Re: killing shakespeare
-
In a message dated 6/27/2002 11:52:19 AM Central Daylight Time,
invisible@cfl.rr.com writes:
> because you're dilluting yourself in a media
> that is so utterly disposable
I may be small, but I'm old. Genius 2000 is totally indisposable.
To the genius mind of course.
Genially,
Max Herman
genius2000.net
++You must be logged in to post a comment. Log In -
In my opinion the work of Shakespeare cannot be considered out of the context of the <Theatre> media.
First than the literature, the fame of the bard, still live in the strong performance that grown from his operas, and don't forget that this one was his buyers' target.
The death of Theatre, or its confluence in internet media, could be more interesting than killing Shakespeare IMHO.
Thus you should kill Omero, Dante, Philp Dick and so on....
-dlsan-
c/o
kid koma @deprecate design ->
http://www.dlsan.org
The Land Project ->
http://www.dlsan.org/land
the HyperMacbeth ->
http://digilander.iol.it/dlsan/macbeth/the_mac.htm
Interviewed by www.wired.com
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,52761,00.htmlYou must be logged in to post a comment. Log In -
In a message dated 6/28/2002 4:13:57 AM Central Daylight Time,
dlsan@dlsan.org writes:
> In my opinion the work of Shakespeare cannot be considered out of the
> context of the <Theatre> media.
>
Kickass. And that's just the first line!
Hello,
MaxYou must be logged in to post a comment. Log In -
In a message dated 6/28/2002 4:13:57 AM Central Daylight Time,
dlsan@dlsan.org writes:
> Philp Dick and so on....
Well, free publishing has changed music (granted), Bowie even said the rock
star is finished. How come the same doesn't apply to other stuff like
writing?
I mean, if there are exceptions it's best to look at why and how.
All bon pain,
Max Herman
genius2000.net
++You must be logged in to post a comment. Log In -
Its interesting this discussion about wether some part of history is most important than other, but it goes no where.
Life is like an onion it has lots of layers.
But arguing the importance of one era over another is pointless if I may say soy it like sayin that western culture is more important tahn aboriginal culture or japanese culture, we should rather open our eyes to the enriching expirience of every single culture over earth and every single minute of the development of a planetary mind filled of singularities.
Andres
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i don't think that "8 track, beta or vhs" is the appropriate analogy. those
are technologies ... html et al. is language (with its own grammar). i also
don't think it is accurate to compare [newmedia] to [shakespeare]. my point
was that shakespeare used [pen and paper] to reveal our humanity ... just as
current newmedia artists use html/flash to share/express the human
experience
if newmedia authors have tools that are inherently more powerful (than pen
and paper) ... then shouldn't they be able to alter the way we, as humans,
perceive ourselves?
i am simply drawing a comparison, an analogy ..... [shakespeare] is to
[pen&paper] as [???????] is to [newmedia]
at some point a newmedia "author" will/may come to have the same kind of
impact on humanity that shakespeare currently exerts
david goldschmidt
----- Original Message -----
From: "KALX" <invisible@cfl.rr.com>
To: "David Goldschmidt" <dgoldsch@tampabay.rr.com>
Cc: <list@rhizome.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: killing shakespeare
> Sorry to say, new media will never, ever have as profound an effect on
humanity
> as the work of Shakespeare has, as dated as you may think it is. Just
because
> something is new doesn't mean it's going to have a lasting effect on
anything.
> To say html, xml, flash are the new grammar is like saying that 8-track
and beta
> (and now vhs) will always be around. It is the current dialect for the
internet,
> but it hasn't destroyed the relevance of history, and it surely won't
prove to
> be as long-lasting. The language of the internet is too ephemeral to put
that
> much significance in it. And too ephemeral to say that history that has
had a
> dramatic impact on our culture for centuries is no longer relevant. You
might be
> able to kill Shakespeare by simply overlooking it like the TV generation
has
> ignored books, but you can't deny their influence. And if TV and the
internet
> are the only things that you can draw upon as being relevant, then you
cannot
> hope to make an impact anywhere, because you're dilluting yourself in a
media
> that is so utterly disposable.
>
>
> David Goldschmidt wrote:
>
> > without getting too militant ... i think Killing Shakespeare is like a
> > call-to-arms for the net.art community. why waste your time trying to
> > explain to others how newmedia composition is better than TV, movies,
etc
> > ... that crap isn't even in the same history.
> >
> > for me, Killing Shakespeare is a signal ... a notice ... a wake-up call
...
> > a warning to the rest of the world that human language is evolving and
if
> > you don't understand the language then you don't know what's going on.
if
> > you don't understand the language then you are not part of the
conversation.
