Re: inIVA x-space commission

I think the reverse would perhaps be better for me and a good countervail.

So yes as soon as I get enough money I'm going to pursue painting and many
other mediums.


>From: "Pall Thayer" <[email protected]>
>Reply-To: "Pall Thayer" <[email protected]>
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: RHIZOME\_RAW: inIVA x-space commission
>Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 19:20:04 GMT
>
>Why don't we ever see commissions like this:
>The whatever institute of whateverism is inviting submissions from artists
>who
>are new to painting as an artistic medium and whose practice lends itself
>to
>painting either through subject matter or form. The selected artists will
>work with
>a painter to help them realise their commission conceptually and
>technically
>between ….
>
>My point being, what's the difference here? If you want to be an artist who
>paints, you learn to paint, right? If you want to be an artist who uses new
>media,
>you learn the new medium. Having someone else do all the work is never
>going
>to bring the same results.
>
>Pall
>
> > Please circulate to any artists that you think would be interested in
>this
>opportunity:
> >
> > x-space commissions
> > http://www.iniva.org/xspace
> >
> > deadline: 29th November 2002
> >
> > inIVA (The Institute of International Visual Arts) is inviting
>submissions from
>artists who are new to the Internet as an artistic medium and whose
>artistic
>practise lends itself to New Media either through subject matter or form.
>The
>selected artists will work with a web designer to help them realise their
>commission conceptually and technically between January and March 2003.
> >
> > For further information and an application form, email or send an A4 SAE
>to:
> >
> > [email protected]
> >
> > Graham O'Brien
> > inIVA (x-space)
> > 6-8 Standard Place
> > Rivington Street
> > London EC2A 3BE
> > UK
> >
> > **Thanks
> > + If the reader will keep me company I shall be glad.
> > -> post: [email protected]
> > -> questions: [email protected]
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >
> >
>
>–
>Pall Thayer
>vefari / kennari / listamadhur
>Fjolbrautaskolanum vidh Armula
>http://www.this.is/pallit
>
>+ If the reader will keep me company I shall be glad.
>-> post: [email protected]
>-> questions: [email protected]
>-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>+
>Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php




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these sort of calls drive me nuts too.
I decided to have a rant the other week on a studio based in London
that was offering a rather nice bursary to digital artists. Dream brief, no
timeframe, no agenda, no 'finished' project that you hand over - just
money to 'buy' time and materials to explore ideas
BUT
only london artists could apply.
I sent them a three page rant on how they had totally misunderstood the
whole 'freedom of movement' potential of working digitally, translocal
practice on the net, the difficulties and rarity of gaining funding for
individual [net] artists and it was totally misplaced to to insist the artist
be based in a specific physical location blah blah blah
I actually got back a rather nice calm email but saying they weren't
happy about this either but the funding was provided by a specific
london based organization and had made this a prerequisite of the
brief…maybe if it was successful it could be expanded, try again soon,
etc etc etc
ho hum
Worked out that I could have spent the total money I've paid in
childcare to gain the time to write submission for grants, bursaries and
stipends (that I didn't get) on a whole new computer.
thanks god for

On Fri, 13 Sep 2002, Max Herman wrote:

> So yes as soon as I get enough money I'm going to pursue painting and many
> other mediums.

Try it now. You can start with purely image-based writing
or ink drawings. Money is a dumbass excuse.

`, . ` `k a r e i' ? ' D42

I think my point is being missed. Wouldn't we find it absurd if someone who
didn't know how to paint, who's thing was to come up with ideas of paintings
and have a *real* painter paint them, went around calling himself a painter?
Now let's take it a little further. A sculptor who works with metal
structures. Only, he doesn't know how to weld so he gets someone else to put
it together for him. The welder of course has to point out every now and
then, "Well, this little bit here won't work. The piece won't be structuraly
sound. It'll just fall apart, so we'll have to add a little piece on this
side to hold the whole thing together." The artists idea was flawed. He
would of realized this if he knew anything about welding. So now the
finished artwork isn't quite what the artist had in mind, but close enough,
or not. Next comes this *new media artist*. He's got an excellent idea for a
project but doesn't know how to do it. He just got his modem last week and
managed to download a crack for the trial version of Dreamweaver. He plays
around with it for a couple of days and then decides, "Ah, screw it. My
girlfriends brother is a computer programmer. I'll see if he can help me out
with it." So now, our artist is going to discuss how to make artwork with a
guy who thinks Ingres is a GUI manager for Postgres and that Yves Kline was
a fashion designer. The result is bound to lose most of the artistic focus.
Also, artists have a different way with things. I think we have a certain
way of learning how to use things. A way that opens the medium up to new
possibilities that those who created it never even thought of before. If
we're going to be able to do something remarkable with the medium, we have
to learn enough about it to be able to mold it in our hands like clay. Make
it bend and sway and do whatever we want. When the computer programmers say,
"No, you can't do that." It's our job to show them that you can.

