adobe acquires macromedia

Now, this is very interesting!
I wonder about the cross-overs, such as Fireworks/Photoshop,
Dreamweaver & Adobe's web editor, etc. In My opinion, there iseems to
be a real possibility for horizontal monopoly.

Oh, yes - I think we can then say goodbye to Director, most likely.

Not sure I like this, but then, it's not for me to like.

Patrick Lichty
Editor-In-Chief
Intelligent Agent Magazine
http://www.intelligentagent.com
1556 Clough Street, #28
Bowling Green, OH 43402
225 288 5813
[email protected]

"It is better to die on your feet
than to live on your knees."


—–Original Message—–
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Jim Andrews
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:14 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: adobe acquires macromedia

http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/invrelations/adobeandmacromedia.html
http://www.macromedia.com/macromedia/proom/pr/2005/adobe_macromedia.html
http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID

> Now, this is very interesting!
> I wonder about the cross-overs, such as Fireworks/Photoshop,
> Dreamweaver & Adobe's web editor, etc. In My opinion, there iseems to
> be a real possibility for horizontal monopoly.
>
> Oh, yes - I think we can then say goodbye to Director, most likely.

Why?

I don't know why Macromedia is letting themselves be acquired by Adobe,
really. Macromedia has the more interesting products, to my mind. I don't
even use Photoshop anymore; i use CorelPaint. And PDFs are nice very nice
but please. Adobe just hasn't got the Web or multimedia touch?

As for Director, people have been saying it's gonna die any day now for
years. Yet there's still a lot of serious work done with it online and
offline. Mostly offline, actually. The Director lists are active and
sparklingly intelligent. So I guess we'll see how that goes. Bread circuses
and mergers.

ja
http://vispo.com

> Oh, yes - I think we can then say goodbye to Director, most likely.

Why?

-> Because Director has been getting less airplay in industry and in the
technical press. One of the sure signs of an application that might be
on the way to discontinuation is a drop in numbers of technical books on
it. I'm not saying that this is a definitive proclamation; merely my
experience over 15-odd years. I sincerely hope it isn't the case, as I
just started seriously using it.

I don't know why Macromedia is letting themselves be acquired by Adobe,
really. Macromedia has the more interesting products, to my mind. I
don't
even use Photoshop anymore; i use CorelPaint. And PDFs are nice very
nice
but please. Adobe just hasn't got the Web or multimedia touch?

-> Exactly. I couldn't agree more. I would not be surprised if this
were not a hostile takeover as well.

As for Director, people have been saying it's gonna die any day now for
years. Yet there's still a lot of serious work done with it online and
offline. Mostly offline, actually. The Director lists are active and
sparklingly intelligent. So I guess we'll see how that goes. Bread
circuses
and mergers.

-> Again, I agree. I hope it keeps hanging on; my bet is that since
it's really the de facto standard for CD multimedia development, it'll
continue on.

ja
http://vispo.com


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On Monday, April 18, 2005, at 12:09PM, Jim Andrews <[email protected]> wrote:

>I don't know why Macromedia is letting themselves be acquired by Adobe,
>really.

Because they are a sinking ship? Read FuckedCompany, MM really need restructuring. :-)

As for Adobe not having any "web magic", possibly that's why they're raiding MM's topybox? ;-)

- Rob.

I can see things like Freehand folding into Illustrator. Adobe has the ace
in Illustrator, there. I'm not aware of an Adobe tool, however, that's
comparable to Director–except Flash. But Flash is mainly for Web stuff and
interesting as it is, it doesn't have the framerate that you can get in
Director. Nor the granularity. And the extensibility via Xtras. Nor 3D. Nor
access down to the pixel concerning bitmaps. Nor the range of the Director
audio API.

Perhaps in a few years Flash will reach the stage where it truly is a better
tool for application-level multimedia than Director is. But I don't see
evidence of it yet. Flash will eventually kill Director, I imagine, but I
don't think it's there yet.

Since Adobe doesn't have anything like Director, it's a question of whether
they think the day has come that Flash can fulfill the needs of the Director
market, and whether the Director market is big enough to bother with. The
answer to the first one is clear: no. The answer to the second, well, I hear
Flash outsells Director ten to one. So I suspect that the market size will
be the more problematical issue. But I think Director has been making money.
Nowhere near as much as Flash. But it isn't a losing business proposition.
So we'll see.

ja
http://vispo.com

I can see things like Freehand folding into Illustrator. Adobe has the
ace
in Illustrator, there. I'm not aware of an Adobe tool, however, that's
comparable to Director–except Flash. But Flash is mainly for Web stuff
and
interesting as it is, it doesn't have the framerate that you can get in
Director. Nor the granularity. And the extensibility via Xtras. Nor 3D.
Nor
access down to the pixel concerning bitmaps. Nor the range of the
Director
audio API.

-> Yes, but that might not mean that Adobe might not 'somehow' see that
Director might not be a viable line. As mentioned, I think Director has
a solid niche; I'm just wondering.

Since Adobe doesn't have anything like Director, it's a question of
whether
they think the day has come that Flash can fulfill the needs of the
Director
market, and whether the Director market is big enough to bother with.

