Natalie

>Also Judson, I still have a great photo of NM

i bet you have collected all of us. You should make a rhizome
directory. go to Max's to see all the folks you've been talking to.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PLASMA STUDII

(on-line press kit)
http://plasmastudii.org

223 E 10th Street
PMB 130
New York, NY 10003

why do you want my OPINION, it does not matter anyway what i think online off line protest……………. progress………. danger….. no though you may be monitored as if you are not already it seems that Bush and friends are having second thoughts. BBC released polls at 51/49 for war and against. If he wants to have a chance at winning the election 04 he will not go to war. it will just make him look greedy and power hunger-y. it may in fact cause a world war with Russia investments on the line. this is big money and massive power shifting everyone has to walk on eggshells protesting net artists? when are you an artist or an activist or are you both? i say both.so go for it but i would also write your senate and so forth as well i forgot who said it but someone said i hate to see the internet filled with propaganda like world war two, maybe virillio? all make sure and get back to you on that. just because i am not for Bushs iraq war does not mean i am a terrorist. I hope that common sense would prevail but with so much paranoia who can tell.
. Max Herman wrote:eggshell sInternetIraq




"The things that make you a person

also prevent you from being one"




———————————
Do You Yahoo!?
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I was asking what you think because you have mentioned infowar and
imperialism rules and stuff. Do you really think it is incumbent for
artists to give up politics-wise and just let it all go as it may?

I don't know if net art and regular art are quiet about the Iraq invasion
because it's inevitable, desirable, not our concern, or that we just aren't
organized enough, and don't know a good way to protest it.

Also, there's the danger of being killed or tortured for speaking against
the Bush Administration in any effectual way.

Plus the idea that Saddam sucks and it is a good thing to invade. You don't
hear internet art saying that either.

Frankly if artists aren't involved then there is obviously nothing to slow
down the military-industrial agenda as it continues onward.

It is a bothersome feeling to me that the US administration is about to do
something terrible, and not even artists will speak out because they are
afraid of reprisals. I mean, isn't it precisely when reprisals are
threatened that we should back down the least?

Plus make no mistake, this invasion if it does occur will determine the
future very much so. Democrats in the US Congress don't seem much against
it either, so why artists should care I can't say. I think Nader was on CNN
Crossfire, I didn't see it, but he might not favor an attack I imagine.

I think Bush wants this war right away because he's the C-in-C but only for
a bit. Once the war gets started, then things will follow along the course
he wants–no alternative to global corporate fascism. Already we have
virtually no alternative. All the alternatives are of course constantly
being ignored or made impossible by effective conservatives across the
world.

I think the main reason to invade is to boost the stock market. (See
Forbes.com "How war with Iraq will change the world.") In that case,
nothing is more important than the stock market (a vision of the future
brought to us by GE and other bluechips), Empire. Go to war for Disney and
Freedom.

Besides, why would they be monitoring me? Everyone knows G2K is bullshit,
and artists can't change public opinion, and everything is a simulation, or
whatever. G2K doesn't affect anyone, all the real people know it's a barrel
of doodoo. And they keep it off the lists! Good real people.

I saw a dude from the American Enterprise Institute on Bill Moyers' show
about the Earth Summit on Sustainable Development, and he (AEI guy) called
the free market "one of the greatest achievements we have," remarkable
wording there, and said that "50 years ago the Southern US–where I'm
from–was poor, and now we're rich." Yet the AEI is full of psychotics.
Real people know that markets HAVE to be regulated or they wreak
destruction. Laws against slavery for example; if it was all free market
then slavery would be legal still. The French Revolution was about the
people's right to regulate markets. USA rev too. AEI guy doesn't mention
that of course. Why would he? There's no money in it, just the nauseating
misery of facing a hopeless mass of ignorant, violent humans brimming over
like Chernobyl water.

I think the free marketeers believe some people are worth money, and some
are not, and those not should starve or be exterminated if they make trouble
while they starve. Darwinism, annihilationism, survivalism, whatever. It's
what they believe, psycho as it may sound to anyone who is not mentally
paralyzed.

We've also been pushed toward needing war to save the stock market by a long
period of erosion in all forms of non-stock-market problem-solving.

Imperialist freemarketeers call it ratcheting. What bugs me about Negri and
Hardt is they say "Empire is now all there is, but we can create something
else." That seems weak to me. Either way, they need to come to grips with
G2K now that they are famous and influential. I wonder what they'd say, or
if they ever will hear of it.

