As Ethan says, it's very similar to Ayo's "Rent-A-Negro", so I would think that it has limited "…potential historical significance." But perhaps what's even more important is that the work comes across as no more than a joke that's not even funny. Ayo weaves into her texts comments regarding several social issues, giving "Rent-A-Negro" a very sound conceptual base. I fail to see this in "Rentagerman". Thus, I would be interested in hearing from the Artbase coordinator some explanation of what makes this a significant piece of new media art.
When I reviewed "rentagerman" for ArtBase, I wasn't aware of "Rent-a-Negro." Had I been, that certainly would have informed my decision.
To address your question, Pall, "potential historical significance" isn't meant to imply that a project must be historically unique to enter the ArtBase (though "historically unique" would be an excellent credential unto itself). Perhaps a project reiterates a popular theme or contributes to the description of a widespread new media phenomenon–locative media or George W Bush projects, for instance, many of which are similar, and many of which (of varying qualities) have been added to the ArtBase over the last year.
The ArtBase isn't meant to have a significant curatorial voice–it's an archive of new media art that inevitably contains redundancies, because it endeavors to be as comprehensive as possible. This is not to suggest that just any "new media art" flies into the ArtBase–but working with a medium that moves so quickly and is inherently cannibalistic, it's very difficult, and in many cases unimportant, to discern who and what projects should be ultimately attributed to strategies, subjects and ideas.
However, I agree that "rent-a-negro" and "rentagerman" are more than similar, and I don't think that pursuing a discussion of attribution, in this case, is unimportant. Material from "Rent-a-Negro" seems to have been incorporated into "rentagerman," and that appears to be a case of deliberate appropriation or infringement.
I've talked with Damali Ayo about the "rent-a-negro"/"rentagerman" issue and I've invited Johannes to speak up on the list. Hopefully he will let us know how "rentagerman" is meant to relate to "Rent-a-Negro."
> As Ethan says, it's very similar to Ayo's "Rent-A-Negro", so I would > think that it has limited "…potential historical significance." But > perhaps what's even more important is that the work comes across as no > more than a joke that's not even funny. Ayo weaves into her texts > comments regarding several social issues, giving "Rent-A-Negro" a very > sound conceptual base. I fail to see this in "Rentagerman". Thus, I > would be interested in hearing from the Artbase coordinator some > explanation of what makes this a significant piece of new media art. > > Pall > > Ethan Ham wrote: >> Johannes, >> >> Your site seems to be borrowing VERY heavily from damali ayo's >> www.rent-a-negro.com >> >> Could you discuss her influence on your site? >> >> Regards, >> Ethan >> + >> -> post: [email protected] >> -> questions: [email protected] >> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz >> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support >> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members >> + >> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the >> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php >>
i see no reason why both of these sites SHOULDN'T be part of artbase…weird that in a field as conceptually-slanted as net-dot-awt we can't concede that appropriation is an existent method….sssheeesh…
you guys….
(how 'bout a rent-a-blogger site?)
bliss l
— Kevin McGarry <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Pall, Ethan, Johannes. > > First, for anyone who hasn't seen the project yet, > Damali Ayo's > "Rent-a-Negro" has just been added to the ArtBase: > > http://rhizome.org/object.rhiz?32231 > > When I reviewed "rentagerman" for ArtBase, I wasn't > aware of "Rent-a-Negro." > Had I been, that certainly would have informed my > decision. > > To address your question, Pall, "potential > historical significance" isn't > meant to imply that a project must be historically > unique to enter the > ArtBase (though "historically unique" would be an > excellent credential unto > itself). Perhaps a project reiterates a popular > theme or contributes to the > description of a widespread new media > phenomenon–locative media or George W > Bush projects, for instance, many of which are > similar, and many of which > (of varying qualities) have been added to the > ArtBase over the last year. > > The ArtBase isn't meant to have a significant > curatorial voice–it's an > archive of new media art that inevitably contains > redundancies, because it > endeavors to be as comprehensive as possible. This > is not to suggest that > just any "new media art" flies into the ArtBase–but > working with a medium > that moves so quickly and is inherently > cannibalistic, it's very difficult, > and in many cases unimportant, to discern who and > what projects should be > ultimately attributed to strategies, subjects and > ideas. > > However, I agree that "rent-a-negro" and > "rentagerman" are more than > similar, and I don't think that pursuing a > discussion of attribution, in > this case, is unimportant. Material from > "Rent-a-Negro" seems to have been > incorporated into "rentagerman," and that appears to > be a case of deliberate > appropriation or infringement. > > I've talked with Damali Ayo about the > "rent-a-negro"/"rentagerman" issue and > I've invited Johannes to speak up on the list. > Hopefully he will let us know > how "rentagerman" is meant to relate to > "Rent-a-Negro." > > Relevant material, The ArtBase Management Policy: > http://rhizome.org/artbase/policy.htm > > - > Kevin > > > > > > On 4/5/05 5:24 AM, "Pall Thayer" > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > As Ethan says, it's very similar to Ayo's > "Rent-A-Negro", so I would > > think that it has limited "…potential historical > significance." But > > perhaps what's even more important is that the > work comes across as no > > more than a joke that's not even funny. Ayo weaves > into her texts > > comments regarding several social issues, giving > "Rent-A-Negro" a very > > sound conceptual base. I fail to see this in > "Rentagerman". Thus, I > > would be interested in hearing from the Artbase > coordinator some > > explanation of what makes this a significant piece > of new media art. > > > > Pall > > > > Ethan Ham wrote: > >> Johannes, > >> > >> Your site seems to be borrowing VERY heavily from > damali ayo's > >> www.rent-a-negro.com > >> > >> Could you discuss her influence on your site? > >> > >> Regards, > >> Ethan > >> + > >> -> post: [email protected] > >> -> questions: [email protected] > >> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz > >> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support > >> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is > open to non-members > >> + > >> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms > set out in the > >> Membership Agreement available online at > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php > >> > > + > -> post: [email protected] > -> questions: [email protected] > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support > -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is > open to non-members > + > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set > out in the > Membership Agreement available online at > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php >
I must admit that I didn't do my research before lashing out and I just assumed that Rent-A-Negro was already in the Artbase. At least I remember that I first encountered the work through a discussion here on the Rhizome list. So, in light of this over site, I can see where rentagerman could come across has having some significance as a work of netart but in an entirely although, in my own opinion, a far less compelling way than Rent-A-Negro. Damali ayo's project is biting, satirical social commentary. A truly thought provoking eye-opener.
