Re: [Locative] Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Know Where You Are

Our sense of knowing where we are is never really on a global scale, is
it? Your mention of the prisoner in a 4x4 ft room sparked this thought.
Knowing where we are on a global scale never really helps us much. We
have to reduce it to the relevant surroundings. To the prisoner it might
just be enough for him to know where he is within that 4x4 ft space. The
park ranger requires a bit more. But still, if the scale is too big it
becomes totally irrelevant. A Yellowstone park ranger knowing his
location in relation to Central Park is going to be about as lost as the
novice hiker who doesn't know how to read a compass.

One of the things I really like about cities like Paris and London is
that you can really allow yourself to get lost without having to panic
too much. All you have to do is find the nearest subway station and it's
pretty simple from there on.

Pall

hamilton, jen wrote:
> Hi, I am just launching straight into these very interesting points, as
> we all get ready to (probably) meet up at the PLAN conference next week.
>
> Maybe the GPS device, in the fact that it gives co-ordinates, helps you
> to see, or remember to look where you are - the wide river to the side
> of you as you sit by the cafe. The GPS coordinates are a very deficient
> in describing a location; unidimensional desciptions don't give us much
> to go on. Park rangers will tell you however, that ramblers are
> constantly getting lost due to their sense of feeling invincible to the
> terrain, on account of them having with them a GPS device in hand. I
> know where I am, but that doesn't prevent me from becoming lost. Then
> perhaps it's useful to look at the GPS device as a kind of agent. It
> gets you off your feet and helps you explore a space in a wholly
> different way, even if it means getting lost on the edge of a cliff.
> Also, I think prisoners do, very much, know where they are, it's just a
> limited geography, even if it's in a completely darkened room, four foot
> squared; though, actually not having had the experience of solitary
> confinement I don't know if that's exactly true. Maybe when the senses
> are so stripped it becomes psychologically difficult, maybe even
> impossible to have spatial bearings. Maybe that is why it is so
> torturous to be in solitary confinement.
>
> When I am feeling safe, and have a bit of time to spare, and I find
> myself in a new city, I _love_ the feeling of being lost. I try to
> remember that this will only last for a little while, and until I
> realize I need to get somewhere and need to approach a stranger and ask
> for directions (even if this means using sign language, and making
> chicken scratchings on a napkin) I see and experience my being in a
> location entirely differently than when I know where I am. This brings
> to mind Calvino's Invisable Cities and that very funny German film
> 'Enlightenment Guaranteed'.
>
> On 30 Jan 2005, at 04:23, Ivan Pope wrote:
>
>> Hi Pall,
>> Yes, I know of course, GPS information doesn't tell you 'where you
>> are'. I wasn't really connecting the two in a literal sense. I just
>> had this thought that knowing where you are might be a fundamental
>> human right that is worth talking about. Thinking about this raises
>> exactly the issue you raise: what information do you need to 'know
>> where you are'.
>> I'm interested in chrono-geography. That is, I like to look at
>> location and time. There's another layer on knowing where you are,
>> i.e. what date are you at etc.
>> I'm interested in theoretical aspects of location and psychogeography.
>> How would you define the information that anyone should be given in
>> order that they 'know where they are'.
>> Cheers,
>> Ivan
>>
>> Pall Thayer wrote:
>>
>>>> Following a GPS visit to the Isle of Wight last week, I was
>>>> wondering what the point of universal GPS was and where it would
>>>> lead us. I had a huge thought: Knowing where you are is a
>>>> fundamental human right.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> True, it is a fundamental right. No one should be made to suffer the
>>> perils of not knowing where they are. But the fundamental question
>>> here is, "Does a GPS device tell us where we are?"
>>>
>>> How do we define location? If I tell you, in a casual phone
>>> conversation (while you are sitting at a cafe with no maps on you),
