Apple Basic from 1987

But why wouldn't he proceed to get that working using a 1987 Macintosh??

Geert
(http://nznl.com)

On Jun 13, 2004, at 11:14 PM, Jim Andrews wrote:

> There's a terrific long-time visual poet from Schenectady named Geof
> Huth
> who did some computer poetry in 1987 using Apple Basic. I'm wondering
> how he
> might proceed to get at least part of that working now. He does have
> the
> code. Apparently it was full screen and involved sound and kinetic
> poetry.
> Suggestions? His blog, by the way, is http://www.dbqp.blogspot.com and
> is
> well worth checking out.
>
> ja
>
>
> +
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don't think he has a 1987 Macintosh. is Apple Basic from 1987 still
supported on the Mac?

ja

> But why wouldn't he proceed to get that working using a 1987 Macintosh??
>
> Geert
> (http://nznl.com)

I'll check out his blog and ask to see the code. It should be
possible to re-cast it into something else. It would interesting
to look at the code and see what it does. Since for a long time
artists and programmers were seperate lots (groups) programming
languages were never designed to accomplish art taks. Some things
are powerful but there is a high overhead to learning them.
Others are easier but don't let one have the level of manipulation
that real programming languages do. I dunno how easy it would be for
a random art type to learn Java, I remember a friend who wrote all
these neat little Java things with sound effects and all. She had
train whistles, lion roars, seven second cuts from Xena the warrior
Princess, so I could imagine all sort of stuff couldbe done in Java.
I missed picking up Visual Java for $2.00 in a trift store once. Drat!;)
Anyway I'll ask around


> But why wouldn't he proceed to get that working using a 1987 Macintosh??
>
> Geert
> (http://nznl.com)
>
> On Jun 13, 2004, at 11:14 PM, Jim Andrews wrote:
>
>> There's a terrific long-time visual poet from Schenectady named Geof
>> Huth
>> who did some computer poetry in 1987 using Apple Basic. I'm wondering
>> how he
>> might proceed to get at least part of that working now. He does have
>> the
>> code. Apparently it was full screen and involved sound and kinetic
>> poetry.
>> Suggestions? His blog, by the way, is http://www.dbqp.blogspot.com and
>> is
>> well worth checking out.
>>
>> ja
>>
>>
>> +
>> -> post: [email protected]
>> -> questions: [email protected]
>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
>> +
>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>>
>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

I'd like to see it too. Perhaps I could help porting it to something
more contemporary.

Geert

(Apple/Mac fan, programmer, random art type – http://nznl.com)

On Jun 14, 2004, at 6:05 AM, [email protected] wrote:

> I'll check out his blog and ask to see the code. It should be
> possible to re-cast it into something else. It would interesting
> to look at the code and see what it does. Since for a long time
> artists and programmers were seperate lots (groups) programming
> languages were never designed to accomplish art taks. Some things
> are powerful but there is a high overhead to learning them.
> Others are easier but don't let one have the level of manipulation
> that real programming languages do. I dunno how easy it would be for
> a random art type to learn Java, I remember a friend who wrote all
> these neat little Java things with sound effects and all. She had
> train whistles, lion roars, seven second cuts from Xena the warrior
> Princess, so I could imagine all sort of stuff couldbe done in Java.
> I missed picking up Visual Java for $2.00 in a trift store once.
> Drat!;)
> Anyway I'll ask around
>
>
>> But why wouldn't he proceed to get that working using a 1987
>> Macintosh??
>>
>> Geert
>> (http://nznl.com)
>>
>> On Jun 13, 2004, at 11:14 PM, Jim Andrews wrote:
>>
>>> There's a terrific long-time visual poet from Schenectady named Geof
>>> Huth
>>> who did some computer poetry in 1987 using Apple Basic. I'm wondering
>>> how he
>>> might proceed to get at least part of that working now. He does have
>>> the
>>> code. Apparently it was full screen and involved sound and kinetic
>>> poetry.
>>> Suggestions? His blog, by the way, is http://www.dbqp.blogspot.com
>>> and
>>> is
>>> well worth checking out.
>>>
>>> ja
>>>
>>>
>>> +
>>> -> post: [email protected]
>>> -> questions: [email protected]
>>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
>>> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>>> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
>>> +
>>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>>> Membership Agreement available online at
>>> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>>>
>>
>> +
>> -> post: [email protected]
>> -> questions: [email protected]
>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
>> +
>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>> Membership Agreement available online at
>> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>>
>
>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

On Sunday, June 13, 2004, at 11:51PM, Jim Andrews <[email protected]> wrote:

>don't think he has a 1987 Macintosh. is Apple Basic from 1987 still
>supported on the Mac?