-> On the nose. Another scenario is to spin off Director to another
company.

The answer to the second, well, I hear
Flash outsells Director ten to one. So I suspect that the market size
will
be the more problematical issue. But I think Director has been making
money.
Nowhere near as much as Flash. But it isn't a losing business
proposition.

Yes, but it might not be as profitable as Adobe wants. Again, something
to watch.

Atode,
Patrick

Yes, well it's certainly up in the air, isn't it. They might not be able to
handle anything as 'small' as Director's market, as you say. In which case
they'd either can it or sell it. I think it'd be hard to can. Because there
is a genuine market for it whose needs aren't met by other products. Though,
you know, if they can it, well, those of us who use it would either move on
to other tools or steal the source code and release it publicly. That'd be a
very interesting trip to San Francisco, wouldn't it? Or Seattle, as the case
may be. Then again, coding from a prison cell, well, I guess that doesn't
happen much.

It's been around since 1987 and has survived. Improbably. It's whole
existence is improbable. It's mainly for artists. Though of course those who
mainly foot the bill, buy it most, are industrial multi-media companies. As
in pharmaceutical multi-media etc. It hasn't really gone 'the enterprise
route'. Never has. Probably can't, by now. The architecture is too fucked up
for that. Too much baggage. Ha. Like some people I know and love.

So releasing the source code publicly like Netscape did, dunno, it'd
certainly be a puzzle. No one person knows the whole thing since it's been
around since 1987. I wonder what the documentation is like?

ja
http://vispo.com

Well Adobe would be getting them both if they aquire MM.
The integration of both toolkits is fine with me , but, not having any
competition could make them lazy.
Lee
On 4/18/05 7:52 AM, "Jim Andrews" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I can see things like Freehand folding into Illustrator. Adobe has the ace
> in Illustrator, there. I'm not aware of an Adobe tool, however, that's
> comparable to Director–except Flash. But Flash is mainly for Web stuff and
> interesting as it is, it doesn't have the framerate that you can get in
> Director. Nor the granularity. And the extensibility via Xtras. Nor 3D. Nor
> access down to the pixel concerning bitmaps. Nor the range of the Director
> audio API.
>
> Perhaps in a few years Flash will reach the stage where it truly is a better
> tool for application-level multimedia than Director is. But I don't see
> evidence of it yet. Flash will eventually kill Director, I imagine, but I
> don't think it's there yet.
>
> Since Adobe doesn't have anything like Director, it's a question of whether
> they think the day has come that Flash can fulfill the needs of the Director
> market, and whether the Director market is big enough to bother with. The
> answer to the first one is clear: no. The answer to the second, well, I hear
> Flash outsells Director ten to one. So I suspect that the market size will
> be the more problematical issue. But I think Director has been making money.
> Nowhere near as much as Flash. But it isn't a losing business proposition.
> So we'll see.
>
> ja
> http://vispo.com
>
>
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–
Lee Wells
Brooklyn, NY 11222

http://www.leewells.org
917 723 2524

Well there's always SVG.

Oh.

More seriously for net art there's Processing. Maybe that will spill over into mainstream multimedia as people build on it as a platform?

- Rob.

On Monday, April 18, 2005, at 03:01PM, Lee Wells <[email protected]> wrote:

>Well Adobe would be getting them both if they aquire MM.
>The integration of both toolkits is fine with me , but, not having any
>competition could make them lazy.

On Apr 18, 2005, at 6:59 AM, Jim Andrews wrote:
> And PDFs are nice very nice
> but please. Adobe just hasn't got the Web or multimedia touch?

I don't have much of an opinion on most of this story, since I almost
never use any of the tools made by either of these vendors. (Maybe I
fire up ImageReady once a week to tweak a web graphic.) But I have to
disagree with this: The PDF format is hugely important. Why? Because
it's the backbone of imaging on OS X. 2D pictures rendered to the
screen on modern Macs are images turned into the PDF format before
they're sent to your monitor. And, although a lot of Mac users don't
know this, every single document that can be printed can be saved to
PDF, too.

It's funny, but Apple's move to use PDF may end up making it the
standard for its field, in spite of its closed nature. Of course, there
are lots of places where PDF is a completely inappropriate choice: It's
not so great online or in emails touting your next art opening … but
if you want to publish documents in a way where you can guarantee
they'll look and print the same way on another computer, PDF is the way
to do it today.