Pall
—– Original Message —–
From: "Jess Loseby" <[email protected]>
To: "Pall Thayer" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: inIVA x-space commission


> these sort of calls drive me nuts too.
> I decided to have a rant the other week on a studio based in London
> that was offering a rather nice bursary to digital artists. Dream brief,
no
> timeframe, no agenda, no 'finished' project that you hand over - just
> money to 'buy' time and materials to explore ideas
> BUT
> only london artists could apply.
> I sent them a three page rant on how they had totally misunderstood the
> whole 'freedom of movement' potential of working digitally, translocal
> practice on the net, the difficulties and rarity of gaining funding for
> individual [net] artists and it was totally misplaced to to insist the
artist
> be based in a specific physical location blah blah blah
> I actually got back a rather nice calm email but saying they weren't
> happy about this either but the funding was provided by a specific
> london based organization and had made this a prerequisite of the
> brief…maybe if it was successful it could be expanded, try again soon,
> etc etc etc
> ho hum
> Worked out that I could have spent the total money I've paid in
> childcare to gain the time to write submission for grants, bursaries and
> stipends (that I didn't get) on a whole new computer.
> thanks god for

>From: "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+" <[email protected]>
>To: Max Herman <[email protected]>
>CC: <[email protected]>, <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: RHIZOME\_RAW: inIVA x-space commission
>Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 17:03:08 -0700 (PDT)
>
>On Fri, 13 Sep 2002, Max Herman wrote:
>
> > So yes as soon as I get enough money I'm going to pursue painting and
>many
> > other mediums.
>
> Try it now. You can start with purely image-based writing
> or ink drawings. Money is a dumbass excuse.
>
>`, . ` `k a r e i' ? ' D42




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We have all gotten help along the way, just some more than others.
Cheers
Lee

on 9/15/02 12:59 PM, Pall Thayer at [email protected] wrote:

> I think my point is being missed. Wouldn't we find it absurd if someone who
> didn't know how to paint, who's thing was to come up with ideas of paintings
> and have a *real* painter paint them, went around calling himself a painter?
> Now let's take it a little further. A sculptor who works with metal
> structures. Only, he doesn't know how to weld so he gets someone else to put
> it together for him. The welder of course has to point out every now and
> then, "Well, this little bit here won't work. The piece won't be structuraly
> sound. It'll just fall apart, so we'll have to add a little piece on this
> side to hold the whole thing together." The artists idea was flawed. He
> would of realized this if he knew anything about welding. So now the
> finished artwork isn't quite what the artist had in mind, but close enough,
> or not. Next comes this *new media artist*. He's got an excellent idea for a
> project but doesn't know how to do it. He just got his modem last week and
> managed to download a crack for the trial version of Dreamweaver. He plays
> around with it for a couple of days and then decides, "Ah, screw it. My
> girlfriends brother is a computer programmer. I'll see if he can help me out
> with it." So now, our artist is going to discuss how to make artwork with a
> guy who thinks Ingres is a GUI manager for Postgres and that Yves Kline was
> a fashion designer. The result is bound to lose most of the artistic focus.
> Also, artists have a different way with things. I think we have a certain
> way of learning how to use things. A way that opens the medium up to new
> possibilities that those who created it never even thought of before. If
> we're going to be able to do something remarkable with the medium, we have
> to learn enough about it to be able to mold it in our hands like clay. Make
> it bend and sway and do whatever we want. When the computer programmers say,
> "No, you can't do that." It's our job to show them that you can.
>
> Pall
> —– Original Message —–
> From: "Jess Loseby" <[email protected]>
> To: "Pall Thayer" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 4:39 PM
> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: inIVA x-space commission
>
>
>> these sort of calls drive me nuts too.
>> I decided to have a rant the other week on a studio based in London
>> that was offering a rather nice bursary to digital artists. Dream brief,
> no
>> timeframe, no agenda, no 'finished' project that you hand over - just
>> money to 'buy' time and materials to explore ideas
>> BUT
>> only london artists could apply.
>> I sent them a three page rant on how they had totally misunderstood the
>> whole 'freedom of movement' potential of working digitally, translocal
>> practice on the net, the difficulties and rarity of gaining funding for
>> individual [net] artists and it was totally misplaced to to insist the
> artist
>> be based in a specific physical location blah blah blah
>> I actually got back a rather nice calm email but saying they weren't
>> happy about this either but the funding was provided by a specific
>> london based organization and had made this a prerequisite of the
>> brief…maybe if it was successful it could be expanded, try again soon,
>> etc etc etc
>> ho hum
>> Worked out that I could have spent the total money I've paid in
>> childcare to gain the time to write submission for grants, bursaries and
>> stipends (that I didn't get) on a whole new computer.
>> thanks god for

dont waste your time i am already master of that ha ha
just you wate ha and seem ha a surprise from the
rookie cookie coming soon ha ha ha ah
— Max Herman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+"
> <[email protected]>
> >To: Max Herman <[email protected]>
> >CC: <[email protected]>, <[email protected]>
> >Subject: Re: RHIZOME\_RAW: inIVA x-space commission
> >Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 17:03:08 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >On Fri, 13 Sep 2002, Max Herman wrote:
> >
> > > So yes as soon as I get enough money I'm going
> to pursue painting and
> >many
> > > other mediums.
> >
> > Try it now. You can start with purely
> image-based writing
> > or ink drawings. Money is a dumbass excuse.
> >
> >`, . ` `k a r e i' ? ' D42
>
>
>
>
>
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> Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN
> Hotmail.
> http://www.hotmail.com
>
> + If the reader will keep me company I shall be
> glad.
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at
http://rhizome.org/info/29.php