>>> that I'm at N58 24.10 E10 18.20, does that tell you where I am?
>>>
>>> If I'm lost in the desert somewhere and my trusty GPS device tells me
>>> my coordinates, I'm no better off unless I can supplement it with
>>> additional information and if I can, a simple compass would do me
>>> just as much good.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, I might be able to tell you during our phone
>>> conversation that to my left is a wide river, on the other side of
>>> the river is big old church. On my right is a street with some
>>> restaurants. Do you know where I am? Do I know where I am?
>>>
>>> Pall
>>>
>>> Ivan Pope wrote:
>>>
>>>> Following a GPS visit to the Isle of Wight last week, I was
>>>> wondering what the point of universal GPS was and where it would
>>>> lead us. I had a huge thought: Knowing where you are is a
>>>> fundamental human right.
>>>>
>>>> We take this for granted as we generally know where we are.
>>>> Who might not know where they are? Prisoners, patients, soldiers,
>>>> children, workers, passengers –
>>>> What do we mean by 'where we are'? I am in a University of Brighton
>>>> lecture room, in the sculpture department, in the Grand Parade
>>>> buildings, in south Brighton, in Brighton, on the south coast, in
>>>> East Sussex, in Sussex, in the South East, in the South of England,
>>>> in England, in Great Britain, in the United Kingdom, in norther
>>>> Europe, in Europe, in the norther hemisphere, in the west, in the
>>>> first world, on Earth – etc
>>>>
>>>> How can we ensure we know where we are? What steps need to be taken
>>>> to ensure people know where they are? What are the effects of not
>>>> knowing where you are?
>>>>
>>>> Is the right to know where you are anywhere enshrined in law?
>>>>
>>>> And while I'm on the subject:
>>>>
>>>> I'm doing two GPS for Artists workshops with SCAN
>>>> <http://www.scansite.org/scan.php?pid30>on Feb 19th at Quay Arts,
>>>> Isle of Weight and on March 12 at New Greenham Arts so if you fancy
>>>> a free day out with a GPS unit and a camera and an introduction to
>>>> GPS for artists, please book up now.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> GPS for Artists, Ivan Pope workshop, 19/2/05 Quay Arts, Isle of Wight,
>>>> UK; 12/3/05 New Greenham Arts, Berkshire UK
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Places still available and it is free to attend. Booking essential.
>>>> Phone 01590 682824
>>>>
>>>> Ivan Pope presents A Locative Day Out
>>>>
>>>> The satellite based Global Positioning System (GPS) allows us to
>>>> record basic information about their location, direction, altitude
>>>> and speed. Using small hand held devices, artists can record and
>>>> interpret this data to create mapping, locative, durational and
>>>> other works. GPS allows us to take back knowledge of our
>>>> whereabouts, and to annotate this knowledge, or to reuse it as we wish.
>>>>
>>>> Artists can use access to this locative data that forms the
>>>> background to all our lives, to add another layer of information to
>>>> work. Whether we want accurate information or chaotic
>>>> disinformation, the gps satellites transmit unceasingly 24 hours a
>>>> day, not caring whether we make use of their datastreams or not. We
>>>> can anonymously take up their offering and convert it to human data.
>>>>
>>>> This one day live workshop will introduce the basic functioning of
>>>> the GPS and demonstrate GPS devices and software along with digital
>>>> cameras. Participants will be able to use GPS devices and digital
>>>> cameras in the field to create their own personal mappings of the
>>>> locality. These mappings will form the basis for a workshop in
>>>> creating combined and annotated maps and images.
>>>>
>>>> We will spend the day looking at software and hardware and
>>>> discussing psychogeographic and locative issues while making our own
>>>> maps, playing gps games and adding to the global store of waypoints.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> –
>> Business Blogging <http://blog.telememetics.com/blog.html>
>> –
>> http://locative.x-i.net (list archive: + /archive/ )
>>
>>
> Jen
>
>
> Digital Research Unit Artist in Residence
> @ The Media Centre Huddersfield
> Creative Lofts, the Mechanics Institute
> FLAT 13, 15 Northumberland Street
> Huddersfield, England
> HDTIRL
> tel: 0870-990-5017
>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