> >
> > Killing Shakespeare is not a call to appreciate net.art per se. it is
media
> > literacy. it is letting people know that the old grammar is not as
relevant
> > as it used to be ... and that the new-grammar (html, xml, flash, etc) is
> > changing the way we see the world and ourselves.
> >
> > the phrase "killing shakespeare" may be a bit abrasive but that's what
> > newmedia is doing (for better or for worse)
> >
> > david goldschmidt
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Max Herman" <maxherman@zipmail.com>
> > To: "Max Herman" <maxherman@zipmail.com>; "David Goldschmidt"
> > <dgoldsch@tampabay.rr.com>; <list@rhizome.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 3:53 PM
> > Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: killing shakespeare
> >
> > > On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:48:34 -0500
> > > "Max Herman" <maxherman@zipmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 18:29:43 -0400
> > > > "David Goldschmidt" <dgoldsch@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> > > > > KILLING SHAKESPEARE
> > >
> > > I hope you don't think I was trying to dis you David. I
> > > think you are on one of the right tracks, all of which
> > > lead of course to Genius 2000. I also just remembered
> > > it's Ezra Cornell, not Elias.
> > >
> > > Steady now 13,
> > >
> > > Max
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Remember thee!
> > > > Ay, thou poor ghost, while memory holds a seat
> > > > In this distracted globe. Remember thee!
> > > > Yea, from the table of my memory
> > > > I'll wipe away all trivial fond records,
> > > > All saws of books, all forms, all pressures past,
> > > > That youth and observation copied there;
> > > > And thy commandment all alone shall live
> > > > Within the book and volume of my brain,
> > > > Unmix'd with baser matter....
> > > >
> > > > Act One Scene Four
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Did you ever wonder what would happen ... what was
> > > > > suppose to happen ... when 500 million people connect?
> > > > > When your mind imagined the possibilities did it get
> > > > > stuck? Did it stop? Did you believe Wall Street and
> > > > > Madison Avenue when they told you what the Internet
> > > > was
> > > > > ... and how it was to be used?
> > > > >
> > > > > I hope you didn't.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the late 1500s Shakespeare mastered the printed
> > > > word.
> > > > > He revolutionized human expression. He changed the way
> > > > > we saw ourselves. "Personality, in our sense, is a
> > > > > Shakespearean invention, and is not only Shakespeare's
> > > > > greatest originality but also the authentic cause of
> > > > his
> > > > > perpetual pervasiveness." so says Harold Bloom, one of
> > > > > America's most respected literary critics. According
> > > > to
> > > > > Bloom, Shakespeare "invented the human".
> > > > >
> > > > > It is happening again. We have discovered a new way to
> > > > > express our common self. Last time Shakespeare did it
> > > > > with mere words. We are not that limited.
> > > > >
> > > > > Silent film, AM radio, black & white television ... the
> > > > > birth of these vehicles are monumental moments in the
> > > > > evolution of man and society. As great as they were
> > > > (and
> > > > > have become) they have never been able to easily
> > > > > overcome the basic tenets of telling a story (of
> > > > sharing
> > > > > the human experience). All follow the guidelines
> > > > > established by Shakespeare hundreds of years ago.
> > > > >
> > > > > Killing Shakespeare is not a revolutionary technology
> > > > > like the ones above but is instead, a simple
> > > > > observation: human language is evolving.
> > > > >
> > > > > A simple observation that newmedia composition can
> > > > > express (and share) the human experience in a way that
> > > > > is not limited to the predictable patterns of film,
> > > > > television and Shakespeare.
> > > > >
> > > > > Unlike film and television, newmedia compositions are
> > > > not
> > > > > telling a story. They offer an [experience]. Unlike
> > > > film
> > > > > and television, newmedia compositions are not passive.
> > > > > You interact ... and your choices determine your
> > > > > [experience].
> > > > >
> > > > > Newmedia artists are less interested in character
> > > > > development and more interested in your experience
> > > > (your
> > > > > development). In other words, as you interact with
> > > > > newmedia creations the only character being developed
> > > > is
> > > > > ... YOU.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > david goldschmidt
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________________________
> > > > Don't E-Mail, ZipMail! http://www.zipmail.com/
> > > > + i get yr point. yr so sharp.
> > > > -> Rhizome.org
> > > > -> post: list@rhizome.org
> > > > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> > > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > > > http://rhizome.org/subscribe.rhiz
> > > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > > > +
> > > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out
> > > > in the
> > > > Membership Agreement available online at
> > > > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php3
> > >
> > > ________________________________________________
> > > Don't E-Mail, ZipMail! http://www.zipmail.com/
> >
> > + i get yr point. yr so sharp.
