"Protocol"--Excerpt from Chapter 6 "Tactial Media"

Dear Alex:

Big congrats on your new book.
Sounds great and will pick it up soon.

Cheers,
Lee

on 3/2/04 20:35, Alexander Galloway at [email protected] wrote:

> "Protocol: How Control Exists After Decentralization"
> Excerpt from Chapter 6 "Tactial Media":
>
> Arquilla and Ronfeldt coined the term netwar, which they define as "an
> emerging mode of conflict (and crime) at societal levels, short of
> traditional military warfare, in which the protagonists use network
> forms of organization and related doctrines, strategies, and
> technologies attuned to the information age."
>
> Throughout the years new diagrams (also called graphs or organizational
> designs) have appeared as solutions or threats to existing ones.
> Bureaucracy is a diagram. Hierarchy is one too, as is peer-to-peer.
> Designs come and go, serving as useful asset managers at one historical
> moment, then disappearing, or perhaps fading only to reemerge later as
> useful again. The Cold War was synonymous with a specific military
> diagram–bilateral symmetry, mutual assured destruction (MAD),
> massiveness, might, containment, deterrence, negotiation; the war
> against drugs has a different diagram–multiplicity, specificity, law
> and criminality, personal fear, public awareness.
>
> This book is largely about one specific diagram, or organizational
> design, called distribution, and its approximate relationship in a
> larger historical transformation involving digital computers and
> ultimately the control mechanism called protocol.
>
> In this diagramatic narrative it is possible to pick sides and describe
> one diagram as the protagonist and another as the antagonist. Thus the
> rhizome is thought to be the solution to the tree, the wildcat strike
> the solution to the boss's control, Toyotism the solution to
> institutional bureaucracy, and so on. Alternately, terrorism is thought
> to be the only real threat to state power, the homeless punk rocker a
> threat to sedentary domesticity, the guerrilla a threat to the war
> machine, the temporary autonomous zone a threat to hegemonic culture,
> and so on.
>
> This type of conflict is in fact a conflict between different social
> structures, for the terrorist threatens not only through fear and
> violence, but specifically through the use of a cellular organizational
> structure, a distributed network of secretive combatants, rather than a
> centralized organizational structure employed by the police and other
> state institutions. Terrorism is a sign that we are in a transitional
> moment in history. (Could there ever be anything else?) It signals that
> historical actors are not in a relationship of equilibrium, but are
> instead grossly mismatched.
>
> It is often observed that, due largely to the original comments of
> networking pioneer Paul Baran, the Internet was invented to avoid
> certain vulnerabilities of nuclear attack. In Baran's original vision,
> the organizational design of the Internet involved a high degree of
> redundancy, such that destruction of a part of the network would not
> threaten the viability of the network as a whole. After World War II,
> strategists called for moving industrial targets outside urban cores in
> a direct response to fears of nuclear attack. Peter Galison calls this
> dispersion the "constant vigilance against the re-creation of new
> centers." These are the same centers that Baran derided as an "Achilles'
> heel" and that he longed to purge from the telecommunications network.
>
> "City by city, country by country, the bomb helped drive dispersion,"
> Galison continues, highlighting the power of the A-bomb to drive the
> push toward distribution in urban planning. Whereas the destruction of a
> fleet of Abrams tanks would certainly impinge upon army battlefield
> maneuvers, the destruction of a rack of Cisco routers would do little to
> slow down broader network communications. Internet traffic would simply
> find a new route, thus circumventing the downed machines.
>
> (In this way, destruction must be performed absolutely, or not at all.
> "The only way to stop Gnutella," comments WiredPlanet CEO Thomas Hale on
> the popular file sharing protocol, "is to turn off the Internet." And
> this is shown earlier in my examination of protocol's high penalties
> levied against deviation. One is completely compatible with a protocol,
> or not at all.)
>
> Thus the Internet can survive attacks not because it is stronger than
> the opposition, but precisely because it is weaker. The Internet has a
> different diagram than a nuclear attack does; it is in a different
> shape. And that new shape happens to be immune to the older.
>
> All the words used to describe the World Trade Center after the attacks
> of September 11, 2001, revealed its design vulnerabilities vis-a-vis
> terrorists: It was a tower, a center, an icon, a pillar, a hub.
> Conversely, terrorists are always described with a different vocabulary:
> They are cellular, networked, modular, and nimble. Groups like Al Qaeda
> specifically promote a modular, distributed structure based on small
> autonomous groups. They write that new recruits "should not know one
> another," and that training sessions should be limited to "7