–
_______________________________
Pall Thayer
artist/teacher
http://www.this.is/pallit
http://pallit.lhi.is/panse

Lorna
http://www.this.is/lorna
_______________________________

Hello

I was recently contacted by a person who works in environmental science.
this is how he descibes his work, he "needs accurate geo-referencing to
provide precise point-source locations for observations and data on terrain,
soils, climate, vagetation, cultural inforamtion and economic conditions. He
uses the data to develope descriptive, explanatory and predictive models
that relate the different layers of spatial informations."
whilst we were talking about GPS information i said that the data itself is
meaningless without other references, which is similar to this discussion of
location - knowing that i'm at N54.05038 W-2.80179 doesnt really tell me
anything. But he has worked with this data for so long, that he would know
roughly where that was, because he's worked with this data in many different
locations across the north of england, and the world.
I've never met anyone who can really 'read' GPS data, without software to
relate it to a location. Usually i'm thinking about recreational users of
GPS, not professional users - like the park rangers, or mountain rescue
people that Jen H mentioned. As with any other information, its more about
having the experience to read it. The environmental scientist I spoke to has
the relative databank in his own memory - linked to GPS data, rather than on
a device.


Jen

Jen Southern
Www.theportable.tv


> Hi Ivan,
> Well, I'm a little more concerned these days with taking a location and
> transforming it into a non-location. But of course to achieve the "know
> where you are" factor you have to include some sort of universally
> familiar element. Like a landmark that everyone (or at least whoever has
> to understand the location) knows. Of course, it would be interesting to
> know what the world might be like if we could attain the kind of
> automatic familiarity with numerical location identifiers that we have
> with small numbers. Like when we see three trees in a park, we don't
> have to count them. We just look and know that what we see is three. So
> if we could just look at a set of coordinates and immediately picture
> that coordinates surrounding area, but I don't really see that happening
> in the near future.
>
> Ivan Pope wrote:
>> Hi Pall,
>> Yes, I know of course, GPS information doesn't tell you 'where you are'.
>> I wasn't really connecting the two in a literal sense. I just had this
>> thought that knowing where you are might be a fundamental human right
>> that is worth talking about. Thinking about this raises exactly the
>> issue you raise: what information do you need to 'know where you are'.
>> I'm interested in chrono-geography. That is, I like to look at location
>> and time. There's another layer on knowing where you are, i.e. what date
>> are you at etc.
>> I'm interested in theoretical aspects of location and psychogeography.
>> How would you define the information that anyone should be given in
>> order that they 'know where they are'.
>> Cheers,
>> Ivan
>>
>> Pall Thayer wrote:
>>
>>>> Following a GPS visit to the Isle of Wight last week, I was wondering
>>>> what the point of universal GPS was and where it would lead us. I had
>>>> a huge thought: Knowing where you are is a fundamental human right.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> True, it is a fundamental right. No one should be made to suffer the
>>> perils of not knowing where they are. But the fundamental question
>>> here is, "Does a GPS device tell us where we are?"
>>>
>>> How do we define location? If I tell you, in a casual phone
>>> conversation (while you are sitting at a cafe with no maps on you),
>>> that I'm at N58 24.10 E10 18.20, does that tell you where I am?
>>>
>>> If I'm lost in the desert somewhere and my trusty GPS device tells me
>>> my coordinates, I'm no better off unless I can supplement it with
>>> additional information and if I can, a simple compass would do me just
>>> as much good.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, I might be able to tell you during our phone
>>> conversation that to my left is a wide river, on the other side of the
>>> river is big old church. On my right is a street with some
>>> restaurants. Do you know where I am? Do I know where I am?
>>>
>>> Pall
>>>
>>> Ivan Pope wrote:
>>>
>>>> Following a GPS visit to the Isle of Wight last week, I was wondering
>>>> what the point of universal GPS was and where it would lead us. I had
>>>> a huge thought: Knowing where you are is a fundamental human right.
>>>>
>>>> We take this for granted as we generally know where we are.
>>>> Who might not know where they are? Prisoners, patients, soldiers,
>>>> children, workers, passengers –
>>>> What do we mean by 'where we are'? I am in a University of Brighton
>>>> lecture room, in the sculpture department, in the Grand Parade
>>>> buildings, in south Brighton, in Brighton, on the south coast, in
>>>> East Sussex, in Sussex, in the South East, in the South of England,
>>>> in England, in Great Britain, in the United Kingdom, in norther
>>>> Europe, in Europe, in the norther hemisphere, in the west, in the
>>>> first world, on Earth – etc
>>>>
>>>> How can we ensure we know where we are? What steps need to be taken
>>>> to ensure people know where they are? What are the effects of not
>>>> knowing where you are?
>>>>
>>>> Is the right to know where you are anywhere enshrined in law?
>>>>
>>>> And while I'm on the subject:
>>>>
>>>> I'm doing two GPS for Artists workshops with SCAN
>>>> <http://www.scansite.org/scan.php?pid30>on Feb 19th at Quay Arts,
>>>> Isle of Weight and on March 12 at New Greenham Arts so if you fancy a
>>>> free day out with a GPS unit and a camera and an introduction to GPS
>>>> for artists, please book up now.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> GPS for Artists, Ivan Pope workshop, 19/2/05 Quay Arts, Isle of Wight,
>>>> UK; 12/3/05 New Greenham Arts, Berkshire UK
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Places still available and it is free to attend. Booking essential.
>>>> Phone 01590 682824
>>>>
>>>> Ivan Pope presents A Locative Day Out
>>>>
>>>> The satellite based Global Positioning System (GPS) allows us to
>>>> record basic information about their location, direction, altitude
>>>> and speed. Using small hand held devices, artists can record and
>>>> interpret this data to create mapping, locative, durational and other
>>>> works. GPS allows us to take back knowledge of our whereabouts, and
>>>> to annotate this knowledge, or to reuse it as we wish.
>>>>
>>>> Artists can use access to this locative data that forms the
>>>> background to all our lives, to add another layer of information to
>>>> work. Whether we want accurate information or chaotic disinformation,
>>>> the gps satellites transmit unceasingly 24 hours a day, not caring
>>>> whether we make use of their datastreams or not. We can anonymously
>>>> take up their offering and convert it to human data.
>>>>
>>>> This one day live workshop will introduce the basic functioning of
>>>> the GPS and demonstrate GPS devices and software along with digital
>>>> cameras. Participants will be able to use GPS devices and digital
>>>> cameras in the field to create their own personal mappings of the
>>>> locality. These mappings will form the basis for a workshop in
>>>> creating combined and annotated maps and images.
>>>>
>>>> We will spend the day looking at software and hardware and discussing
>>>> psychogeographic and locative issues while making our own maps,
>>>> playing gps games and adding to the global store of waypoints.
>>>>
>>>
>>