No. Think Turbo Pascal. :-)

For a line-number-and-goto basic for MacOSX, try:

http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/22597

For a Pascal-style Basic (no line numbers), try:

http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/7381

Or there's RealBasic, a VB-style system, which is very popular but a bit bloated:

http://www.realbasic.com/

Alternatively, they could get a Mac Plus emulator and emulate a 1987-era Mac and run the old basic on that.

Java is horrible (I spent 5 years programming it). Go for RealBasic or a real programming language like Lisp. :-) Failing that, Python seems to be a very popular not-too-complex language at the moment. It can do UIs as well.

- Rob.

Hmmmm Well with words one could do all sorts of things
in elisp which is the LISP that lives inside of EMACS.
I have an improved cut-up package for dissociated-press somewhere.;)
But seeing the things he wants to do I am trying to think of
a language that will do it well. Lots of people hate Java,
lots of people really like it. The biggest complaint I have
heard is that it is cute to do play things in but the minute
you try ro upgrade to something real trouble creeps in.
But the things he was doing seemed like they would work very
nicely in Flash, but all that Macromedia stuff is megaexpensive.
But I have thought of making abstract movies and the like.


When I was thinking of Java Tools I was thinking of things
like this: http://adds.aviationweather.gov/java/
which although is for aviation weather, years of using/playing
with Sat Images and the look, it has it a structure to it that
could be used for artistitic purposes,

Have Fun,
Sends Steve

P.S. This is why I get irritated at people for arresting people
for gowing Serratia Marcencens because its pretty or its inter4sting.
Next they'll say unusual interest in Aviation Tools and Toys shows
terroristic intent.

A friend of mine pointed me at a site she uses for teaching
that is built with PHP stuff. Although generally I think people
take all the Interactive Web Page far far…hmmm it has trickled
into my head that an interactive section of a Bill of Rights site
might be a great thing. I usually complain that people really don't
know what the Bill of Rights say, it might be nice to look up
court cases, and throny issues about "can x say that in y situation"
or other questions and have them interact rather than read what
seem to be dull lectures. But this will require more thought…

Anyway if anyone finds modeling or imaging tools that
they use for collage or visual poetry or stuff like that I
would love to hear about it.



> On Sunday, June 13, 2004, at 11:51PM, Jim Andrews <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>don't think he has a 1987 Macintosh. is Apple Basic from 1987 still
>>supported on the Mac?
>
> No. Think Turbo Pascal. :-)
>
> For a line-number-and-goto basic for MacOSX, try:
>
> http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/22597
>
> For a Pascal-style Basic (no line numbers), try:
>
> http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/7381
>
> Or there's RealBasic, a VB-style system, which is very popular but a bit
> bloated:
>
> http://www.realbasic.com/
>
> Alternatively, they could get a Mac Plus emulator and emulate a 1987-era
> Mac and run the old basic on that.
>
> Java is horrible (I spent 5 years programming it). Go for RealBasic or a
> real programming language like Lisp. :-) Failing that, Python seems to be
> a very popular not-too-complex language at the moment. It can do UIs as
> well.
>
> - Rob.
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

On Monday, June 14, 2004, at 12:33PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

>Hmmmm Well with words one could do all sorts of things
>in elisp which is the LISP that lives inside of EMACS.
>I have an improved cut-up package for dissociated-press somewhere.;)
>But seeing the things he wants to do I am trying to think of
>a language that will do it well. Lots of people hate Java,
>lots of people really like it. The biggest complaint I have
>heard is that it is cute to do play things in but the minute
>you try ro upgrade to something real trouble creeps in.
>But the things he was doing seemed like they would work very
>nicely in Flash, but all that Macromedia stuff is megaexpensive.
>But I have thought of making abstract movies and the like.
>
>When I was thinking of Java Tools I was thinking of things
>like this: http://adds.aviationweather.gov/java/
>which although is for aviation weather, years of using/playing
>with Sat Images and the look, it has it a structure to it that
>could be used for artistitic purposes,

If you want a good environment for graphical programming, try Processing, which is Java-based, cross-platform and (F|f)ree. It looks very easy to learn and be productive in, and has some quite powerful features:

http://processing.org/

It doesn't have a timeline or drawing tools, but it does have all the media and scripting support and can be extended in Java if really needed.

- Rob.

Steve, et al.,

I've been muddling through the issue of my Apple Basic code for a while. I no longer have access to an Apple II machine (and my floppies–about eight years old–are doubtless useless by now. So I've tried another tactic: emulation. I downloaded an emulator for Apple II machines, but I can't run the programs. Jim Andrews assumes I need an emulator for an Apple Basic, but I can't find one.

