RAW_WAR

I would prefer an involvement of Raw in the current debate over whether to
invade Iraq right this minute.

USDAT isn't saying much, so what does anyone think–anyone–about the utter
disinvolvement of net art on the invade/wait matter?

Seems to me a case of too much conversation and no action.

If this war slips through, it will be OUR FAULT.

Jim

++

\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com

MANIK
—– Original Message —–
From: "Pet Name" <[email protected]>
To: "manik" <[email protected]>; "Lee Wells" <[email protected]>; "Joao Pedro"=
<[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 10:29 PM
Subject: RAW_WAR


> What I want is who ever put that fluorescent green BGcolor on this thread=
to
> disable it, stop forwarding the HTML. thxs. ;) Damn green is blinding in
> this snake hole!
>
> * * * * * Anywho * * * * *
>
> We have several options for battles online.
>
> OPTION 1
> - - - - -
> We can take it to these legendary newsgroups:
> nntp://alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk
> nntp://alt.flame
>
>
> OPTION 2
> - - - - -
> Or Informera Style, a WWF style live 48 hr exhaustive match:
> http://www.infomera.net
> http://www.museotamayo.org/infomera
>
>
> OPTION 3
> - - - - -
> Create a new list on Rhizome, call it RAW_WAR
> and have everyone post away!!
>
> * * * * * * * * * * *
>
>
> Check this too, battle of the newsgroup biggies:
> "Two of the most outspoken members of the alt.rap and rec.music.hip-hop
> Usenet newsgroups have decided to go against each other track for track. =
You
> can decide the winner, by downloading and listening to the mp3s below, and
> making your decision. You can also leave love letters and hatemail in the
> convenient comments book underneath the voting poll… go nuts…"
> -http://www.altrap.com/fvc.html
>
>
>
>
> -muserna
> ______
> ,/' __ `.
> (O /O "Cut off the head of a snake
> | / | and it will grow another"
> (o__o)/ // `.
> V( V/_//-. -Welcome to the 21st Century world of
> ) `-' -, Genetic Mutations!!!
> / `.-`.mUseRNA
>
>
> Collect my playing card!
> http://www.museotamayo.org/inmerso/infomera/playercards/muserna.htm
> <http://www.museotamayo.org/inmerso/infomera/playercards/muserna.htm>
>
>
> on 9/9/02 8:44 AM, manik [email protected] ecrit :
>
> > I second that notion (Stop the hate, spread the love)That's we want:to =
show
> > endles stupidity of ad infinitum ego trips.REVOLUTION is key word.But,we
> > wonder how to aproach to this term "revolution"(in generl way),without =
make
> > playground?Also,we stadied about posibiliti to "make revolution".Tricky
> > thing(see R.Barthes, for example).In MANIK-s case chat with Kandiskij w=
as
> > sucesfully way to make clear important issue.This person was kind of tr=
iger
> > for reaction like yours,and,posibly somebody alse.So,we dont hate,actua=
ly I
> > like hisreric&fluxfull people like karei,but he/she is wery artistic(it=
's
> > nice,on some twisted way).If somebody answer to this atempt to make pos=
ible
> > dialogue about revolution(whatewer it is),we are goin to be carefuly
> > listeners.
> > Best wishies
> > MANIK
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: Lee Wells
> > To: Joao Pedro ; [email protected]
> > Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 5:05 AM
> > Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: I second that notion (Stop the hate, spread the l=
ove)
> >
> >
> > Hello all
> > I do wonder why artists have such a hard time getting along with each o=
ther.
> > Please put your egos to rest and lets all try to be constructive toward=
s each
> > other.
> > Critique dont insult. For the most part this list is great but I really=
hate
> > having to delete most of the messages due to childish rants and raves. =
I think
> > we are above the level of an aol teen chat room.
> >
> > I hope the others that have been sitting on the rhizome fringes will co=
me
> > forth and let the kids know enough is enough. We've got a revolution to=
plan.
> >
> > The time was now, now its then!
> > Cheers
> > Lee
> >
> > on 9/8/02 5:19 PM, Joao Pedro at [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: Joao Pedro <mailto:[email protected]>
> > To: [email protected]
> > Cc: Oliveira Pereira <mailto:[email protected]>
> > Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 10:06 PM
> > Subject: RHIZOME RAW: affirmation against reaction
> >
> > Some people seems haven't nothing better to do than insulting each othe=
r, in a
> > negative reaction, with a segregatives sentences or with the famous "no=
", the
> > terrible "no" than i reject in absolute!
> > You know one thing? This expression of reaction, make me laugh, with a
> > Dionysus joy, the affirmation of live and i said: be positive, making t=
hings,
> > don't insulting, don't answer to another with the fascist "no"!
> >
> > Joao Pedro
> > [email protected]
> > http://oliveirapereira1.no.sapo.pt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