–

When I say you locatiomn. UK popped right into my head I am at
approximately 121.78W36.59W (decimal notation). I am not as good as my
astrology loving friend who could do sexigesimal arithmetic in my head. I
could see this as sort of a weirdass geeky skill to have. I could see some
artists having it too as it opens the door to fascinating things and
questions like how we view ourselves and where we are.

Have Fun,
Sends Steve

> Hello
>
> I was recently contacted by a person who works in environmental science.
> this is how he descibes his work, he "needs accurate geo-referencing to
> provide precise point-source locations for observations and data on
> terrain,
> soils, climate, vagetation, cultural inforamtion and economic conditions.
> He
> uses the data to develope descriptive, explanatory and predictive models
> that relate the different layers of spatial informations."
> whilst we were talking about GPS information i said that the data itself
> is
> meaningless without other references, which is similar to this discussion
> of
> location - knowing that i'm at N54.05038 W-2.80179 doesnt really tell
> me
> anything. But he has worked with this data for so long, that he would know
> roughly where that was, because he's worked with this data in many
> different
> locations across the north of england, and the world.
> I've never met anyone who can really 'read' GPS data, without software to
> relate it to a location. Usually i'm thinking about recreational users of
> GPS, not professional users - like the park rangers, or mountain rescue
> people that Jen H mentioned. As with any other information, its more about
> having the experience to read it. The environmental scientist I spoke to
> has
> the relative databank in his own memory - linked to GPS data, rather than
> on
> a device.
>
>
> Jen
>
> Jen Southern
> Www.theportable.tv
>
>
>> Hi Ivan,
>> Well, I'm a little more concerned these days with taking a location and
>> transforming it into a non-location. But of course to achieve the "know
>> where you are" factor you have to include some sort of universally
>> familiar element. Like a landmark that everyone (or at least whoever has
>> to understand the location) knows. Of course, it would be interesting to
>> know what the world might be like if we could attain the kind of
>> automatic familiarity with numerical location identifiers that we have
>> with small numbers. Like when we see three trees in a park, we don't
>> have to count them. We just look and know that what we see is three. So
>> if we could just look at a set of coordinates and immediately picture
>> that coordinates surrounding area, but I don't really see that happening
>> in the near future.
>>
>> Ivan Pope wrote:
>>> Hi Pall,
>>> Yes, I know of course, GPS information doesn't tell you 'where you
>>> are'.
>>> I wasn't really connecting the two in a literal sense. I just had this
>>> thought that knowing where you are might be a fundamental human right
>>> that is worth talking about. Thinking about this raises exactly the
>>> issue you raise: what information do you need to 'know where you are'.
>>> I'm interested in chrono-geography. That is, I like to look at location
>>> and time. There's another layer on knowing where you are, i.e. what
>>> date
>>> are you at etc.
>>> I'm interested in theoretical aspects of location and psychogeography.
>>> How would you define the information that anyone should be given in
>>> order that they 'know where they are'.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Ivan
>>>
>>> Pall Thayer wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Following a GPS visit to the Isle of Wight last week, I was wondering
>>>>> what the point of universal GPS was and where it would lead us. I had
>>>>> a huge thought: Knowing where you are is a fundamental human right.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> True, it is a fundamental right. No one should be made to suffer the
>>>> perils of not knowing where they are. But the fundamental question
>>>> here is, "Does a GPS device tell us where we are?"
>>>>
>>>> How do we define location? If I tell you, in a casual phone
>>>> conversation (while you are sitting at a cafe with no maps on you),
>>>> that I'm at N58 24.10 E10 18.20, does that tell you where I am?
>>>>
>>>> If I'm lost in the desert somewhere and my trusty GPS device tells me
>>>> my coordinates, I'm no better off unless I can supplement it with
>>>> additional information and if I can, a simple compass would do me just
>>>> as much good.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, I might be able to tell you during our phone
>>>> conversation that to my left is a wide river, on the other side of the
>>>> river is big old church. On my right is a street with some
>>>> restaurants. Do you know where I am? Do I know where I am?
>>>>
>>>> Pall
>>>>
>>>> Ivan Pope wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Following a GPS visit to the Isle of Wight last week, I was wondering
>>>>> what the point of universal GPS was and where it would lead us. I had
>>>>> a huge thought: Knowing where you are is a fundamental human right.
>>>>>
>>>>> We take this for granted as we generally know where we are.
>>>>> Who might not know where they are? Prisoners, patients, soldiers,
>>>>> children, workers, passengers –
>>>>> What do we mean by 'where we are'? I am in a University of Brighton
>>>>> lecture room, in the sculpture department, in the Grand Parade
>>>>> buildings, in south Brighton, in Brighton, on the south coast, in
>>>>> East Sussex, in Sussex, in the South East, in the South of England,
>>>>> in England, in Great Britain, in the United Kingdom, in norther
>>>>> Europe, in Europe, in the norther hemisphere, in the west, in the
>>>>> first world, on Earth – etc
>>>>>
>>>>> How can we ensure we know where we are? What steps need to be taken
>>>>> to ensure people know where they are? What are the effects of not
>>>>> knowing where you are?
>>>>>
>>>>> Is the right to know where you are anywhere enshrined in law?
>>>>>
>>>>> And while I'm on the subject:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm doing two GPS for Artists workshops with SCAN
>>>>> <http://www.scansite.org/scan.php?pid30>on Feb 19th at Quay Arts,
>>>>> Isle of Weight and on March 12 at New Greenham Arts so if you fancy a
>>>>> free day out with a GPS unit and a camera and an introduction to GPS
>>>>> for artists, please book up now.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> GPS for Artists, Ivan Pope workshop, 19/2/05 Quay Arts, Isle of
>>>>> Wight,
>>>>> UK; 12/3/05 New Greenham Arts, Berkshire UK
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Places still available and it is free to attend. Booking essential.
>>>>> Phone 01590 682824
>>>>>
>>>>> Ivan Pope presents A Locative Day Out
>>>>>
>>>>> The satellite based Global Positioning System (GPS) allows us to
>>>>> record basic information about their location, direction, altitude
>>>>> and speed. Using small hand held devices, artists can record and
>>>>> interpret this data to create mapping, locative, durational and other
>>>>> works. GPS allows us to take back knowledge of our whereabouts, and
>>>>> to annotate this knowledge, or to reuse it as we wish.
>>>>>
>>>>> Artists can use access to this locative data that forms the
>>>>> background to all our lives, to add another layer of information to
>>>>> work. Whether we want accurate information or chaotic disinformation,
>>>>> the gps satellites transmit unceasingly 24 hours a day, not caring
>>>>> whether we make use of their datastreams or not. We can anonymously
>>>>> take up their offering and convert it to human data.
>>>>>
>>>>> This one day live workshop will introduce the basic functioning of
>>>>> the GPS and demonstrate GPS devices and software along with digital
>>>>> cameras. Participants will be able to use GPS devices and digital
>>>>> cameras in the field to create their own personal mappings of the
>>>>> locality. These mappings will form the basis for a workshop in
>>>>> creating combined and annotated maps and images.
>>>>>
>>>>> We will spend the day looking at software and hardware and discussing
>>>>> psychogeographic and locative issues while making our own maps,
>>>>> playing gps games and adding to the global store of waypoints.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
> –
>
>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

