Michael Szpakowski
Since the beginning
Works in Harlow United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

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DISCUSSION

Re: ---important---------RE: RHIZOME_RAW: Your role in stopping the war against Iraq


Vijay -I guess you've been going to the wrong
demonstrations since the ones I 've been on have been
fantastic multiracial, crossgenerational affairs full
of people who know a good deal more about the history
of the Gulf and British and American imperialism there
than the cynical lies put out by our "leaders".
best
Michael
--- Vijay Pattisapu <disco@junglist.com> wrote:
> Dyske or people in his stance are not being smug.
>
> The anti-war demonstrations I've been attending have
> been painful to be a part of. Idiotic potheads,
> insecure charlatans, and just bored kids in general
> were the kind of speakers and audience at each one.
> We just stand there and listen to drivel even worse
> than our politicians are putting out--nobody knows
> what the fuck they're talking about, and it seems
> that, subconsciously, because they already have a
> conviction, they don't care to know more, or, God
> forbid, listen to the other side's arguments.
>
> They hear that loaded ***word*** "WAR" and lift up
> their posterboards.
>
> The on-campus debates here have been worthless, to
> say the least. Neither side has any kind of
> knowledge of the situation at hand, historical
> knowledge of the situation, patience for clear
> cohesive thought, or even respect enough for the
> other side to speak. The campuswide debate resulted
> in nothing more than a handful of fistfights. Those
> 500,000 don't get anything out of us American idiots
> kicking the shit out of each other, do they?
>
> The protesters that I have seen have done nothing
> but empty out another word-- "DEMONSTRATION." I saw
> nothing but a demonstration of incompetence and
> teenage rebellion.
>
> Now I am just another one of those bored kids who
> goes to these charades. Because I have nothing else
> to do.
>
> Please, everyone, give Dyske the respect enough to
> analyze his arguments enough to give due response
> towards something constructive, as he has touched
> upon important issues that us bored kids have not
> been able to articulate.
>
>
> The worst thing you can do to a movement is assume
> that everyone onboard is in for the right reasons.
>
>
> -Vijay
>
>
> >Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:22:14 -0800 (PST)
> > Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com> RE:
> RHIZOME_RAW: Your role in stopping the war against
> IraqReply-To: Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com>
> >
> >
> ><Let me clarify my position on the war before I go
> on
> > (in order to avoid any
> > confusions). I'm neither for nor against it. I
> > understand both sides of the
> > arguments and they both make sense to me,>
> >well! you clarified your postion, we've avoided any
> >confusion - great - that must be a relief to the
> >parents of the 500,000 kids that have died because
> of
> >sanctions, and the thousands of young soldiers who
> >will die, or to those who will fall under the
> category
> >of 'collateral damage'.
> > What your apparently sophisticated arguments hide
> is
> >a contempt for any sort of real engagement with
> life ,
> >which inevitably means taking moral postions and
> which
> >inevitably means trying to establish the truth of
> >things which you dismiss so loftily.
> >You know - rather Wally Keeler, who at least is
> >passionate and cares, than your smug abstentionism.
> >
> >=====
> >http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
> >
> >__________________________________________________
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> >+
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> out in the
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> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
>
>
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DISCUSSION

Re: ---important---------RE: RHIZOME_RAW: Your role in stopping the war against Iraq


Being UK based I obviously don't know the details of
the problems you're describing - at face value it
certainly seems a questionable decision to exclude
Michael Lerner.
The emphasis here in the UK has been on inclusivenees
- in my town Troskyists, Moslems and Quakers and lots
of others have been working side by side to build
opposition to the war and this is reflected nationally
in the UK ( and I'm not suggesting that the experience
here is somehow 'better' - just that that is what I've
experienced)
However what is most important and perhaps you folks
underestimate it, is the simply enormous impact your
anti war demonstrations had over here - I can't say
how heartened and excited people were by the reports
of the demonstrations a couple of weeks ago.
I always get a bit itchy when people talk about
"antiquated politics" - it's precisely the sort of
phrase that Tony Blair uses here when he wants to
launch another attack on welfare, education or health
provision or Trade Union organisation. If it's old
fashioned to oppose mass killing for the benefit of
the oil industry, to believe that the world can be
changed for the better and that that task requires
conscious organisation then I'm happy to be old
fashioned.
I also think there's a danger of what almost verges on
a kind of snobbery about people who are maybe more
enthusiastic and led by the heart than clued up in
detail about a cause -we all have to atart learning
somewhere and if we're serious about building and
participating in a mass movement, rather than a polite
lobby, against the forthcoming slaughter then I'm for
inclusiveness, for numbers, rather than an entrance
exam.
best
Michael