Johannes' project focuses on the commercialization, parodying the fact that you can basically buy or lease anything on the web, similar to "The Body of Michael Daines". Viewed all by itself this could make for an interesting piece but due to the fact that it's so similar to Rent-A-negro, it fades in comparison because of Rent-A-Negro's strong conceptual base.
I'm fully aware that "historical significance" doesn't mean "historically unique" and I'm not even sure I agree that "historically unique" would be that great a credential. Artwork should relate in some way to things that have been done before. It provides us with a means to understand the work. If you try to invent the wheel in one big leap, no-one's going to know what to do with it. A little step here is passed on, another step there and eventually you have your wheel and instead of everyone saying, "huh?", everyone says, "aha!". If it's any good then you'll have everyone making their own version of it. Some will be as good as the original, some worse and a handful will be better. Another very good project that deals with similar issues as Rent-A-Negro, but in a very different way, is "Black People Love Us" (http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/). I have no idea which of the two came first. So, "potential historical significance", yes, "historically unique", no.
Pall
Kevin McGarry wrote: > Hi Pall, Ethan, Johannes. > > First, for anyone who hasn't seen the project yet, Damali Ayo's > "Rent-a-Negro" has just been added to the ArtBase: > > http://rhizome.org/object.rhiz?32231 > > When I reviewed "rentagerman" for ArtBase, I wasn't aware of "Rent-a-Negro." > Had I been, that certainly would have informed my decision. > > To address your question, Pall, "potential historical significance" isn't > meant to imply that a project must be historically unique to enter the > ArtBase (though "historically unique" would be an excellent credential unto > itself). Perhaps a project reiterates a popular theme or contributes to the > description of a widespread new media phenomenon–locative media or George W > Bush projects, for instance, many of which are similar, and many of which > (of varying qualities) have been added to the ArtBase over the last year. > > The ArtBase isn't meant to have a significant curatorial voice–it's an > archive of new media art that inevitably contains redundancies, because it > endeavors to be as comprehensive as possible. This is not to suggest that > just any "new media art" flies into the ArtBase–but working with a medium > that moves so quickly and is inherently cannibalistic, it's very difficult, > and in many cases unimportant, to discern who and what projects should be > ultimately attributed to strategies, subjects and ideas. > > However, I agree that "rent-a-negro" and "rentagerman" are more than > similar, and I don't think that pursuing a discussion of attribution, in > this case, is unimportant. Material from "Rent-a-Negro" seems to have been > incorporated into "rentagerman," and that appears to be a case of deliberate > appropriation or infringement. > > I've talked with Damali Ayo about the "rent-a-negro"/"rentagerman" issue and > I've invited Johannes to speak up on the list. Hopefully he will let us know > how "rentagerman" is meant to relate to "Rent-a-Negro." > > Relevant material, The ArtBase Management Policy: > http://rhizome.org/artbase/policy.htm > > - > Kevin > > > > > > On 4/5/05 5:24 AM, "Pall Thayer" <[email protected]> wrote: > > >>As Ethan says, it's very similar to Ayo's "Rent-A-Negro", so I would >>think that it has limited "…potential historical significance." But >>perhaps what's even more important is that the work comes across as no >>more than a joke that's not even funny. Ayo weaves into her texts >>comments regarding several social issues, giving "Rent-A-Negro" a very >>sound conceptual base. I fail to see this in "Rentagerman". Thus, I >>would be interested in hearing from the Artbase coordinator some >>explanation of what makes this a significant piece of new media art. >> >>Pall >> >>Ethan Ham wrote: >> >>>Johannes, >>> >>>Your site seems to be borrowing VERY heavily from damali ayo's >>>www.rent-a-negro.com >>> >>>Could you discuss her influence on your site? >>> >>>Regards, >>>Ethan >>>+ >>>-> post: [email protected] >>>-> questions: [email protected] >>>-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz >>>-> give: http://rhizome.org/support >>>-> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members >>>+ >>>Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the >>>Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php >>> > > > + > -> post: [email protected] > -> questions: [email protected] > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support > -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members > + > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php >
why thankee—-my girlfriend mary came up with it, actually…was one of those moments when the poet was tellin' his lady, ' gee willickers, me sweet, but you are so luscious i'll bet even yer shit is purdy ' to which said poet's lady responded, ' yeah, i poop rainbows… '
I developped rentagerman, put it online and then got an email From somebody from the usa, who wrote me the rent-a-negro.com link.
After this i tried to contact damali, because i wanted to speak with her- without reaction. Renting out people in a way is not the invention of damali by the way… And there are more similar projects from sierra, christoph schlingensief etc.
I do not care, when people think, i copied the idea, because i know, that i did not. And: rent-a-negro causes different reactions then rentagerman.de i think.i am german and want to find out, how the reactions are on offering this service.
