understanding repubs?

WTF?

Is it that hard to understand an anti-choice voter's stance in this
election (and every other election that's been held since abortion was
legalized)? whatev.

No, I'm sorry Fuck That.

I understand that they are perfectly mistaken and that's all I need to
understand. They must lose political power or our country (as well as
the rest of the world) is perfectly fucked.

The Left's ability to empathize with their adversaries and hold two
conflicting ideas in their head at one time is what helps the Right win
using their dirty tactics. You think the repubs are wondering why we
coo-coo lefties do what we do? no they don't, they just pull out the
big anti-patriot brush.

The left doesn't want to stoop to the dirty games, fear-mongering,
lies, distortions and double-dealings which are the MO of
Bush/Cheney/Rove and the rest of their republican minions but a
hard-case stance is our only chance in this election.

The only progress that can be made with the right-wing radicals
currently controlling the US gov't is by kicking them out the door.
Period.

On Aug 31, 2004, at 1:36 PM, Bubble Sort wrote:

> curt===
>

Comments

, Francis Hwang

One thing worth noting in a discussion like this is that the Republican
party itself has swung towards a much more extreme position over the
last 50 years or so. It seems to me that at some point the Republican
centrists decided to ally with a hardcore radical fringe of Christian
fundamentalists to get into power … after all, the fundamentalists
work harder, and they show up to all sorts of boring city council
meetings, so in the short term they probably figured it'd be a good
thing to be on their side.

But in the long term? The far right brought with it not just
politically difficult ideas, but a fundamental difference in terms of
tactics. Once you've decided that you're engaged in a war for the
values of your country, how far are you willing to stoop in lying,
character assassination, and mean-spiritedness to beat your opponent
down?

So now the Republicans are in power, and although Bush himself tries to
be seen as a nice guy, people like Rove, Rumsfeld, and Cheney are not
so encumbered by such concerns. They understand democracy largely as
the exercise of power as opposed to the fostering of consensus, and
they are pushing as hard as they can to get what they want, not
concerned how the country will be hurt in the result.

Will the centrist Republicans stay with them? Time will tell. You may
have seen MoveOn.org's Switch ads (
http://www.moveon.org/pac/news/switchad-buy.html ), in which lifelong
Republicans talk to Errol Morris about why they're voting for Kerry
this year. I have my own personal version of that. My father, a doctor
in private practice living in suburban Seattle, has voted Republican
ever since he was naturalized as a U.S. citizen. As a professional,
business owner, and self-made man, the Republican message of free
enterprise and self-reliance resonated strongly with him.

He and I argued for years about politics, but although I thought his
advocacy of Reagonomics was naive and his faith in Cold War geopolitics
was cynical, overall he never advocated ignorance, mendacity, or
mean-spiritedness. So I suppose it shouldn't have been too much of a
surprise to go home last year for Christmas and listen to him rant
again and again about his hatred for the Bush administration. He
sounded angrier than any of my
queer-liberation/anarcho-punk/tattoed-artist friends: He had voted for
a compassionate conservative and instead he got Abu Ghraib. Those of us
on the left never had high expectations for Bush, but my father, a
centrist Republican, felt like he'd been betrayed. In fact, he had just
contributed to a Democrat's nomination bid for the first time ever–and
of all people, it was Howard Dean.

I don't think my father is the only person like this … Maybe you
could call me cautiously optimistic on this election.

Francis



On Aug 31, 2004, at 2:18 PM, t.whid wrote:

> WTF?
>
> Is it that hard to understand an anti-choice voter's stance in this
> election (and every other election that's been held since abortion was
> legalized)? whatev.
>
> No, I'm sorry Fuck That.
>
> I understand that they are perfectly mistaken and that's all I need to
> understand. They must lose political power or our country (as well as
> the rest of the world) is perfectly fucked.
>
> The Left's ability to empathize with their adversaries and hold two
> conflicting ideas in their head at one time is what helps the Right
> win using their dirty tactics. You think the repubs are wondering why
> we coo-coo lefties do what we do? no they don't, they just pull out
> the big anti-patriot brush.
>
> The left doesn't want to stoop to the dirty games, fear-mongering,
> lies, distortions and double-dealings which are the MO of
> Bush/Cheney/Rove and the rest of their republican minions but a
> hard-case stance is our only chance in this election.
>
> The only progress that can be made with the right-wing radicals
> currently controlling the US gov't is by kicking them out the door.
> Period.
>
> On Aug 31, 2004, at 1:36 PM, Bubble Sort wrote:
>
>> curt===
>>

