Have you ever dreamed in code?

> 1.) What programming languages do you use?

Lingo, Javascript/VBScript/DHTML, Delphi/Pascal, Visual Basic

> 2.) Why did you choose the language(s) that you use,
> and how did you learn it/them?

I chose Director/Lingo to do interactive audio work on the Web. Learned it
on my own and via asking lots of questions on the Director lists. And
reading the documentation. And a few books. Trial and error, experimentation
etc. Javascript/VBScript/DHTML because the Web uses HTML. Got interested in
it in 1997; 'documents now have not only style and content, but behavior'
fascinated me. Very public and somewhat polyartistic language. Learned it
from online tutorials and documentation. I learned Pascal in University (my
first programming language). Delphi is super-duper RAD Pascal. Learned
Delphi from the Borland documentation and online tutorials and asking
questions on listserves. Actionscript I use now and then in swf I import
into Director. VB I learned a long time ago (mostly forgotten) to create
some of the early stuff at http://vispo.com/software

> 3.) Were you university-trained in programming or
> self-taught? What advantages and disadvantages do you
> see in this method of learning?

Both university-trained and self-taught: studied computer science 1989-91,
have been on my own since. School taught me much I would not have learned on
my own: data structures, analysis of algorithms, theory of language and
computation, intro to OOP, structured programming, OS fundamentals, etc. The
emphasis in computer science is on learning stuff that doesn't change very
quickly. The emphasis is on underlying and general principles of computing.
This provides the ability to pick up other material over a lifetime.

One goes to university to learn things you *don't already know*, and then
there is the unlearning process whereby you keep the best and chuck the
rest, come to your own 'voice'.

> 4.) How concerned are you with a language's political
> implications, i.e. with whether the language is open
> source or not? Why?

The issues of code survival, public service, and the quality of tools are
the three that come to mind to me here. I think the issues involve
tradeoffs. Director is proprietary (Macromedia). But it has been around
since 1987 and has always been in the service of artists, mainly, not like
DHTML, say, which is not so much primarily for artists but for supporting
commerce on the Web. Also, the Director engineers hang out on the Director
lists and there is a sense that the communication with the Director
engineers and managers is pretty good. Also, the community of Director
developers is impressive in its character and experience. There are
Cambridge-trained mathematicians and wooly self-trained California code
freaks. And the range of types of art people are involved in is quite broad.
Also, the quality of the Director tools is very high.

Director developers are always worried that Flash is going to murder
Director. The user-base of Flash is about ten times that of Director. Also,
while the relatively long history of Director is a plus in many ways, there
are issues in the architecture that suggest its end is in its beginnings.

But currently there just isn't another tool that lets me create the sort of
work for the Web I want to create. It's important to use the sort of tools
that are compatible with the form of your own creativity and artistic
aspirations (if such tools exist).

> 5.) Does your choice of programming lamguage effect
> the way you approach a problem you wish to solve with
> that language?

But of course. More importantly, it affects which problems you approach.
Which is why it's important to insist on your own issues, when it's worth
the struggle. It has been said of language that it draws a magic circle
round the realm of the thinkable. Cast many stones in the water.

> 6.) Did you come to New Media Art from Computer
> Science or from the Arts? Discuss the transition.

I did a degree in English and Math. Then produced a literary radio show for
six years, which is where i learned how to use tech creatively and publicly.
then went back to school and studied Computer Science and Math. During that
time produced a literary magazine, got into visual poetry, played drums in a
band, and then started a live poetry reading series. then went to work in
the dot com industry but worked on my site at night…so from the start it
has been *both* art and science for me. There was no transition. Though, in
the beginning, studying English and Math, there was very little
intersection. It came as a startling realization to realize that in
computing was an incredibly fertile zone of intersection of both of my
inclinations to art and math.

> 7.) What does programming add or subtract from an art
> object? Is the artist-programmer giving up control of
> the object by coding it, or introducing more control?

If it merely adds or subtracts, it isn't integrated into the whole gestalt
of the piece.

> 8.) Does each programming language imply an ontology?

The ontology of most programming languages these days is OOP. While it is
'object-oriented', it also is relational. Particular languages differ in the
types of objects that can be created, and the types of relations between
objects (that are 'naturally' supported by the language).

> 9.) Have you ever dreamed in code?

Not that I can remember. But I have dreamt visual poetry before, which might
have had some code in it or been part of the dream within the dream.

> 10.) Can one code art objects that produce catharsis
> in the user?

Why not?

ja
http://vispo.com

On 5 Aug 2004, at 20:34, Lemmy Caution wrote:

> 1.) What programming languages do you use?