When you have contact to damali, i would be happy, if you could tell her about this mail. it could be interesting by the way to collaborate in a way. how about offering a service, which is renting negros and germans in packages ? i do not know, how far damalis project went. rentagerman is also a reaction to the high unemployment rate here in germany. germans have been already rented out for real. and the official german statale agency for work wants to collaborate.(!!!) i think it is not worth sitting there and thinking "oh there´s somebody, who did a similar thing, how the hell could this happen". better to sit there and say "there´s somebody, who did a similar project, great, should try to organise something together". (this is my personal opinion, when somebody is sad about the similarity of an idea, he/she can also start to cry, or drink a cup of milk).
On Wednesday, April 06, 2005, at 11:01AM, johannes blank <[email protected]> wrote:
>i am german and want to find out, how the reactions are on offering this service.
I greatly enjoyed reading the site. I found it very cathartic after a bad experience with a German management team last year. Thank you.
Possibly a pan-European rental site would be good? Rent two Italians and get a Spaniard free?
>rentagerman is also a reaction to the high unemployment rate here in germany. germans have been already rented out for real. and the official german statale agency for work wants to collaborate.(!!!)
The site seems to be a very effective social commentary, then. I'd say that makes it worthy of being in the artbase.
>>rentagerman is also a reaction to the high unemployment rate here in germany. germans have been already rented out for real. and the official german statale agency for work wants to collaborate.(!!!) > > > The site seems to be a very effective social commentary, then. I'd say that makes it worthy of being in the artbase. I agree that in light of this explanation it is interesting social commentary but I'm not sure about its effectiveness. The unemployment thing makes for an interesting angle but I would rather have gotten that from the work itself without the artist having to state it.
Don't be offended Johannes, it's just constructive criticism. We're not that good at reading non-explicit references to German social situations into artwork. For instance the unemployment issue. There's nothing in the work or in the Artbase description that gives us 'outsiders' any reason to assume that Germans are renting themselves out because they can't get work.
hello there. i'm just going to drop a quick note into this discussion. i don't want to get into a heavy back and forth, but i do think a significant point is being missed.
rent-a-negro.com received international press upon its release, and therefore it is very likely that johannes had heard of it prior to creating his "rent a german" site.
what is more telling that he was aware of my work, however, is the fact that he took the concept, layout, structure, but most telling- even some of the *exact language* from my site.
this is not a matter of similarity. the commonalities are too identical to be dismissed as "borrowed" or "inspired."
i'm not interested in a he-said/she-said with johannes, the sites speak for themselves.
yet, i do find myself wanting the arts community to honor those artists who create powerful work in the original form. for example, i once performed "cut piece" by yoko ono. this is one of the most potent works of performance i've ever done. even though i made two changes on the nites of my performance (for my saftey and for an aesthetic impact) the work is still clearly hers. i would never ever even consider performing this work or a work like this without crediting the original artist.
perhaps johannes will credit rent-a-negro.com on his site. since he's obviously taken much of his site from there.
for the record, i checked all of my email files (which i keep diligently) and have no record of johannes' claimed attempted contact. i find his suggestion that i should go cry in my milk not only adolescent, but irreverant to say to the artist whose work you obviously cribbed. you're welcome, by the way. much congratulations on your success. i'll pass on the offer to collaborate.
when i find people claiming others art ideas as their own (not only mine, but anyone's) i find it imperative that we hold up the orignial (and usually more effective) source. we all work hard as artists. we should support each other in this sometimes challenging field, not undermine our accomplishments through blatant "appropriation" (a nice euphamism).
best to all of you, and thanks to rhizome for this important discussion.
damali
ps: i tend to get pretty worn out by web-discussions, so this may be the only post i make.
There's nothing in the work or in the Artbase description that gives us 'outsiders' any reason to assume that Germans are renting themselves out because they can't get work.
Pall
–> ..i received lot of emails from germans, who want to rent themselves out. From philosophy professors to unemployed people. Rentagerman is acting like a pure business company (Now it gets in a way official, because of the interest of the statale work agency, and rentagerman will continue to act like a Real company.) Rentagerman will continue to act like a real company and is searching for other collaboration in The social sector here in germany (youth unemployment institutions etc.).
I think it is a sign (zeichen- don´t know the english word now, sorry) for the situation in germany, That the unemployment agency is so desperated with the job situation, that they wanna collaborate with Rentagerman.de
The next step is to install showrooms in real space, which look like car rental agencies, but rent germans. There i hope for interesting reactions from the public, too. There are offers from german institutions/gallerys, to do this in germany, but it does not really Make a sense for me, to rent out germans in germany.
Could you be more specific re: these similarities? From a quick perusal of both sites, it's not obvious that the sites are that similar, except for concept of course.
For example, I don't see how the layout is similar. The rent-a-negro site has a two-column layout, where the rent-a-german site has three.
Do you mean the 'RENT NOW!' language? That seems like it could be a coincidence IMO.
Take care,
On Apr 6, 2005, at 11:35 AM, damali ayo wrote:
> what is more telling that he was aware of my work, however, is the > fact that he took the concept, layout, structure, but most telling- > even some of the *exact language* from my site.
i'm not sure who this is, you didn't sign your email. my apologies if i don't recognize your handle.
i was going to do a point-by-point comparison of the two sites but 1) that started to make me nauseous and 2) i hate web-discussions and didn't want the chat to go on forever and ever, nit-picking detail after detail.
besides the obvious concept and execution in web-site format, it doesn't take long to see that some of his language is mine with just a few changes, the layout issues meaning the sections that are featured, the satisfied customer comments, the presentation of fees, etc. this isn't to say he hasn't made innovative additions. it's has more graphics, and i quite like the photos, and the send-in your own photo component.
i know there are other take-offs of my site out there. there was a rental zine produced, even a band that did a "rent a homo" song. what fun! the zine credited me. the song, for all i know, may or may not have anything to do with my work. i'm not so arrogant to think i am the "mother of all rent-a-person projects." i am thrilled to inspire other artists as they have inspired me. but i'm also big on giving credit where credit is due. perhaps this is expecting too much.
at the end of the day, it's all part of the risk we take as artists. though i sometimes have unrealistically high expectations for us as a group, i'm willing to accept the quirks that come with the territory.
peace to all,
damali ps. sorry for the typos in my last post, i hate it when i do that.