Francis Hwang
Director of Technology
Rhizome.org
phone: 212-219-1288x202
AIM: francisrhizome
+ + +

Actually a PDF file is an open-standard that can be used royalty-free.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_Document_Format



On Monday 18 April 2005 10:33 am, Francis Hwang wrote:
> On Apr 18, 2005, at 6:59 AM, Jim Andrews wrote:
> > And PDFs are nice very nice
> > but please. Adobe just hasn't got the Web or multimedia touch?
>
> I don't have much of an opinion on most of this story, since I almost
> never use any of the tools made by either of these vendors. (Maybe I
> fire up ImageReady once a week to tweak a web graphic.) But I have to
> disagree with this: The PDF format is hugely important. Why? Because
> it's the backbone of imaging on OS X. 2D pictures rendered to the
> screen on modern Macs are images turned into the PDF format before
> they're sent to your monitor. And, although a lot of Mac users don't
> know this, every single document that can be printed can be saved to
> PDF, too.
>
> It's funny, but Apple's move to use PDF may end up making it the
> standard for its field, in spite of its closed nature. Of course, there
> are lots of places where PDF is a completely inappropriate choice: It's
> not so great online or in emails touting your next art opening … but
> if you want to publish documents in a way where you can guarantee
> they'll look and print the same way on another computer, PDF is the way
> to do it today.
>
> Francis Hwang
> Director of Technology
> Rhizome.org
> phone: 212-219-1288x202
> AIM: francisrhizome
> + + +
>
> +
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> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php

–
–

Robert Spahr
http://www.robertspahr.com

On the heath Lear asks Gloucester: "How do you see the world?"
And Gloucester, who is blind, answers: "I see it feelingly."

> It's funny, but Apple's move to use PDF may end up making it the
> standard for its field, in spite of its closed nature.

Closed nature? PDF is an open standard. It's publicly available,
royalty-free.


> Francis Hwang
> Director of Technology
> Rhizome.org
> phone: 212-219-1288x202
> AIM: francisrhizome
> + + +
>
> +
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> +
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> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

–
_______________________________
Pall Thayer
artist/teacher
http://www.this.is/pallit
http://pallit.lhi.is/panse

Lorna
http://www.this.is/lorna
_______________________________

hi all,

some of my thoughts, here as well:
http://www.mteww.com/mtaaRR/news/twhid/geek/
adobe\_to\_acquire\_macromedia.html

1. GoLive will GoAway. (will anyone care?)

2. Hopefully they'll take Illustrator's tools and interface and slap
Flash's timeline and actionscript onto it. At the very least, we'll get
beefed-up interoperability between Illustrator and Flash and PDF (which
would be extremely helpful). This seems like the most hoped for
development after read /. comments.

3. Since Adobe was pushing SVG as an alternative to Flash, I wonder if
they'll keep promoting it? Not that they were doing a particularly good
job.

4. Fireworks will go away. (will anyone care?) This application has
always suffered because of Photoshop's dominance.

5. Wonder if they'll build any bridges between After Effects and
Director? Imagine including an After Effects project as a

hello
>
> 8. Import Flash animations into After Effects? Holy shit! That would be
> great.

not sure if you are being sarcastic (?) but if not, you can do this already btw
- unless you mean maintaining interactivity which would be cool.

jess.

I think they should just take all of Macromedias stuff and give it to the
open-source community. That would be cool. That would make me love adobe.


On Mon, 18 Apr 2005, Jess Loseby wrote:

> hello
> >
> > 8. Import Flash animations into After Effects? Holy shit! That would be
> > great.
>
> not sure if you are being sarcastic (?) but if not, you can do this already btw
> - unless you mean maintaining interactivity which would be cool.
>
> jess.
> +
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> +
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> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

–
Pall Thayer
artist/teacher
http://www.this.is/pallit
http://130.208.220.190/
http://130.208.220.190/nuharm
http://130.208.220.190/panse

Hi Jess,

I didn't know that. So I guess it should be:

#8 enhance the ability to import Flash animations into After Effects :-)

On Apr 18, 2005, at 12:16 PM, Jess Loseby wrote:

> hello
>>
>> 8. Import Flash animations into After Effects? Holy shit! That would
>> be
>> great.
>
> not sure if you are being sarcastic (?) but if not, you can do this
> already btw
> - unless you mean maintaining interactivity which would be cool.
>
> jess.

===
<twhid>http://www.mteww.com</twhid>
===

twhid,

by and large agree, especially just about competition being a good thing.

(thought i saw you in real life this weekend, in the EV (a wedding at
ontological for a web techy guy you may even know). but since we've
never met face to face, wasn't sure. was that you?)


>1. GoLive will GoAway. (will anyone care?)
>
>2. Hopefully they'll take Illustrator's tools and interface and slap
>Flash's timeline and actionscript onto it. At the very least, we'll
>get beefed-up interoperability between Illustrator and Flash and PDF
>(which would be extremely helpful). This seems like the most hoped
>for development after read /. comments.

timelines, particularly the one in flash, are like those "ascent of
man" drawings from ape to homo sapien. people assume they make
things clear, but are actually totally misleading. those 4
human-like species came about and died out separately (though yes,
that IS the approximate chronology). you could just as well replace
say the neanderthal with a wooly mammoth. but no one thinks of that,
wouldn't understand/recognize. just like non-linear-ness is an
essential concept to adopt, in order to move on past "time based"
notions.

>
>3. Since Adobe was pushing SVG as an alternative to Flash, I wonder
>if they'll keep promoting it? Not that they were doing a
>particularly good job.
>
>4. Fireworks will go away. (will anyone care?) This application has
>always suffered because of Photoshop's dominance.
>
>5. Wonder if they'll build any bridges between After Effects and
>Director? Imagine including an After Effects project as a 'live
>object' within Director, that could be cool.
>
>6. Nothing will happen to InDesign
>
>7. Hopefully they'll build better font support into Flash. Flash's
>font handling sucks hard.
>
>8. Import Flash animations into After Effects? Holy shit! That would be great.

