of hardcore feminist conviction. I grew up ina very multi-cultural
> household with parents of Jewish/Middle Easternand Dutch/Asian origin. It was
> a very rich environment where foodalways set the scene for a particular social
> context. I guess I ammost interested in the set of codes and protocols coming
> with thepreparation and consumption of food: it is so much based
> oncommunication. When I organize an event I always try to get thepeople
> involved to share a meal together beforehand, because it doesshed certain
> facades or inhibitions when people break bread together.To me the best social
> interface is still the dinner table. People canshow themselves a bit more at
> the dinner table and that's fundamentalin collaborations. It's also the
> pleasure principle: food is verysynaesthetic. It's similar to working with
> alternative interfaces,wearable media or mixed reality environments where you
> are trying toget people to use and extend their sensual faculties and
> perceptions.
> MO: So is food preparation, for you, a metaphor for curating or somekind of
> cultural production?
> NM: Well, I guess you could put it that way: you're working withbringing raw
> ingredients together and working towards "a dish" that isbalanced, and "works"
> from the perspective of tastes, textures,colours, fragrances. If one
> ingredient or flavour sticks out toomuch, then it dominates the dish. This is
> not quite the ideaS.not infood, nor in project coordination.For me cooking is
> very much methodological, and is somehow based on aprinciple of synthesis:
> where the combination of various elementsengender something newS.and of course
> allow for a pleasurableconsumption. It is particularly the issue of pleasure
> that I wouldlike to see brought back more strategically within artistic
> practice,without making it populist or light. The food thing is similar to
> myinterest in sexuality. It's sensual and tactile. Next to tacticalmedia, we
> definitely need tactile and tangible media.
> MO: It also seems like a good way to stay grounded in the midst ofyour busy
> life. You travel so much and work with artists from so manybackgrounds, and
> you have written and organized events around a numberof themes. Is there one
> overarching idea that thematizes yourcurating?
> NM: Well, I don't come from an arts background. For me thesocio-political
> context is always the most important. To me art offersa lens through which to
> view socio-political conditions. I'm notinterested in aesthetics for
> aesthetics' sake.
> MO: What about the issue of feminism? A minute ago you handed me areader
> called CTRL-SHIFT-ART/ CTRL-SHIFT-GENDER (published by Axis in2000) and you
> said "this is something I did when I was still acyberfeminist." Why are you
> not, anymore and what do you think aboutthe status of contemporary
> cyberfeminism?
> NM: It's dead!!! And the question is, also, was there ever such athing to
> begin with? What I found really attractive, in the mid-90s,with groups like
> VNS Matrix, is that they had this really sexy kind offeminism. It was
> certainly different from that second wave separatistBirkenstock/we-hate-men
> kind of thing or that third wave, intellectualCixous or Irigaray kind of
> feminismSof which

Thanks, Lauren. It was a very fun evening and an engagingconversation. We couldn't even include all of it in the interviewbecause it lasted for hours. Nat's a very smart woman who deserves tobe on everyone's radar, as far as cool curators/producers go.
It's hard for me to discuss my own brand of postfeminism (and it'sdefinitely in the post camp) because it is so super steeped in myhaving studied under Judith Butler, Kaja Silverman, Linda Williams,and Teresa De Lauretis, at various points on my educational career. Inother words, it's steeped in Freud, Lacan, and post(post)structuralistsemiotics, among other heavy discourses. I've had to go through my ownprocesses of rebellion and embrace in relation to that. I think thatmany women of my generation (I am 28) have had to struggle withidentifying with or finding resources in what feels not like a newwave of feminism but an anti-wave or post-wave. Seriously, I don'tknow that anyone on this list will have any interest in reading myrantings about this, but just in case… I think there's a whole setof intertwining issues, here, related to how one sees objects, how oneapproaches their field, and how one generally comports themselves.