> > -> Rhizome.org
> > -> post: list@rhizome.org
> > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php3
>You must be logged in to post a comment. Log In -
> Its interesting this discussion about wether some part of history is most important than other, but it goes no where.
>
> Life is like an onion it has lots of layers.
>
> But arguing the importance of one era over another is pointless if I may say soy it like sayin that western culture is more important tahn aboriginal culture or japanese culture, we should rather open our eyes to the enriching expirience of every single culture over earth and every single minute of the development of a planetary mind filled of singularities.
>
That's a good approach.
And it's important the consciousness of the context, in my opinion. It's
important when you program computer too (languages).
I think this discussion is about how Shakespeare is Important for Lit?
I know he's considered the biggets dramatist : this context needs "acting",
directors, actors, public.
Not for Lit. Literature needs a reader and someteimes immagination.
And is really a different experience "performing" instead of "reading".
Am I trying an Object Oriented approach do deconstruct the media?
Maybe.
I'm not worried for William, he's immortal, and I hope his creativity have
been stronger than the need to became "the biggest" (admitting that he ever
thought that): "time" is the hardest selector.
But saying "killing Shakespeare" could mean clashing against the criticism.
Than that's good too. Necessary.
-dlsan-
kid koma net kitsch - web soup - mind maze - @deprecate design
@ http://www.dlsan.org
the land project @
http://digilander.iol.it/dlsan/landYou must be logged in to post a comment. Log In -
Well, Okay. So 8-track, beta, and VHS are all a product of technology. In this
case outdated technology. The only reason why I mention these is because they
all
draw from the electronics arena which has widely expanded today to be all more
inclusive, including the very things we use right now to implement html and
other
aforementioned languages.
But if the technology were not developed there would be no HTML from which to
apply it. HTML is a product of technology, just like 8-track, beta, and VHS. The
electronics of that time period facilitated the ability for these things to
exist just as today's technology allows for programming languages to exist. Just
because HTML
is a language does not mean that it's not a product of technology.
That's not to say that they are categorically similar. It would probably be
easier to draw comparisons of VHS, beta, and 8-track to an internet web cast.
The language
of electronics has allowed for VHS, beta, and 8-track to exist just as
electronics allowed for the hardware to exist that makes web casts possible. And
the
programming language that delivers it is just another layer that serves as a
means of delivery.
And also, just for the sheer versatility of the medium we are working with, it's
stupid to say that someone in newmedia may reach Shakespeare proportions.
Shakespeare succeeded in becoming what he is today because he contributed
something that we had not had before. Nobody in newmedia could give us anything
that we do not have. Everything in NEWMEDIA is NEW and the only way to deviate
from that is if they give us something OLD, and that would be taking a step
back. There is no room for advancement in newmedia, and nobody will excel more
than the other unless we are speaking in monetary terms. Newmedia is simply a
means of channeling money into our pockets, whilst pretending the product of the
work is an end in itself.
Shakespeare worked for the queen.
I will never see the day when a newmedia artist works for the queen. There are
far too many other forms of entertainment out there. And really, getting beyond
all the
logistics and details, newmedia is just a mediocre form of entertainment that
will hopefully be developed into something more palatable. Right now we are in
the
phonograph stage. Maybe in a few decades we'll have reached 8-track stage. Until
then, just think of now as a time that will be looked back on as the silent-film
era
of the internet.
"Back in my time, the first internet artist on the scene made art that looked
like it was ripped off a broken Atari game. That was enough to win a Webby award
because nobody was creative enough to do anything better, and newmedia is really
nothing but politics!"
Here's some newmedia art that might inspire everyone:
http://www.homestarrunner.com
David Goldschmidt wrote:
> i don't think that "8 track, beta or vhs" is the appropriate analogy. those
> are technologies ... html et al. is language (with its own grammar). i also
> don't think it is accurate to compare [newmedia] to [shakespeare]. my point
> was that shakespeare used [pen and paper] to reveal our humanity ... just as
> current newmedia artists use html/flash to share/express the human
> experience
>
> if newmedia authors have tools that are inherently more powerful (than pen
> and paper) ... then shouldn't they be able to alter the way we, as humans,
> perceive ourselves?