(twhid: you probably know about this, but for director->imovie->idvd,
it's really helpful to use a screenshot/QT utility (optionally
records audio). (when D exports to QT, ignores lingo) doubt it'd
work without osx (not a prob for you) since PC's suffer from CPU
overload so easily.)

>
>and I'll add:
>
>hopefully the GUI in Flash will be fixed because it's dismal now.
>
>This is probably not the best thing to happen. Adobe and MM were
>competing in two key areas: web dev tools (golive and dreamweaver)

dreamweaver "sucks hard" if you program. generates a mess of
spaghetti code and then makes the web look like one big drop down
menu choice. flash and dreamweaver (but NOT director) quietly
encourage you to do the ordinary, expected, "color in the lines", not
to experiment with programming much beyond the imagination of some
bone-headest designer. that brings the average of creativity and
innovation on the web way way down. and ultimately users come to
expect a limit.


> and vector graphics on the web (pdf v. swf). Now that competition
>will end which is probably not a good thing.


what ever happened to (MM) fontographer? that was the greatest,
created fonts in various formats/sizes for a bunch of platforms. is
there anything equivalent now?
–

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PLASMA STUDII
art non-profit
stages * galleries * the web
PO Box 1086
Cathedral Station
New York, USA

(on-line press kit)
http://plasmastudii.org

On 18 Apr 2005, at 16:34, t.whid wrote:

> 2. Hopefully they'll take Illustrator's tools and interface and slap
> Flash's timeline and actionscript onto it. At the very least, we'll
> get beefed-up interoperability between Illustrator and Flash and PDF
> (which would be extremely helpful). This seems like the most hoped for
> development after read /. comments.

Illustrator is my tool of choice for making my art. I'd hate to see it
encumbered with a timeline and scripting language that I don't need.

Indeed making an "Office"-bloated app out of Illustrator, Flash and
whatever else is a bad idea and would alienate Adobe's core print
business.

> 3. Since Adobe was pushing SVG as an alternative to Flash, I wonder if
> they'll keep promoting it? Not that they were doing a particularly
> good job.

It's *the* open format for vector graphics. See Inkscape &
openclipart.org.

> This is probably not the best thing to happen. Adobe and MM were
> competing in two key areas: web dev tools (golive and dreamweaver)

No real competition: MM were winning hands down on the web. So MM will
complement Adobe's print business with their web business.

> and vector graphics on the web (pdf v. swf).

PDF/SVG are like chalk and cheese. Both vector formats, yes, but
structurally, functionally and experientially very different.

> Now that competition will end which is probably not a good thing.

The competition will come from the open source community. Possibly this
is proprietary design software circling the wagons?

Adobe developed the imaging model behind PostScript, PDF, SVG, Java 2D
and MacOS X. From an artistic or philosophical point of view they're a
fascinating company, they have defined how people have imaged the world
using 2D software.

- Rob.

On Apr 18, 2005, at 1:31 PM, Rob Myers wrote:

> On 18 Apr 2005, at 16:34, t.whid wrote:
>
>> 2. Hopefully they'll take Illustrator's tools and interface and slap
>> Flash's timeline and actionscript onto it. At the very least, we'll
>> get beefed-up interoperability between Illustrator and Flash and PDF
>> (which would be extremely helpful). This seems like the most hoped
>> for development after read /. comments.
>
> Illustrator is my tool of choice for making my art. I'd hate to see it
> encumbered with a timeline and scripting language that I don't need.
>
> Indeed making an "Office"-bloated app out of Illustrator, Flash and
> whatever else is a bad idea and would alienate Adobe's core print
> business.

Flash's drawing tools suck. Hard. Ever since I started using flash I've
hoped for Illustrator's drawing tools married to Flash's animation and
programming features. This needn't get in the way of print designers;
it depends on how it's developed. Just update Flash with Illustrator's
drawing tools and leave Illustrator alone or package it as an
Illustrator plugin.

This will be a net plus for Flash, at the very least they'll fix it's
fucked up GUI.

>
>> 3. Since Adobe was pushing SVG as an alternative to Flash, I wonder
>> if they'll keep promoting it? Not that they were doing a particularly
>> good job.
>
> It's *the* open format for vector graphics. See Inkscape &
> openclipart.org.

I'm not dissing SVG. It's profile is still low compared to other vector
formats which is a big shame. The fact that flash is installed in >90\%
of browsers really hurts SVG on the web. There is yet to be a browser
that supports it natively.

>
>> This is probably not the best thing to happen. Adobe and MM were
>> competing in two key areas: web dev tools (golive and dreamweaver)
>
> No real competition: MM were winning hands down on the web. So MM will
> complement Adobe's print business with their web business.

I don't use either one so I could give a damn, but having Adobe attempt
to unseat DW was probably a good thing for DW users.

>
>> and vector graphics on the web (pdf v. swf).
>
> PDF/SVG are like chalk and cheese. Both vector formats, yes, but
> structurally, functionally and experientially very different.