This more theory-infused strain of postfeminism has trouble with thenotion of difference (not only sexual difference, but also a semioticplay of differences), now, because things are no longer concrete.Everything is a simulacrum. Things are not only not themselves, butnot even "fakes," let's say, of some other "real" thing. (I'll spareyou the Baudrillard lecture.) So it's hard to have the kind of economyor numismatics of difference that a feminism needs (or most other-isms, as I said to Nat, in the interview), when your currency is soliquid.
Regarding "Marisa's American Idol Audition Training Blog" and "Audit"(its iPod conversion), I guess this postfeminism plays itself out indirect & indirect ways. From the get-go, I was concerned with how theshow perpetuates certain gender normativizing stereotypes, beautymyths, etc–how should a woman act or not act, what is/isn'tattractive, what is the value of attractiveness, etc… I used anumber of double entendres and self-implicit "she"s (vs "he"s) toaddress language-based gender assumptions, but i think the deeperextension of these concerns is the fact that I really feel like thatproject is an autobiography, no matter how far-fetched it may seem.It's all true, and yet largely false, at the same time.
I guess my own postfeminism has me less concerned with who I can/can'tbe or what I am/am not entitled to than it has me believing that I canhave my cake and eat it to, since the solid categories of true, false,right wrong, equal, unequal, etc have become so wobbly. (Um, haspostfeminism made me greedy? Perhaps, but not in such a way as tothink I am more or less entitled to the things I want than a man oranotehr woman or whomever.) Yes, it's problematic that thesecategories still have some presence, and yes it's problematic that I'msaying categories of difference continue to have value. Thatdistinction, too, has become wobbly. I've never been a fan of the"cyber" prefix, per se, but to put the cyber into mycyber(post)feminism, I'd say that "new digital tools" have allowed meto make these barriers more wobbly, or to find new ways to jump overthem. This sounds murky to me, even as I type, but what I mean to sayis that the blog format and the ipod allowed me to make a true/falseautobiography that video and the boombox could not have allowed me tomake (despite the fact that both of the latter technologies have had ahuge impact on the life that would be encapsulated by my autobio).
Unfortunately, Rhizome's list has been less active in discussingfeminism(s) than other lists (and I know Rachel made distinct,personal efforts to work on this), but if anyone out there is readingthis (?) and has an opinion about the state of contemporary"cyberfeminism" or postfeminism–or postmasculinism! orpostqueerism!–let's open it up.
Marisa
On 6/29/05, Lauren Cornell <[email protected]> wrote:> Hi MO - This is such a great piece. You cover a lot of ground and capture> the evening as well. I like how Nat frames cyberfeminism, and it makes me> wonder how you conceptualize your work - particularly 'Marisa's American> Idol Training Blog' and its extension 'Audit' - in relation to a feminist or> the notion of a postfeminist politics.> > Also - your reaction to the NYT piece was similarly compelling. I hope you> elaborate your 'criticism of repulsion' theory at some point.> > L> > On 6/28/05 7:25 PM, "Marisa S. Olson" <[email protected]> wrote:> > > Interview with Nat Muller, by Marisa S. Olson> > Nat Muller is a Venezuela-born Dutch curator and writer living inRotterdam and> > working internationally. She went to High School inBelgium before earning a BA> > in English Lit from Tel-Aviv Universityand an MA in Lit at Sussex, in the> > Sexual Dissidence and CulturalChange program. She continues to work on a> > global scale, organizingexhibitions, performances, talks, and publications on> > a range ofthemes related to media activism and electronic art. She's> > workedquite a bit with V2, where she was formerly project manager andcurator.> > Amongst others she co-curated the Dutch Electronic ArtFestival (DEAF) in 2004,> > and has participated and organized programsfor Transmediale 2005, ISEA 2002,> > and many other major festivals. Nathas also collaborated on projects in> > Eastern Europe, such as "TheTrans_European Picnic: The Art and Media of> > Accession", and otherfestivals across Europe. All of this made for a very> > interestingconversation.