Here's my Apple Basic code for my shortest poem:

100 HOME
110 SPEED= 100
120 VTAB 8: HTAB 23: PRINT “CLEAVE”
130 VTAB 9: HTAB 23: PRINT “CLEAVE”
140 FOR PAUSE = 1 TO
150: NEXT
150 SPEED= 250
160 VTAB 8: HTAB 26: PRINT “ AVE”
170 VTAB 9: HTAB 26: PRINT “ AVE”
180 FOR PAUSE = 1 TO 2000: NEXT
190 VTAB 8: HTAB 23: PRINT “ ”
200 VTAB 7: HTAB 23: PRINT “CLE AVE”
210 VTAB 9:HTAB
23: PRINT “ ”
220 VTAB 10: HTAB 23: PRINT “ ”
230 FOR PAUSE = 1 TO 1000: NEXT
240 VTAB 7: HTAB 23: PRINT “CLEAVE ”
250 VTAB 10: HTAB 23: PRINT “CLEAVE ”
260 FOR PAUSE = 1 TO 1000: NEXT
270 VTAB 7: HTAB 23: PRINT “CLEAVE”
280 VTAB 8: HTAB 23: PRINT “CLEAVE”
290 VTABL 10: HTAB 23: PRINT “ ”
300 VTAB 9: HTAB 23: PRINT “CLEAVE”
310 VTAB 9: HTAB 23: PRINT “ ”
320 FOR PAUSE = 1 TO 2000: NEXT
330 HOME
340 REM WRITTEN 29 NOV 1987, JOHNSTOWN, NY
350 END

And here's a link to my blog entry discussing this issue:

http://dbqp.blogspot.com/2004/08/not-quite-emulating-past.html

Thanks for any help.

Geof

Steve Kudlak wrote:

> I'll check out his blog and ask to see the code. It should be
> possible to re-cast it into something else. It would interesting
> to look at the code and see what it does. Since for a long time
> artists and programmers were seperate lots (groups) programming
> languages were never designed to accomplish art taks. Some things
> are powerful but there is a high overhead to learning them.
> Others are easier but don't let one have the level of manipulation
> that real programming languages do. I dunno how easy it would be for
> a random art type to learn Java, I remember a friend who wrote all
> these neat little Java things with sound effects and all. She had
> train whistles, lion roars, seven second cuts from Xena the warrior
> Princess, so I could imagine all sort of stuff couldbe done in Java.
> I missed picking up Visual Java for $2.00 in a trift store once.
> Drat!;)
> Anyway I'll ask around
>
>
> > But why wouldn't he proceed to get that working using a 1987
> Macintosh??
> >
> > Geert
> > (http://nznl.com)
> >
> > On Jun 13, 2004, at 11:14 PM, Jim Andrews wrote:
> >
> >> There's a terrific long-time visual poet from Schenectady named
> Geof
> >> Huth
> >> who did some computer poetry in 1987 using Apple Basic. I'm
> wondering
> >> how he
> >> might proceed to get at least part of that working now. He does
> have
> >> the
> >> code. Apparently it was full screen and involved sound and kinetic
> >> poetry.
> >> Suggestions? His blog, by the way, is http://www.dbqp.blogspot.com
> and
> >> is
> >> well worth checking out.
> >>
> >> ja
> >>
> >>
> >> +
> >> -> post: [email protected]
> >> -> questions: [email protected]
> >> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> >> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> >> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to
> non-members
> >> +
> >> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> >> Membership Agreement available online at
> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >>
> >
> > +
> > -> post: [email protected]
> > -> questions: [email protected]
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at
> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >
>
>

hi geof,

yeah, i'm not sure if you'd need an apple basic emulator, given that you
have an apple emulator, or what.

http://www.filelibrary.com/Contents/DOS/95/1.html has a zip file that says
it's "An Apple ][+ Emulator that will run Any apple basic programs, or
machine language programs."

maybe if you have this you don't need the apple emulator.

but i am really not all that familiar with emulators or macs.

suggestions?

ja

just to let people know, Geof has his Apple //e code running successfully
now. we saw a couple of newsgroups referenced in the help file of the older
Apple //e emulator for the PC. the old emulator was working for Geof but not
for me, for some reason (though we're both running XP), so we poked around
on those newsgroups and found a recent post about a new version of the
emulator, and a link to the new version of the emulator. and by gory by gosh
by gum it works. i was able to experience a bit of geof's 1987 computer
poetry for the Apple //e on my PC.

that's pretty cool. i hope there's a PC/Windows emulator that works as well
as this one, down the road.

the emulator's source code is open. different people have updated the
emulator over time as the PC has changed.

ja