>
> i am simply drawing a comparison, an analogy ..... [shakespeare] is to
> [pen&paper] as [???????] is to [newmedia]
>
> at some point a newmedia "author" will/may come to have the same kind of
> impact on humanity that shakespeare currently exerts
>
> david goldschmidt
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "KALX" <invisible@cfl.rr.com>
> To: "David Goldschmidt" <dgoldsch@tampabay.rr.com>
> Cc: <list@rhizome.org>
> Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 3:39 PM
> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: killing shakespeare
>
> > Sorry to say, new media will never, ever have as profound an effect on
> humanity
> > as the work of Shakespeare has, as dated as you may think it is. Just
> because
> > something is new doesn't mean it's going to have a lasting effect on
> anything.
> > To say html, xml, flash are the new grammar is like saying that 8-track
> and beta
> > (and now vhs) will always be around. It is the current dialect for the
> internet,
> > but it hasn't destroyed the relevance of history, and it surely won't
> prove to
> > be as long-lasting. The language of the internet is too ephemeral to put
> that
> > much significance in it. And too ephemeral to say that history that has
> had a
> > dramatic impact on our culture for centuries is no longer relevant. You
> might be
> > able to kill Shakespeare by simply overlooking it like the TV generation
> has
> > ignored books, but you can't deny their influence. And if TV and the
> internet
> > are the only things that you can draw upon as being relevant, then you
> cannot
> > hope to make an impact anywhere, because you're dilluting yourself in a
> media
> > that is so utterly disposable.
> >
> >
> > David Goldschmidt wrote:
> >
> > > without getting too militant ... i think Killing Shakespeare is like a
> > > call-to-arms for the net.art community. why waste your time trying to
> > > explain to others how newmedia composition is better than TV, movies,
> etc
> > > ... that crap isn't even in the same history.
> > >
> > > for me, Killing Shakespeare is a signal ... a notice ... a wake-up call
> ...
> > > a warning to the rest of the world that human language is evolving and
> if
> > > you don't understand the language then you don't know what's going on.
> if
> > > you don't understand the language then you are not part of the
> conversation.
> > >
> > > Killing Shakespeare is not a call to appreciate net.art per se. it is
> media
> > > literacy. it is letting people know that the old grammar is not as
> relevant
> > > as it used to be ... and that the new-grammar (html, xml, flash, etc) is
> > > changing the way we see the world and ourselves.
> > >
> > > the phrase "killing shakespeare" may be a bit abrasive but that's what
> > > newmedia is doing (for better or for worse)
> > >
> > > david goldschmidt
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Max Herman" <maxherman@zipmail.com>
> > > To: "Max Herman" <maxherman@zipmail.com>; "David Goldschmidt"
> > > <dgoldsch@tampabay.rr.com>; <list@rhizome.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 3:53 PM
> > > Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: killing shakespeare
> > >
> > > > On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:48:34 -0500
> > > > "Max Herman" <maxherman@zipmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 18:29:43 -0400
> > > > > "David Goldschmidt" <dgoldsch@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> > > > > > KILLING SHAKESPEARE
> > > >
> > > > I hope you don't think I was trying to dis you David. I
> > > > think you are on one of the right tracks, all of which
> > > > lead of course to Genius 2000. I also just remembered
> > > > it's Ezra Cornell, not Elias.
> > > >
> > > > Steady now 13,
> > > >
> > > > Max
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Remember thee!
> > > > > Ay, thou poor ghost, while memory holds a seat
> > > > > In this distracted globe. Remember thee!
> > > > > Yea, from the table of my memory
> > > > > I'll wipe away all trivial fond records,
> > > > > All saws of books, all forms, all pressures past,
> > > > > That youth and observation copied there;
> > > > > And thy commandment all alone shall live
> > > > > Within the book and volume of my brain,
> > > > > Unmix'd with baser matter....
> > > > >
> > > > > Act One Scene Four
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Did you ever wonder what would happen ... what was
> > > > > > suppose to happen ... when 500 million people connect?
> > > > > > When your mind imagined the possibilities did it get
> > > > > > stuck? Did it stop? Did you believe Wall Street and
> > > > > > Madison Avenue when they told you what the Internet
> > > > > was
> > > > > > ... and how it was to be used?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I hope you didn't.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In the late 1500s Shakespeare mastered the printed
> > > > > word.