Maybe we misunderstand some part's of this text(we don't speak English good
enough),but it seems to us as like serious contribution for better
understanding of recent global processes in West ideological system(flexible
and non-fixed premises which are in permanent changing and expansion,they
involve in every angle of West.from Center to the Periphery)."Main
Subject(U.S.A)as like a undivided construction of produce,ethic and
aesthetic."(J.Habermas) is in permanent changing of axioms,micro strategies
and pragmatic destruction/de-construction, appears in double role;world
lieder and destroyer.This is voice from Periphery(after all Nazareth was
periphery of Roman empire)."Drang nach Ost"(Hitler's main strategy)appears
to Balkan in most lascivious shape just thru American re-animation of
fascist tewtonic mythology.
In geostrategic analysis Kosovo(part of Serbia)was marked in early 80-is as
a potential place for starting third world war.Meanwhile,Berlin wall as a
symbol of cold war fall.There wasn't threat from U.S.S.R side,but still this
area stay important for U.S.A.(Oil rout from Black sea thru Europe).In
short- what was American strategy to destabilize Serbia,and take
Kosovo(Bondstil in Kosovo is biggest U.S.A base in Europe).
1./Businessman George Soros show's his "philanthropy"in donation for
health,culture,art.In great depression(1993)when average salary in country
was about 5$(per month)his domestic employ take few hundred $.
2./This corruption became more obviously latter."Philanthropy"became open
corruption.In middle of nineties Soros own on his pay list influent people
from politic,art,medium,student's organization.That was infrastructure for
creating public opinion and make divide in urban social body(Belgrade).
3./He created his own "art scene",so called non-government
organization("Free society's"),whole infrastructure which was latter very
useful(and still is)for his interest,which include American interests
too.(He want for him self "Trepca"cooper factory,one of biggest resource of
this mineral on the world.)
4./Albanians from Kosovo so called Shiptar's still live in tribal
organization.
5./They separatism is based on unusual huge natality(duty of every Shiptar
woman is to birth at list 9 to 10 children).Including high mortality because
of primitive environment average community lie in houses behind high
walls,and it's contended often with more than 40 people.
6./In former Yugoslavia they refused to use opportunity which include scull
on they own language,and University.Instead they invite professors from
Albania(another country).
7./Constantly in fear,with low natality,under Shiptar violence,Serbs sales
their properties on Kosovo and run away to Serbia.
8./Civil war in former Yugoslavia was ideal opportunity to push with
violence against Serbs who wasn't left Kosovo.
9./Consequence was attempt from Serbian side to make order in their own
county.But,suddenly,International community baptize that as like "broke of
human right".
10./Without any consultation with U.N,NATO forces attacked Serbia and during
three month killed more than 2500 civilians.
11./Status of Kosovo is not defined yet.This area theoretically still belong
to Serbia,but they try to made institution just like independent country.
12./G.Soros supporting that.
13./Without constitution,institution of low,without drug's dpt.in
police,Kosovo is one of biggest heroin producer on the world.Whole village's
are heroin fabric.Even international "peace forces"don't have access into
this villages.
14./Woman trafficking,drug's,weapon market are legal in Kosovo.
15./Very well organized(is almost impossible to infiltrate in
their"families"),with long criminal experience,indoctrinate with Islamic
ideology,Shiptars are potential terrorist threat for area,and after
independence for America too.
16./We doubt in U.S.A and Shiptars friendship on long way.
17./America's engagement in to many countries in the world put this country
in unpleasant position;only permanent expansion could guaranty secure.
18./That expansion couldn't be ad infinitum.
19./Every machine must stop ones.
20./When this huge machine(U.S.A)ones stop(this is unavoidable)there's no
NetWare diagram to be helpful.

MANIK


—– Original Message —–
From: "Alexander Galloway" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 2:35 AM
Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: "Protocol"–Excerpt from Chapter 6 "Tactial Media"