A neat tool/toy lives here: http://www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/uncgi/Earth
Another neat toy that is more like a tool for me when teaching kids about
the weather is:
http://weatherpixie.com/index.php?htm=0&page=map&trooper=1&type=&long1.78&lat6.93
There is also: http://www.nrlmry.navy.mil/nexsat_pages/nexsat_home.html
but a little what it is like outside. OF course there are other things
like GlobeExplorer and Terra Explorer if you are really into this sort of
stuff. I am still figuring how to meld Science, Art and Personal Being.

Have Fun,
Sends Steve


> Hello
>
> I was recently contacted by a person who works in environmental science.
> this is how he descibes his work, he "needs accurate geo-referencing to
> provide precise point-source locations for observations and data on
> terrain,
> soils, climate, vagetation, cultural inforamtion and economic conditions.
> He
> uses the data to develope descriptive, explanatory and predictive models
> that relate the different layers of spatial informations."
> whilst we were talking about GPS information i said that the data itself
> is
> meaningless without other references, which is similar to this discussion
> of
> location - knowing that i'm at N54.05038 W-2.80179 doesnt really tell
> me
> anything. But he has worked with this data for so long, that he would know
> roughly where that was, because he's worked with this data in many
> different
> locations across the north of england, and the world.
> I've never met anyone who can really 'read' GPS data, without software to
> relate it to a location. Usually i'm thinking about recreational users of
> GPS, not professional users - like the park rangers, or mountain rescue
> people that Jen H mentioned. As with any other information, its more about
> having the experience to read it. The environmental scientist I spoke to
> has
> the relative databank in his own memory - linked to GPS data, rather than
> on
> a device.
>
>
> Jen
>
> Jen Southern
> Www.theportable.tv
>
>
>> Hi Ivan,
>> Well, I'm a little more concerned these days with taking a location and
>> transforming it into a non-location. But of course to achieve the "know
>> where you are" factor you have to include some sort of universally
>> familiar element. Like a landmark that everyone (or at least whoever has
>> to understand the location) knows. Of course, it would be interesting to
>> know what the world might be like if we could attain the kind of
>> automatic familiarity with numerical location identifiers that we have
>> with small numbers. Like when we see three trees in a park, we don't
>> have to count them. We just look and know that what we see is three. So
>> if we could just look at a set of coordinates and immediately picture
>> that coordinates surrounding area, but I don't really see that happening
>> in the near future.
>>
>> Ivan Pope wrote:
>>> Hi Pall,
>>> Yes, I know of course, GPS information doesn't tell you 'where you
>>> are'.
>>> I wasn't really connecting the two in a literal sense. I just had this
>>> thought that knowing where you are might be a fundamental human right
>>> that is worth talking about. Thinking about this raises exactly the
>>> issue you raise: what information do you need to 'know where you are'.
>>> I'm interested in chrono-geography. That is, I like to look at location
>>> and time. There's another layer on knowing where you are, i.e. what
>>> date
>>> are you at etc.
>>> I'm interested in theoretical aspects of location and psychogeography.
>>> How would you define the information that anyone should be given in
>>> order that they 'know where they are'.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Ivan
>>>
>>> Pall Thayer wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Following a GPS visit to the Isle of Wight last week, I was wondering
>>>>> what the point of universal GPS was and where it would lead us. I had
>>>>> a huge thought: Knowing where you are is a fundamental human right.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> True, it is a fundamental right. No one should be made to suffer the
>>>> perils of not knowing where they are. But the fundamental question
>>>> here is, "Does a GPS device tell us where we are?"
>>>>
>>>> How do we define location? If I tell you, in a casual phone