Ok lets stop this thing.
Want to organize a 1,000,000 person march on washington.
maybe we should use some of that funny software to mass email all of
congress and the senate with letters of protest. Maybe even starting a
petition would be a good start.

Everything is about oil. Do you drive a car?
Its so beyond us as individuals or is it?

Cheers
Lee

on 9/9/02 4:57 PM, Max Herman at [email protected] wrote:

>
> I would prefer an involvement of Raw in the current debate over whether to
> invade Iraq right this minute.
>
> USDAT isn't saying much, so what does anyone think–anyone–about the utter
> disinvolvement of net art on the invade/wait matter?
>
> Seems to me a case of too much conversation and no action.
>
> If this war slips through, it will be OUR FAULT.
>
> Jim
>
> ++
>
> \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
> Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> http://www.hotmail.com
>
> + If the reader will keep me company I shall be glad.
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php

I think that physical body-groups are less easy for the net.

I fail to see how the US Dept. of Art and Tech is helping here, but who
knows.

My strategy would be to create presence via our easy email powers.

A "List of Seven" is an easy way: Choose seven hype movers and shakers, for
this anti-war effort it would be best to include a variety of addies for
tension, like say Wolf Blitzer, that Ritter dude, some celebrity (say JP
Barlow or Jarod Lanier), a netart critic like Joy Garnett, a wildcard like
Paul Wellstone, etc.

The marches and parties can come later but first things fastest.

Lee, maybe you can coordinate this as a Conference Submission? I can create
a site if you collate info, take input for the 7List (or make it yourself in
consult with your fave frends), etc.

There would need to be a shortish collective statement to link to also, like
"this preemptive war sucks dirty diaper; make Bush hold his mud."

So, like Kandinskij said, the tip of the wedge needs to be close to zero in
width, effortless, clean in soul, so as to remain flexible. Explanations,
details, backup, subsequent activity, etc., all needs to be as free as
possible in development (to meet the needs of the position as in
chess–avoid blocking in your pieces, committing them too early before
knowing where play is going to happen, thus preserving their ability to
co-ordinate dynamically and enhance each other's energy).

The opening move should be 7List, url to go to, and clear first statement.

I think we have to get this online today, and KEEP IT SIMPLE CHAMPIONS!

I'm online today so keep typin Lee. What city you in today, BTW?

Max

++


>From: Lee Wells <[email protected]>
>To: Max Herman <[email protected]>,<[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: RHIZOME\_RAW: RAW\_WAR
>Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:24:45 -0400
>
>Ok lets stop this thing.
>Want to organize a 1,000,000 person march on washington.
>maybe we should use some of that funny software to mass email all of
>congress and the senate with letters of protest. Maybe even starting a
>petition would be a good start.
>
>Everything is about oil. Do you drive a car?
>Its so beyond us as individuals or is it?
>
>Cheers
>Lee
>
>on 9/9/02 4:57 PM, Max Herman at [email protected] wrote:
>
> >
> > I would prefer an involvement of Raw in the current debate over whether
>to
> > invade Iraq right this minute.
> >
> > USDAT isn't saying much, so what does anyone think–anyone–about the
>utter
> > disinvolvement of net art on the invade/wait matter?
> >
> > Seems to me a case of too much conversation and no action.
> >
> > If this war slips through, it will be OUR FAULT.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > ++
> >
> > \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
> > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> > + If the reader will keep me company I shall be glad.
> > -> post: [email protected]
> > -> questions: [email protected]
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php