> "Protocol: How Control Exists After Decentralization"
> Excerpt from Chapter 6 "Tactial Media":
>
> Arquilla and Ronfeldt coined the term netwar, which they define as "an
> emerging mode of conflict (and crime) at societal levels, short of
> traditional military warfare, in which the protagonists use network
> forms of organization and related doctrines, strategies, and
> technologies attuned to the information age."
>
> Throughout the years new diagrams (also called graphs or organizational
> designs) have appeared as solutions or threats to existing ones.
> Bureaucracy is a diagram. Hierarchy is one too, as is peer-to-peer.
> Designs come and go, serving as useful asset managers at one historical
> moment, then disappearing, or perhaps fading only to reemerge later as
> useful again. The Cold War was synonymous with a specific military
> diagram–bilateral symmetry, mutual assured destruction (MAD),
> massiveness, might, containment, deterrence, negotiation; the war
> against drugs has a different diagram–multiplicity, specificity, law
> and criminality, personal fear, public awareness.
>
> This book is largely about one specific diagram, or organizational
> design, called distribution, and its approximate relationship in a
> larger historical transformation involving digital computers and
> ultimately the control mechanism called protocol.
>
> In this diagramatic narrative it is possible to pick sides and describe
> one diagram as the protagonist and another as the antagonist. Thus the
> rhizome is thought to be the solution to the tree, the wildcat strike
> the solution to the boss's control, Toyotism the solution to
> institutional bureaucracy, and so on. Alternately, terrorism is thought
> to be the only real threat to state power, the homeless punk rocker a
> threat to sedentary domesticity, the guerrilla a threat to the war
> machine, the temporary autonomous zone a threat to hegemonic culture,
> and so on.
>
> This type of conflict is in fact a conflict between different social
> structures, for the terrorist threatens not only through fear and
> violence, but specifically through the use of a cellular organizational
> structure, a distributed network of secretive combatants, rather than a
> centralized organizational structure employed by the police and other
> state institutions. Terrorism is a sign that we are in a transitional
> moment in history. (Could there ever be anything else?) It signals that
> historical actors are not in a relationship of equilibrium, but are
> instead grossly mismatched.
>
> It is often observed that, due largely to the original comments of
> networking pioneer Paul Baran, the Internet was invented to avoid
> certain vulnerabilities of nuclear attack. In Baran's original vision,
> the organizational design of the Internet involved a high degree of
> redundancy, such that destruction of a part of the network would not
> threaten the viability of the network as a whole. After World War II,
> strategists called for moving industrial targets outside urban cores in
> a direct response to fears of nuclear attack. Peter Galison calls this
> dispersion the "constant vigilance against the re-creation of new
> centers." These are the same centers that Baran derided as an "Achilles'
> heel" and that he longed to purge from the telecommunications network.
>
> "City by city, country by country, the bomb helped drive dispersion,"
> Galison continues, highlighting the power of the A-bomb to drive the
> push toward distribution in urban planning. Whereas the destruction of a
> fleet of Abrams tanks would certainly impinge upon army battlefield
> maneuvers, the destruction of a rack of Cisco routers would do little to
> slow down broader network communications. Internet traffic would simply
> find a new route, thus circumventing the downed machines.
>
> (In this way, destruction must be performed absolutely, or not at all.
> "The only way to stop Gnutella," comments WiredPlanet CEO Thomas Hale on
> the popular file sharing protocol, "is to turn off the Internet." And
> this is shown earlier in my examination of protocol's high penalties
> levied against deviation. One is completely compatible with a protocol,
> or not at all.)
>
> Thus the Internet can survive attacks not because it is stronger than
> the opposition, but precisely because it is weaker. The Internet has a
> different diagram than a nuclear attack does; it is in a different
> shape. And that new shape happens to be immune to the older.
>
> All the words used to describe the World Trade Center after the attacks
> of September 11, 2001, revealed its design vulnerabilities vis-a-vis
> terrorists: It was a tower, a center, an icon, a pillar, a hub.
> Conversely, terrorists are always described with a different vocabulary:
> They are cellular, networked, modular, and nimble. Groups like Al Qaeda
> specifically promote a modular, distributed structure based on small
> autonomous groups. They write that new recruits "should not know one
> another," and that training sessions should be limited to "7

Hi Manik
I marched against the US/UK aggression in former
Yugoslavia and I spoke and organised against it too.
You're undoubtedly right to assert that the oil route
had more to do with it than any "humanitarian"
concern,
though I'm not convinced that you need Alex's text to
support that case.
What I'm certain of is that I find it disconcerting &
depressing to see people whose work I admire use the
language of the chauvinist and racist in talking about
an entire people ( see extract below)
"they breed too much , they're criminals and they have
strange ideas" is the refrain of every bar stool
racist the world over as well as the official
discourse of, say, the protestant majority in the Six
Counties of Ireland , or the Israeli government, or
David Blunkett on asylum seekers, or the late
unlamented South African Apartheid regime.
michael


< 4./Albanians from Kosovo so called Shiptar's still
live in tribal
organization.
5./They separatism is based on unusual huge
natality(duty of every Shiptar
woman is to birth at list 9 to 10
children).Including high mortality because
of primitive environment average community lie in
houses behind high
walls,and it's contended often with more than 40
people.
6./In former Yugoslavia they refused to use
opportunity which include scull
on they own language,and University.Instead they
invite professors from
Albania(another country).
14./Woman trafficking,drug's,weapon market are legal
in Kosovo.
15./Very well organized(is almost impossible to
infiltrate in
their"families"),with long criminal
experience,indoctrinate with Islamic
ideology,Shiptars are potential terrorist threat for
area,and after
independence for America too.>

\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com

Hi Michael,
You are very naive.
MANIK
—– Original Message —–
From: "Michael Szpakowski" <[email protected]>
To: "manik" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: "Protocol"–Excerpt from Chapter 6 "Tactial Media"