>>>> conversation (while you are sitting at a cafe with no maps on you),
>>>> that I'm at N58 24.10 E10 18.20, does that tell you where I am?
>>>>
>>>> If I'm lost in the desert somewhere and my trusty GPS device tells me
>>>> my coordinates, I'm no better off unless I can supplement it with
>>>> additional information and if I can, a simple compass would do me just
>>>> as much good.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, I might be able to tell you during our phone
>>>> conversation that to my left is a wide river, on the other side of the
>>>> river is big old church. On my right is a street with some
>>>> restaurants. Do you know where I am? Do I know where I am?
>>>>
>>>> Pall
>>>>
>>>> Ivan Pope wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Following a GPS visit to the Isle of Wight last week, I was wondering
>>>>> what the point of universal GPS was and where it would lead us. I had
>>>>> a huge thought: Knowing where you are is a fundamental human right.
>>>>>
>>>>> We take this for granted as we generally know where we are.
>>>>> Who might not know where they are? Prisoners, patients, soldiers,
>>>>> children, workers, passengers –
>>>>> What do we mean by 'where we are'? I am in a University of Brighton
>>>>> lecture room, in the sculpture department, in the Grand Parade
>>>>> buildings, in south Brighton, in Brighton, on the south coast, in
>>>>> East Sussex, in Sussex, in the South East, in the South of England,
>>>>> in England, in Great Britain, in the United Kingdom, in norther
>>>>> Europe, in Europe, in the norther hemisphere, in the west, in the
>>>>> first world, on Earth – etc
>>>>>
>>>>> How can we ensure we know where we are? What steps need to be taken
>>>>> to ensure people know where they are? What are the effects of not
>>>>> knowing where you are?
>>>>>
>>>>> Is the right to know where you are anywhere enshrined in law?
>>>>>
>>>>> And while I'm on the subject:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm doing two GPS for Artists workshops with SCAN
>>>>> <http://www.scansite.org/scan.php?pid30>on Feb 19th at Quay Arts,
>>>>> Isle of Weight and on March 12 at New Greenham Arts so if you fancy a
>>>>> free day out with a GPS unit and a camera and an introduction to GPS
>>>>> for artists, please book up now.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> GPS for Artists, Ivan Pope workshop, 19/2/05 Quay Arts, Isle of
>>>>> Wight,
>>>>> UK; 12/3/05 New Greenham Arts, Berkshire UK
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Places still available and it is free to attend. Booking essential.
>>>>> Phone 01590 682824
>>>>>
>>>>> Ivan Pope presents A Locative Day Out
>>>>>
>>>>> The satellite based Global Positioning System (GPS) allows us to
>>>>> record basic information about their location, direction, altitude
>>>>> and speed. Using small hand held devices, artists can record and
>>>>> interpret this data to create mapping, locative, durational and other
>>>>> works. GPS allows us to take back knowledge of our whereabouts, and
>>>>> to annotate this knowledge, or to reuse it as we wish.
>>>>>
>>>>> Artists can use access to this locative data that forms the
>>>>> background to all our lives, to add another layer of information to
>>>>> work. Whether we want accurate information or chaotic disinformation,
>>>>> the gps satellites transmit unceasingly 24 hours a day, not caring
>>>>> whether we make use of their datastreams or not. We can anonymously
>>>>> take up their offering and convert it to human data.
>>>>>
>>>>> This one day live workshop will introduce the basic functioning of
>>>>> the GPS and demonstrate GPS devices and software along with digital
>>>>> cameras. Participants will be able to use GPS devices and digital
>>>>> cameras in the field to create their own personal mappings of the
>>>>> locality. These mappings will form the basis for a workshop in
>>>>> creating combined and annotated maps and images.
>>>>>
>>>>> We will spend the day looking at software and hardware and discussing
>>>>> psychogeographic and locative issues while making our own maps,
>>>>> playing gps games and adding to the global store of waypoints.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
> –
>
>
> +
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>