6502 assembly, applescript, perl, php, actionscript, lingo (and english)

> 2.) Why did you choose the language(s) that you use,
> and how did you learn it/them?

they chose me, i realised what i wanted the computer to do and the
language of the machine or application i was using necessitated i
discover how to talk to it. learning was mostly through research, both
books , bulletin boards, email - lots of source code and helpful people

> 3.) Were you university-trained in programming or
> self-taught? What advantages and disadvantages do you
> see in this method of learning?

self-taught from my early teens, although computers were part of my
college course, learning pascal, maybe it will be useful one day..
I've generally learned what i needed in the languages i've worked with
- this focussed approach centres on the development of particular ideas
and not what the machine might be able to do. It has lots of
disadvantages, not least the bad coding, crashes, bulging bookshelves
of reference books or confusion in syntax between codes.. these are
always a bit of a distraction.. On the plus side, the structures that
develop or have to be worked in code are much clearer to me in relation
to my ideas than i think would have been possible if i'd been taught a
rigid computer programming course.

> 4.) How concerned are you with a language's political
> implications, i.e. with whether the language is open
> source or not? Why?

open source has always been important, i wouldn't know what i know
without it - sharing this knowledge is extremely important and shows an
emergent 'democracy' in networks. political implications are much more
complicated, not least that most computer languages are based on
american-english. code can also be seen as
poetry and the basic manipulation of data can be achieved with
variables and subroutines in the appropriate language (eg biennale.py
- http://www.0100101110101101.org/home/biennale_py/ or carnivore
http://www.rhizome.org/carnivore/ )

> 5.) Does your choice of programming lamguage effect
> the way you approach a problem you wish to solve with
> that language?

absolutely,
and it's not a problem - it's an idea, that has to be achieved
on the other side its also a software issue unfortunately

> 6.) Did you come to New Media Art from Computer
> Science or from the Arts? Discuss the transition.

i stopped programming in later teens, got into life and came back to it
through my photographic work, so a bit of both..

> 7.) What does programming add or subtract from an art
> object? Is the artist-programmer giving up control of
> the object by coding it, or introducing more control?

depends very much on how the programming influences or is influenced by
the data it munches (and whether it is constructing or influencing the
'art object') . I prefer to work with systems that work with the user
or data it recieves to make the work, although i am equally fascinated
by the logic and control of code over this.. nina pope and karen
guthrie's island mush is a wonderful example of this, an environment
constructed in code which anyone could add to [
http://www.somewhere.org.uk/island/ ]

> 8.) Does each programming language imply an ontology?

the software specific ones do, although OOP always adds to this. the
scope of truly extensible languages is immense though -
"If you want your program to be readable, consider supplying the
argument" Larry Wall

> 9.) Have you ever dreamed in code?

no, it constantly stops me from sleepin

> 10.) Can one code art objects that produce catharsis
> in the user?

no: Eliza
yes: Wirefire


>
> =====
>
>
> ***********************************************************************
> ****
>
> Lewis LaCook –>http://www.lewislacook.com/
>
> XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog-> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/
>
> Collective Writing Projects–> The Wiki–>
> http://www.lewislacook.com/wiki/ Appendix M
> ->http://www.lewislacook.com/AppendixM/
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On fim, 2004-08-05 at 19:34, Lemmy Caution wrote:
> 1.) What programming languages do you use?
Java, Actionscript, php, perl, javascript
>
> 2.) Why did you choose the language(s) that you use,
> and how did you learn it/them?
Most of it was by chance. I learned them all myself, mostly by diving in
and searching for info on the web when needed. I learned perl because of
a sweet job opening for a perl programmer (I didn't get the job), I
learned Java because I didn't want Windows on my computer anymore so I
needed a replacement for Flash. PHP and javascript are things that you
just sorta have to know.
>
>
> 3.) Were you university-trained in programming or
> self-taught? What advantages and disadvantages do you
> see in this method of learning?
Self-taught. I think my approach to programming is a lot less ridgid
than that of trained programmers. For instance, when I begin on a
project, it's rarely a fully formulated project. I start out with a
tidbit here, add a tidbit there, will this work here? How about here?
Sort of feel my way through it. To me, it feels like working with a more
traditional medium. You start with something and then slowly, shape it,
mold it into something, anything.
>
> 4.) How concerned are you with a language's political
> implications, i.e. with whether the language is open
> source or not? Why?
Open source is starting to entice me more and more but I'm not quite
there yet. Getting rid of Flash was a big step in that direction. I'd be
really happy if they would open Java, but it's not very likely.
>
> 5.) Does your choice of programming lamguage effect
> the way you approach a problem you wish to solve with
> that language?
I wouldn't say that I ever have a problem that I would like to solve
with a certain language. It's more like, "I have this problem, which
language is best suited to solve it?" And if the answer happens to be a
language I don't know, then great. It's a perfect opportunity to finally
learn that language.
>
> 6.) Did you come to New Media Art from Computer
> Science or from the Arts? Discuss the transition.
My background is in the visual arts. The transition? I wouldn't really
call it a transition. I don't know what I would call it though.
Evolution. That's it. Art has been moving in this direction for a while
and this is the logical 'next step'.
>
> 7.) What does programming add or subtract from an art
> object? Is the artist-programmer giving up control of
> the object by coding it, or introducing more control?
It's not about giving up or introducing more control. It's just a
different kind of control. We can allow users to control certain aspects
and we can control certain aspects. It's entirely up to us. We can even
control the control that the users have or even control the outcome of
the control that the user has or we can make it so the user has no
control or the user can have complete control without really having any
control over their own control. It's not more, it's not less, it's just
different.
>
> 8.) Does each programming language imply an ontology?
This depends on the ability of the artist. Same as with all media.
There's all the Flash stuff that looks like Flash stuff, but then
there's the Flash stuff that doesn't look like Flash stuff. It depends
on the artist. Essentially, programming art isn't all that different
than more traditional artistic mediums. What the medium can do, depends
entirely on the artists knowledge of it.
>
> 9.) Have you ever dreamed in code?
Daydreamed.
>
> 10.) Can one code art objects that produce catharsis
> in the user?
I don't see why not.
>
>
> =====
>
>
> ***************************************************************************
>
> Lewis LaCook –>http://www.lewislacook.com/
>
> XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog-> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/
>
> Collective Writing Projects–> The Wiki–> http://www.lewislacook.com/wiki/ Appendix M ->http://www.lewislacook.com/AppendixM/
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–
_________________________________
Pall Thayer
artist/teacher
http://www.this.is/pallit
http://130.208.220.190
http://130.208.220.190/nuharm
http://130.208.220.190/panse
—————————–