World leaders decided long ago that democracies are not governable (Zbigniew
Brzezinski), and are basically converting us to a non-democratic system. Of
course we all still have to think it's democracy, that's the kicker. If
they came right out and said "Hey let's go fascist" they would fail, because
people are emotionally attached to democracy still and can't function
without at least a convincing fake version to assuage their fears.

By 2025 there won't be any water in the Mideast, so everyone will be a
terrorist seeking water. Instead of figuring out ways to save water, we are
preparing to kill all the waterless terrorists with our fabulous market and
the weapons it provides via sales taxes. Maybe.

There's also the possibility that the US will sink into economic depression
if we don't invade and make sure all that oil will go to US companies (i.e.
restore investor confidence in US stocks).

Only a transformation of world consciousness can avert the express elevator
to hell on earth (if not in space), and only g2k can achieve this.

But everyone hates g2k 'cause I'm a crazy premature ejaculator who hasn't
made any art or said anything or written anything. Ask around if you don't
believe me.

Isn't that special?




>From: "Max Herman" <[email protected]>
>Reply-To: "Max Herman" <[email protected]>
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: Natalie
>Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:48:03 -0500
>
>
>
>Hey Natalie, what do you think about net artists protesting the war on Iraq
>and asking for a delay? Do you feel that is too dangerous?
>
>Also Judson, I still have a great photo of NM at
>www.geocities.com/genius-2000/natalie.JPG
>
>Coco, are you on this list? Do you feel it is too dangerous?
>
>Also, USDAT, are you on this list, and do you think it is too dangerous for
>your group to call for a delay on the invasion of Iraq?
>
>I just want to get a handle on the vibe out there.
>
>I was also thinking about G2K infomercials. Like in the Beastie Boys song,
>"Everybody actin' like they're in a commercial
>Actin' like life is a big commercial."
>
>Max
>
>++
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>
>+ If the reader will keep me company I shall be glad.
>-> post: [email protected]
>-> questions: [email protected]
>-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>+
>Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php




_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

i think you mis-understood me…. by no means was i saying that the artist net or other should be a pacificist. (remember not being pollitical is being pollitical.) Or that they are to un-organized to do anything either. but there is a fine line between being an activist and an artist, finding a balance between both is important. and using your tools for good are as well, with so much choas in public thought it would be easy to create an piece rather wood block poster wheat pasted all over your city or a net.site that causes even more confusion and because we are not being informed properlly the chances of miscommunicated seem very high. i am worried only about honesty and not hasty fanaticsim. The thing that made all the horror of World War 2 possiable was confusion and mis- information spread to the people. That is why those posters are worth so much now,( John Heartfield ) propoganda!!!!! hey what do you know i found it ———–"But what i can't stand on the internet is the propaganda, the hype. The internet is, in reality, decended from ARPAnet, once again a military system, that has been civilized————thus, i have a fierce oppostion to propaganda, prehaps becuase i lived WW2 and i wont stand for propaganda wheather industrail, political, or religious!"———Virilio ———- when talking about neo liberalism, i tend to agree with Susan Goerge.( www.globalexchange.org/economy/econ101/neoliberalism.html ) The thing that concerns me the most is the possiabillty of world war. i am against the war with iraq, i think that there is too much preasure on to many things for it not to esculate into pandamonium.—————–I think the free marketeers believe some people are worth money, and some are not, and those not should starve or be exterminated if they make trouble while they starve. Darwinism, annihilationism, survivalism, whatever. It's what they believe, psycho as it may sound to anyone who is not mentallyparalyzed. It started at the wansee conference that is where humans become industrailized all this is logic. mass graves suffication in boxes exterminate! exterminate! human worth and value marketed….. brian transplants new bodies for the right money so on so on. I like the memesis statement "humanity has co evolved with its artifacts genes that are not able to cope with this reality will not survive the next millinuim." These things are real you can not stop progress you can only slow it down or adapt with variables. these variables are very important. individual purchase power is a weapon….. maybe? i do not think that things will turn out the way we expect it or predict economically. you should check out BBC.

Offlist is OK, not trying to be evil.