> > > > > > He revolutionized human expression. He changed the way
> > > > > > we saw ourselves. "Personality, in our sense, is a
> > > > > > Shakespearean invention, and is not only Shakespeare's
> > > > > > greatest originality but also the authentic cause of
> > > > > his
> > > > > > perpetual pervasiveness." so says Harold Bloom, one of
> > > > > > America's most respected literary critics. According
> > > > > to
> > > > > > Bloom, Shakespeare "invented the human".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is happening again. We have discovered a new way to
> > > > > > express our common self. Last time Shakespeare did it
> > > > > > with mere words. We are not that limited.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Silent film, AM radio, black & white television ... the
> > > > > > birth of these vehicles are monumental moments in the
> > > > > > evolution of man and society. As great as they were
> > > > > (and
> > > > > > have become) they have never been able to easily
> > > > > > overcome the basic tenets of telling a story (of
> > > > > sharing
> > > > > > the human experience). All follow the guidelines
> > > > > > established by Shakespeare hundreds of years ago.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Killing Shakespeare is not a revolutionary technology
> > > > > > like the ones above but is instead, a simple
> > > > > > observation: human language is evolving.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A simple observation that newmedia composition can
> > > > > > express (and share) the human experience in a way that
> > > > > > is not limited to the predictable patterns of film,
> > > > > > television and Shakespeare.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Unlike film and television, newmedia compositions are
> > > > > not
> > > > > > telling a story. They offer an [experience]. Unlike
> > > > > film
> > > > > > and television, newmedia compositions are not passive.
> > > > > > You interact ... and your choices determine your
> > > > > > [experience].
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Newmedia artists are less interested in character
> > > > > > development and more interested in your experience
> > > > > (your
> > > > > > development). In other words, as you interact with
> > > > > > newmedia creations the only character being developed
> > > > > is
> > > > > > ... YOU.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > david goldschmidt
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________________________
> > > > > Don't E-Mail, ZipMail! http://www.zipmail.com/
> > > > > + i get yr point. yr so sharp.
> > > > > -> Rhizome.org
> > > > > -> post: list@rhizome.org
> > > > > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> > > > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > > > > http://rhizome.org/subscribe.rhiz
> > > > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > > > > +
> > > > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out
> > > > > in the
> > > > > Membership Agreement available online at
> > > > > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php3
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________________________
> > > > Don't E-Mail, ZipMail! http://www.zipmail.com/
> > >
> > > + i get yr point. yr so sharp.
> > > -> Rhizome.org
> > > -> post: list@rhizome.org
> > > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/subscribe.rhiz
> > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > > +
> > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> > > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php3
> >You must be logged in to post a comment. Log In -
KALX wrote:
> And also, just for the sheer versatility of the medium we are working
with, it's
> stupid to say that someone in newmedia may reach Shakespeare proportions.
> Shakespeare succeeded in becoming what he is today because he contributed
> something that we had not had before. Nobody in newmedia could give us
anything
> that we do not have. Everything in NEWMEDIA is NEW and the only way to
deviate
> from that is if they give us something OLD, and that would be taking a
step
> back. There is no room for advancement in newmedia, and nobody will excel
more
> than the other unless we are speaking in monetary terms. Newmedia is
simply a
> means of channeling money into our pockets, whilst pretending the product
of the
> work is an end in itself.
>
> Shakespeare worked for the queen.
are you saying that one of the main reasons Shakespeare was so
successful/influential is becasue he was using such as limited medium (pen &
paper)? curious logic.
shakespeare was NOT successful because he gave us something we never had
before ... humans always had [it] ... shakespeare was successful because he
was able to reveal [it]
and my question to this listserv is ... will newmedia authors/artists be
able to reveal other aspects of the human ethos/character??????????????
personally i believe they will be able to reveal other aspects of our
common self.
>Everything in NEWMEDIA is NEW and the only way to deviate
> from that is if they give us something OLD ...
no disrespect ... but that is very simple logic. to base your arguement on
the semantics of the word "newmedia" reflects a rather shallow understanding
of the issue at hand.
david goldschmidtYou must be logged in to post a comment. Log In -
In a message dated 6/29/2002 1:13:55 PM Central Daylight Time,
invisible@cfl.rr.com writes:
> Shakespeare worked for the queen.
>
I hear ya baby, loud and clear. I agree he did work for whatsherscratch.
Yet I fear you are begging the question: If the current Queen bought my
photo collection for $1 million, would I be working for her? Yes but not in
the same sense SS was. (SS=ws)
Here's where people say I'm a new-age hustler. I refer them to the scene in
the Catcher in the Rye where Holden goes into the museum, says it's always
the same, but you're always different.
I'd call it different, distinct, not the same, if a present-day Queen of
England hired me to write plays for her.
Shakespeare's in PR now.
Double your triples,
Max Herman
genius2000.net
++You must be logged in to post a comment. Log In -
Not sure who writes:
> personally i believe they will be able to reveal other aspects of our
> common self.