On Thursday, August 05, 2004, at 08:47PM, Lemmy Caution <[email protected]> wrote:

>1.) What programming languages do you use?

Mainly Lisp at teh moment. In the recent past I've used Dylan, Python and Prolog.

>2.) Why did you choose the language(s) that you use,
>and how did you learn it/them?

Lisp because Harold Cohen and all the coolest hackers use it. Dylan because it facinated me historically. Python because I feared Perl. prolog because it intrigued me and it's very good for structured data and graphics(!).
I was self-taught for all of them, from books and web articles. C and C++ I learnt overlapping my time at the CEA.
I spent five years as a Java developer and came to hate the language. I can also program Perl, AppleScript, Objective-C, JavaScript/ActionScript, Hpertalk/Lingo and others. I'm useless at the score/timeline for Director and Flash, though.

>3.) Were you university-trained in programming or
>self-taught? What advantages and disadvantages do you
>see in this method of learning?

I've been programming since I was a kid, with a one year art & programming MA at cea.mdx.ac.uk . I've always had the luxury of time to learn languages. The Uni education gave me the support to learn things like Handles that I couldn't crack on my own, and helped with the cultural side of coding.

>4.) How concerned are you with a language's political
>implications, i.e. with whether the language is open
>source or not? Why?

Very. I have invested hundreds of hours into coding, I don't want that wiped out by a takeover or a cool new version of a language with no backward compatibility. I also don't want a language that will bloat wuickly, like C++ and Java.

>5.) Does your choice of programming lamguage effect
>the way you approach a problem you wish to solve with
>that language?

Yes. C++ feels like a straitjacket after using more dynamic languages like Dylan/Python/Lisp. And using a compiled langauge after ascripting language is so slooooow to develop and test in.
I went through a phase of prototyping in Prolog then moving it to another language when the code became too complex. It can be good to move between multiple languages, like sketching in pencil and acrylic before breaking out the oils.

>6.) Did you come to New Media Art from Computer
>Science or from the Arts? Discuss the transition.

From art, although as I say I'd done hobby programming (BASIC, Logo) from an early age. I became interested in computer typography which led to PostScript and then on to more programming.

>7.) What does programming add or subtract from an art
>object? Is the artist-programmer giving up control of
>the object by coding it, or introducing more control?

I regard computing as a print-making medium. The freedoms and limitations are comparable.

>8.) Does each programming language imply an ontology?

Each *family* of langauges does, although there may be ontological units eg prefix/infix oo/functional dynamic/static strongly typed/manifest typed etc.

>9.) Have you ever dreamed in code?

Ugh, no. I don't think I've ever even dreamt of a computer. My dreams are mainly architectural and dramatic.

>10.) Can one code art objects that produce catharsis
>in the user?

Yes. I wrote a small script to print "I am drunk" repeatedly the other night. It was very cathartic.

Paul Graham (www.paulgraham.com) is good on the relative merits of programming languages.

- Rob.