> johannes et al: > > hello there. i'm just going to drop a quick note into this discussion. i don't > want to get into a heavy back and forth, but i do think a significant point is > being missed. > > rent-a-negro.com received international press upon its release, and therefore > it is very likely that johannes had heard of it prior to creating his "rent a > german" site. > > what is more telling that he was aware of my work, however, is the fact that > he took the concept, layout, structure, but most telling- even some of the > *exact language* from my site. > > this is not a matter of similarity. the commonalities are too identical to be > dismissed as "borrowed" or "inspired." > > i'm not interested in a he-said/she-said with johannes, the sites speak for > themselves. > > yet, i do find myself wanting the arts community to honor those artists who > create powerful work in the original form. for example, i once performed "cut > piece" by yoko ono. this is one of the most potent works of performance i've > ever done. even though i made two changes on the nites of my performance (for > my saftey and for an aesthetic impact) the work is still clearly hers. i would > never ever even consider performing this work or a work like this without > crediting the original artist. > > perhaps johannes will credit rent-a-negro.com on his site. since he's > obviously taken much of his site from there. > > for the record, i checked all of my email files (which i keep diligently) and > have no record of johannes' claimed attempted contact. i find his suggestion > that i should go cry in my milk not only adolescent, but irreverant to say to > the artist whose work you obviously cribbed. you're welcome, by the way. much > congratulations on your success. i'll pass on the offer to collaborate. > > when i find people claiming others art ideas as their own (not only mine, but > anyone's) i find it imperative that we hold up the orignial (and usually more > effective) source. we all work hard as artists. we should support each other > in this sometimes challenging field, not undermine our accomplishments through > blatant "appropriation" (a nice euphamism). > > best to all of you, > and thanks to rhizome for this important discussion. > > damali > > ps: i tend to get pretty worn out by web-discussions, so this may be the only > post i make. > + > -> post: [email protected] > -> questions: [email protected] > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support > -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members > + > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php >
….i'm also > big on giving > credit where credit is due. perhaps this is > expecting too much.
welcome to the internet, damali
bliss lewis lacook
************************************************
— damali ayo <[email protected]> wrote: > t.whid- > > i'm not sure who this is, you didn't sign your > email. my apologies if > i don't recognize your handle. > > i was going to do a point-by-point comparison of the > two sites but 1) > that started to make me nauseous and 2) i hate > web-discussions and > didn't want the chat to go on forever and ever, > nit-picking detail > after detail. > > besides the obvious concept and execution in > web-site format, it > doesn't take long to see that some of his language > is mine with just > a few changes, the layout issues meaning the > sections that are > featured, the satisfied customer comments, the > presentation of fees, > etc. this isn't to say he hasn't made innovative > additions. it's > has more graphics, and i quite like the photos, and > the send-in your > own photo component. > > i know there are other take-offs of my site out > there. there was a > rental zine produced, even a band that did a "rent a > homo" song. what > fun! the zine credited me. the song, for all i > know, may or may not > have anything to do with my work. i'm not so > arrogant to think i am > the "mother of all rent-a-person projects." i am > thrilled to inspire > other artists as they have inspired me. but i'm also > big on giving > credit where credit is due. perhaps this is > expecting too much. > > at the end of the day, it's all part of the risk we > take as artists. > though i sometimes have unrealistically high > expectations for us as a > group, i'm willing to accept the quirks that come > with the territory. > > peace to all, > > damali > ps. sorry for the typos in my last post, i hate it > when i do that. > > > + > -> post: [email protected] > -> questions: [email protected] > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support > -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is > open to non-members > + > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set > out in the > Membership Agreement available online at > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php >
Comments
As Ethan says, it's very similar to Ayo's "Rent-A-Negro", so I would
think that it has limited "…potential historical significance." But
perhaps what's even more important is that the work comes across as no
more than a joke that's not even funny. Ayo weaves into her texts
comments regarding several social issues, giving "Rent-A-Negro" a very
sound conceptual base. I fail to see this in "Rentagerman". Thus, I
would be interested in hearing from the Artbase coordinator some
explanation of what makes this a significant piece of new media art.
Pall
Ethan Ham wrote:
> Johannes,
>
> Your site seems to be borrowing VERY heavily from damali ayo's www.rent-a-negro.com
>
> Could you discuss her influence on your site?
>
> Regards,
> Ethan
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
–
_______________________________
Pall Thayer
artist/teacher
http://www.this.is/pallit
http://pallit.lhi.is/panse
Lorna
http://www.this.is/lorna
_______________________________
Hi Pall, Ethan, Johannes.
First, for anyone who hasn't seen the project yet, Damali Ayo's
"Rent-a-Negro" has just been added to the ArtBase:
http://rhizome.org/object.rhiz?32231
When I reviewed "rentagerman" for ArtBase, I wasn't aware of "Rent-a-Negro."
Had I been, that certainly would have informed my decision.
To address your question, Pall, "potential historical significance" isn't
meant to imply that a project must be historically unique to enter the
ArtBase (though "historically unique" would be an excellent credential unto
itself). Perhaps a project reiterates a popular theme or contributes to the
description of a widespread new media phenomenon–locative media or George W
Bush projects, for instance, many of which are similar, and many of which
(of varying qualities) have been added to the ArtBase over the last year.