> Hi Manik
> I marched against the US/UK aggression in former
> Yugoslavia and I spoke and organised against it too.
> You're undoubtedly right to assert that the oil route
> had more to do with it than any "humanitarian"
> concern,
> though I'm not convinced that you need Alex's text to
> support that case.
> What I'm certain of is that I find it disconcerting &
> depressing to see people whose work I admire use the
> language of the chauvinist and racist in talking about
> an entire people ( see extract below)
> "they breed too much , they're criminals and they have
> strange ideas" is the refrain of every bar stool
> racist the world over as well as the official
> discourse of, say, the protestant majority in the Six
> Counties of Ireland , or the Israeli government, or
> David Blunkett on asylum seekers, or the late
> unlamented South African Apartheid regime.
> michael
>
>
> < 4./Albanians from Kosovo so called Shiptar's still
> live in tribal
> organization.
> 5./They separatism is based on unusual huge
> natality(duty of every Shiptar
> woman is to birth at list 9 to 10
> children).Including high mortality because
> of primitive environment average community lie in
> houses behind high
> walls,and it's contended often with more than 40
> people.
> 6./In former Yugoslavia they refused to use
> opportunity which include scull
> on they own language,and University.Instead they
> invite professors from
> Albania(another country).
> 14./Woman trafficking,drug's,weapon market are legal
> in Kosovo.
> 15./Very well organized(is almost impossible to
> infiltrate in
> their"families"),with long criminal
> experience,indoctrinate with Islamic
> ideology,Shiptars are potential terrorist threat for
> area,and after
> independence for America too.>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for faster
> http://search.yahoo.com
>
>

< You are very naive.>
I don't think so.
I'm well aware for example that the largest single
incident of ethnic cleansing in former Yugoslavia was
carried out with the acquiescence of the US government
against the 150,000 Krajina Serbs.
I'm well aware too that the "humanitarian"
intervention by US/UK under the guise of NATO has
created a disaster in Kossovo, with ethnic cleansing
against both Serbs and also the Gypsy population.
Furthermore I absolutely reject the racist
demonisation of Serbs as bloodthirsty monsters.
The behaviour of the leadership of the Kossovan
Albanians is a salutory lesson in why you should not
hitch your hopes for national liberation to US/UK
imperialism.
Nevertheless the crux is *precisely* that it is
necessary to distinguish between leadership and people
as a whole.
Your post fails to do this & implies that the
characteristics of the Kossovan leadership are shared
and necessarily arise from the people they purport to
represent.
( and this is the most generous reading I can make
-personally I don't think that having large families
and following Islam are signs of degeneracy)
As such it plays straight into the hands of racists
and chauvinists everywhere.
michael



— manik <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi Michael,
> You are very naive.
> MANIK
> —– Original Message —–
> From: "Michael Szpakowski" <[email protected]>
> To: "manik" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 11:28 AM
> Subject: Re: RHIZOME\_RAW: "Protocol"–Excerpt from
> Chapter 6 "Tactial Media"
>
>
> > Hi Manik
> > I marched against the US/UK aggression in former
> > Yugoslavia and I spoke and organised against it
> too.
> > You're undoubtedly right to assert that the oil
> route
> > had more to do with it than any "humanitarian"
> > concern,
> > though I'm not convinced that you need Alex's text
> to
> > support that case.
> > What I'm certain of is that I find it
> disconcerting &
> > depressing to see people whose work I admire use
> the
> > language of the chauvinist and racist in talking
> about
> > an entire people ( see extract below)
> > "they breed too much , they're criminals and they
> have
> > strange ideas" is the refrain of every bar stool
> > racist the world over as well as the official
> > discourse of, say, the protestant majority in the
> Six
> > Counties of Ireland , or the Israeli government,
> or
> > David Blunkett on asylum seekers, or the late
> > unlamented South African Apartheid regime.
> > michael
> >
> >
> > < 4./Albanians from Kosovo so called Shiptar's
> still
> > live in tribal
> > organization.
> > 5./They separatism is based on unusual huge
> > natality(duty of every Shiptar
> > woman is to birth at list 9 to 10
> > children).Including high mortality because
> > of primitive environment average community lie in
> > houses behind high
> > walls,and it's contended often with more than 40
> > people.
> > 6./In former Yugoslavia they refused to use
> > opportunity which include scull
> > on they own language,and University.Instead they
> > invite professors from
> > Albania(another country).
> > 14./Woman trafficking,drug's,weapon market are
> legal
> > in Kosovo.
> > 15./Very well organized(is almost impossible to
> > infiltrate in
> > their"families"),with long criminal
> > experience,indoctrinate with Islamic
> > ideology,Shiptars are potential terrorist threat
> for
> > area,and after
> > independence for America too.>
> >
> > \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for
> faster
> > http://search.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at
http://rhizome.org/info/29.php


\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com

"they breed too much , they're criminals and they have strange ideas"
I think that he's speaking of the average American.

on 3/3/04 5:28, Michael Szpakowski at [email protected] wrote:

> Hi Manik
> I marched against the US/UK aggression in former
> Yugoslavia and I spoke and organised against it too.
> You're undoubtedly right to assert that the oil route
> had more to do with it than any "humanitarian"
> concern,
> though I'm not convinced that you need Alex's text to
> support that case.
> What I'm certain of is that I find it disconcerting &
> depressing to see people whose work I admire use the
> language of the chauvinist and racist in talking about
> an entire people ( see extract below)
> "they breed too much , they're criminals and they have
> strange ideas" is the refrain of every bar stool
> racist the world over as well as the official
> discourse of, say, the protestant majority in the Six
> Counties of Ireland , or the Israeli government, or
> David Blunkett on asylum seekers, or the late
> unlamented South African Apartheid regime.
> michael
>
>
> < 4./Albanians from Kosovo so called Shiptar's still
> live in tribal
> organization.
> 5./They separatism is based on unusual huge
> natality(duty of every Shiptar
> woman is to birth at list 9 to 10
> children).Including high mortality because
> of primitive environment average community lie in
> houses behind high
> walls,and it's contended often with more than 40
> people.
> 6./In former Yugoslavia they refused to use
> opportunity which include scull
> on they own language,and University.Instead they
> invite professors from
> Albania(another country).
> 14./Woman trafficking,drug's,weapon market are legal
> in Kosovo.
> 15./Very well organized(is almost impossible to
> infiltrate in
> their"families"),with long criminal
> experience,indoctrinate with Islamic
> ideology,Shiptars are potential terrorist threat for
> area,and after
> independence for America too.>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster
> http://search.yahoo.com
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

>( and this is the most generous reading I can make
>-personally I don't think that having large families
>and following Islam are signs of degeneracy)
>As such it plays straight into the hands of racists
>and chauvinists everywhere.
>michael
MANIK never mention degeneracy.You don't have to read generous,read correct.
We've never suggest,we deal with well known facts.
You protect overprotected Shiptars.They are protected from all sides:U.S.A
administration ,their well paid congressman in all Parliaments,United
Europe,George Soros lobby,republican government,conservative,laburists and
all democratic governments,all free and open mind media,bunch of
non-government organization,merchant interest,giant intellectuals except
few:Noam Chomsky,Peter Handke,Harold Pinter …
Who will protect individuals without any of those protections?
MANIK







—– Original Message —–
From: "Michael Szpakowski" <[email protected]>
To: "manik" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: "Protocol"–Excerpt from Chapter 6 "Tactial Media"


> < You are very naive.>
> I don't think so.
> I'm well aware for example that the largest single
> incident of ethnic cleansing in former Yugoslavia was
> carried out with the acquiescence of the US government
> against the 150,000 Krajina Serbs.
> I'm well aware too that the "humanitarian"
> intervention by US/UK under the guise of NATO has
> created a disaster in Kossovo, with ethnic cleansing
> against both Serbs and also the Gypsy population.
> Furthermore I absolutely reject the racist
> demonisation of Serbs as bloodthirsty monsters.
> The behaviour of the leadership of the Kossovan
> Albanians is a salutory lesson in why you should not
> hitch your hopes for national liberation to US/UK
> imperialism.
> Nevertheless the crux is *precisely* that it is
> necessary to distinguish between leadership and people
> as a whole.
> Your post fails to do this & implies that the
> characteristics of the Kossovan leadership are shared
> and necessarily arise from the people they purport to
> represent.
> ( and this is the most generous reading I can make
> -personally I don't think that having large families
> and following Islam are signs of degeneracy)
> As such it plays straight into the hands of racists
> and chauvinists everywhere.
> michael
>
>
>
> — manik <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hi Michael,
> > You are very naive.
> > MANIK
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: "Michael Szpakowski" <[email protected]>
> > To: "manik" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 11:28 AM
> > Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: "Protocol"–Excerpt from
> > Chapter 6 "Tactial Media"
> >
> >
> > > Hi Manik
> > > I marched against the US/UK aggression in former
> > > Yugoslavia and I spoke and organised against it
> > too.
> > > You're undoubtedly right to assert that the oil
> > route
> > > had more to do with it than any "humanitarian"
> > > concern,
> > > though I'm not convinced that you need Alex's text
> > to
> > > support that case.
> > > What I'm certain of is that I find it
> > disconcerting &
> > > depressing to see people whose work I admire use
> > the
> > > language of the chauvinist and racist in talking
> > about
> > > an entire people ( see extract below)
> > > "they breed too much , they're criminals and they
> > have
> > > strange ideas" is the refrain of every bar stool
> > > racist the world over as well as the official
> > > discourse of, say, the protestant majority in the
> > Six
> > > Counties of Ireland , or the Israeli government,
> > or
> > > David Blunkett on asylum seekers, or the late
> > > unlamented South African Apartheid regime.
> > > michael
> > >
> > >
> > > < 4./Albanians from Kosovo so called Shiptar's
> > still
> > > live in tribal
> > > organization.
> > > 5./They separatism is based on unusual huge
> > > natality(duty of every Shiptar
> > > woman is to birth at list 9 to 10
> > > children).Including high mortality because
> > > of primitive environment average community lie in
> > > houses behind high
> > > walls,and it's contended often with more than 40
> > > people.
> > > 6./In former Yugoslavia they refused to use
> > > opportunity which include scull
> > > on they own language,and University.Instead they
> > > invite professors from
> > > Albania(another country).
> > > 14./Woman trafficking,drug's,weapon market are
> > legal
> > > in Kosovo.
> > > 15./Very well organized(is almost impossible to
> > > infiltrate in
> > > their"families"),with long criminal
> > > experience,indoctrinate with Islamic
> > > ideology,Shiptars are potential terrorist threat
> > for
> > > area,and after
> > > independence for America too.>
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for
> > faster
> > > http://search.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> > +
> > -> post: [email protected]
> > -> questions: [email protected]
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> > open to non-members
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> > out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at
> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for faster
> http://search.yahoo.com
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