, MTAA

On Aug 31, 2004, at 3:48 PM, Francis Hwang wrote:
>
>
> I don't think my father is the only person like this … Maybe you
> could call me cautiously optimistic on this election.
>
> Francis
>
>

Right. I work with a guy who votes republican, was pro-Iraq war and etc.

He hates Bush and is voting Kerry, he too feels this betrayal (I like
to think my args had something to do with it too). But, he lives in New
York so… a drop in the ocean of Kerry voters.

He's simply a fiscal conservative and hates paying taxes. That's the
only reason he's republican. He's very moderate, loves McCain, etc.
It's the extreme radical (and ruling) contingent I was ranting about in
my last post.

I think the Dem operatives must go about their business with the same
cut-throat attitude the repubs have. Of course we normal citizens
interacting on personal levels should try to attain some understanding
of one another's views.

, joy garnett

Yeah: it's fine to understand the logic of one's enemy; how to defeat
them otherwise? But let's not be namby-pamby. We've been abused–
hijacked–by a group that is not only ideologically *different* from us,
they are courting folks from religious absolutist and ideologically intoler=
ant
extremes as a tactic for maintaining control. There can be no mistaking
their ruthlessness and I really do think they will stop at nothing–I
actually am steeling myself for 4 more years of this crap–and another
big attack somewhere (here?). But if we for one cold-blooded moment can
put aside our feelings of repugnance for this creepy lieing bigoted bunch o=
f
robber barons–not out of some well-intentioned though dish rag excuse for=

civic-mindedness, but to look calmly at whether or not they have indeed
fulfilled their own agendas, one thing becomes apparent: their utter
incompetence to govern. They don't know what the fuck they are doing, not=

at home and definitely not abroad. What's chilling is reading up on the
experts–the intelligence people who came out later, like Richard
Clarke–and CIA operatives like "Anonymous"–who really understands
al-Qaida and the dynamics of globalism as it expands the efficacy and
resilience of terrorism–"Anonymous" whose book, Imperial Hubris, is
hair-raising… But that war aside, this thing we have here is a vicious,=

uncivil internal cultural war that nevertheless effects the entire world;=

and we have a responsibility to be focused and unyielding when dealing
with our enemy: the Aministration and anyone from any party, class or
state who would support them, or do something stupid that would give them=

even more of an edge, whether that be actual, psychological or
fantastical. By stupid I mean something like voting Nader this time
around, or not voting at all.

I just read and blogged Ron Reagan's excellent piece coming out in
September Esquire:
The Case Against George W. Bush:
http://www.esquire.com/cgi-bin/printtool/print.cgi?pages=5&filename=%2F=
features%2Farticles%2F2004%2F040729_mfe_reagan.html&x=53&y=15

Btw, our enemy regards us as they would regard dog shit. This would
include Dennis Hastert's convention speech inuendo and remarks about
George Soros being a drug lord: (via Eyeteeth):

http://eyeteeth.blogspot.com/2004/08/is-hastert-on-crack-house-speaker.html
"You know, I don't know where George Soros gets his money. I don't know
where if it comes overseas or from drug groups or where it comes from,"
Hastert mused. An astonished Chris Wallace asked: "Excuse me?" The Speaker=

went on: "Well, that's what he's been for a number years George Soros has=

been for legalizing drugs in this country. So, I mean, he's got a lot of
ancillary interests out there." Wallace: "You think he may be getting
money from the drug cartel?" Hastert: "I'm saying I don't know where
groups - could be people who support this type of thing. I'm saying we
don't know."