MM was attempting to bust into the PDF space with all the printing
features in Flash, they mostly failed, but the competition was good.
Now it will be gone.

>
>> Now that competition will end which is probably not a good thing.
>
> The competition will come from the open source community. Possibly
> this is proprietary design software circling the wagons?

Before this takeover, Adobe was competing against MM and OSS, now it's
just OSS. Net loss. I don't see any major competition coming from OSS
at this point however. What OSS projects are giving Adobe serious
competition? the Gimp v. Photoshop? That's laughable (unfortunately, I
would love a free, decent bitmap tool). Is there even an Illustrator
equivalent of the Gimp? Or After Effects? At least Adobe is getting
more competition from Apple these days…

>
> Adobe developed the imaging model behind PostScript, PDF, SVG, Java 2D
> and MacOS X. From an artistic or philosophical point of view they're a
> fascinating company, they have defined how people have imaged the
> world using 2D software.
>
> - Rob.

===
<twhid>http://www.mteww.com</twhid>
===

since the flash player is open now, things like php's
minglib already enable this to an extent—



— Pall Thayer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I think they should just take all of Macromedias
> stuff and give it to the
> open-source community. That would be cool. That
> would make me love adobe.
>
>
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2005, Jess Loseby wrote:
>
> > hello
> > >
> > > 8. Import Flash animations into After Effects?
> Holy shit! That would be
> > > great.
> >
> > not sure if you are being sarcastic (?) but if
> not, you can do this already btw
> > - unless you mean maintaining interactivity which
> would be cool.
> >
> > jess.
> > +
> > -> post: [email protected]
> > -> questions: [email protected]
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> open to non-members
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms
> set out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at
> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >
>
> –
> Pall Thayer
> artist/teacher
> http://www.this.is/pallit
> http://130.208.220.190/
> http://130.208.220.190/nuharm
> http://130.208.220.190/panse
>
>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at
> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>



***************************************************************************
No More Movements…

Lewis LaCook
–>Poet-Programmer|||http://www.lewislacook.com/|||

Web Programmer|||http://www.corporatepa.com/|||

XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog->
http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/

Collective Writing Projects–> Appendix M
->http://www.lewislacook.com/AppendixM/







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***************************************************************************
No More Movements…

Lewis LaCook –>Poet-Programmer|||http://www.lewislacook.com/|||

Web Programmer|||http://www.corporatepa.com/|||

XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog-> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/

Collective Writing Projects–> Appendix M ->http://www.lewislacook.com/AppendixM/







__________________________________
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Since when is the flash player open?

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005, I Poop Rainbows wrote:

> since the flash player is open now, things like php's
> minglib already enable this to an extent—
>
>
>
> — Pall Thayer <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > I think they should just take all of Macromedias
> > stuff and give it to the
> > open-source community. That would be cool. That
> > would make me love adobe.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 18 Apr 2005, Jess Loseby wrote:
> >
> > > hello
> > > >
> > > > 8. Import Flash animations into After Effects?
> > Holy shit! That would be
> > > > great.
> > >
> > > not sure if you are being sarcastic (?) but if
> > not, you can do this already btw
> > > - unless you mean maintaining interactivity which
> > would be cool.
> > >
> > > jess.
> > > +
> > > -> post: [email protected]
> > > -> questions: [email protected]
> > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > > -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> > open to non-members
> > > +
> > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms
> > set out in the
> > > Membership Agreement available online at
> > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> > >
> >
> > –
> > Pall Thayer
> > artist/teacher
> > http://www.this.is/pallit
> > http://130.208.220.190/
> > http://130.208.220.190/nuharm
> > http://130.208.220.190/panse
> >
> >
> > +
> > -> post: [email protected]
> > -> questions: [email protected]
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> > open to non-members
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> > out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at
> > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >
>
>
>
> ***************************************************************************
> No More Movements…
>
> Lewis LaCook
> –>Poet-Programmer|||http://www.lewislacook.com/|||
>
> Web Programmer|||http://www.corporatepa.com/|||
>
> XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog->
> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/
>
> Collective Writing Projects–> Appendix M
> ->http://www.lewislacook.com/AppendixM/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000
> guides!
> http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide
>
>
>
> ***************************************************************************
> No More Movements…
>
> Lewis LaCook –>Poet-Programmer|||http://www.lewislacook.com/|||
>
> Web Programmer|||http://www.corporatepa.com/|||
>
> XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog-> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/
>
> Collective Writing Projects–> Appendix M ->http://www.lewislacook.com/AppendixM/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides!
> http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide
>