During my recent larger gps chalk drawings in London 2004 [e.g.
"Location, Location, Location" in Bethnal Green and "SE8 v1.0" in
Deptford] , I often write the main part of a GPS co-ordinate over a
hundred times or more. I am often writing the same basic
co-ordinate for over 7 hours.

So as I write a sequence of numbers on the ground, I am only
changing the last few digits in relation to my new position, which
might be, and often is, only a few steps further onwards each time.

The numerical changes are small. After I have been drawing for an
hour or more I don't bother even looking at the GPS as I'm writing,
until I get to the last few figures of each co-ordiinate - the only parts
of the co-ordinate that are changing.

So in some small sense I become more aware of the numbers in
relation to specific locations. I do remember them and now
recognise the specific changes in some numbers from one location
to another in London especially. This is also true when I travel in
other countries making similar drawing works.

In terms of "knowing where you are", I always think about this as I
make these drawings. It preoccupies me.

I draw intensely and very fast and often don't talk at all, even in
extremely crowded busy urban environments.

I become very aware of my physical presence, my marking, and
where I am walking to and from - but I have no idea exactly where I
will write my next coordinate. My primary feeling becomes one of my
sense of Self and my own particular psychology during the period of
the drawing. Locating myself in the landscape, my movement and
physical and psychological presence. My trail of chalked physical
gps positions and their subsequent effect on other people as they
walk through them also combines these elements.

So the "knowing where you are" for me, is not only directly related to
my exact drawn GPS positions - my conscious action of drawing and
leaving a physical trail, position and time, but to the "knowing where
you are" in relation to my unconscious and psyche.

My physical and psychological presence relates to my immediate
environment and the effect my actions and residues have upon it.
This also applies to the effect on other people as they walk through
the drawing, pass by the co-ordinates, or if they observe me writing
them.

"knowing where you are" is a fusion and inter relationship of the
fixed and the fluid and the physical and the psychic; a dynamic
between variation, iteration and constants.