The ArtBase isn't meant to have a significant curatorial voice–it's an
archive of new media art that inevitably contains redundancies, because it
endeavors to be as comprehensive as possible. This is not to suggest that
just any "new media art" flies into the ArtBase–but working with a medium
that moves so quickly and is inherently cannibalistic, it's very difficult,
and in many cases unimportant, to discern who and what projects should be
ultimately attributed to strategies, subjects and ideas.
However, I agree that "rent-a-negro" and "rentagerman" are more than
similar, and I don't think that pursuing a discussion of attribution, in
this case, is unimportant. Material from "Rent-a-Negro" seems to have been
incorporated into "rentagerman," and that appears to be a case of deliberate
appropriation or infringement.
I've talked with Damali Ayo about the "rent-a-negro"/"rentagerman" issue and
I've invited Johannes to speak up on the list. Hopefully he will let us know
how "rentagerman" is meant to relate to "Rent-a-Negro."
Relevant material, The ArtBase Management Policy:
http://rhizome.org/artbase/policy.htm
-
Kevin
On 4/5/05 5:24 AM, "Pall Thayer" <[email protected]> wrote:
> As Ethan says, it's very similar to Ayo's "Rent-A-Negro", so I would
> think that it has limited "…potential historical significance." But
> perhaps what's even more important is that the work comes across as no
> more than a joke that's not even funny. Ayo weaves into her texts
> comments regarding several social issues, giving "Rent-A-Negro" a very
> sound conceptual base. I fail to see this in "Rentagerman". Thus, I
> would be interested in hearing from the Artbase coordinator some
> explanation of what makes this a significant piece of new media art.
>
> Pall
>
> Ethan Ham wrote:
>> Johannes,
>>
>> Your site seems to be borrowing VERY heavily from damali ayo's
>> www.rent-a-negro.com
>>
>> Could you discuss her influence on your site?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ethan
>> +
>> -> post: [email protected]
>> -> questions: [email protected]
>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
>> +
>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>>
why the hubbub, bubs?
i see no reason why both of these sites SHOULDN'T be
part of artbase…weird that in a field as
conceptually-slanted as net-dot-awt we can't concede
that appropriation is an existent
method….sssheeesh…
you guys….
(how 'bout a rent-a-blogger site?)
bliss
l
— Kevin McGarry <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi Pall, Ethan, Johannes.
>
> First, for anyone who hasn't seen the project yet,
> Damali Ayo's
> "Rent-a-Negro" has just been added to the ArtBase:
>
> http://rhizome.org/object.rhiz?32231
>
> When I reviewed "rentagerman" for ArtBase, I wasn't
> aware of "Rent-a-Negro."
> Had I been, that certainly would have informed my
> decision.
>
> To address your question, Pall, "potential
> historical significance" isn't
> meant to imply that a project must be historically
> unique to enter the
> ArtBase (though "historically unique" would be an
> excellent credential unto
> itself). Perhaps a project reiterates a popular
> theme or contributes to the
> description of a widespread new media
> phenomenon–locative media or George W
> Bush projects, for instance, many of which are
> similar, and many of which
> (of varying qualities) have been added to the
> ArtBase over the last year.
>
> The ArtBase isn't meant to have a significant
> curatorial voice–it's an
> archive of new media art that inevitably contains
> redundancies, because it
> endeavors to be as comprehensive as possible. This
> is not to suggest that
> just any "new media art" flies into the ArtBase–but
> working with a medium
> that moves so quickly and is inherently
> cannibalistic, it's very difficult,
> and in many cases unimportant, to discern who and
> what projects should be
> ultimately attributed to strategies, subjects and
> ideas.
>
> However, I agree that "rent-a-negro" and
> "rentagerman" are more than
> similar, and I don't think that pursuing a
> discussion of attribution, in
> this case, is unimportant. Material from
> "Rent-a-Negro" seems to have been
> incorporated into "rentagerman," and that appears to
> be a case of deliberate
> appropriation or infringement.
>
> I've talked with Damali Ayo about the
> "rent-a-negro"/"rentagerman" issue and
> I've invited Johannes to speak up on the list.
> Hopefully he will let us know
> how "rentagerman" is meant to relate to
> "Rent-a-Negro."
>
> Relevant material, The ArtBase Management Policy:
> http://rhizome.org/artbase/policy.htm
>
> -
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
>
> On 4/5/05 5:24 AM, "Pall Thayer"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > As Ethan says, it's very similar to Ayo's
> "Rent-A-Negro", so I would
> > think that it has limited "…potential historical
> significance." But
> > perhaps what's even more important is that the
> work comes across as no
> > more than a joke that's not even funny. Ayo weaves
> into her texts
> > comments regarding several social issues, giving
> "Rent-A-Negro" a very
> > sound conceptual base. I fail to see this in
> "Rentagerman". Thus, I
> > would be interested in hearing from the Artbase
> coordinator some
> > explanation of what makes this a significant piece
> of new media art.
> >
> > Pall
> >
> > Ethan Ham wrote:
> >> Johannes,
> >>
> >> Your site seems to be borrowing VERY heavily from
> damali ayo's
> >> www.rent-a-negro.com
> >>
> >> Could you discuss her influence on your site?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Ethan
> >> +
> >> -> post: [email protected]
> >> -> questions: [email protected]
> >> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> >> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> >> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> open to non-members
> >> +
> >> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms
> set out in the
> >> Membership Agreement available online at
> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >>
>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at
> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
***************************************************************************
Lewis LaCook –>Poet-Programmer|||http://www.lewislacook.com/|||
Web Programmer|||http://www.corporatepa.com/|||
XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog-> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/
Collective Writing Projects–> The Wiki–> http://www.lewislacook.com/wiki/ Appendix M ->http://www.lewislacook.com/AppendixM/
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Hi Kevin and thanks for the reply,
I must admit that I didn't do my research before lashing out and I just
assumed that Rent-A-Negro was already in the Artbase. At least I
remember that I first encountered the work through a discussion here on
the Rhizome list. So, in light of this over site, I can see where
rentagerman could come across has having some significance as a work of
netart but in an entirely although, in my own opinion, a far less
compelling way than Rent-A-Negro. Damali ayo's project is biting,
satirical social commentary. A truly thought provoking eye-opener.