On Aug 5, 2004, at 3:34 PM, Lemmy Caution wrote:

> 1.) What programming languages do you use?

Ruby, as much as I can. PHP, Perl, ColdFusion, ASP and Javascript when
I have to.

> 2.) Why did you choose the language(s) that you use,
> and how did you learn it/them?

Every time I changed languages it was in an effort to make my
programming work less buggy and less mentally taxing. Compared to C++,
Perl was a better way to write code that comformed to your thoughts,
but it made it hard to keep your thoughts structured. Compared to Perl,
Java was a better way to structure algorithms and create automatically
testable interfaces, but its strict typing made refactoring painful.
Compared to Java, Ruby offers lots of pure OO but without holding back
the desire for massive refactoring or extremely high-end
metaprogramming.

I suspect that if Smalltalk weren't so marginal, I'd use that instead
of Ruby, but I'm not in the mood to go that niche.

> 3.) Were you university-trained in programming or
> self-taught? What advantages and disadvantages do you
> see in this method of learning?

Although I do occasionally feel the allure of studying the deep
algorithms of high-end computer science, most of my programming
practice is more as engineer than as a scientist. There's a good phrase
about this: "An engineer can do for a dime what any fool can do for a
dollar." Having cool ideas isn't much fun if it's going to take you a
year to code it right, and then you have to abandon the code to entropy
after six more months.

In the field of software engineering (as opposed to computer science)
there's almost no established pedagogy, so university education is
going to be fairly useless. In the commercial world, academic coders
have a reputation (somewhat deserved) for writing sloppy code. My own
CS classes were sometimes intellectually inspiring (I particularly dug
discrete math) but did nothing for me in terms of writing robust code.
Instead I read a lot: Some of the various XP/Agile/methodology books,
the c2 wiki was once brilliant but has since devolved rapidly. Also,
user groups and conferences are helpful for this stuff.

> 4.) How concerned are you with a language's political
> implications, i.e. with whether the language is open
> source or not? Why?

In the long-term open source and open standards win, but in the short
term that's not always the case. Also, a lot of open source projects
have extremely crappy internal standards, so the benefits from reuse
aren't so good if you have to add a lot of functionality yourself.

I actually think open standards matter more than open source, too,
though in practice the two often go hand in hand.

>
> 5.) Does your choice of programming lamguage effect
> the way you approach a problem you wish to solve with
> that language?

Sure it does. Some things are easier in some languages than in others.
The challenge is to find a language that matches the way you yourself
like to solve problems.

>
> 6.) Did you come to New Media Art from Computer
> Science or from the Arts? Discuss the transition.

I probably came from both directions: I studied both art and computers
through high school and college without thinking heavily about how to
integrate the two. For me the internet was essential in getting me into
what you could call NMA: It made computers more apparently a cultural
phenomenon, something that could be aesthetically explored without
being excessively marginal.

Of course, marginality is in the eye of the beholder. One of my pieces
was a Markov-chaining hallucinogen for LambdaMOO … There are probably
only, say, ten thousand people on the planet who were ever invested
enough in such a textual interface to find the wordplay interesting.

> 7.) What does programming add or subtract from an art
> object? Is the artist-programmer giving up control of
> the object by coding it, or introducing more control?

Programming lets you do things you couldn't do before. For me the big
appeals are interactivity and networking; others might list things such
as generative art, or highly coordinated control of machinery, sound,
etc., etc.

It's definitely true that complex tools make it harder for intentions
to be communicated creatively. I think it's been interesting to watch
what happens as new media art commissions get bigger and more
technically ambitious – what happens to the structures of
collaboration? It's worth noting that in two other large-scale creative
domains–architecture and film–collaboration tends to be extremely
hierarchical. There are very notable exceptions (Christopher Alexander
in architecture, for example, or, say, the highly improvisational
process of many of Mike Leigh's films) but those are notable because of
their rarity.

> 8.) Does each programming language imply an ontology?

They imply the belief in the validity of the idea of ontology itself.
Scratch under the surface in OO design and you'll find these debates
raging. People in stricter typing languages (C++, Java) tend to believe
that you need to set up this deep forest of Platonic types before you
can write a single line of code. We dynamic folks (Ruby, Smalltalk) are
much more likely to believe that types are practical and provisional,
but have no reality behind them. You discover types as you need them,
and you discard them if you think they're no longer relevant to your
task.

> 9.) Have you ever dreamed in code?

Yeah, plenty of times. I've had database designs running through my
head while I'm dancing, too.

>
> 10.) Can one code art objects that produce catharsis
> in the user?

Hopefully, yes, but how do we get past the slick technologized surface
of the things we create? I think this problem isn't solved yet, not by
a long shot.


Francis Hwang
Director of Technology
Rhizome.org
phone: 212-219-1288x202
AIM: francisrhizome
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