This sort of high profile lieing is imperial hubris too.

Has anyone here had the odious experience of going to their favorite
restaurant this weekend and finding it full of RNC families and
delegates? New Green Bo must be on "the list"; it's a typically drab,
fluorescent-lit Chinese eatery with amazing dumplings where you may end
up sharing a big round table with strangers. We sat next to the rich
family from a gated community, with the pimply son and cookie-cutter
smiles and The Lion King tix. The son was working the convention. They
regarded us with what I can only describe as stealth disgust. If only we'd=

been wearing our anti-Bush tshirts… I'd like to see these white
supremacist wealthy SUV-driving Americans lose in a big way.

cheers,
JG
http://newsgrist.typepad.com/


On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, t.whid wrote:

> WTF?
>
> Is it that hard to understand an anti-choice voter's stance in this elect=
ion
> (and every other election that's been held since abortion was legalized)

> whatev.
>
> No, I'm sorry Fuck That.
>
> I understand that they are perfectly mistaken and that's all I need to
> understand. They must lose political power or our country (as well as the=

> rest of the world) is perfectly fucked.
>
> The Left's ability to empathize with their adversaries and hold two
> conflicting ideas in their head at one time is what helps the Right win u=
sing
> their dirty tactics. You think the repubs are wondering why we coo-coo
> lefties do what we do? no they don't, they just pull out the big anti-pat=
riot
> brush.
>
> The left doesn't want to stoop to the dirty games, fear-mongering, lies,=

> distortions and double-dealings which are the MO of Bush/Cheney/Rove and =
the
> rest of their republican minions but a hard-case stance is our only chanc=
e in
> this election.
>
> The only progress that can be made with the right-wing radicals currently=

> controlling the US gov't is by kicking them out the door. Period.
>
> On Aug 31, 2004, at 1:36 PM, Bubble Sort wrote:
>
>> curt===
>>

, curt cloninger

beautiful.

_

t.whid wrote:

Of course we normal citizens interacting on personal levels should try to attain some
understanding of one another's views…

No, I'm sorry Fuck That.

I understand that they are perfectly mistaken and that's all I need to
understand.

, MTAA

God-damn. Where's the christian generosity when you need it?

I think it was obvious I was stepping back a bit from my first rant,
but let me clarify.

I understand the repubs' positions. And they're wrong. If I was going
to council Dem operatives I wouldn't council them to empathize with the
repubs. I would council them to go for the throat. Sure, as Joy points
out, understand their views and methods and use that understanding to
completely destroy them.

If I were to council a friend on how to talk to a co-worker, relative,
associate, &c., I would suggest a reasonable, calm dissection of the
Right-wing line and an explaination that if you're moderate you
probably agree more with Kerry than with the radical right-wing now
running the gov't.

Different theaters of debate require different approaches. So you see,
it is possible to have these seemingly antithetical quotes of mine make
sense.



On Aug 31, 2004, at 4:40 PM, curt cloninger wrote:

> beautiful.
>
> _
>
> t.whid wrote:
>
> Of course we normal citizens interacting on personal levels should
> try to attain some
> understanding of one another's views…
>
> No, I'm sorry Fuck That.
>
> I understand that they are perfectly mistaken and that's all I need to
> understand.
>
>

===
<twhid>http://www.mteww.com</twhid>
===

, void void

fellow lefterners,

I live in the belly of the beast, i deal with this mindset each day, I'm totally surounded by it, It sucks, I never get to go to a restaurant and not have the plastic republican family sitting at the next table eyeing me like I'm some kind of scum bag terrorist, plus … oh my god my family is multi-racial…OH NO yes we crossbreeding artists are ruining your Arian gene pool.
but I digress…

thank the universe YOU only have to put up with it four more days…

Now how do we( those who disagree with the RNC those who see the hippocracy of the democracy) make it so we do not have to put up with it for… FOUR MORE YEARS?

make sure we support MoveOn.org, make sure we support Kerry, make sure we get people out to vote on election day… and then if Bush is re-elected…

revolution!

AE04
atomicelroy.com