Johannes' project focuses on the commercialization, parodying the fact
that you can basically buy or lease anything on the web, similar to "The
Body of Michael Daines". Viewed all by itself this could make for an
interesting piece but due to the fact that it's so similar to
Rent-A-negro, it fades in comparison because of Rent-A-Negro's strong
conceptual base.
I'm fully aware that "historical significance" doesn't mean
"historically unique" and I'm not even sure I agree that "historically
unique" would be that great a credential. Artwork should relate in some
way to things that have been done before. It provides us with a means to
understand the work. If you try to invent the wheel in one big leap,
no-one's going to know what to do with it. A little step here is passed
on, another step there and eventually you have your wheel and instead of
everyone saying, "huh?", everyone says, "aha!". If it's any good then
you'll have everyone making their own version of it. Some will be as
good as the original, some worse and a handful will be better. Another
very good project that deals with similar issues as Rent-A-Negro, but in
a very different way, is "Black People Love Us"
(http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/). I have no idea which of the two
came first. So, "potential historical significance", yes, "historically
unique", no.
Pall
Kevin McGarry wrote:
> Hi Pall, Ethan, Johannes.
>
> First, for anyone who hasn't seen the project yet, Damali Ayo's
> "Rent-a-Negro" has just been added to the ArtBase:
>
> http://rhizome.org/object.rhiz?32231
>
> When I reviewed "rentagerman" for ArtBase, I wasn't aware of "Rent-a-Negro."
> Had I been, that certainly would have informed my decision.
>
> To address your question, Pall, "potential historical significance" isn't
> meant to imply that a project must be historically unique to enter the
> ArtBase (though "historically unique" would be an excellent credential unto
> itself). Perhaps a project reiterates a popular theme or contributes to the
> description of a widespread new media phenomenon–locative media or George W
> Bush projects, for instance, many of which are similar, and many of which
> (of varying qualities) have been added to the ArtBase over the last year.
>
> The ArtBase isn't meant to have a significant curatorial voice–it's an
> archive of new media art that inevitably contains redundancies, because it
> endeavors to be as comprehensive as possible. This is not to suggest that
> just any "new media art" flies into the ArtBase–but working with a medium
> that moves so quickly and is inherently cannibalistic, it's very difficult,
> and in many cases unimportant, to discern who and what projects should be
> ultimately attributed to strategies, subjects and ideas.
>
> However, I agree that "rent-a-negro" and "rentagerman" are more than
> similar, and I don't think that pursuing a discussion of attribution, in
> this case, is unimportant. Material from "Rent-a-Negro" seems to have been
> incorporated into "rentagerman," and that appears to be a case of deliberate
> appropriation or infringement.
>
> I've talked with Damali Ayo about the "rent-a-negro"/"rentagerman" issue and
> I've invited Johannes to speak up on the list. Hopefully he will let us know
> how "rentagerman" is meant to relate to "Rent-a-Negro."
>
> Relevant material, The ArtBase Management Policy:
> http://rhizome.org/artbase/policy.htm
>
> -
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
>
> On 4/5/05 5:24 AM, "Pall Thayer" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>As Ethan says, it's very similar to Ayo's "Rent-A-Negro", so I would
>>think that it has limited "…potential historical significance." But
>>perhaps what's even more important is that the work comes across as no
>>more than a joke that's not even funny. Ayo weaves into her texts
>>comments regarding several social issues, giving "Rent-A-Negro" a very
>>sound conceptual base. I fail to see this in "Rentagerman". Thus, I
>>would be interested in hearing from the Artbase coordinator some
>>explanation of what makes this a significant piece of new media art.
>>
>>Pall
>>
>>Ethan Ham wrote:
>>
>>>Johannes,
>>>
>>>Your site seems to be borrowing VERY heavily from damali ayo's
>>>www.rent-a-negro.com
>>>
>>>Could you discuss her influence on your site?
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Ethan
>>>+
>>>-> post: [email protected]
>>>-> questions: [email protected]
>>>-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>>>-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>>>-> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
>>>+
>>>Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>>>Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>>>
>
>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
–
_______________________________
Pall Thayer
artist/teacher
http://www.this.is/pallit
http://pallit.lhi.is/panse
Lorna
http://www.this.is/lorna
_______________________________
lewis, i dig your handle.
why thankee—-my girlfriend mary came up with it,
actually…was one of those moments when the poet was
tellin' his lady, ' gee willickers, me sweet, but you
are so luscious i'll bet even yer shit is purdy ' to
which said poet's lady responded, ' yeah, i poop
rainbows… '
's why i love her—>
bliss
l
— Plasma Studii - judsoN <[email protected]>
wrote:
> lewis, i dig your handle.
>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at
> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
***************************************************************************
Lewis LaCook –>Poet-Programmer|||http://www.lewislacook.com/|||
Web Programmer|||http://www.corporatepa.com/|||
XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog-> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/
Collective Writing Projects–> The Wiki–> http://www.lewislacook.com/wiki/ Appendix M ->http://www.lewislacook.com/AppendixM/
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dear list!
I developped rentagerman, put it online and then got an email
From somebody from the usa, who wrote me the rent-a-negro.com link.