–
Pall Thayer
artist/teacher
http://www.this.is/pallit
http://130.208.220.190/
http://130.208.220.190/nuharm
http://130.208.220.190/panse

http://www.macromedia.com/software/flashplayer/productinfo/faq/#item-3-4


— Pall Thayer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Since when is the flash player open?
>
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2005, I Poop Rainbows wrote:
>
> > since the flash player is open now, things like
> php's
> > minglib already enable this to an extent—
> >
> >
> >
> > — Pall Thayer <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > I think they should just take all of Macromedias
> > > stuff and give it to the
> > > open-source community. That would be cool. That
> > > would make me love adobe.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, 18 Apr 2005, Jess Loseby wrote:
> > >
> > > > hello
> > > > >
> > > > > 8. Import Flash animations into After
> Effects?
> > > Holy shit! That would be
> > > > > great.
> > > >
> > > > not sure if you are being sarcastic (?) but if
> > > not, you can do this already btw
> > > > - unless you mean maintaining interactivity
> which
> > > would be cool.
> > > >
> > > > jess.
> > > > +
> > > > -> post: [email protected]
> > > > -> questions: [email protected]
> > > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > > > -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site
> is
> > > open to non-members
> > > > +
> > > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the
> terms
> > > set out in the
> > > > Membership Agreement available online at
> > > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> > > >
> > >
> > > –
> > > Pall Thayer
> > > artist/teacher
> > > http://www.this.is/pallit
> > > http://130.208.220.190/
> > > http://130.208.220.190/nuharm
> > > http://130.208.220.190/panse
> > >
> > >
> > > +
> > > -> post: [email protected]
> > > -> questions: [email protected]
> > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > > -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> > > open to non-members
> > > +
> > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms
> set
> > > out in the
> > > Membership Agreement available online at
> > > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
***************************************************************************
> > No More Movements…
> >
> > Lewis LaCook
> >
> –>Poet-Programmer|||http://www.lewislacook.com/|||
> >
> > Web Programmer|||http://www.corporatepa.com/|||
> >
> > XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog->
> > http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/
> >
> > Collective Writing Projects–> Appendix M
> > ->http://www.lewislacook.com/AppendixM/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over
> 17,000
> > guides!
> > http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
***************************************************************************
> > No More Movements…
> >
> > Lewis LaCook
> –>Poet-Programmer|||http://www.lewislacook.com/|||
> >
> > Web Programmer|||http://www.corporatepa.com/|||
> >
> > XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog->
> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/
> >
> > Collective Writing Projects–> Appendix M
> ->http://www.lewislacook.com/AppendixM/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over
> 17,000 guides!
> > http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide
> >
>
> –
> Pall Thayer
> artist/teacher
> http://www.this.is/pallit
> http://130.208.220.190/
> http://130.208.220.190/nuharm
> http://130.208.220.190/panse
>
>
>



***************************************************************************
No More Movements…

Lewis LaCook
–>Poet-Programmer|||http://www.lewislacook.com/|||

Web Programmer|||http://www.corporatepa.com/|||

XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog->
http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/

Collective Writing Projects–> Appendix M
->http://www.lewislacook.com/AppendixM/





__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com



***************************************************************************
No More Movements…

Lewis LaCook –>Poet-Programmer|||http://www.lewislacook.com/|||

Web Programmer|||http://www.corporatepa.com/|||

XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog-> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/

Collective Writing Projects–> Appendix M ->http://www.lewislacook.com/AppendixM/







__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides!
http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide

Pall Thayer wrote:

>
> Since when is the flash player open?
>

As far as i can tell, the SWF format specification is open–that is, it is free from licenses. But the Flash source code isn't–Flash 6 source code development requires SDK licensing.

More here:
http://www.macromedia.com/software/flash/open/licensing/fileformat/faq.html

–
Brandon Barr
http://texturl.net

Huh. I don't know why I thought PDF was closed, I guess the association
of Adobe made me just assume. Thanks for the correction.

Francis Hwang
Director of Technology
Rhizome.org
phone: 212-219-1288x202
AIM: francisrhizome
+ + +
On Apr 18, 2005, at 10:57 AM, Robert Spahr wrote:

> Actually a PDF file is an open-standard that can be used royalty-free.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_Document_Format
>
>
>
> On Monday 18 April 2005 10:33 am, Francis Hwang wrote:
>> On Apr 18, 2005, at 6:59 AM, Jim Andrews wrote:
>>> And PDFs are nice very nice
>>> but please. Adobe just hasn't got the Web or multimedia touch?
>>
>> I don't have much of an opinion on most of this story, since I almost
>> never use any of the tools made by either of these vendors. (Maybe I
>> fire up ImageReady once a week to tweak a web graphic.) But I have to
>> disagree with this: The PDF format is hugely important. Why? Because
>> it's the backbone of imaging on OS X. 2D pictures rendered to the
>> screen on modern Macs are images turned into the PDF format before
>> they're sent to your monitor. And, although a lot of Mac users don't
>> know this, every single document that can be printed can be saved to
>> PDF, too.
>>
>> It's funny, but Apple's move to use PDF may end up making it the
>> standard for its field, in spite of its closed nature. Of course,
>> there
>> are lots of places where PDF is a completely inappropriate choice:
>> It's
>> not so great online or in emails touting your next art opening … but
>> if you want to publish documents in a way where you can guarantee
>> they'll look and print the same way on another computer, PDF is the
>> way
>> to do it today.
>>
>> Francis Hwang
>> Director of Technology
>> Rhizome.org
>> phone: 212-219-1288x202
>> AIM: francisrhizome
>> + + +
>>
>> +
>> -> post: [email protected]
>> -> questions: [email protected]
>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
>> +
>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>> Membership Agreement available online at
>> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
> –
> –
>
> Robert Spahr
> http://www.robertspahr.com
>
> On the heath Lear asks Gloucester: "How do you see the world?"
> And Gloucester, who is blind, answers: "I see it feelingly."
>

hmmm… that looks like a pretty 'closed' open to me. You have to
'request' a license and if you're planning on including your application
with a device you have to pay a royalty fee.