>
Well said, now I agree with invisible. In part. Yes reveal is a good word,
and common self is a good word, but they are royal bitches. So that is
technically hard as steel--wheels of steel.
Put another way, Shakespeare was the language people "argued" about this shit
with, he was a radio talkshow man and fashion horse and god fucking name it.
One could argue.
Hotter'n piss out,
Jack Mackman
genius2000.net
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In a message dated 6/29/2002 3:30:35 PM Central Daylight Time,
dgoldsch@tampabay.rr.com writes:
> no disrespect ... but that is very simple logic. to base your arguement on
> the semantics of the word "newmedia" reflects a rather shallow
> understanding
> of the issue at hand.
>
> david goldschmidt
I wouldn't go that far, I think McLuhan's case about new media was pretty
thoughtful. I give g2k props to new media like webtechory, my own little
globe theater. Or send a letter to newmedia@aol.com, he invented the word.
Si'teen penny for a new millenny,
Max Herman
genius2000.net
http://www.geocities.com/genius-2000/kempfhut.JPG
++You must be logged in to post a comment. Log In -
KALX wrote:
>
>Well, Okay. So 8-track, beta, and VHS are all a product of technology. In this
>case outdated technology. The only reason why I mention these is because they
>all
>draw from the electronics arena which has widely expanded today to be all more
>inclusive, including the very things we use right now to implement html and
>other
>aforementioned languages.
>
The point you are missing is that beta and vhs were the technology used
to present film, and if you think
film hasn't given us any worthwhile art in its history, then you just
haven't seen any good films.
>But if the technology were not developed there would be no HTML from which to
>apply it. HTML is a product of technology, just like 8-track, beta, and VHS.
>
The thing is that VHS and Beta are different methods of distributing
cinema. The technology that serves
as the umbrella for these technologies was the zoetrope. The internet is
the equivalent to the zoetrope,
not VHS. The internet is it's own media, and needs to develop it's own
language and aesthetics. We're in
the phase where we are able to experiment- hence your video game
example- it's all attempting a new
aesthetic for net.art. I will tell you one thing, the first time I saw
JODI, I had a much stronger reaction
compared to the first time I read Hamlet.
>electronics of that time period facilitated the ability for these things to
>exist just as today's technology allows for programming languages to exist. Just
>because HTML
>is a language does not mean that it's not a product of technology.
>
So what?
>And also, just for the sheer versatility of the medium we are working with, it's
>stupid to say that someone in newmedia may reach Shakespeare proportions.
>
It's stupid to say they won't. There is a possibility in every media to
achieve greatness. We couldn't have said
at the invention of radio that there would never be an Ira Glass, we
couldn't have said at the start of cinema
that there would never be a Lynch or Wenders or Woody Allen. Or at the
invention of the synthesizer that
there would be no way to get emotion out of machines the way Richard D
James can. It's just absurd to say
that greatness is not possible in a medium because it is modern. If
anything, greatness is achievable in a new
medium because it is modern.
>Shakespeare succeeded in becoming what he is today because he contributed
>something that we had not had before. Nobody in newmedia could give us anything
>that we do not have.
>
This concept that everything that can be done has been done is an excuse
used by critics who can't make
art. We are at a recombinant phase of art history to be sure, but it is
ludicrous to assert that - even taking
this theory at face value, and focusing only on recycling- new
juxtapositions can not bring about new meanings
or that new ideas cannot arise out of juxtaposition. Of course they can.
The world has been the same since
the dawn of man. It's the lenses we see it with that change. We see it
through the lens of feudalism or democracy,
through the lens of automobiles as opposed to ox carts, with a lens of
efficiency and time vs inefficiency and
physical labor. [Not entirely a matter of modern vs archaic, either.]
>Everything in NEWMEDIA is NEW and the only way to deviate
>from that is if they give us something OLD, and that would be taking a step
>back. There is no room for advancement in newmedia, and nobody will excel more
>than the other unless we are speaking in monetary terms.
>
No room for advancement in New Media? The very existence of the internet
is not "advancement?" It
is the first time collective conciousness has been made into a
tangibility. How can you say that is not
progress? To play chess on the internet against someone in Australia in
real time is a phenomenon you
may have taken for granted, but take my word on it, it's radically
changed the possibilities for life on
this planet.
> Newmedia is simply a
>means of channeling money into our pockets, whilst pretending the product of the
>work is an end in itself.
>
Who is making money in new media?
>I will never see the day when a newmedia artist works for the queen.
>
And you probably won't see the black death either. But metaphorically
speaking, hierarchy is still
as present as ever in art, and that is what I would say is the problem.
