Pall Thayer
Since the beginning
Works in Greenwich, Connecticut United States of America

PORTFOLIO (10)
BIO
Pall Thayer is an artist.

http://pallthayer.dyndns.org
Discussions (768) Opportunities (2) Events (4) Jobs (0)
DISCUSSION

ISJS Live


The Intercontinental Spontaneous Jam Session will be on exhibit at Gallery Rif on the Reykjavik Cultural Night Out, August 17th from 2pm till midnight GMT. So point your browser to http://www.this.is/pallit/isjs It's more fun when there are lots of people on at once. If you happen to be in the Reykjavik area, stop by.

DISCUSSION

Re:


>
No

DISCUSSION

Re: Re: Re: The Artist speaking of his Brushes etc and other stuff


Hinn 13.08.2002 kl. 14:55 ritadhi Ivan Pope:

>
>>
>> Neil Jenkins <neil@devoid.co.uk>
>>
>> Keywords:
>>
>> Pall Thayer wrote:
>>
>>> ...we have alot of people who are good coders and bad artists and good
> artists but bad coders....
>>
>> what i want to see is bad coders and bad artists combined :)
>
> That's nothing, I once met a bad coder WHO WASN'T EVEN TRYING TO BE AN
> ARTIST

I've met lots of really bad artists who don't even know what a coder is.

Pall
>
> Ivan
>
> + distance equals rate times time
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> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
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>
>
_____________________________________
Pall Thayer
myndlistamadhur/kennari
artist/teacher
Fjolbrautaskolanum vidh Armula (www.fa.is)
http://www.this.is/pallit
_____________________________________

DISCUSSION

Re: The Artist speaking of his Brushes etc and other stuff


So, if I go out in the mornings and collect rosebuds and dandelions and
scan them in to use for colors in Flash, can I still be 6RC?

Seriously, what the Flash debate comes down to (and I think I said this
before, about 3 or 4 years ago) is the fact that there is no such thing
as an "easy" medium. There are alot of people out there doing Flash
stuff because Flash is so "easy" to use. But unless they spend time to
"really" learn the medium, what they do is never going to be great. Also
we have alot of people who are good coders and bad artists and good
artists but bad coders. Unless they can become both, what they do is
most likely going to be rather insignificant. But again, Flash is a good
medium that has a lot to offer and I think shunning it is antiproductive
to the net art community.

Pall

Hinn 10.08.2002 kl. 23:54 ritadhi Jess Loseby:

> hello,
> just thought i'd stop by and have my usual moan...
> stop me if if you've heard it before..er, like the last 20 time we
> debated
> the rules..:-)
> i tend to think the rules as a loose general guide-line or an ideal can=

> be
> good thing for some (although i also kind of think one point of being an
> artist is to break any possible rule that's going but that's by the
> by..) I
> also think that if you can follow them and produce the kind of work that
> eryk is at the moment then its got to be a good thing for some artists
> BUT
>
> why do we always have to slid so quickly into "flash is corporate,
> crappy, obvious crap" discussion..
> firstly, if you have a programming background, lovely! - enjoy the
> coding
> guys, there's little doubt about the freedom it gives you. But flash
> makes
> the net accessible to the many artists who haven't got the
> time/money/inclination to spend god knows how long learning another
> language when they they have a pretty user-friendly one that means
> they can play with artistic ideas rather than programming ones straight
> away.
>
> Secondly, when I was creating textiles long ago, there used to be these
> boring unending debates about useing 'natural dyes' against ready
> mixed ones. The argument being that ready mixed dyes were for plebs
> who could be arsed to go out there and LEARN the craft, who weren't
> REAL artists because they didn't know the DEEP personal satisfaction
> that came from gathering rosehips at dawn and boiling them down for
> 80 hours to produce the EXACT shade of pink for their ART. Same
> goes with this debate. Flash is seen as the cheep, commercial, cop-out
> for the lazy guys. YAWN. it's just a kind of pride. Coding takes longer,
> takes longer to learn, is clever... so it HAS to be better,yes?
>
> well, perhaps if it wasn't about art maybe. But whether an artwork
> 'works' as a piece has little to do with the time the artist has taken
> to
> learn, where they learned, or how they did it. You can spend 6 months
> coding a piece and it can still be crap. You can 6 months of a flash
> piece and it can be crap. You can manipulate an image in 20 minutes
> and it can be bloody brilliant. Because artworks have much more about
> them than the tools...it 'works' as a piece of art because of one or
> more
> of a mix of aesthetics, form, content, style, colour (or lack of),
> tone ("),
> agenda, politics, play, text, texture, sound, emotion, reaction(s),
> observation, rebellion etc etc etc (delete or add to taste)
>
> perhaps its the old art and craft divide again. Craft has always be
> about
> the 'skill' of the craftsman, art (arguably) about the 'object'. A
> craftsman
> wouldn't use flash and artist might...? Perhaps it is the same way a
> craftsman would only use the best wood to make a beautiful table
> whereas an artist would make the table out of teabags, matchsticks,
> lego blocks..just about anything if it said and did what the artist
> wanted
> it to.
>
> Macromedia Is shite. I use it all the time and I hate them. I put up
> with it
> with it because it frees me from my fear of code (alien language) and
> lets me explore. I'm working with video at the moment. I just couldn't
> have done with it what I'm doing in flash without another 3 years,
> rather
> more money and a new brain (mine melts at anything above basic
> scripting)
> 'nuff said. I've bored even myself.
> jess. o
> /^ rssgallery.com
> ][
>
>
>
> + vs. every art school ever...
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php3
>
>
_____________________________________
Pall Thayer
myndlistamadhur/kennari
artist/teacher
Fjolbrautaskolanum vidh Armula (www.fa.is)
http://www.this.is/pallit
_____________________________________