pg

> I don't think it (knowing where you are) has anything to _do_ with
> rights. And I think you do have a right to choose your cosmos. I
must
> say, I'd be intrigued to gather a list of all those people who _don;t_
> know where they are to get a sense of what that's like.
>
> It is interesting to think about knowing _how_ you know where you
are.
> I think it's mostly a body thing. I am in my body, hopefully, most of
> the time. Being here, in a spot is a state, of being…It is all quite
> philosophical, perhaps on the cusp of discussions regarding
> consciousness. And to make it interesting, and complex, and
messed up,
> we've got, in no particular order, stories, experiences, time, culture,
> spheres of influence, hegemonies, technology and shopping,
cars, speed,
> airplane travel, dream states, language, disillusions, fantasies,
and
> environments.
> jlh : 0)
> On 30 Jan 2005, at 08:52, Brian Holmes wrote:
>
> >> ..I just had this thought that knowing where you are might be a
> >> fundamental human right that is worth talking about.
> >
> > …
> >
> >>>> Who might not know where they are? Prisoners, patients,
soldiers,
> >>>> children, workers, passengers –
> >>>> What do we mean by 'where we are'? I am in a University of
> Brighton
> >>>> lecture room, in the sculpture department, in the Grand
Parade
> >>>> buildings, in south Brighton, in Brighton, on the south coast,
in
> >>>> East Sussex, in Sussex, in the South East, in the South of
> England,
> >>>> in England, in Great Britain, in the United Kingdom, in norther
> >>>> Europe, in Europe, in the norther hemisphere, in the west, in
the
> >>>> first world, on Earth – etc
> >
> > Knowing where you are probably is a fundamental human right.
To be
> > universalized, it would require something like an equal access to
> > maps, to atlases, to compasses, to satellites, to cartographic
> > institutions and research, for everyone in the world, 6.5 billion
> > people. That would mean efforts, incredible efforts, to surmount
> > boundaries, frontiers, divides, chasms, no-go zones, structural
> > inequalities, institutional racism, so-called free-trade areas,
> > so-called free elections, many things. But if it is a fundamental
> > human right, then reducing it to the mere accessibilty of
coordinates
> > on a topographical grid would be an impoverishment you might
want to
> > avoid. After all, knowing where you are implies at least some
> > knowledge of where you have been, and even more, where you
might be
> > going. But what does that mean, to be going somewhere? Is it
as
> simple
> > as going to the grocery store? Isn't there destiny in destination?
So
> > it's a temporal thing, an historical thing, a future-feede
> > r, it has philosophical implications. These should be part of
> mapping
> > work, no? Isn't every map itself a philosophy? An explicit or
> implicit
> > cosmos? Do you have a right to choose your cosmos anymore?
And then
> > "you," too, the individual, there's another impoverishing
reduction;
> > because each of us, our language, our social reflexes, even our
> > technical toolkits, these things are collective, they're as much a
> > part of "where we are" and "where we are going" as the ground
under
> > our shoes or the horizon in our line-of-sight. But then how to
> > "provide" horizons? How to "provide" collectivity? And
understanding
> > between collectivities? And critique of collectivities? And new
> > horizons? How to "provide" philosophy, and multiple
philosophies?
> Does
> > a "right" mean that something is provided? But by whom? What
are the
> > coordinates of this kind of provision? Who leads, who follows?
Where
> > are we in the early twenty-first century? Where are we going?
And
> who
> > are "we"? Where do I fit into this p
> > icture? Can the picture itself be trusted? All these questions,
> > universal questions, questions about rights, about what's right,
> about
> > what's left, about what's left over from the times when some
people,
> > somewhere, some time, took these questions to heart, ah, all
these
> > questions spring to mind when I try to locate where this
existence I
> > call mine is - not to mention yours, and theirs, and ours, here,
> > today, tomorrow, yesterday, now, right now.
> >
> > I like this idea, that knowing where you are is a fundamental
human
> > right.
> >
> > best, Brian
> >
> > –
> > http://locative.x-i.net (list archive: + /archive/ )
> >
> >
> Jen
>
>
> Digital Research Unit Artist in Residence
> @ The Media Centre Huddersfield
> Creative Lofts, the Mechanics Institute
> FLAT 13, 15 Northumberland Street
> Huddersfield, England
> HDTIRL
> tel: 0870-990-5017
>
> –
> http://locative.x-i.net (list archive: + /archive/ )

It's interesting to find these questions arising again today. Laura
Kurgan ten years ago asked similar questions about GPS with her project
"You are here" - http://www.princeton.edu/~kurgan/urhere/html/intro.htm

More recently, Jullian Bleecker, Marina Zurkow and Scott Patterson
addressed fetishes for locating ourselves within cartesian space by
positing PDPal - http://www.pdpal.com - as an "emotional GPS", implying
that "where we are" has less to do with precise location and more to do
with what we associate that location with.

<snip>
From "You are here: Museo"
Laura Kurgan
1995

"Where we are, these days, seems less a matter of fixed locations and
stable reference points, and more a matter of networks, which is to
say of displacements and transfers, of nodes defined only by their
relative positions in a shifting field. Even standing still, we
operate at
once in a number of overlapping and incommensurable networks,
and so in a number of places – at once. Orienting oneself in this
open and ongoing interaction appears all the more imperative, and
all the more impossible. "Where am I" in what? Where am I, where?
In the global market, in the universe, in the family, in a corporate
database, in some collective history, in the city or the desert, in the
Internet, on the information superhighway?

With the Global Positioning System, it is said, a definite answer can
finally be provided, with a precision verging on one centimeter.
"Every square meter of the earth's surface [will] have a unique
address," as one user's guide to GPS puts it, and "everyone will have
the ability to know exactly where they are, all the time." But the
space or the architecture of the information system that wants to
locate us once and for all in space has its own complexity, its own
invisible relays and delays. The difficulty of charting the spaces that
chart the spaces, of mapping the scaleless networks of the very
system that promises finally to end our disorientation, demands
redefining the points and lines and planes that build the map, and
lingering in their strange spaces and times. "You Are Here:
Information Drift" is an attempt to begin mapping this emerging
space of information, using its own technologies. These are drawings
with satellites, not to pinpoint a location but to experience the drift
and disorientation at work in any map or any architecture –
especially the architecture of information."
</snip>