The strength of the internet
is that a modern shakespeare doesn't have to be beloved by the queen.You must be logged in to post a comment. Log In -
> are you saying that one of the main reasons Shakespeare was so
> successful/influential is becasue he was using such as limited medium (pen &
> paper)? curious logic.
>
> shakespeare was NOT successful because he gave us something we never had
> before ... humans always had [it] ... shakespeare was successful because he
> was able to reveal [it]
>
> and my question to this listserv is ... will newmedia authors/artists be
> able to reveal other aspects of the human ethos/character??????????????
>
> personally i believe they will be able to reveal other aspects of our
> common self.
I believe the commodified nature of the medium will probably taint any evocative
power the medium has.
And if this proves untrue, that is yet to be seen. The only difference I should
cite between Shakespeare and newmedia is that newmedia has not proven its
staying power.
>
>
> >Everything in NEWMEDIA is NEW and the only way to deviate
> > from that is if they give us something OLD ...
>
> no disrespect ... but that is very simple logic. to base your arguement on
> the semantics of the word "newmedia" reflects a rather shallow understanding
> of the issue at hand.
Maybe. I haven't really been paying attention too closely to the latest
developments.
Pardon my complicity with simplicity.You must be logged in to post a comment. Log In -
ALPHA 60 SAYS STUFF YOURSELF WITH LOGIC
Nmherman@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 6/29/2002 3:30:35 PM Central Daylight Time, dgoldsch@tampabay.rr.com writes:
no disrespect ... but that is very simple logic. to base your arguement on
the semantics of the word "newmedia" reflects a rather shallow understanding
of the issue at hand.
david goldschmidt
I wouldn't go that far, I think McLuhan's case about new media was pretty thoughtful. I give g2k props to new media like webtechory, my own little globe theater. Or send a letter to newmedia@aol.com, he invented the word.
Si'teen penny for a new millenny,
Max Herman
genius2000.net
http://www.geocities.com/genius-2000/kempfhut.JPG
++
---------------------------------
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LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music ExperienceYou must be logged in to post a comment. Log In -
In a message dated 6/29/2002 10:39:46 PM Central Daylight Time,
invisible@cfl.rr.com writes:
> And if this proves untrue, that is yet to be seen. The only difference I
> should
> cite between Shakespeare and newmedia is that newmedia has not proven its
> staying power.
How splendid is it to be real and good. It has to do with archery,
metaversity, propinquity.
I do enjoy it so.
Max Herman
genius2000.net
http://205.180.85.40/w/pc.cgi?mid075&sidC66
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+++You must be logged in to post a comment. Log In -
In a message dated 6/29/2002 10:39:46 PM Central Daylight Time,
invisible@cfl.rr.com writes:
> > >Everything in NEWMEDIA is NEW and the only way to deviate
> > > from that is if they give us something OLD ...
I'd say this is fair and relevant. New media are new. It's a definite
reality that we tend to overlook or trivialize. I officially now claim to
have created a new world in my own image by creating the old via the
transient. I may be wrong but if I'm correct, then it is a relevant fact as
well. I agree in that I also feel a horror of the new. New, you could
almost say, could be the real axis of evil. One might compare it to being
buried alive? So many layers of new one might go nauseous. I don't worry
overmuch on it; it's a moot point because for the new to create anything is
totally undecided, crazed, hysterical, west. civ. gone nuthouse brainsers. I
side with whoever on this.
See I'm a master of language and rhetoric, it's my favorite. I am particular
expertise in newness versus oldness and power relations, chunking, rapping.
Max Herman
genius2000.net
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as the work of Shakespeare has, as dated as you may think it is. Just because
something is new doesn't mean it's going to have a lasting effect on anything.
To say html, xml, flash are the new grammar is like saying that 8-track and beta
(and now vhs) will always be around. It is the current dialect for the internet,
but it hasn't destroyed the relevance of history, and it surely won't prove to
be as long-lasting. The language of the internet is too ephemeral to put that
much significance in it. And too ephemeral to say that history that has had a
dramatic impact on our culture for centuries is no longer relevant. You might be
able to kill Shakespeare by simply overlooking it like the TV generation has
ignored books, but you can't deny their influence. And if TV and the internet
are the only things that you can draw upon as being relevant, then you cannot
hope to make an impact anywhere, because you're dilluting yourself in a media
that is so utterly disposable.
David Goldschmidt wrote:
> without getting too militant ... i think Killing Shakespeare is like a
> call-to-arms for the net.art community. why waste your time trying to
> explain to others how newmedia composition is better than TV, movies, etc
> ... that crap isn't even in the same history.