OK - an analogy.
Israel can only continue to exist because of US
subsidy and arms. It has oppressed and continues to
oppress the Palestinians in the most vile way.
Does this mean that anti semitism is no longer a
problem or that we should overlook it on similar
grounds to your argument about Kossovan Albanians?
Does this mean that I don't protest when Jewish graves
are desecrated or someone wants to hold a meeting
denying the Holocaust? Of course not, because I
distinguish (and it essential so to do) between the
political formation Zionism & the Zionist State on the
one hand, and individual Jewish people -they are not
one and the same thing however much the Zionist
apologists would have us believe it to be so.
The Kossovan Albanians are, as you say, in the
unfortunate position of having some deeply unpleasant
"friends" who would use them as a stick to beat the
Serbs and to extend US and UK hegemony.
Does this mean they were not formerly oppressed and
subject to pogrom and ethnic cleansing? Of course not.
Does this mean we should ignore it when someone writes
crass, racist rubbish about them? Of course not.
Its true that the intellectuals you mention have taken
an honourable stand against US/UK imperialism and I
would pretty much share their position, but I
challenge you to find *anything* in their writings or
speeches which writes off the Kossovan Albanians *as a
race* which is what you do .
michael

— manik <[email protected]> wrote:
> >( and this is the most generous reading I can make
> >-personally I don't think that having large
> families
> >and following Islam are signs of degeneracy)
> >As such it plays straight into the hands of racists
> >and chauvinists everywhere.
> >michael
> MANIK never mention degeneracy.You don't have to
> read generous,read correct.
> We've never suggest,we deal with well known facts.
> You protect overprotected Shiptars.They are
> protected from all sides:U.S.A
> administration ,their well paid congressman in all
> Parliaments,United
> Europe,George Soros lobby,republican
> government,conservative,laburists and
> all democratic governments,all free and open mind
> media,bunch of
> non-government organization,merchant interest,giant
> intellectuals except
> few:Noam Chomsky,Peter Handke,Harold Pinter …
> Who will protect individuals without any of those
> protections?
> MANIK
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: "Michael Szpakowski" <[email protected]>
> To: "manik" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 1:57 PM
> Subject: Re: RHIZOME\_RAW: "Protocol"–Excerpt from
> Chapter 6 "Tactial Media"
>
>
> > < You are very naive.>
> > I don't think so.
> > I'm well aware for example that the largest single
> > incident of ethnic cleansing in former Yugoslavia
> was
> > carried out with the acquiescence of the US
> government
> > against the 150,000 Krajina Serbs.
> > I'm well aware too that the "humanitarian"
> > intervention by US/UK under the guise of NATO has
> > created a disaster in Kossovo, with ethnic
> cleansing
> > against both Serbs and also the Gypsy population.
> > Furthermore I absolutely reject the racist
> > demonisation of Serbs as bloodthirsty monsters.
> > The behaviour of the leadership of the Kossovan
> > Albanians is a salutory lesson in why you should
> not
> > hitch your hopes for national liberation to US/UK
> > imperialism.
> > Nevertheless the crux is *precisely* that it is
> > necessary to distinguish between leadership and
> people
> > as a whole.
> > Your post fails to do this & implies that the
> > characteristics of the Kossovan leadership are
> shared
> > and necessarily arise from the people they purport
> to
> > represent.
> > ( and this is the most generous reading I can make
> > -personally I don't think that having large
> families
> > and following Islam are signs of degeneracy)
> > As such it plays straight into the hands of
> racists
> > and chauvinists everywhere.
> > michael
> >
> >
> >
> > — manik <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Hi Michael,
> > > You are very naive.
> > > MANIK
> > > —– Original Message —–
> > > From: "Michael Szpakowski" <[email protected]>
> > > To: "manik" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 11:28 AM
> > > Subject: Re: RHIZOME\_RAW: "Protocol"–Excerpt
> from
> > > Chapter 6 "Tactial Media"
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Manik
> > > > I marched against the US/UK aggression in
> former
> > > > Yugoslavia and I spoke and organised against
> it
> > > too.
> > > > You're undoubtedly right to assert that the
> oil
> > > route
> > > > had more to do with it than any "humanitarian"
> > > > concern,
> > > > though I'm not convinced that you need Alex's
> text
> > > to
> > > > support that case.
> > > > What I'm certain of is that I find it
> > > disconcerting &
> > > > depressing to see people whose work I admire
> use
> > > the
> > > > language of the chauvinist and racist in
> talking
> > > about
> > > > an entire people ( see extract below)
> > > > "they breed too much , they're criminals and
> they
> > > have
> > > > strange ideas" is the refrain of every bar
> stool
> > > > racist the world over as well as the official
> > > > discourse of, say, the protestant majority in
> the
> > > Six
> > > > Counties of Ireland , or the Israeli
> government,
> > > or
> > > > David Blunkett on asylum seekers, or the late
> > > > unlamented South African Apartheid regime.
> > > > michael
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> > > > < 4./Albanians from Kosovo so called
Shiptar's
> > > still
> > > > live in tribal
> > > > organization.
> > > > 5./They separatism is based on unusual huge
> > > > natality(duty of every Shiptar
> > > > woman is to birth at list 9 to 10
> > > > children).Including high mortality because
> > > > of primitive environment average community
> lie in
> > > > houses behind high
> > > > walls,and it's contended often with more than
> 40
> > > > people.
> > > > 6./In former Yugoslavia they refused to use
> > > > opportunity which include scull
> > > > on they own language,and University.Instead
> they
> > > > invite professors from
> > > > Albania(another country).
> > > > 14./Woman trafficking,drug's,weapon market
> are
> > > legal
> > > > in Kosovo.
> > > > 15./Very well organized(is almost impossible
> to
> > > > infiltrate in
> > > > their"families"),with long criminal
> > > > experience,indoctrinate with Islamic
> > > > ideology,Shiptars are potential terrorist
> threat
> > > for
> > > > area,and after
> > > > independence for America too.>