"Macromedia Flash Player SDK is a commercial product"
http://www.macromedia.com/software/flashplayer_sdk/productinfo/faq/#item-1-1

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005, I Poop Rainbows wrote:

> http://www.macromedia.com/software/flashplayer/productinfo/faq/#item-3-4
>
>
> — Pall Thayer <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Since when is the flash player open?
> >
> > On Mon, 18 Apr 2005, I Poop Rainbows wrote:
> >
> > > since the flash player is open now, things like
> > php's
> > > minglib already enable this to an extent—
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > — Pall Thayer <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I think they should just take all of Macromedias
> > > > stuff and give it to the
> > > > open-source community. That would be cool. That
> > > > would make me love adobe.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 18 Apr 2005, Jess Loseby wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > hello
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 8. Import Flash animations into After
> > Effects?
> > > > Holy shit! That would be
> > > > > > great.
> > > > >
> > > > > not sure if you are being sarcastic (?) but if
> > > > not, you can do this already btw
> > > > > - unless you mean maintaining interactivity
> > which
> > > > would be cool.
> > > > >
> > > > > jess.
> > > > > +
> > > > > -> post: [email protected]
> > > > > -> questions: [email protected]
> > > > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > > > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > > > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > > > > -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site
> > is
> > > > open to non-members
> > > > > +
> > > > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the
> > terms
> > > > set out in the
> > > > > Membership Agreement available online at
> > > > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > –
> > > > Pall Thayer
> > > > artist/teacher
> > > > http://www.this.is/pallit
> > > > http://130.208.220.190/
> > > > http://130.208.220.190/nuharm
> > > > http://130.208.220.190/panse
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > +
> > > > -> post: [email protected]
> > > > -> questions: [email protected]
> > > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > > > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > > > -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> > > > open to non-members
> > > > +
> > > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms
> > set
> > > > out in the
> > > > Membership Agreement available online at
> > > > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> ***************************************************************************
> > > No More Movements…
> > >
> > > Lewis LaCook
> > >
> > –>Poet-Programmer|||http://www.lewislacook.com/|||
> > >
> > > Web Programmer|||http://www.corporatepa.com/|||
> > >
> > > XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog->
> > > http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/
> > >
> > > Collective Writing Projects–> Appendix M
> > > ->http://www.lewislacook.com/AppendixM/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over
> > 17,000
> > > guides!
> > > http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> ***************************************************************************
> > > No More Movements…
> > >
> > > Lewis LaCook
> > –>Poet-Programmer|||http://www.lewislacook.com/|||
> > >
> > > Web Programmer|||http://www.corporatepa.com/|||
> > >
> > > XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog->
> > http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/
> > >
> > > Collective Writing Projects–> Appendix M
> > ->http://www.lewislacook.com/AppendixM/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over
> > 17,000 guides!
> > > http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide
> > >
> >
> > –
> > Pall Thayer
> > artist/teacher
> > http://www.this.is/pallit
> > http://130.208.220.190/
> > http://130.208.220.190/nuharm
> > http://130.208.220.190/panse
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ***************************************************************************
> No More Movements…
>
> Lewis LaCook
> –>Poet-Programmer|||http://www.lewislacook.com/|||
>
> Web Programmer|||http://www.corporatepa.com/|||
>
> XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog->
> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/
>
> Collective Writing Projects–> Appendix M
> ->http://www.lewislacook.com/AppendixM/
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> ***************************************************************************
> No More Movements…
>
> Lewis LaCook –>Poet-Programmer|||http://www.lewislacook.com/|||
>
> Web Programmer|||http://www.corporatepa.com/|||
>
> XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog-> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/
>
> Collective Writing Projects–> Appendix M ->http://www.lewislacook.com/AppendixM/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides!
> http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

–
Pall Thayer
artist/teacher
http://www.this.is/pallit
http://130.208.220.190/
http://130.208.220.190/nuharm
http://130.208.220.190/panse

> I think they should just take all of Macromedias stuff and give it to the
> open-source community. That would be cool. That would make me love adobe.
>
>
yes, very cool

*sings tunelessly* dreaming, dream, dream dreeee-am, dreaaamming

:)

What I'd really like to see is adobe drawing tools in Flash - that'll be nice (and save me
the "multi-app shuffle" on my desktop)

Fireworks has sat on my machine for years until recently, funny enough, when I needed
to convert large vids into gifs for "eating canvas" (yeah, I know you "shouldn't" do that
but how else do you embed vid into html so you can layer it without a plugin??). All
trusty photoshop apps rolled over and laughed when trying to render them but fireworks
managed it. strange.

Personally, I hate pdfs but that's usually because people try and crash my in-box with
them.

jess.