>
> for me, Killing Shakespeare is a signal ... a notice ... a wake-up call ...
> a warning to the rest of the world that human language is evolving and if
> you don't understand the language then you don't know what's going on. if
> you don't understand the language then you are not part of the conversation.
>
> Killing Shakespeare is not a call to appreciate net.art per se. it is media
> literacy. it is letting people know that the old grammar is not as relevant
> as it used to be ... and that the new-grammar (html, xml, flash, etc) is
> changing the way we see the world and ourselves.
>
> the phrase "killing shakespeare" may be a bit abrasive but that's what
> newmedia is doing (for better or for worse)
>
> david goldschmidt
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Max Herman" <maxherman@zipmail.com>
> To: "Max Herman" <maxherman@zipmail.com>; "David Goldschmidt"
> <dgoldsch@tampabay.rr.com>; <list@rhizome.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 3:53 PM
> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: killing shakespeare
>
> > On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:48:34 -0500
> > "Max Herman" <maxherman@zipmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 18:29:43 -0400
> > > "David Goldschmidt" <dgoldsch@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> > > > KILLING SHAKESPEARE
> >
> > I hope you don't think I was trying to dis you David. I
> > think you are on one of the right tracks, all of which
> > lead of course to Genius 2000. I also just remembered
> > it's Ezra Cornell, not Elias.
> >
> > Steady now 13,
> >
> > Max
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Remember thee!
> > > Ay, thou poor ghost, while memory holds a seat
> > > In this distracted globe. Remember thee!
> > > Yea, from the table of my memory
> > > I'll wipe away all trivial fond records,
> > > All saws of books, all forms, all pressures past,
> > > That youth and observation copied there;
> > > And thy commandment all alone shall live
> > > Within the book and volume of my brain,
> > > Unmix'd with baser matter....
> > >
> > > Act One Scene Four
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Did you ever wonder what would happen ... what was
> > > > suppose to happen ... when 500 million people connect?
> > > > When your mind imagined the possibilities did it get
> > > > stuck? Did it stop? Did you believe Wall Street and
> > > > Madison Avenue when they told you what the Internet
> > > was
> > > > ... and how it was to be used?
> > > >
> > > > I hope you didn't.
> > > >
> > > > In the late 1500s Shakespeare mastered the printed
> > > word.
> > > > He revolutionized human expression. He changed the way
> > > > we saw ourselves. "Personality, in our sense, is a
> > > > Shakespearean invention, and is not only Shakespeare's
> > > > greatest originality but also the authentic cause of
> > > his
> > > > perpetual pervasiveness." so says Harold Bloom, one of
> > > > America's most respected literary critics. According
> > > to
> > > > Bloom, Shakespeare "invented the human".
> > > >
> > > > It is happening again. We have discovered a new way to
> > > > express our common self. Last time Shakespeare did it
> > > > with mere words. We are not that limited.
> > > >
> > > > Silent film, AM radio, black & white television ... the
> > > > birth of these vehicles are monumental moments in the
> > > > evolution of man and society. As great as they were
> > > (and
> > > > have become) they have never been able to easily
> > > > overcome the basic tenets of telling a story (of
> > > sharing
> > > > the human experience). All follow the guidelines
> > > > established by Shakespeare hundreds of years ago.
> > > >
> > > > Killing Shakespeare is not a revolutionary technology
> > > > like the ones above but is instead, a simple
> > > > observation: human language is evolving.
> > > >
> > > > A simple observation that newmedia composition can
> > > > express (and share) the human experience in a way that
> > > > is not limited to the predictable patterns of film,
> > > > television and Shakespeare.
> > > >
> > > > Unlike film and television, newmedia compositions are
> > > not
> > > > telling a story. They offer an [experience]. Unlike
> > > film
> > > > and television, newmedia compositions are not passive.
> > > > You interact ... and your choices determine your
> > > > [experience].
> > > >
> > > > Newmedia artists are less interested in character
> > > > development and more interested in your experience
> > > (your
> > > > development). In other words, as you interact with
> > > > newmedia creations the only character being developed
> > > is
> > > > ... YOU.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > david goldschmidt
> > > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________________________
> > > Don't E-Mail, ZipMail! http://www.zipmail.com/
> > > + i get yr point. yr so sharp.
> > > -> Rhizome.org
> > > -> post: list@rhizome.org
> > > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
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> > > +
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> >
> > ________________________________________________
> > Don't E-Mail, ZipMail! http://www.zipmail.com/
>
> + i get yr point. yr so sharp.
> -> Rhizome.org
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