> > > > \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for
> > > faster
> > > > http://search.yahoo.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > +
> > > -> post: [email protected]
> > > -> questions: [email protected]
> > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > > -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> > > open to non-members
> > > +
> > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms
> set
> > > out in the
> > > Membership Agreement available online at
> > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >
> >
> > \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for
> faster
> > http://search.yahoo.com
> > +
> > -> post: [email protected]
> > -> questions: [email protected]
>
=== message truncated ===


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>but I
>challenge you to find *anything* in their writings or
>speeches which writes off the Kossovan Albanians *as a
>race* which is what you do .
>michael
Shame on you!We've never use word race in our texts.
You are to insignificant to chalenge MANIK.
No more free lessons.
MANIK



—– Original Message —–
From: "Michael Szpakowski" <[email protected]>
To: "manik" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: "Protocol"–Excerpt from Chapter 6 "Tactial Media"


> OK - an analogy.
> Israel can only continue to exist because of US
> subsidy and arms. It has oppressed and continues to
> oppress the Palestinians in the most vile way.
> Does this mean that anti semitism is no longer a
> problem or that we should overlook it on similar
> grounds to your argument about Kossovan Albanians?
> Does this mean that I don't protest when Jewish graves
> are desecrated or someone wants to hold a meeting
> denying the Holocaust? Of course not, because I
> distinguish (and it essential so to do) between the
> political formation Zionism & the Zionist State on the
> one hand, and individual Jewish people -they are not
> one and the same thing however much the Zionist
> apologists would have us believe it to be so.
> The Kossovan Albanians are, as you say, in the
> unfortunate position of having some deeply unpleasant
> "friends" who would use them as a stick to beat the
> Serbs and to extend US and UK hegemony.
> Does this mean they were not formerly oppressed and
> subject to pogrom and ethnic cleansing? Of course not.
> Does this mean we should ignore it when someone writes
> crass, racist rubbish about them? Of course not.
> Its true that the intellectuals you mention have taken
> an honourable stand against US/UK imperialism and I
> would pretty much share their position, but I
> challenge you to find *anything* in their writings or
> speeches which writes off the Kossovan Albanians *as a
> race* which is what you do .
> michael
>
> — manik <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >( and this is the most generous reading I can make
> > >-personally I don't think that having large
> > families
> > >and following Islam are signs of degeneracy)
> > >As such it plays straight into the hands of racists
> > >and chauvinists everywhere.
> > >michael
> > MANIK never mention degeneracy.You don't have to
> > read generous,read correct.
> > We've never suggest,we deal with well known facts.
> > You protect overprotected Shiptars.They are
> > protected from all sides:U.S.A
> > administration ,their well paid congressman in all
> > Parliaments,United
> > Europe,George Soros lobby,republican
> > government,conservative,laburists and
> > all democratic governments,all free and open mind
> > media,bunch of
> > non-government organization,merchant interest,giant
> > intellectuals except
> > few:Noam Chomsky,Peter Handke,Harold Pinter …
> > Who will protect individuals without any of those
> > protections?
> > MANIK
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: "Michael Szpakowski" <[email protected]>
> > To: "manik" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 1:57 PM
> > Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: "Protocol"–Excerpt from
> > Chapter 6 "Tactial Media"
> >
> >
> > > < You are very naive.>
> > > I don't think so.
> > > I'm well aware for example that the largest single
> > > incident of ethnic cleansing in former Yugoslavia
> > was
> > > carried out with the acquiescence of the US
> > government
> > > against the 150,000 Krajina Serbs.
> > > I'm well aware too that the "humanitarian"
> > > intervention by US/UK under the guise of NATO has
> > > created a disaster in Kossovo, with ethnic
> > cleansing
> > > against both Serbs and also the Gypsy population.
> > > Furthermore I absolutely reject the racist
> > > demonisation of Serbs as bloodthirsty monsters.