After this i tried to contact damali, because i wanted to speak with her- without reaction. Renting out people in a way is not the invention of damali by the way… And there are more similar projects from sierra, christoph schlingensief etc.
I do not care, when people think, i copied the idea, because i know, that i did not.
And: rent-a-negro causes different reactions then rentagerman.de i think.i am german and want to find out, how the reactions are on offering this service.
When you have contact to damali, i would be happy, if you could tell her about this mail.
it could be interesting by the way to collaborate in a way.
how about offering a service, which is renting negros and germans in packages ?
i do not know, how far damalis project went.
rentagerman is also a reaction to the high unemployment rate here in germany. germans have been already rented out for real. and the official german statale agency for work wants to collaborate.(!!!)
i think it is not worth sitting there and thinking "oh there´s somebody,
who did a similar thing, how the hell could this happen".
better to sit there and say "there´s somebody, who did a similar project, great, should try to organise something together".
(this is my personal opinion, when somebody is sad about the similarity of an idea, he/she can also start to cry, or drink a cup of milk).
Have a nice day, johannes blank.
On Wednesday, April 06, 2005, at 11:01AM, johannes blank <[email protected]> wrote:
>i am german and want to find out, how the reactions are on offering this service.
I greatly enjoyed reading the site. I found it very cathartic after a bad experience with a German management team last year. Thank you.
Possibly a pan-European rental site would be good? Rent two Italians and get a Spaniard free?
>rentagerman is also a reaction to the high unemployment rate here in germany. germans have been already rented out for real. and the official german statale agency for work wants to collaborate.(!!!)
The site seems to be a very effective social commentary, then. I'd say that makes it worthy of being in the artbase.
- Rob.
>>rentagerman is also a reaction to the high unemployment rate here in germany. germans have been already rented out for real. and the official german statale agency for work wants to collaborate.(!!!)
>
>
> The site seems to be a very effective social commentary, then. I'd say that makes it worthy of being in the artbase.
I agree that in light of this explanation it is interesting social
commentary but I'm not sure about its effectiveness. The unemployment
thing makes for an interesting angle but I would rather have gotten that
from the work itself without the artist having to state it.
Don't be offended Johannes, it's just constructive criticism. We're not
that good at reading non-explicit references to German social situations
into artwork. For instance the unemployment issue. There's nothing in
the work or in the Artbase description that gives us 'outsiders' any
reason to assume that Germans are renting themselves out because they
can't get work.
Pall
>
> - Rob.
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
–
_______________________________
Pall Thayer
artist/teacher
http://www.this.is/pallit
http://pallit.lhi.is/panse
Lorna
http://www.this.is/lorna
_______________________________
johannes et al:
hello there. i'm just going to drop a quick note into this discussion. i don't want to get into a heavy back and forth, but i do think a significant point is being missed.
rent-a-negro.com received international press upon its release, and therefore it is very likely that johannes had heard of it prior to creating his "rent a german" site.
what is more telling that he was aware of my work, however, is the fact that he took the concept, layout, structure, but most telling- even some of the *exact language* from my site.
this is not a matter of similarity. the commonalities are too identical to be dismissed as "borrowed" or "inspired."
i'm not interested in a he-said/she-said with johannes, the sites speak for themselves.
yet, i do find myself wanting the arts community to honor those artists who create powerful work in the original form. for example, i once performed "cut piece" by yoko ono. this is one of the most potent works of performance i've ever done. even though i made two changes on the nites of my performance (for my saftey and for an aesthetic impact) the work is still clearly hers. i would never ever even consider performing this work or a work like this without crediting the original artist.
perhaps johannes will credit rent-a-negro.com on his site. since he's obviously taken much of his site from there.
for the record, i checked all of my email files (which i keep diligently) and have no record of johannes' claimed attempted contact. i find his suggestion that i should go cry in my milk not only adolescent, but irreverant to say to the artist whose work you obviously cribbed. you're welcome, by the way. much congratulations on your success. i'll pass on the offer to collaborate.
when i find people claiming others art ideas as their own (not only mine, but anyone's) i find it imperative that we hold up the orignial (and usually more effective) source. we all work hard as artists. we should support each other in this sometimes challenging field, not undermine our accomplishments through blatant "appropriation" (a nice euphamism).
best to all of you,
and thanks to rhizome for this important discussion.
damali
ps: i tend to get pretty worn out by web-discussions, so this may be the only post i make.
There's nothing in
the work or in the Artbase description that gives us 'outsiders' any
reason to assume that Germans are renting themselves out because they
can't get work.
Pall
–>
..i received lot of emails from germans, who want to rent themselves out. From philosophy professors to unemployed people. Rentagerman is acting like a pure business company
(Now it gets in a way official, because of the interest of the statale work agency, and rentagerman will continue to act like a
Real company.)
Rentagerman will continue to act like a real company and is searching for other collaboration in
The social sector here in germany (youth unemployment institutions etc.).
I think it is a sign (zeichen- don´t know the english word now, sorry) for the situation in germany, That the unemployment agency is so desperated with the job situation, that they wanna collaborate with Rentagerman.de
The next step is to install showrooms in real space, which look like car rental agencies, but rent germans. There i hope for interesting reactions from the public, too. There are offers from german institutions/gallerys, to do this in germany, but it does not really Make a sense for me, to rent out germans in germany.
Xjohannes blank.
Hi Damali,
Could you be more specific re: these similarities? From a quick perusal
of both sites, it's not obvious that the sites are that similar, except
for concept of course.
For example, I don't see how the layout is similar. The rent-a-negro
site has a two-column layout, where the rent-a-german site has three.
Do you mean the 'RENT NOW!' language? That seems like it could be a
coincidence IMO.