\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Here's Sontag NYT Op-Ed, not sure where to file:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/10/opinion/10SONT.html



_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

Hey Max

I was overexagerating a bit with the million march idea but it woulld be
nice to see. I agree the internet and email is the way to go. I'd like to
figure out how the stupid weight loss people and the get rich quick emails
get my yahoo and hotmail address' and spam me every day. How can we get the
message across to the average consumer. The message needs to be delivered to
the general public at large break this thing outside the digital artworld.
Maybe we should construct a chain letter.

I bet Woody Harrelson might be down with making a statement.
http://www.voiceyourself.com/

Studs Turkel also someone who would probably donate a staement or two. In
fact hes been saying it for 30 or more years.

Rock Bands like U2, Phish and Dave Mathews Band all have somewhat of a
political stance.

I'm living in NYC.
Tomorrow I am going down to the World Trade Center site to interview people
and have them recite the American National Anthem as a poem. We all know
only the first verse of this very violent song. Its pretty scarry.

Last night I had a dream where in the distance I saw a mushroom cloud bloom
on the horizon and everyone acted like nothing happened. I'm worried our
country may be planning something very bad.

More to come
Cheers
Lee


on 9/10/02 1:49 PM, Max Herman at [email protected] wrote:

>
>
> I think that physical body-groups are less easy for the net.
>
> I fail to see how the US Dept. of Art and Tech is helping here, but who
> knows.
>
> My strategy would be to create presence via our easy email powers.
>
> A "List of Seven" is an easy way: Choose seven hype movers and shakers, for
> this anti-war effort it would be best to include a variety of addies for
> tension, like say Wolf Blitzer, that Ritter dude, some celebrity (say JP
> Barlow or Jarod Lanier), a netart critic like Joy Garnett, a wildcard like
> Paul Wellstone, etc.
>
> The marches and parties can come later but first things fastest.
>
> Lee, maybe you can coordinate this as a Conference Submission? I can create
> a site if you collate info, take input for the 7List (or make it yourself in
> consult with your fave frends), etc.
>
> There would need to be a shortish collective statement to link to also, like
> "this preemptive war sucks dirty diaper; make Bush hold his mud."
>
> So, like Kandinskij said, the tip of the wedge needs to be close to zero in
> width, effortless, clean in soul, so as to remain flexible. Explanations,
> details, backup, subsequent activity, etc., all needs to be as free as
> possible in development (to meet the needs of the position as in
> chess–avoid blocking in your pieces, committing them too early before
> knowing where play is going to happen, thus preserving their ability to
> co-ordinate dynamically and enhance each other's energy).
>
> The opening move should be 7List, url to go to, and clear first statement.
>
> I think we have to get this online today, and KEEP IT SIMPLE CHAMPIONS!
>
> I'm online today so keep typin Lee. What city you in today, BTW?
>
> Max
>
> ++
>
>
>> From: Lee Wells <[email protected]>
>> To: Max Herman <[email protected]>,<[email protected]>
>> Subject: Re: RHIZOME\_RAW: RAW\_WAR
>> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:24:45 -0400
>>
>> Ok lets stop this thing.
>> Want to organize a 1,000,000 person march on washington.
>> maybe we should use some of that funny software to mass email all of
>> congress and the senate with letters of protest. Maybe even starting a
>> petition would be a good start.
>>
>> Everything is about oil. Do you drive a car?
>> Its so beyond us as individuals or is it?
>>
>> Cheers
>> Lee
>>
>> on 9/9/02 4:57 PM, Max Herman at [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I would prefer an involvement of Raw in the current debate over whether
>> to
>>> invade Iraq right this minute.
>>>
>>> USDAT isn't saying much, so what does anyone think–anyone–about the
>> utter
>>> disinvolvement of net art on the invade/wait matter?
>>>
>>> Seems to me a case of too much conversation and no action.
>>>
>>> If this war slips through, it will be OUR FAULT.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>> ++
>>>
>>> \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
>>> Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
>>> http://www.hotmail.com
>>>
>>> + If the reader will keep me company I shall be glad.
>>> -> post: [email protected]
>>> -> questions: [email protected]
>>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>>> +
>>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>>> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
>
>
> \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Hi, Lee!