DISCUSSION

Re: The Artist speaking of his Brushes


I don't understand why we can't have the CV. At traditional art exhibits
the visitors usually have access to a bunch of information about the
artist and his/her art (frequently it's way too much but it's there none
the less). Also, I agree with qwerty on the Flash. Alot of Flash users
seem to want everything flash look the same. For instance, you gotta
have a "loading" bar. I'll bet a bunch of people delay their movies on
purpose just so everyone can see their cool "loading" bar. But Flash has
a lot to offer. Maybe that's just one of the rules we have to see if we
can break and pull it off.

Otherwise they seem to me like a good, sound set of rules. I think if we
can get a good sized group working along a defined set of guidlines that
everyone agrees with, that might be one of the first true steps forward
for internet based art. At least one that comes from the artists and not
from Macromedia.

Hinn 10.08.2002 kl. 03:55 ritadhi Eryk Salvaggio:

>
>
> Hi Ivan.
>
>
>
> Ivan Pope wrote:
>
>>> Firstly, if I might just say this, whether we agree or disagree, I
>>> love your
>>> submissions because they give us something to talk about on this
>>> generally
>>> sterile list, and I think we could spend a few nights in the bar
>>> together.
>>> And I think the rules are certainly a step in a correct direction.
>>> Anyway ...
>>>
>
> I ordered a Shirley Temple the last time I was in a bar and the
> waitress refused to serve it to me. True story.
>
>
>> Are you here referring to your original rules or these new rules?
>>
>
> Oh these are the same rules. I linked to the archived rule list. Maybe
> this is where I should end this whole email discussion, but I have a
> bowl of cinnamon toast crunch to get through and nowhere to go.
>
>> But rules is rules. Made to
>> be broken.
>
> This is the unspoken rule of the six rules. I need to rewrite them, get=

> them more concrete, I don't know. All that you say about the checklist
> for good art, I think is a great idea. If only we had more of these
> checklists. "Rap-Core? Okay; Not 6RC, move along now." It makes the
> whole art process easier I think, if you can just have a list to look
> at when you're doing it. Paint by Numbers Net.Art, for example. Second,=

> all I was trying to do, really, was identify cliches, as I saw them. If=

> people want to ignore the rules I'm not out to put tanks on their
> borders. And as I have been quick to say, I like a lot of art that
> breaks the rules. Maybe I should be more staunch about it. But I like
> Lia, and JODI especially, even though Lia = Macromedia and JODI =
> "about technology."
>
>
>> I think my main issue is that your rules are like a checklist: do
>> I comply, whoops, 40% of my work is in Flash, better cut that back a
>> bit and
>> scrap the CV. Then I am compliant and will avoid the discursive police.
>>
>
> Oh, I don't know. I seldom bring up the rules unless it is in relation
> to my own work. Maybe if a new piece by someone else is in flagrant
> violation of my six rules I'll mention it; consider it a permanent
> guide to constructive criticism by Eryk Salvaggio, if anyone ever wants=