--- "t.whid" <twhid@mteww.com> wrote:
> i was going to to stay out of this but there has
> been much discomfort
> among the war protestors on the 'leadership' of the
> demonstrations.
>
> see this:
>
http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2002/10/16/protest/
>
> i was at that rally described in the url above and
> the level of the
> speakers was indeed ridiculous. most of the speakers
> looked like
> saturday night live satires.
>
> the organization 'international answer' (see this:
> http://www.internationalanswer.org/) which snagged
> the permits for
> all the demos in washington dc thus far wouldn't let
> the rabbi
> michael lerner (founder of tikkun magazine
> http://www.tikkun.org)
> speak at the latest dc rally as he doesn't fit the
> rest of their
> agenda.
>
> the biggest problem with the antiwar movement thus
> far has been the
> dubious leaders and antiquated politics of some of
> the speakers.
>
> >Vijay -I guess you've been going to the wrong
> >demonstrations since the ones I 've been on have
> been
> >fantastic multiracial, crossgenerational affairs
> full
> >of people who know a good deal more about the
> history
> >of the Gulf and British and American imperialism
> there
> >than the cynical lies put out by our "leaders".
> >best
> >Michael
> >--- Vijay Pattisapu <disco@junglist.com> wrote:
> >> Dyske or people in his stance are not being
> smug.
> >>
> >> The anti-war demonstrations I've been attending
> have
> >> been painful to be a part of. Idiotic potheads,
> >> insecure charlatans, and just bored kids in
> general
> >> were the kind of speakers and audience at each
> one.
> >> We just stand there and listen to drivel even
> worse
> >> than our politicians are putting out--nobody
> knows
> >> what the fuck they're talking about, and it
> seems
> >> that, subconsciously, because they already have
> a
> >> conviction, they don't care to know more, or,
> God
> >> forbid, listen to the other side's arguments.
> >>
> >> They hear that loaded ***word*** "WAR" and lift
> up
> >> their posterboards.
> >>
> >> The on-campus debates here have been worthless,
> to
> >> say the least. Neither side has any kind of
> >> knowledge of the situation at hand, historical
> >> knowledge of the situation, patience for clear
> >> cohesive thought, or even respect enough for the
> >> other side to speak. The campuswide debate
> resulted
> >> in nothing more than a handful of fistfights.
> Those
> >> 500,000 don't get anything out of us American
> idiots
> >> kicking the shit out of each other, do they?
> >>
> >> The protesters that I have seen have done
> nothing
> >> but empty out another word-- "DEMONSTRATION." I
> saw
> >> nothing but a demonstration of incompetence and
> >> teenage rebellion.
> >>
> >> Now I am just another one of those bored kids
> who
> >> goes to these charades. Because I have nothing
> else
> >> to do.
> >>
> >> Please, everyone, give Dyske the respect
> enough to
> >> analyze his arguments enough to give due
> response
> >> towards something constructive, as he has
> touched
> >> upon important issues that us bored kids have
> not
> >> been able to articulate.
> >>
> >>
> >> The worst thing you can do to a movement is
> assume
> >> that everyone onboard is in for the right
> reasons.
> >>
> >>
> >> -Vijay
> >>
> >>
> >> >Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:22:14 -0800 (PST)
> >> > Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com> RE:
> >> RHIZOME_RAW: Your role in stopping the war
> against
> >> IraqReply-To: Michael Szpakowski
> <szpako@yahoo.com>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> ><Let me clarify my position on the war before I
> go
> >> on
> >> > (in order to avoid any
> >> > confusions). I'm neither for nor against it. I
> >> > understand both sides of the
> >> > arguments and they both make sense to me,>
> >> >well! you clarified your postion, we've avoided
> any
> >> >confusion - great - that must be a relief to
> the
> >> >parents of the 500,000 kids that have died
> because
> >> of
> >> >sanctions, and the thousands of young soldiers
> who
> >> >will die, or to those who will fall under the
> >> category
> >> >of 'collateral damage'.
> >> > What your apparently sophisticated arguments
> hide
> >> is
> >> >a contempt for any sort of real engagement with
> >> life ,
> >> >which inevitably means taking moral postions
> and
> >> which
> >> >inevitably means trying to establish the truth
> of
> >> >things which you dismiss so loftily.
> >> >You know - rather Wally Keeler, who at least is
> >> >passionate and cares, than your smug
> abstentionism.
> >> >
> >> >=====
> >> >http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
> >> >
> >>
> >__________________________________________________
> >> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >> >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign
> up
> >> now.
> >> >http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> >> >+ ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> >> >-> post: list@rhizome.org
> >> >-> questions: info@rhizome.org
> >> >-> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> >> >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> >> >+
> >> >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms
> set
> >> out in the
> >> >Membership Agreement available online at
> >> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Get Your Free and Private Junglist E-mail from
> >> Junglist.com
> >> Register Online Here -> http://www.junglist.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
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>
=== message truncated ===