Take care,
On Apr 6, 2005, at 11:35 AM, damali ayo wrote:
> what is more telling that he was aware of my work, however, is the
> fact that he took the concept, layout, structure, but most telling-
> even some of the *exact language* from my site.
===
<twhid>http://www.mteww.com</twhid>
===
t.whid-
i'm not sure who this is, you didn't sign your email. my apologies if
i don't recognize your handle.
i was going to do a point-by-point comparison of the two sites but 1)
that started to make me nauseous and 2) i hate web-discussions and
didn't want the chat to go on forever and ever, nit-picking detail
after detail.
besides the obvious concept and execution in web-site format, it
doesn't take long to see that some of his language is mine with just
a few changes, the layout issues meaning the sections that are
featured, the satisfied customer comments, the presentation of fees,
etc. this isn't to say he hasn't made innovative additions. it's
has more graphics, and i quite like the photos, and the send-in your
own photo component.
i know there are other take-offs of my site out there. there was a
rental zine produced, even a band that did a "rent a homo" song. what
fun! the zine credited me. the song, for all i know, may or may not
have anything to do with my work. i'm not so arrogant to think i am
the "mother of all rent-a-person projects." i am thrilled to inspire
other artists as they have inspired me. but i'm also big on giving
credit where credit is due. perhaps this is expecting too much.
at the end of the day, it's all part of the risk we take as artists.
though i sometimes have unrealistically high expectations for us as a
group, i'm willing to accept the quirks that come with the territory.
peace to all,
damali
ps. sorry for the typos in my last post, i hate it when i do that.
Who Cares…
On 4/6/05 11:35 AM, "damali ayo" <[email protected]> wrote:
> johannes et al:
>
> hello there. i'm just going to drop a quick note into this discussion. i don't
> want to get into a heavy back and forth, but i do think a significant point is
> being missed.
>
> rent-a-negro.com received international press upon its release, and therefore
> it is very likely that johannes had heard of it prior to creating his "rent a
> german" site.
>
> what is more telling that he was aware of my work, however, is the fact that
> he took the concept, layout, structure, but most telling- even some of the
> *exact language* from my site.
>
> this is not a matter of similarity. the commonalities are too identical to be
> dismissed as "borrowed" or "inspired."
>
> i'm not interested in a he-said/she-said with johannes, the sites speak for
> themselves.
>
> yet, i do find myself wanting the arts community to honor those artists who
> create powerful work in the original form. for example, i once performed "cut
> piece" by yoko ono. this is one of the most potent works of performance i've
> ever done. even though i made two changes on the nites of my performance (for
> my saftey and for an aesthetic impact) the work is still clearly hers. i would
> never ever even consider performing this work or a work like this without
> crediting the original artist.
>
> perhaps johannes will credit rent-a-negro.com on his site. since he's
> obviously taken much of his site from there.
>
> for the record, i checked all of my email files (which i keep diligently) and
> have no record of johannes' claimed attempted contact. i find his suggestion
> that i should go cry in my milk not only adolescent, but irreverant to say to
> the artist whose work you obviously cribbed. you're welcome, by the way. much
> congratulations on your success. i'll pass on the offer to collaborate.
>
> when i find people claiming others art ideas as their own (not only mine, but
> anyone's) i find it imperative that we hold up the orignial (and usually more
> effective) source. we all work hard as artists. we should support each other
> in this sometimes challenging field, not undermine our accomplishments through
> blatant "appropriation" (a nice euphamism).
>
> best to all of you,
> and thanks to rhizome for this important discussion.
>
> damali
>
> ps: i tend to get pretty worn out by web-discussions, so this may be the only
> post i make.
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
–
Lee Wells
Brooklyn, NY 11222
http://www.leewells.org
917 723 2524
….i'm also
> big on giving
> credit where credit is due. perhaps this is
> expecting too much.
welcome to the internet, damali
bliss
lewis lacook
************************************************
— damali ayo <[email protected]> wrote:
> t.whid-
>
> i'm not sure who this is, you didn't sign your
> email. my apologies if
> i don't recognize your handle.
>
> i was going to do a point-by-point comparison of the
> two sites but 1)
> that started to make me nauseous and 2) i hate
> web-discussions and
> didn't want the chat to go on forever and ever,
> nit-picking detail
> after detail.
>
> besides the obvious concept and execution in
> web-site format, it
> doesn't take long to see that some of his language
> is mine with just
> a few changes, the layout issues meaning the
> sections that are
> featured, the satisfied customer comments, the
> presentation of fees,
> etc. this isn't to say he hasn't made innovative
> additions. it's
> has more graphics, and i quite like the photos, and
> the send-in your
> own photo component.
>
> i know there are other take-offs of my site out
> there. there was a
> rental zine produced, even a band that did a "rent a
> homo" song. what
> fun! the zine credited me. the song, for all i
> know, may or may not
> have anything to do with my work. i'm not so
> arrogant to think i am
> the "mother of all rent-a-person projects." i am
> thrilled to inspire
> other artists as they have inspired me. but i'm also
> big on giving
> credit where credit is due. perhaps this is
> expecting too much.
>
> at the end of the day, it's all part of the risk we
> take as artists.
> though i sometimes have unrealistically high
> expectations for us as a
> group, i'm willing to accept the quirks that come
> with the territory.
>
> peace to all,
>
> damali
> ps. sorry for the typos in my last post, i hate it
> when i do that.
>
>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at
> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
***************************************************************************
Lewis LaCook –>Poet-Programmer|||http://www.lewislacook.com/|||
Web Programmer|||http://www.corporatepa.com/|||
XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog-> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/
Collective Writing Projects–> The Wiki–> http://www.lewislacook.com/wiki/ Appendix M ->http://www.lewislacook.com/AppendixM/
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