Michael Szpakowski
Since the beginning
Works in Harlow United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

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DISCUSSION

quilt


We're well into Winter where I am. Even as I write the
snow is falling gently outside my window and no one
has finished the Fall Quilt in Curt Cloninger's
excellent Digital Quilt project

http://www.playdamage.org/fall/index.html

I need my next quilt fix. It's just an animated gif
and it's fun to do. There must surely be a quilt
shaped hole in someone's artistic agenda.
If you're of a Stanislavskian bent and you feel you
just can't do it now the season is past there are a
number of other meanings to the word fall!
best
michael

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DISCUSSION

Re: Your role in stopping the war against Iraq..well that is where we started...


< The planes do work. We know that they do. That does
not mean that we know
exactly why they do.>
Yes we do! Newtonian physics works just fine for
planes and suchlike.
< Some of it may be explainable
by Newtonian physics, but
as we all know, Quantum mechanics is refuting some
> of its claims.>
Quantum mechanics offers an explanation of things that
happen at the sub atomic level -it supplements rather
than supplanting Newtonian physics.
It's introduction in your argument is a red herring:
nobody has ever suggested that there may be
significant quantum effects at work in the mechanical
operation operation of a plane.
To sum up - we have a theory which matches what we see
time after time actually happening - this is a truth
which is independent of opinion or the way it is
expressed in language.
However you are in even more of a tangle than a
misunderstanding of the relationship between Newtonian
and Quantum physics, because your reference to named
theories , whether it be Newtonian Physics, Quantum
Mechanics or your putative future theory , contains an
implicit acceptance that one or the other is closer to
the truth - which truth of course you want to deny
exists.
I utterly reject the assertion that "Racism is in all
of us. It is in you and it is in me"
Speak for yourself.
Michael.

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DISCUSSION

Re: ---important---------RE: RHIZOME_RAW: Your role in stopping the war against Iraq


Vijay -I guess you've been going to the wrong
demonstrations since the ones I 've been on have been
fantastic multiracial, crossgenerational affairs full
of people who know a good deal more about the history
of the Gulf and British and American imperialism there
than the cynical lies put out by our "leaders".
best
Michael
--- Vijay Pattisapu <disco@junglist.com> wrote:
> Dyske or people in his stance are not being smug.
>
> The anti-war demonstrations I've been attending have
> been painful to be a part of. Idiotic potheads,
> insecure charlatans, and just bored kids in general
> were the kind of speakers and audience at each one.
> We just stand there and listen to drivel even worse
> than our politicians are putting out--nobody knows
> what the fuck they're talking about, and it seems
> that, subconsciously, because they already have a
> conviction, they don't care to know more, or, God
> forbid, listen to the other side's arguments.
>
> They hear that loaded ***word*** "WAR" and lift up
> their posterboards.
>
> The on-campus debates here have been worthless, to
> say the least. Neither side has any kind of
> knowledge of the situation at hand, historical
> knowledge of the situation, patience for clear
> cohesive thought, or even respect enough for the
> other side to speak. The campuswide debate resulted
> in nothing more than a handful of fistfights. Those
> 500,000 don't get anything out of us American idiots
> kicking the shit out of each other, do they?
>
> The protesters that I have seen have done nothing
> but empty out another word-- "DEMONSTRATION." I saw
> nothing but a demonstration of incompetence and
> teenage rebellion.
>
> Now I am just another one of those bored kids who
> goes to these charades. Because I have nothing else
> to do.
>
> Please, everyone, give Dyske the respect enough to
> analyze his arguments enough to give due response
> towards something constructive, as he has touched
> upon important issues that us bored kids have not
> been able to articulate.
>
>
> The worst thing you can do to a movement is assume
> that everyone onboard is in for the right reasons.
>
>
> -Vijay
>
>
> >Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:22:14 -0800 (PST)
> > Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com> RE:
> RHIZOME_RAW: Your role in stopping the war against
> IraqReply-To: Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com>
> >
> >
> ><Let me clarify my position on the war before I go
> on
> > (in order to avoid any
> > confusions). I'm neither for nor against it. I
> > understand both sides of the
> > arguments and they both make sense to me,>
> >well! you clarified your postion, we've avoided any
> >confusion - great - that must be a relief to the
> >parents of the 500,000 kids that have died because
> of
> >sanctions, and the thousands of young soldiers who
> >will die, or to those who will fall under the
> category
> >of 'collateral damage'.
> > What your apparently sophisticated arguments hide
> is
> >a contempt for any sort of real engagement with
> life ,
> >which inevitably means taking moral postions and
> which
> >inevitably means trying to establish the truth of
> >things which you dismiss so loftily.
> >You know - rather Wally Keeler, who at least is
> >passionate and cares, than your smug abstentionism.
> >
> >=====
> >http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
> >
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DISCUSSION

Re: ---important---------RE: RHIZOME_RAW: Your role in stopping the war against Iraq


Being UK based I obviously don't know the details of
the problems you're describing - at face value it
certainly seems a questionable decision to exclude
Michael Lerner.
The emphasis here in the UK has been on inclusivenees
- in my town Troskyists, Moslems and Quakers and lots
of others have been working side by side to build
opposition to the war and this is reflected nationally
in the UK ( and I'm not suggesting that the experience
here is somehow 'better' - just that that is what I've
experienced)
However what is most important and perhaps you folks
underestimate it, is the simply enormous impact your
anti war demonstrations had over here - I can't say
how heartened and excited people were by the reports
of the demonstrations a couple of weeks ago.
I always get a bit itchy when people talk about
"antiquated politics" - it's precisely the sort of
phrase that Tony Blair uses here when he wants to
launch another attack on welfare, education or health
provision or Trade Union organisation. If it's old
fashioned to oppose mass killing for the benefit of
the oil industry, to believe that the world can be
changed for the better and that that task requires
conscious organisation then I'm happy to be old
fashioned.
I also think there's a danger of what almost verges on
a kind of snobbery about people who are maybe more
enthusiastic and led by the heart than clued up in
detail about a cause -we all have to atart learning
somewhere and if we're serious about building and
participating in a mass movement, rather than a polite
lobby, against the forthcoming slaughter then I'm for
inclusiveness, for numbers, rather than an entrance
exam.
best
Michael

--- "t.whid" <twhid@mteww.com> wrote:
> i was going to to stay out of this but there has
> been much discomfort
> among the war protestors on the 'leadership' of the
> demonstrations.
>
> see this:
>
http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2002/10/16/protest/
>
> i was at that rally described in the url above and
> the level of the
> speakers was indeed ridiculous. most of the speakers
> looked like
> saturday night live satires.
>
> the organization 'international answer' (see this:
> http://www.internationalanswer.org/) which snagged
> the permits for
> all the demos in washington dc thus far wouldn't let
> the rabbi
> michael lerner (founder of tikkun magazine
> http://www.tikkun.org)
> speak at the latest dc rally as he doesn't fit the
> rest of their
> agenda.
>
> the biggest problem with the antiwar movement thus
> far has been the
> dubious leaders and antiquated politics of some of
> the speakers.
>
> >Vijay -I guess you've been going to the wrong
> >demonstrations since the ones I 've been on have
> been
> >fantastic multiracial, crossgenerational affairs
> full
> >of people who know a good deal more about the
> history
> >of the Gulf and British and American imperialism
> there
> >than the cynical lies put out by our "leaders".
> >best
> >Michael
> >--- Vijay Pattisapu <disco@junglist.com> wrote:
> >> Dyske or people in his stance are not being
> smug.
> >>
> >> The anti-war demonstrations I've been attending
> have
> >> been painful to be a part of. Idiotic potheads,
> >> insecure charlatans, and just bored kids in
> general
> >> were the kind of speakers and audience at each
> one.
> >> We just stand there and listen to drivel even
> worse
> >> than our politicians are putting out--nobody
> knows
> >> what the fuck they're talking about, and it
> seems
> >> that, subconsciously, because they already have
> a
> >> conviction, they don't care to know more, or,
> God
> >> forbid, listen to the other side's arguments.
> >>
> >> They hear that loaded ***word*** "WAR" and lift
> up
> >> their posterboards.
> >>
> >> The on-campus debates here have been worthless,
> to
> >> say the least. Neither side has any kind of
> >> knowledge of the situation at hand, historical
> >> knowledge of the situation, patience for clear
> >> cohesive thought, or even respect enough for the
> >> other side to speak. The campuswide debate
> resulted
> >> in nothing more than a handful of fistfights.
> Those
> >> 500,000 don't get anything out of us American
> idiots
> >> kicking the shit out of each other, do they?
> >>
> >> The protesters that I have seen have done
> nothing
> >> but empty out another word-- "DEMONSTRATION." I
> saw
> >> nothing but a demonstration of incompetence and
> >> teenage rebellion.
> >>
> >> Now I am just another one of those bored kids
> who
> >> goes to these charades. Because I have nothing
> else
> >> to do.
> >>
> >> Please, everyone, give Dyske the respect
> enough to
> >> analyze his arguments enough to give due
> response
> >> towards something constructive, as he has
> touched
> >> upon important issues that us bored kids have
> not
> >> been able to articulate.
> >>
> >>
> >> The worst thing you can do to a movement is
> assume
> >> that everyone onboard is in for the right
> reasons.
> >>
> >>
> >> -Vijay
> >>
> >>
> >> >Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:22:14 -0800 (PST)
> >> > Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com> RE:
> >> RHIZOME_RAW: Your role in stopping the war
> against
> >> IraqReply-To: Michael Szpakowski
> <szpako@yahoo.com>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> ><Let me clarify my position on the war before I
> go
> >> on
> >> > (in order to avoid any
> >> > confusions). I'm neither for nor against it. I
> >> > understand both sides of the
> >> > arguments and they both make sense to me,>
> >> >well! you clarified your postion, we've avoided
> any
> >> >confusion - great - that must be a relief to
> the
> >> >parents of the 500,000 kids that have died
> because
> >> of
> >> >sanctions, and the thousands of young soldiers
> who
> >> >will die, or to those who will fall under the
> >> category
> >> >of 'collateral damage'.
> >> > What your apparently sophisticated arguments
> hide
> >> is
> >> >a contempt for any sort of real engagement with
> >> life ,
> >> >which inevitably means taking moral postions
> and
> >> which
> >> >inevitably means trying to establish the truth
> of
> >> >things which you dismiss so loftily.
> >> >You know - rather Wally Keeler, who at least is
> >> >passionate and cares, than your smug
> abstentionism.
> >> >
> >> >=====
> >> >http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
> >> >
> >>
> >__________________________________________________
> >> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >> >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign
> up
> >> now.
> >> >http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> >> >+ ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> >> >-> post: list@rhizome.org
> >> >-> questions: info@rhizome.org
> >> >-> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> >> >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> >> >+
> >> >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms
> set
> >> out in the
> >> >Membership Agreement available online at
> >> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
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DISCUSSION

Re: Your role in stopping the war against Iraq


<Let me clarify my position on the war before I go on
(in order to avoid any
confusions). I'm neither for nor against it. I
understand both sides of the
arguments and they both make sense to me,>
well! you clarified your postion, we've avoided any
confusion - great - that must be a relief to the
parents of the 500,000 kids that have died because of
sanctions, and the thousands of young soldiers who
will die, or to those who will fall under the category
of 'collateral damage'.
What your apparently sophisticated arguments hide is
a contempt for any sort of real engagement with life ,
which inevitably means taking moral postions and which
inevitably means trying to establish the truth of
things which you dismiss so loftily.
You know - rather Wally Keeler, who at least is
passionate and cares, than your smug abstentionism.

=====
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