> it. I also prefer the rules to be looked at as a puzzle to solve, not
> as a checklist. That is to say; an artist might have an idea but wonder=

> how to express such an idea. Then the artist can say "Maybe I will make=

> it 6RC." If they do and it is good, then good for me, because I won't
> be bored by it. In the process they'll maybe discover a technique they
> like for themselves. The rules aren't criticism, not really; they're an=

> invitation to expanding one's horizons. You are assailing me for
> publishing a cook book because you mistake it for a menu.
>
> I don't think artists should be afraid of the discourse police, and I
> don't think they should be afraid of rules. Rules are a tool to make
> things easier. Break them if you want to and if you can pull it off.
> Break them if you don't want to and can't pull it off, for all I care.
> I've dealt with it for a while; at the same time I think it can be
> annoying. If an artist isn't going to make work because of my six rules=

> then I don't know, consider this my apology now, to all of mankind, for=

> all the lost pieces of art I am responsible for.
>
>
>> Im not sure why anarchy and great art are
>> mutually exclusive? Great art is just the art that changes our view of=

>> the
>> world. Anarchy is just an absence of given rules.
>>
>
> But to have "Great Art" you have a checklist yourself things it must
> be; these are rules. I don't like arguing about anarchy- I consider
> myself an anarchosocialist in theory and a typical Green in practice. I=

> mean calling things great or not implies a values judgment and value
> judgments are based on power because one must be in a position of power=

> to make them. Just a thought is all.
>
>
>> I still dont see why you feel that it is a public issue: that you are
>> bored,
>> that you feel it should be like this or like that, so what?
>
> I don't know, why are we talking about it then?
>
>
>> And for the six
>> rules, I mean, are you Chairman Mao? I find your statement that by
>> following
>> the six rules you are making art to be preposterous.
>
> Well I would too, if I ever made that claim I guess I could argue with
> you, but that has never been what I said.
>
>> Whatever else you are
>> doing is in the lap of the gods. I guess my point here is that your six
>> rules are nothing of the sort. They are like the prescriptions of bored
>> busybodies everywhere: dont do this, dont do that, do this, it will
>> all be
>> alright. Sod it, Eryk, dont tell people not to do what people want to
>> do.
>>
>
> Okay.
>
>
>> Write long learned papers regretting the trend towards the attachment
>> of a
>> CV to every bit of work, or the overuse of Flash, make you case where
>> you
>> wish. But to impose rules on us like we are imbiciles, no, please.
>>
>
> Oh that sounds really uninteresting don't you think? Aren't all these
> papers just about forcing out people in a more subtle way? I believe in=

> the new criticism, where the agendas are up front. The six rules
> weren't a high minded way of ostracizing people the way most academic
> texts and criticisms can be.
>
>
>>
>> Well, Id rather you didnt invent rules but engaged in a conversation
>> about
>> what ails you.
>
> That's what happened when I published the rules. That is what we are
> doing.
>
>
>> There is a lot to be said on this subject. But I just find
>> your rules to be banal and barely thought out. Just tossed off. How
>> long did
>> you ponder them?
>
> I guess you have a lot to say about the banal. I've been formulating
> the rules since my net.art resignation in early 2000.
>
>> They vary from the absolutist (dont promote yourself) to
>> the trivial (dont use more than 70% Flash, I mean, where did that come=

>> from,
>> how about 65% or 80%)
>>
>
> That rule has been eliminated for the Exhibition at the University of
> Colorado, date to be announced. It is now "No Flash," pure and simple.
> Also since I revised the thirty percent rule I'm rethinking the rule
> about documentary photos only and allowing for alteration of images one=

> presents. I'll do it later on sometime.
>
> Cheers,
> -e.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> + vs. every art school ever...
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php3
>
>
_____________________________________
Pall Thayer
myndlistamadhur/kennari
artist/teacher
Fjolbrautaskolanum vidh Armula (www.fa.is)
http://www.this.is/pallit
_____________________________________