Why a 1.000.000 person march over Washington? For What? The crow yellin=
g some slogans, two ou three order words, maybe to have confronts with the =
police and in the end, all this people return to their homes, watching tele=
vision and see images of this giant manisfestation on a 1.000.000 of screen=
s?! Sorry to desapoint you, but the tactics of the May 68 are absolete and,=
unfortunately, in the anti-globalization movements, i don't see the emerge=
nce of a new mode of collective action, but this movements, continue to fal=
low the patterns that don't work anymore! And Max Herman was right, when he=
wrote: "Seems to me a case of to much conversation and no action." In fact=
, the art or the philosophy, in my way of think, only have sense in the "pr=
axis". "In the beginning, there was the action", Toni Negri said that in th=
e book, "Les Nouveaux espaces de liberte", by Felix Guattari. Even so, =
this email i send to you, is not to talk about books, but is to define some=
concrete strategies of fighting and i would like hear your opinion, of som=
e ideas to concerne of political action.
You know, in this actual state of things, only matter's the identity ,=
the supervalue. So, the strategy is to annul this supervalue of the bodies=
and corrupt the identity, accepted by the generality of the society, simpl=
e as that! Change the trade mark of the objects and replace them for one na=
me, invented by you. Scraping the logtype of everything, in order to erasur=
e for complete all the marks. Imagine a particular mark of cars, without h=
er satar. Imagine this cars all over the world without her star! What you t=
hing it would happen? It simply would exist anymore!
Try spread the message: jeans, computers, videos, televisions, gettin=
g off their signs of trade mark! It would be the caos, if most of the peopl=
e would act this way!
Now, imagine a hundred guys, in front of a store, dressing from the f=
eet to the top of the head, clothes of this mark and with scissors, cutting=
-up all the labels! Destroyng a lebel in a particular object, that you had =
paid, could be a crime? I'm not jurist, but i don't think so! But, imagine =
the cenario, day by day, in the televisions all over the world, you see peo=
ple setting free of the labels and after, you have publicity of the same tr=
ade marks in the break time of the TV shows! That was a untenable paradox f=
or the capitalism system…
Think of that!

Best regards:

Joao Pedro
[email protected]
http://oliveirapereira1.no.sapo.pt


—– Original Message —–
From: "Lee Wells" <[email protected]>
To: "Max Herman" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: RAW_WAR


> Ok lets stop this thing.
> Want to organize a 1,000,000 person march on washington.
> maybe we should use some of that funny software to mass email all of
> congress and the senate with letters of protest. Maybe even starting a
> petition would be a good start.
>
> Everything is about oil. Do you drive a car?
> Its so beyond us as individuals or is it?
>
> Cheers
> Lee
>
> on 9/9/02 4:57 PM, Max Herman at [email protected] wrote:
>
> >
> > I would prefer an involvement of Raw in the current debate over whether=
to
> > invade Iraq right this minute.
> >
> > USDAT isn't saying much, so what does anyone think–anyone–about the u=
tter
> > disinvolvement of net art on the invade/wait matter?
> >
> > Seems to me a case of too much conversation and no action.
> >
> > If this war slips through, it will be OUR FAULT.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > ++
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> > + If the reader will keep me company I shall be glad.
> > -> post: [email protected]
> > -> questions: [email protected]
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
> + If the reader will keep me company I shall be glad.
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

—– Original Message —–
From: Joao Pedro
To: Lee Wells ; [email protected]
Cc: Oliveira Pereira
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 1:54 AM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: RAW_WAR


Hi, Lee!