> > > The behaviour of the leadership of the Kossovan
> > > Albanians is a salutory lesson in why you should
> > not
> > > hitch your hopes for national liberation to US/UK
> > > imperialism.
> > > Nevertheless the crux is *precisely* that it is
> > > necessary to distinguish between leadership and
> > people
> > > as a whole.
> > > Your post fails to do this & implies that the
> > > characteristics of the Kossovan leadership are
> > shared
> > > and necessarily arise from the people they purport
> > to
> > > represent.
> > > ( and this is the most generous reading I can make
> > > -personally I don't think that having large
> > families
> > > and following Islam are signs of degeneracy)
> > > As such it plays straight into the hands of
> > racists
> > > and chauvinists everywhere.
> > > michael
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > — manik <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > Hi Michael,
> > > > You are very naive.
> > > > MANIK
> > > > —– Original Message —–
> > > > From: "Michael Szpakowski" <[email protected]>
> > > > To: "manik" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 11:28 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: "Protocol"–Excerpt
> > from
> > > > Chapter 6 "Tactial Media"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Manik
> > > > > I marched against the US/UK aggression in
> > former
> > > > > Yugoslavia and I spoke and organised against
> > it
> > > > too.
> > > > > You're undoubtedly right to assert that the
> > oil
> > > > route
> > > > > had more to do with it than any "humanitarian"
> > > > > concern,
> > > > > though I'm not convinced that you need Alex's
> > text
> > > > to
> > > > > support that case.
> > > > > What I'm certain of is that I find it
> > > > disconcerting &
> > > > > depressing to see people whose work I admire
> > use
> > > > the
> > > > > language of the chauvinist and racist in
> > talking
> > > > about
> > > > > an entire people ( see extract below)
> > > > > "they breed too much , they're criminals and
> > they
> > > > have
> > > > > strange ideas" is the refrain of every bar
> > stool
> > > > > racist the world over as well as the official
> > > > > discourse of, say, the protestant majority in
> > the
> > > > Six
> > > > > Counties of Ireland , or the Israeli
> > government,
> > > > or
> > > > > David Blunkett on asylum seekers, or the late
> > > > > unlamented South African Apartheid regime.
> > > > > michael
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > < 4./Albanians from Kosovo so called
> Shiptar's
> > > > still
> > > > > live in tribal
> > > > > organization.
> > > > > 5./They separatism is based on unusual huge
> > > > > natality(duty of every Shiptar
> > > > > woman is to birth at list 9 to 10
> > > > > children).Including high mortality because
> > > > > of primitive environment average community
> > lie in
> > > > > houses behind high
> > > > > walls,and it's contended often with more than
> > 40
> > > > > people.
> > > > > 6./In former Yugoslavia they refused to use
> > > > > opportunity which include scull
> > > > > on they own language,and University.Instead
> > they
> > > > > invite professors from
> > > > > Albania(another country).
> > > > > 14./Woman trafficking,drug's,weapon market
> > are
> > > > legal
> > > > > in Kosovo.
> > > > > 15./Very well organized(is almost impossible
> > to
> > > > > infiltrate in
> > > > > their"families"),with long criminal
> > > > > experience,indoctrinate with Islamic
> > > > > ideology,Shiptars are potential terrorist
> > threat
> > > > for
> > > > > area,and after
> > > > > independence for America too.>
>
> > > > > __________________________________
> > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > > Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for
> > > > faster
> > > > > http://search.yahoo.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > +
> > > > -> post: [email protected]
> > > > -> questions: [email protected]
> > > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > > > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > > > -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> > > > open to non-members
> > > > +
> > > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms
> > set
> > > > out in the
> > > > Membership Agreement available online at
> > > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for
> > faster
> > > http://search.yahoo.com
> > > +
> > > -> post: [email protected]
> > > -> questions: [email protected]
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for faster
> http://search.yahoo.com
>

< You are to insignificant to chalenge MANIK.
No more free lessons.>
OK.


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