> I can see things like Freehand folding into Illustrator. Adobe has the ace
> in Illustrator, there. I'm not aware of an Adobe tool, however, that's
> comparable to Director–except Flash. But Flash is mainly for Web stuff and
> interesting as it is, it doesn't have the framerate that you can get in
> Director.

> I think they should just take all of Macromedias stuff and give it to the
> open-source community. That would be cool. That would make me love adobe.
>
>
yes, very cool

*sings tunelessly* dreaming, dream, dream dreeee-am, dreaaamming

:)

> I think they should just take all of Macromedias stuff and give it to the
> open-source community. That would be cool. That would make me love adobe.
>
>
yes, very cool

*sings tunelessly* dreaming, dream, dream dreeee-am, dreaaamming

:)

They could combine Freehand and Illustrator into 'Frustrator'.

That's a comment from Tom Rockwell on a Director list. The thread name is
"Let the doom-thinking commence".

ja

They probably would not sell Director. It could pose tough competition for
Flash if a company prepared to really work it got hold of it. They will
probably not can it and probably not sell it. Instead, they will keep it
going yet let it languish as Macromedia has. This is Roger Jones's take on
it. He was quite an interesting voice in that Director history I published
on the list a while back.

And of course they will combine Fireworks and Photoshop into Fireshop.

ja
http://vispo.com

It is a sad day for new media and traditional graphic artists.
Not sure if anyone remembers how lousy Adobe Illustrator used to be until Freehand up'd the anti (and how long GoLive lay dorment while Dreamweaver took the fire out from under Adobe).

The rivalry was exciting and it pushed both companies to raise the bar, and we benefited from that. I wish Adobe would have just settled their patent dispute with Macromedia instead of "making it go away" through an acquisition!

Ah well…. another one bites the dust, does anyone remeber how great Aldus used to be (pre-aquisition by Adobe?)

(grin)

Adobe have some very interesting Open Source (BSD :-/) code avalable. It's interesting because it's a constraint-based UI generation system that they've thought through from first principles:

http://opensource.adobe.com/

Maybe the code to Director will be there one day. :-)

- Rob.

On Tuesday, April 19, 2005, at 00:46AM, Jess Loseby <[email protected]> wrote:

> > I think they should just take all of Macromedias stuff and give it to the
>> open-source community. That would be cool. That would make me love adobe.
>>
>>
>yes, very cool
>
>*sings tunelessly* dreaming, dream, dream dreeee-am, dreaaamming
>
>:)

More on this whole deal here:

http://www.webstandards.org/buzz/archive/2005_04.html#a000516

This thing really has the web dev world going bezerk…

little faq from Adobe.. in pdf of course..

http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/invrelations/pdfs/AdobeMacromediaFAQ.pdf


===
<twhid>http://www.mteww.com</twhid>
===

> More on this whole deal here:
>
> http://www.webstandards.org/buzz/archive/2005_04.html#a000516

Forms. Flash and forms. There's the sort of business it's for. Filling in
forms. DHTML aspires in that direction also. Not toward the service of art
but the service of business. That's where the money is: business documents.

That's 'the enterprise route'. More or less the route of dullness.

See, that's what I like about the historical trajectory of Director: it just
never went there. The folks developing it were always more inspired by
multimedia possibilities than by things like business forms.

Adobe is quite print-focussed. Nice very nice. That's why they never had any
"Web magic".

Now they have Macromedia. A pity, really.

If Microsoft had got them, it would be a foregone conclusion all their
products would disappear and become inconsequential because Microsoft simply
cannot deal with creative products. With Adobe having gotten them, it's a
bit less clear. But that print-focus and business focus does not bode well.

ja
http://vispo.com

hmmmmm….maybe: less flash-based web art?
imagine….;-}

bliss
l




— Jim Andrews <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > More on this whole deal here:
> >
> >
>
http://www.webstandards.org/buzz/archive/2005_04.html#a000516
>
> Forms. Flash and forms. There's the sort of business
> it's for. Filling in
> forms. DHTML aspires in that direction also. Not
> toward the service of art
> but the service of business. That's where the money
> is: business documents.
>
> That's 'the enterprise route'. More or less the
> route of dullness.
>
> See, that's what I like about the historical
> trajectory of Director: it just
> never went there. The folks developing it were
> always more inspired by
> multimedia possibilities than by things like
> business forms.
>
> Adobe is quite print-focussed. Nice very nice.
> That's why they never had any
> "Web magic".
>
> Now they have Macromedia. A pity, really.
>
> If Microsoft had got them, it would be a foregone
> conclusion all their
> products would disappear and become inconsequential
> because Microsoft simply
> cannot deal with creative products. With Adobe
> having gotten them, it's a
> bit less clear. But that print-focus and business
> focus does not bode well.
>
> ja
> http://vispo.com
>
>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
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> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
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>



***************************************************************************
No More Movements…

Lewis LaCook –>Poet-Programmer|||http://www.lewislacook.com/|||

Web Programmer|||http://www.corporatepa.com/|||

XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog-> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/

Collective Writing Projects–> Appendix M ->http://www.lewislacook.com/AppendixM/





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