> > I flew from New York to Amsterdam and took a train straight toRotterdam, where> > I was to spend the evening at Nat's in a sort ofblind date interview scenario.> > I woke up from a jetlagger's nap tofind that she'd cooked me an amazing meal> > and after several glasses ofwine we started recording our conversation about> > her work and aboutnew media, in general. We discussed the relationship of food> > tocurating, the status of cyberfeminism, the status of Holland and> > ofindependent curators in Europe, the hidden dangers of databaseaesthetics,> > the unusually vibrant sound art scene in Jerusalem, andthe challenges of> > curating and collaborating in the Middle EastS> > MO: Your bio says that you are a freelance writer,> > curator,producer/organizer, critic, and a foodie/delight-maker. That's> > manyhats to be wearing, but I'm especially curious about thedelight-making> > role. Food seems to be a running theme in your work,from the collaboration> > with FOAM to the Open Brunch you organized atDEAF, to the Trans-European> > picnic, and other projects you'vedeveloped. Why is food so important to you?> > NM: I started cooking really late, at the age of 25. Before that Iwould refuse> > to cook out of hardcore feminist conviction. I grew up ina very multi-cultural> > household with parents of Jewish/Middle Easternand Dutch/Asian origin. It was> > a very rich environment where foodalways set the scene for a particular social> > context. I guess I ammost interested in the set of codes and protocols coming> > with thepreparation and consumption of food: it is so much based> > oncommunication. When I organize an event I always try to get thepeople> > involved to share a meal together beforehand, because it doesshed certain> > facades or inhibitions when people break bread together.To me the best social> > interface is still the dinner table. People canshow themselves a bit more at> > the dinner table and that's fundamentalin collaborations. It's also the> > pleasure principle: food is verysynaesthetic. It's similar to working with> > alternative interfaces,wearable media or mixed reality environments where you> > are trying toget people to use and extend their sensual faculties and> > perceptions.> > MO: So is food preparation, for you, a metaphor for curating or somekind of> > cultural production?> > NM: Well, I guess you could put it that way: you're working withbringing raw> > ingredients together and working towards "a dish" that isbalanced, and "works"> > from the perspective of tastes, textures,colours, fragrances. If one> > ingredient or flavour sticks out toomuch, then it dominates the dish. This is> > not quite the ideaS.not infood, nor in project coordination.For me cooking is> > very much methodological, and is somehow based on aprinciple of synthesis:> > where the combination of various elementsengender something newS.and of course> > allow for a pleasurableconsumption. It is particularly the issue of pleasure> > that I wouldlike to see brought back more strategically within artistic> > practice,without making it populist or light. The food thing is similar to> > myinterest in sexuality. It's sensual and tactile. Next to tacticalmedia, we> > definitely need tactile and tangible media.> > MO: It also seems like a good way to stay grounded in the midst ofyour busy> > life. You travel so much and work with artists from so manybackgrounds, and> > you have written and organized events around a numberof themes. Is there one> > overarching idea that thematizes yourcurating?> > NM: Well, I don't come from an arts background. For me thesocio-political> > context is always the most important. To me art offersa lens through which to> > view socio-political conditions. I'm notinterested in aesthetics for> > aesthetics' sake.> > MO: What about the issue of feminism? A minute ago you handed me areader> > called CTRL-SHIFT-ART/ CTRL-SHIFT-GENDER (published by Axis in2000) and you> > said "this is something I did when I was still acyberfeminist." Why are you> > not, anymore and what do you think aboutthe status of contemporary> > cyberfeminism?> > NM: It's dead!!! And the question is, also, was there ever such athing to> > begin with? What I found really attractive, in the mid-90s,with groups like> > VNS Matrix, is that they had this really sexy kind offeminism. It was> > certainly different from that second wave separatistBirkenstock/we-hate-men> > kind of thing or that third wave, intellectualCixous or Irigaray kind of> > feminismSof which