Max


>From: natalie myers

>To: Max Herman
>Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Natalie
>Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 15:42:42 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>
> i will get back to you on this i have to work tonight but i will be
>thinking maybe probably respond off list.
>Max Herman wrote:
>
>I was asking what you think because you have mentioned infowar and
>imperialism rules and stuff. Do you really think it is incumbent for
>artists to give up politics-wise and just let it all go as it may?
>I don't know if net art and regular art are quiet about the Iraq invasion
>because it's inevitable, desirable, not our concern, or that we just aren't
>organized enough, and don't know a good way to protest it.
>
>Also, there's the danger of being killed or tortured for speaking against
>the Bush Administration in any effectual way.
>
>Plus the idea that Saddam sucks and it is a good thing to invade. You don't
>hear internet art saying that either.
>
>Frankly if artists aren't involved then there is obviously nothing to slow
>down the military-industrial agenda as it continues onward.
>
>It is a bothersome feeling to me that the US administration is about to do
>something terrible, and not even artists will speak out because they are
>afraid of reprisals. I mean, isn't it precisely when reprisals are
>threatened that we should back down the least?
>
>Plus make no mistake, this invasion if it does occur will determine the
>future very much so. Democrats in the US Congress don't seem much against
>it either, so why artists should care I can't say. I think Nader was on CNN
>Crossfire, I didn't see it, but he might not favor an attack I imagine.
>
>I think Bush wants this war right away because he's the C-in-C but only for
>a bit. Once the war gets started, then things will follow along the course
>he wants–no alternative to global corporate fascism. Already we have
>virtually no alternative. All the alternatives are of course constantly
>being ignored or made impossible by effective conservatives across the
>world.
>
>I think the main reason to invade is to boost the stock market. (See
>Forbes.com "How war with Iraq will change the world.") In that case,
>nothing is more important than the stock market (a vision of the future
>brought to us by GE and other bluechips), Empire. Go to war for Disney and
>Freedom.
>
>Besides, why would they be monitoring me? Everyone knows G2K is bullshit,
>and artists can't change public opinion, and everything is a simulation, or
>whatever. G2K doesn't affect anyone, all the real people know it's a barrel
>of doodoo. And they keep it off the lists! Good real people.
>
>I saw a dude from the American Enterprise Institute on Bill Moyers' show
>about the Earth Summit on Sustainable Development, and he (AEI guy) called
>the free market "one of the greatest achievements we have," remarkable
>wording there, and said that "50 years ago the Southern US–where I'm
>from–was poor, and now we're rich." Yet the AEI is full of psychotics.
>Real people know that markets HAVE to be regulated or they wreak
>destruction. Laws against slavery for example; if it was all free market
>then slavery would be legal still. The French Revolution was about the
>people's right to regulate markets. USA rev too. AEI guy doesn't mention
>that of course. Why would he? There's no money in it, just the nauseating
>misery of facing a hopeless mass of ignorant, violent humans brimming over
>like Chernobyl water.
>
>I think the free marketeers believe some people are worth money, and some
>are not, and those not should starve or be exterminated if they make
>trouble
>while they starve. Darwinism, annihilationism, survivalism, whatever. It's
>what they believe, psycho as it may sound to anyone who is not mentally
>paralyzed.
>
>We've also been pushed toward needing war to save the stock market by a
>long
>period of erosion in all forms of non-stock-market problem-solving.
>
>Imperialist freemarketeers call it ratcheting. What bugs me about Negri and
>Hardt is they say "Empire is now all there is, but we can create something
>else." That seems weak to me. Either way, they need to come to grips with
>G2K now that they are famous and influential. I wonder what they'd say, or
>if they ever will hear of it.
>
>World leaders decided long ago that democracies are not governable
>(Zbigniew
>Brzezinski), and are basically converting us to a non-democratic system. Of
>course we all still have to think it's democracy, that's the kicker. If
>they came right out and said "Hey let's go fascist" they would fail,
>because
>people are emotionally attached to democracy still and can't function
>without at least a convincing fake version to assuage their fears.
>
>By 2025 there won't be any water in the Mideast, so everyone will be a
>terrorist seeking water. Instead of figuring out ways to save water, we are
>preparing to kill all the waterless terrorists with our fabulous market and
>the weapons it provides via sales taxes. Maybe.
>
>There's also the possibility that the US will sink into economic depression
>if we don't invade and make sure all that oil will go to US companies (i.e.
>restore investor confidence in US stocks).
>
>Only a transformation of world consciousness can avert the express elevator
>to hell on earth (if not in space), and only g2k can achieve this.
>
>But everyone hates g2k 'cause I'm a crazy premature ejaculator who hasn't
>made any art or said anything or written anything. Ask around if you don't
>believe me.
>
>Isn't that special?
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Max Herman"
> >Reply-To: "Max Herman"
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: Natalie
> >Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:48:03 -0500
> >
> >
> >
> >Hey Natalie, what do you think about net artists protesting the war on
>Iraq
> >and asking for a delay? Do you feel that is too dangerous?
> >
> >Also Judson, I still have a great photo of NM at
> >www.geocities.com/genius-2000/natalie.JPG
> >
> >Coco, are you on this list? Do you feel it is too dangerous?
> >
> >Also, USDAT, are you on this list, and do you think it is too dangerous
>for
> >your group to call for a delay on the invasion of Iraq?
> >
> >I just want to get a handle on the vibe out there.
> >
> >I was also thinking about G2K infomercials. Like in the Beastie Boys
>song,
> >"Everybody actin' like they're in a commercial
> >Actin' like life is a big commercial."
> >
> >Max
> >
> >++
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
> >
> >+ If the reader will keep me company I shall be glad.
> >-> post: [email protected]
> >-> questions: [email protected]
> >-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> >+
> >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> >Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
>http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>
>+ If the reader will keep me company I shall be glad.
>-> post: [email protected]
>-> questions: [email protected]
>-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>+
>Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
>
>"The things that make you a person
>
> also prevent you from being one"
>
>
>
>
>———————————
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes




_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com





"The things that make you a person

also prevent you from being one"




———————————
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

>From: natalie myers <[email protected]>
>Reply-To: natalie myers <[email protected]>
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Natalie
>Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:03:21 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>i think you mis-understood me…. by no means was i saying that the artist
>net or other should be a pacificist. (remember not being pollitical is
>being pollitical.)

++I only wondered if you had strong opinions about imperialism and infowar,
and if they related to the proposed Bush invasion of Iraq.

Or that they are to un-organized to do anything either. but there is a fine
line between being an activist and an artist, finding a balance between both
is important. and using your tools for good are as well, with so much choas
in public thought it would be easy to create an piece rather wood block
poster wheat pasted all over your city or a net.site that causes even more
confusion and because we are not being informed properlly the chances of
miscommunicated seem very high.

++That's no reason not to try to communicate, rather a basic responsibility
for what you choose to say. Not everything is propaganda. Some stuff is
just basic fact, like how Bush fired the lead scientist of the US climate
change group for saying "we are in hella shit and there's no spin that
spins."

i am worried only about honesty and not hasty fanaticsim.

++I think Bush is a dishonest and hasty fanatic. Going along with his war
is guilt by inaction. No wiggle room.

The thing that made all the horror of World War 2 possiable was confusion
and mis- information spread to the people.

++And a decade-long global depression.

That is why those posters are worth so much now,( John Heartfield )
propoganda!!!!! hey what do you know i found it ———–"But what i can't
stand on the internet !
>is the propaganda, the hype. The internet is, in reality, decended from
>ARPAnet, once again a military system, that has been
>civilized————thus, i have a fierce oppostion to propaganda, prehaps
>becuase i lived WW2 and i wont stand for propaganda wheather industrail,
>political, or religious!"———Virilio ———-

++Virilio needs revision.

when talking about neo liberalism, i tend to agree with Susan Goerge.(
www.globalexchange.org/economy/econ101/neoliberalism.html ) The thing that
concerns me the most is the possiabillty of world war.

++A world of war is more or less guaranteed, but it will be corporations
versus terrorists, not Germany versus England.

i am against the war with iraq, i think that there is too much preasure on
to many things for it not to esculate into pandamonium.

++Which is why Bush wants it, because pandemonium is to his agenda's
advantage.

—————–I think the free marketeers believe some people are worth
money, and some are not, and those not should starve or be exterminated if
they make trouble while they starve. Darwinism, annihilationism,
survivalism, whatever. It's what they believe, psycho as it may sound to
anyone who is not mentallyparalyzed. It st!
>arted at the wansee conference

++Not familiar with the Wansee conference.

that is where humans become industrailized all this is logic. mass graves
suffication in boxes exterminate! exterminate! human worth and value
marketed….. brian transplants new bodies for the right money so on so on.
I like the memesis statement "humanity has co evolved with its artifacts
genes that are not able to cope with this reality will not survive the next
millinuim."

++This world will cease to support human life in 200 years, it won't take a
whole millennium.

These things are real you can not stop progress you can only slow it down or
adapt with variables.

++The idea of linear progess forward or upward is a myth. Propaganda.

these variables are very important. individual purchase power is a
weapon….. maybe?

++Only if enough many individuals coordinate and use their purchase power to
a coordinated end. Isolated individual purchase power is nothing of
importance.

i do not think that things will turn out the way we expect it or predict
economically. you should check out BBC.

++What are they saying?

++Max

++


> > >"Everybody actin' like they're in a commercial
> > >Actin' like life is a big commercial."
> > >
> > >Max
> > >
> > >++




_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx