---important---------RE: RHIZOME_RAW: Your role in stopping the war against Iraq

Dyske or people in his stance are not being smug.

The anti-war demonstrations I've been attending have been painful to be a part of. Idiotic potheads, insecure charlatans, and just bored kids in general were the kind of speakers and audience at each one. We just stand there and listen to drivel even worse than our politicians are putting out–nobody knows what the fuck they're talking about, and it seems that, subconsciously, because they already have a conviction, they don't care to know more, or, God forbid, listen to the other side's arguments.

They hear that loaded ***word*** "WAR" and lift up their posterboards.

The on-campus debates here have been worthless, to say the least. Neither side has any kind of knowledge of the situation at hand, historical knowledge of the situation, patience for clear cohesive thought, or even respect enough for the other side to speak. The campuswide debate resulted in nothing more than a handful of fistfights. Those 500,000 don't get anything out of us American idiots kicking the shit out of each other, do they?

The protesters that I have seen have done nothing but empty out another word– "DEMONSTRATION." I saw nothing but a demonstration of incompetence and teenage rebellion.

Now I am just another one of those bored kids who goes to these charades. Because I have nothing else to do.

Please, everyone, give Dyske the respect enough to analyze his arguments enough to give due response towards something constructive, as he has touched upon important issues that us bored kids have not been able to articulate.


The worst thing you can do to a movement is assume that everyone onboard is in for the right reasons.


-Vijay


>Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:22:14 -0800 (PST)
> Michael Szpakowski <[email protected]> RE: RHIZOME_RAW: Your role in stopping the war against IraqReply-To: Michael Szpakowski <[email protected]>
>
>
><Let me clarify my position on the war before I go on
> (in order to avoid any
> confusions). I'm neither for nor against it. I
> understand both sides of the
> arguments and they both make sense to me,>
>well! you clarified your postion, we've avoided any
>confusion - great - that must be a relief to the
>parents of the 500,000 kids that have died because of
>sanctions, and the thousands of young soldiers who
>will die, or to those who will fall under the category
>of 'collateral damage'.
> What your apparently sophisticated arguments hide is
>a contempt for any sort of real engagement with life ,
>which inevitably means taking moral postions and which
>inevitably means trying to establish the truth of
>things which you dismiss so loftily.
>You know - rather Wally Keeler, who at least is
>passionate and cares, than your smug abstentionism.
>
>=====
>http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>http://mailplus.yahoo.com
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>-> questions: [email protected]
>-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>+
>Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
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Comments

, Vijay Pattisapu

Dyske or people in his stance are not being smug.

The anti-war demonstrations I've been attending have been painful to be a part of. Idiotic potheads, insecure charlatans, and just bored kids in general were the kind of speakers and audience at each one. We just stand there and listen to drivel even worse than our politicians are putting out–nobody knows what the fuck they're talking about, and it seems that, subconsciously, because they already have a conviction, they don't care to know more, or, God forbid, listen to the other side's arguments.

They hear that loaded ***word*** "WAR" and lift up their posterboards.

The on-campus debates here have been worthless, to say the least. Neither side has any kind of knowledge of the situation at hand, historical knowledge of the situation, patience for clear cohesive thought, or even respect enough for the other side to speak. The campuswide debate resulted in nothing more than a handful of fistfights. Those 500,000 don't get anything out of us American idiots kicking the shit out of each other, do they?

The protesters that I have seen have done nothing but empty out another word– "DEMONSTRATION." I saw nothing but a demonstration of incompetence and teenage rebellion.

Now I am just another one of those bored kids who goes to these charades. Because I have nothing else to do.

Please, everyone, give Dyske the respect enough to analyze his arguments enough to give due response towards something constructive, as he has touched upon important issues that us bored kids have not been able to articulate.


The worst thing you can do to a movement is assume that everyone onboard is in for the right reasons.


-Vijay


>Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:22:14 -0800 (PST)
> Michael Szpakowski <[email protected]> RE: RHIZOME_RAW: Your role in stopping the war against IraqReply-To: Michael Szpakowski <[email protected]>
>
>
><Let me clarify my position on the war before I go on
> (in order to avoid any
> confusions). I'm neither for nor against it. I
> understand both sides of the
> arguments and they both make sense to me,>
>well! you clarified your postion, we've avoided any
>confusion - great - that must be a relief to the
>parents of the 500,000 kids that have died because of
>sanctions, and the thousands of young soldiers who
>will die, or to those who will fall under the category
>of 'collateral damage'.
> What your apparently sophisticated arguments hide is
>a contempt for any sort of real engagement with life ,
>which inevitably means taking moral postions and which
>inevitably means trying to establish the truth of
>things which you dismiss so loftily.
>You know - rather Wally Keeler, who at least is
>passionate and cares, than your smug abstentionism.
>
>=====
>http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>http://mailplus.yahoo.com
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>-> post: [email protected]
>-> questions: [email protected]
>-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>+
>Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php




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, Michael Szpakowski

Vijay -I guess you've been going to the wrong
demonstrations since the ones I 've been on have been
fantastic multiracial, crossgenerational affairs full
of people who know a good deal more about the history
of the Gulf and British and American imperialism there
than the cynical lies put out by our "leaders".
best
Michael
— Vijay Pattisapu <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dyske or people in his stance are not being smug.
>
> The anti-war demonstrations I've been attending have
> been painful to be a part of. Idiotic potheads,
> insecure charlatans, and just bored kids in general
> were the kind of speakers and audience at each one.
> We just stand there and listen to drivel even worse
> than our politicians are putting out–nobody knows
> what the fuck they're talking about, and it seems
> that, subconsciously, because they already have a
> conviction, they don't care to know more, or, God
> forbid, listen to the other side's arguments.
>
> They hear that loaded ***word*** "WAR" and lift up
> their posterboards.
>
> The on-campus debates here have been worthless, to
> say the least. Neither side has any kind of
> knowledge of the situation at hand, historical
> knowledge of the situation, patience for clear
> cohesive thought, or even respect enough for the
> other side to speak. The campuswide debate resulted
> in nothing more than a handful of fistfights. Those
> 500,000 don't get anything out of us American idiots
> kicking the shit out of each other, do they?
>
> The protesters that I have seen have done nothing
> but empty out another word– "DEMONSTRATION." I saw
> nothing but a demonstration of incompetence and
> teenage rebellion.
>
> Now I am just another one of those bored kids who
> goes to these charades. Because I have nothing else
> to do.
>
> Please, everyone, give Dyske the respect enough to
> analyze his arguments enough to give due response
> towards something constructive, as he has touched
> upon important issues that us bored kids have not
> been able to articulate.
>
>
> The worst thing you can do to a movement is assume
> that everyone onboard is in for the right reasons.
>
>
> -Vijay
>
>
> >Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:22:14 -0800 (PST)
> > Michael Szpakowski <[email protected]> RE:
> RHIZOME_RAW: Your role in stopping the war against
> IraqReply-To: Michael Szpakowski <[email protected]>
> >
> >
> ><Let me clarify my position on the war before I go
> on
> > (in order to avoid any
> > confusions). I'm neither for nor against it. I
> > understand both sides of the
> > arguments and they both make sense to me,>
> >well! you clarified your postion, we've avoided any
> >confusion - great - that must be a relief to the
> >parents of the 500,000 kids that have died because
> of
> >sanctions, and the thousands of young soldiers who
> >will die, or to those who will fall under the
> category
> >of 'collateral damage'.
> > What your apparently sophisticated arguments hide
> is
> >a contempt for any sort of real engagement with
> life ,
> >which inevitably means taking moral postions and
> which
> >inevitably means trying to establish the truth of
> >things which you dismiss so loftily.
> >You know - rather Wally Keeler, who at least is
> >passionate and cares, than your smug abstentionism.
> >
> >=====
> >http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
> now.
> >http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> >+ ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> >-> post: [email protected]
> >-> questions: [email protected]
> >-> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> >+
> >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> out in the
> >Membership Agreement available online at
> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
>
>
>
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=====
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, MTAA

i was going to to stay out of this but there has been much discomfort
among the war protestors on the 'leadership' of the demonstrations.

see this: http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2002/10/16/protest/

i was at that rally described in the url above and the level of the
speakers was indeed ridiculous. most of the speakers looked like
saturday night live satires.

the organization 'international answer' (see this:
http://www.internationalanswer.org/) which snagged the permits for
all the demos in washington dc thus far wouldn't let the rabbi
michael lerner (founder of tikkun magazine http://www.tikkun.org)
speak at the latest dc rally as he doesn't fit the rest of their
agenda.

the biggest problem with the antiwar movement thus far has been the
dubious leaders and antiquated politics of some of the speakers.

>Vijay -I guess you've been going to the wrong
>demonstrations since the ones I 've been on have been
>fantastic multiracial, crossgenerational affairs full
>of people who know a good deal more about the history
>of the Gulf and British and American imperialism there
>than the cynical lies put out by our "leaders".
>best
>Michael
>— Vijay Pattisapu <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Dyske or people in his stance are not being smug.
>>
>> The anti-war demonstrations I've been attending have
>> been painful to be a part of. Idiotic potheads,
>> insecure charlatans, and just bored kids in general
>> were the kind of speakers and audience at each one.
>> We just stand there and listen to drivel even worse
>> than our politicians are putting out–nobody knows
>> what the fuck they're talking about, and it seems
>> that, subconsciously, because they already have a
>> conviction, they don't care to know more, or, God
>> forbid, listen to the other side's arguments.
>>
>> They hear that loaded ***word*** "WAR" and lift up
>> their posterboards.
>>
>> The on-campus debates here have been worthless, to
>> say the least. Neither side has any kind of
>> knowledge of the situation at hand, historical
>> knowledge of the situation, patience for clear
>> cohesive thought, or even respect enough for the
>> other side to speak. The campuswide debate resulted
>> in nothing more than a handful of fistfights. Those
>> 500,000 don't get anything out of us American idiots
>> kicking the shit out of each other, do they?
>>
>> The protesters that I have seen have done nothing
>> but empty out another word– "DEMONSTRATION." I saw
>> nothing but a demonstration of incompetence and
>> teenage rebellion.
>>
>> Now I am just another one of those bored kids who
>> goes to these charades. Because I have nothing else
>> to do.
>>
>> Please, everyone, give Dyske the respect enough to
>> analyze his arguments enough to give due response
>> towards something constructive, as he has touched
>> upon important issues that us bored kids have not
>> been able to articulate.
>>
>>
>> The worst thing you can do to a movement is assume
>> that everyone onboard is in for the right reasons.
>>
>>
>> -Vijay
>>
>>
>> >Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:22:14 -0800 (PST)
>> > Michael Szpakowski <[email protected]> RE:
>> RHIZOME_RAW: Your role in stopping the war against
>> IraqReply-To: Michael Szpakowski <[email protected]>
>> >
>> >
>> ><Let me clarify my position on the war before I go
>> on
>> > (in order to avoid any
>> > confusions). I'm neither for nor against it. I
>> > understand both sides of the
>> > arguments and they both make sense to me,>
>> >well! you clarified your postion, we've avoided any
>> >confusion - great - that must be a relief to the
>> >parents of the 500,000 kids that have died because
>> of
>> >sanctions, and the thousands of young soldiers who
>> >will die, or to those who will fall under the
>> category
>> >of 'collateral damage'.
>> > What your apparently sophisticated arguments hide
>> is
>> >a contempt for any sort of real engagement with
>> life ,
>> >which inevitably means taking moral postions and
>> which
>> >inevitably means trying to establish the truth of
>> >things which you dismiss so loftily.
>> >You know - rather Wally Keeler, who at least is
>> >passionate and cares, than your smug abstentionism.
>> >
>> >=====
>> >http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
>> >
>> >__________________________________________________
>> >Do you Yahoo!?
>> >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
>> now.
>> >http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>> >+ ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
>> >-> post: [email protected]
>> >-> questions: [email protected]
>> >-> subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>> >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>> >+
>> >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
>> out in the
>> >Membership Agreement available online at
>> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
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>> -> questions: [email protected]
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>> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>> +
>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
>> out in the
>> Membership Agreement available online at
>http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
>=====
>http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
>
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<twhid>
http://www.mteww.com
</twhid>

, Michael Szpakowski

Being UK based I obviously don't know the details of
the problems you're describing - at face value it
certainly seems a questionable decision to exclude
Michael Lerner.
The emphasis here in the UK has been on inclusivenees
- in my town Troskyists, Moslems and Quakers and lots
of others have been working side by side to build
opposition to the war and this is reflected nationally
in the UK ( and I'm not suggesting that the experience
here is somehow 'better' - just that that is what I've
experienced)
However what is most important and perhaps you folks
underestimate it, is the simply enormous impact your
anti war demonstrations had over here - I can't say
how heartened and excited people were by the reports
of the demonstrations a couple of weeks ago.
I always get a bit itchy when people talk about
"antiquated politics" - it's precisely the sort of
phrase that Tony Blair uses here when he wants to
launch another attack on welfare, education or health
provision or Trade Union organisation. If it's old
fashioned to oppose mass killing for the benefit of
the oil industry, to believe that the world can be
changed for the better and that that task requires
conscious organisation then I'm happy to be old
fashioned.
I also think there's a danger of what almost verges on
a kind of snobbery about people who are maybe more
enthusiastic and led by the heart than clued up in
detail about a cause -we all have to atart learning
somewhere and if we're serious about building and
participating in a mass movement, rather than a polite
lobby, against the forthcoming slaughter then I'm for
inclusiveness, for numbers, rather than an entrance
exam.
best
Michael


— "t.whid" <[email protected]> wrote:
> i was going to to stay out of this but there has
> been much discomfort
> among the war protestors on the 'leadership' of the
> demonstrations.
>
> see this:
>
http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2002/10/16/protest/
>
> i was at that rally described in the url above and
> the level of the
> speakers was indeed ridiculous. most of the speakers
> looked like
> saturday night live satires.
>
> the organization 'international answer' (see this:
> http://www.internationalanswer.org/) which snagged
> the permits for
> all the demos in washington dc thus far wouldn't let
> the rabbi
> michael lerner (founder of tikkun magazine
> http://www.tikkun.org)
> speak at the latest dc rally as he doesn't fit the
> rest of their
> agenda.
>
> the biggest problem with the antiwar movement thus
> far has been the
> dubious leaders and antiquated politics of some of
> the speakers.
>
> >Vijay -I guess you've been going to the wrong
> >demonstrations since the ones I 've been on have
> been
> >fantastic multiracial, crossgenerational affairs
> full
> >of people who know a good deal more about the
> history
> >of the Gulf and British and American imperialism
> there
> >than the cynical lies put out by our "leaders".
> >best
> >Michael
> >— Vijay Pattisapu <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Dyske or people in his stance are not being
> smug.
> >>
> >> The anti-war demonstrations I've been attending
> have
> >> been painful to be a part of. Idiotic potheads,
> >> insecure charlatans, and just bored kids in
> general
> >> were the kind of speakers and audience at each
> one.
> >> We just stand there and listen to drivel even
> worse
> >> than our politicians are putting out–nobody
> knows
> >> what the fuck they're talking about, and it
> seems
> >> that, subconsciously, because they already have
> a
> >> conviction, they don't care to know more, or,
> God
> >> forbid, listen to the other side's arguments.
> >>
> >> They hear that loaded ***word*** "WAR" and lift
> up
> >> their posterboards.
> >>
> >> The on-campus debates here have been worthless,
> to
> >> say the least. Neither side has any kind of
> >> knowledge of the situation at hand, historical
> >> knowledge of the situation, patience for clear
> >> cohesive thought, or even respect enough for the
> >> other side to speak. The campuswide debate
> resulted
> >> in nothing more than a handful of fistfights.
> Those
> >> 500,000 don't get anything out of us American
> idiots
> >> kicking the shit out of each other, do they?
> >>
> >> The protesters that I have seen have done
> nothing
> >> but empty out another word– "DEMONSTRATION." I
> saw
> >> nothing but a demonstration of incompetence and
> >> teenage rebellion.
> >>
> >> Now I am just another one of those bored kids
> who
> >> goes to these charades. Because I have nothing
> else
> >> to do.
> >>
> >> Please, everyone, give Dyske the respect
> enough to
> >> analyze his arguments enough to give due
> response
> >> towards something constructive, as he has
> touched
> >> upon important issues that us bored kids have
> not
> >> been able to articulate.
> >>
> >>
> >> The worst thing you can do to a movement is
> assume
> >> that everyone onboard is in for the right
> reasons.
> >>
> >>
> >> -Vijay
> >>
> >>
> >> >Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:22:14 -0800 (PST)
> >> > Michael Szpakowski <[email protected]> RE:
> >> RHIZOME_RAW: Your role in stopping the war
> against
> >> IraqReply-To: Michael Szpakowski
> <[email protected]>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> ><Let me clarify my position on the war before I
> go
> >> on
> >> > (in order to avoid any
> >> > confusions). I'm neither for nor against it. I
> >> > understand both sides of the
> >> > arguments and they both make sense to me,>
> >> >well! you clarified your postion, we've avoided
> any
> >> >confusion - great - that must be a relief to
> the
> >> >parents of the 500,000 kids that have died
> because
> >> of
> >> >sanctions, and the thousands of young soldiers
> who
> >> >will die, or to those who will fall under the
> >> category
> >> >of 'collateral damage'.
> >> > What your apparently sophisticated arguments
> hide
> >> is
> >> >a contempt for any sort of real engagement with
> >> life ,
> >> >which inevitably means taking moral postions
> and
> >> which
> >> >inevitably means trying to establish the truth
> of
> >> >things which you dismiss so loftily.
> >> >You know - rather Wally Keeler, who at least is
> >> >passionate and cares, than your smug
> abstentionism.
> >> >
> >> >=====
> >> >http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
> >> >
> >>
> >__________________________________________________
> >> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >> >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign
> up
> >> now.
> >> >http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> >> >+ ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> >> >-> post: [email protected]
> >> >-> questions: [email protected]
> >> >-> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> >> >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> >> >+
> >> >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms
> set
> >> out in the
> >> >Membership Agreement available online at
> >> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
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>
=== message truncated ===


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, Vijay Pattisapu

Maybe this points to the disparity between American and British education that I bet many like myself are suspicious of.

Vijay

>Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:01:23 -0800 (PST)
> Michael Szpakowski <[email protected]> Re: —important———RE: RHIZOME_RAW: Your role in stopping the war against Iraq
>Vijay -I guess you've been going to the wrong
>demonstrations since the ones I 've been on have been
>fantastic multiracial, crossgenerational affairs full
>of people who know a good deal more about the history
>of the Gulf and British and American imperialism there
>than the cynical lies put out by our "leaders".
>best
>Michael
>— Vijay Pattisapu <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Dyske or people in his stance are not being smug.
>>
>> The anti-war demonstrations I've been attending have
>> been painful to be a part of. Idiotic potheads,
>> insecure charlatans, and just bored kids in general
>> were the kind of speakers and audience at each one.
>> We just stand there and listen to drivel even worse
>> than our politicians are putting out–nobody knows
>> what the fuck they're talking about, and it seems
>> that, subconsciously, because they already have a
>> conviction, they don't care to know more, or, God
>> forbid, listen to the other side's arguments.
>>
>> They hear that loaded ***word*** "WAR" and lift up
>> their posterboards.
>>
>> The on-campus debates here have been worthless, to
>> say the least. Neither side has any kind of
>> knowledge of the situation at hand, historical
>> knowledge of the situation, patience for clear
>> cohesive thought, or even respect enough for the
>> other side to speak. The campuswide debate resulted
>> in nothing more than a handful of fistfights. Those
>> 500,000 don't get anything out of us American idiots
>> kicking the shit out of each other, do they?
>>
>> The protesters that I have seen have done nothing
>> but empty out another word– "DEMONSTRATION." I saw
>> nothing but a demonstration of incompetence and
>> teenage rebellion.
>>
>> Now I am just another one of those bored kids who
>> goes to these charades. Because I have nothing else
>> to do.
>>
>> Please, everyone, give Dyske the respect enough to
>> analyze his arguments enough to give due response
>> towards something constructive, as he has touched
>> upon important issues that us bored kids have not
>> been able to articulate.
>>
>>
>> The worst thing you can do to a movement is assume
>> that everyone onboard is in for the right reasons.
>>
>>
>> -Vijay
>>
>>
>> >Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:22:14 -0800 (PST)
>> > Michael Szpakowski <[email protected]> RE:
>> RHIZOME_RAW: Your role in stopping the war against
>> IraqReply-To: Michael Szpakowski <[email protected]>
>> >
>> >
>> ><Let me clarify my position on the war before I go
>> on
>> > (in order to avoid any
>> > confusions). I'm neither for nor against it. I
>> > understand both sides of the
>> > arguments and they both make sense to me,>
>> >well! you clarified your postion, we've avoided any
>> >confusion - great - that must be a relief to the
>> >parents of the 500,000 kids that have died because
>> of
>> >sanctions, and the thousands of young soldiers who
>> >will die, or to those who will fall under the
>> category
>> >of 'collateral damage'.
>> > What your apparently sophisticated arguments hide
>> is
>> >a contempt for any sort of real engagement with
>> life ,
>> >which inevitably means taking moral postions and
>> which
>> >inevitably means trying to establish the truth of
>> >things which you dismiss so loftily.
>> >You know - rather Wally Keeler, who at least is
>> >passionate and cares, than your smug abstentionism.
>> >
>> >=====
>> >http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
>> >
>> >__________________________________________________
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
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