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DISCUSSION

Re: Your role in stopping the war against Iraq


<Let me clarify my position on the war before I go on
(in order to avoid any
confusions). I'm neither for nor against it. I
understand both sides of the
arguments and they both make sense to me,>
well! you clarified your postion, we've avoided any
confusion - great - that must be a relief to the
parents of the 500,000 kids that have died because of
sanctions, and the thousands of young soldiers who
will die, or to those who will fall under the category
of 'collateral damage'.
What your apparently sophisticated arguments hide is
a contempt for any sort of real engagement with life ,
which inevitably means taking moral postions and which
inevitably means trying to establish the truth of
things which you dismiss so loftily.
You know - rather Wally Keeler, who at least is
passionate and cares, than your smug abstentionism.

=====
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/

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DISCUSSION

Re: Your role in stopping the war against Iraq


< Let's take it easy.>
let's not actually -let's rage at the fact that in a
world which could feed, clothe, house and educate
everyone and then some, our leaders ( who do not know
more than us -
just would like to claim to) are taking us into a war
in order to defend the interests of US big business
and it's oil arm in particular.
Your argument is a species of post structualism which
purports to be intellectually heavyweight but which
devolves down to a lazy 'everything is relative' , 'it
all depends on interpretation' that an eleven year old
would find unsophisticated.
The next time I get on a plane I'm going to hope damn
hard that the pilot's rules of physics are the same as
mine.
What is absent from your argument is any notion that
the driving force of history is not the ideas of
clever people ( and the clever person almost always
seems to be the one putting the argument) but the
material circumstances under which human beings labour
in the world to sustain and reproduce life in order
that anyone has time to philosophise.

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/

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DISCUSSION

Re: We Interrupt This Art...


good idea Daniel.
I've done the same -I suggest we Brits link to
http://www.stopwar.org.uk/
which is the Coalition's site - they're organising the
15th February demo which promises to be huge.
best
Michael

--- "marc.garrett" <marc.garrett@furtherfield.org>
wrote:
> Thanx Daniel,
>
> Will do - already had a look at this site, and its
> kool.
>
> marc
>
>
> > I have violated the artistic purity of my precious
> NewZoid to insert
> messages on the site against war with Iraq. In them
> I recommend signing the
> anti-war statement found on http://www.moveon.org. A
> nice feature of that
> well-written statement allows you to add your
> personal comments to it.
> >
> > I respectfully suggest that other artists may find
> it appropriate to
> temporarily interrupt their artworks to make their
> views known.
> >
> > Daniel Young
> > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> > -> post: list@rhizome.org
> > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms
> set out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at
> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >
> >
>
>
>
> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at
http://rhizome.org/info/29.php

=====
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/

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