Why a 1.000.000 person march over Washington? For What? The crow yellin=
g some slogans, two ou three order words, maybe to have confronts with the =
police and in the end, all this people return to their homes, watching tele=
vision and see images of this giant manisfestation on a 1.000.000 of screen=
s?! Sorry to desapoint you, but the tactics of the May 68 are absolete and,=
unfortunately, in the anti-globalization movements, i don't see the emerge=
nce of a new mode of collective action, but this movements, continue to fal=
low the patterns that don't work anymore! And Max Herman was right, when he=
wrote: "Seems to me a case of to much conversation and no action." In fact=
, the art or the philosophy, in my way of think, only have sense in the "pr=
axis". "In the beginning, there was the action", Toni Negri said that in th=
e book, "Les Nouveaux espaces de liberte", by Felix Guattari. Even so, =
this email i send to you, is not to talk about books, but is to define some=
concrete strategies of fighting and i would like hear your opinion, of som=
e ideas to concerne of political action.
You know, in this actual state of things, only matter's the identity ,=
the supervalue. So, the strategy is to annul this supervalue of the bodies=
and corrupt the identity, accepted by the generality of the society, simpl=
e as that! Change the trade mark of the objects and replace them for one na=
me, invented by you. Scraping the logtype of everything, in order to erasur=
e for complete all the marks. Imagine a particular mark of cars, without h=
er satar. Imagine this cars all over the world without her star! What you t=
hing it would happen? It simply would exist anymore!
Try spread the message: jeans, computers, videos, televisions, gettin=
g off their signs of trade mark! It would be the caos, if most of the peopl=
e would act this way!
Now, imagine a hundred guys, in front of a store, dressing from the f=
eet to the top of the head, clothes of this mark and with scissors, cutting=
-up all the labels! Destroyng a lebel in a particular object, that you had =
paid, could be a crime? I'm not jurist, but i don't think so! But, imagine =
the cenario, day by day, in the televisions all over the world, you see peo=
ple setting free of the labels and after, you have publicity of the same tr=
ade marks in the break time of the TV shows! That was a untenable paradox f=
or the capitalism system…
Think of that!

Best regards:

Joao Pedro
[email protected]
http://oliveirapereira1.no.sapo.pt


—– Original Message —–
From: "Lee Wells" <[email protected]>
To: "Max Herman" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: RAW_WAR


> Ok lets stop this thing.
> Want to organize a 1,000,000 person march on washington.
> maybe we should use some of that funny software to mass email all of
> congress and the senate with letters of protest. Maybe even starting a
> petition would be a good start.
>
> Everything is about oil. Do you drive a car?
> Its so beyond us as individuals or is it?
>
> Cheers
> Lee
>
> on 9/9/02 4:57 PM, Max Herman at [email protected] wrote:
>
> >
> > I would prefer an involvement of Raw in the current debate over whether=
to
> > invade Iraq right this minute.
> >
> > USDAT isn't saying much, so what does anyone think–anyone–about the u=
tter
> > disinvolvement of net art on the invade/wait matter?
> >
> > Seems to me a case of too much conversation and no action.
> >
> > If this war slips through, it will be OUR FAULT.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > ++
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> > + If the reader will keep me company I shall be glad.
> > -> post: [email protected]
> > -> questions: [email protected]
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
> + If the reader will keep me company I shall be glad.
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>