=====


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also prevent you from being one"



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> I think my point is being missed.
No I did get you point (and the painter analogy was v. funny) although I
thought you were focusing more on the funding to transform one thing
into another ("…whose practice lends itself to painting either through
subject matter or form") rather than the 'help' to do this.I was just adding
that this kind of misguided call is pretty typical (particularly amongst uk
funding bodies) who are trying to be 'hip' by funding new media -
unfortunatly they rarely fund anything that could actually be useful to
most net artists because they tie their fund up is such specific ill-
informed guidelines, such as funding painters to transform into internet
artists (why should should a artists ability in traditional forms of art
make it 'compatible' with working digitally - what form of art isn't
compatable, why do you have to come from a fine art backgound
anyway???) or tieing internet artists to a specific geographical location
etc etc In terms of 'help' to get started I don't have the same problem
with this apart from the fact that help to learn html, java, flash etc etc is
all there and mostly free on the net anyway. You can get (very) basic
web design training courses free or at subsidized rates at most tech
colleges in the uk anyway, plus if you're not in work they will give you
travel expenses and/or funding to attend too. Why waste valuable
funding opps like inIVA on reinventing the wheel? Why not give it to
artists who are actually making the art and are waste half their time
trying to either get funding (or taking crap web design jobs to pay their
bills) …like me, for example:-) jess.

o
/^ rssgallery.com
][

> If we're going to be able to do something
> remarkable with the medium, we have
> to learn enough about it to be able to
> mold it in our hands like clay.


Pall, I agree with your sentiment that digital artists ought to know how
to use their computers and I think that it's really cool whenever a
digital artist is also a kick-ass programmer, like Golan Levin or John
Klima. I also initially read the commission with some disdain before I
realized that the underlying concept was not only quite sound, but in
principle a great idea (although I would not limit the applicants to the
technologically clueless as the commission appears to do).

You and the other critics of the commission are ignoring the fact that
tons and tons of artists have assistants and fabricators to do a great
deal of their specialized tasks. Richard Serra probably can't run a
cor-ten steel cutter, and I doubt Jasper Johns has stretched a canvas in
decades. Jeff Koons can't cast porcelain, Matthew Barney can't load a 35
mm film camera, etc. etc. Stanley Kubrick knew a lot about filmmaking,
but he didn't know how to paint a 100 foot wide backdrop of the Serengti
- he had to have someone else do that for him.

Wanna go back further? Okay - do you think Michaelangelo did all of the
backbreaking work mixing the plaster for his Sistene Chapel frescoes, or
did he have pretty young boys mixing it for him and keeping him
constantly supplied with fresh wet stuff? Rembrandt only painted small
portions of most of the paintings that bear his signature, the rest
being done by trained assistants. Van Gogh bought his paint pre-made in
tubes and for many of his paintings he simply squeezed it right from the
tube onto the canvas, using the colors the folks at the paint factory
chose. I doubt Matisse knew how to stain glass, but he knew how to make
nice designs for stained glass windows - and he knew the address of the
master glazers. Etc etc.

I'm not saying I like all of these artists' work, I'm just saying that
having other people assist in the fabrication of your artwork is hardly
a new thing nor should we think of it as a bad thing. The idea that
every molecule and byte of a work of art ought to bear solely the
fingerprints of the singular artist-genius is, in my opinion, a worse
thing.

Although artists have been getting people to help them for centuries,
today in particular I think we live in the era of the
"artist-as-producer". The greatest artworks of the last century were (in
my opinion) almost all films. Most of them were made by giant production
teams, often times led by a producer or director who lacked most of the
skills necessary to make all of the tiny components but who had the
vision to lead the team to make a great work of art.

While there are great independently produced films, some made entirely
by a single person, there is no way most of the greatest films any of us
might think of could ever have been made unless somebody with a vision
hired a bunch of flunkies to handle the technical details. It's
impossible for one person to specialize in a hundred things and be good
at all of them.

With digital artworks, the individual-artist-who-does-all-the-work model
has the potential to get even more diluted. Let's say someday a 21st
century artist wants to make a immersive virtual world based on
something they've experienced in their dreams. Will this future digital
artist need to know how to write good dialogue AND how to make a
real-time-3D renderer AND how to program a distributed networked virtual
environment AND how to blueprint the architecture of the world AND how
to write the soundtrack AND how to direct the voice actors AND how to
program Artificial Intelligence and a thousand other technical and
artistic skills? I hope not!

-Cf

[christopher eli fahey]
art: http://www.graphpaper.com
sci: http://www.askrom.com
biz: http://www.behaviordesign.com