strict chapters, spagetti poedry

> OOP as in novel-length projects; a methodology for making a code project
> manageable when it gets big. like chapters and paragraphs and so on,

I don't think you're analogy is entirely correct. OOP is used to cut a
project into "objects" (thus the name), which can then be combined in
different ways, be inherited, and all that cal. I would say that this is
very similar to any sort of note-taking during the novel writing phase.

For instance, I have index card for the "Bad Guys", which are like a,b,c.
One of these bad guys is named, "Bill", (who has his own index card, in my
"Bad Guys pile) he has characteristic x,y,z, he's just like the bad guys,
but instead of a, he shows, n characteristic - which catalysts my entire
story. Bill knows, "Jane", which is one of the "Good guys"… I don't want
to stretch this too far… But Chapters are much like separate files in a
program, if anything, although there most likely isn't a "direction" in the
files of a program.

You'd be better comparing how OOP is to procedural programming as
traditional writing is to nonlinear writing.

> how do you update the novel form?

Wasn't the novel, "novel" once?

> it wouldn't be what it is without its history, but the very history prevents
> it from being recast into what you want to create next.

You could probably say the same thing about painting and you'd probably be
wrong.

This:

http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/ingres/ingres.source.jpg

And

this:

http://artistsregister.com/artists/CO1419

Are basically the same medium, used completely differently. I believe the
second has a lineage to the first… if just the materials itself, but the
"recast" seems fairly complete.

I see your somewhat point, but history also strengthens.

> "Poetry can no longer be remade." (the lettrist Isou from the forties)

Any Kerouac book published in the 50's. On The Road was seriously spinning
the heads of the mainstream, I would say that spontaneous prose remade the
novel form, if not the poetic form.

> People will go on remaking poetry like they continue to paint watercolors.
> It is a pleasant activity of the garden variety that harms no one. Let a
> thousand dandelions bloom.

I've seen some pretty interesting things done with watercolors.

Mix watercolors with water (obviously) and pour them into ice cube
containers. Put them in the freezer until frozen.

Stretch a canvas.

Crack watercolor ice cubes onto the canvas; wait till they melt and make
pretty designs. There you go: a non-determinant painting, given a set of
rules that can be adjusted (for example, temp of the room), just like any
little Flash animation toy.

You can also mix watercolors with cheapo acrylics and get better acrylics -
it's usually cheaper than using expensive acrylics.


So what's your point? No more interesting poems? Poop.

If you say nothing is left to be done with something, something new will be
done with it; just like your weeds.

Justin Simoni
–
Playing around with life TWICE as hard, so you don't have to.

http://skazat.com - meta sketchbook
http://prolix.nu - art for your computer
http://justinsimoni.com - the portfolio of playing.



Each one of us, in his timidity, has a limit beyond which he is outraged. It
is inevitable that he who by concentrated application has extended this
limit for himself, should arouse the resentment of those who have accepted
conventions which, since accepted by all, require no initiative of
application. And this resentment generally takes the form of meaningless
laughter or of criticism, if not persecution. But this apparent violation is
preferable to the monstrous habits condoned by etiquette and estheticism.

- MAN RAY







On 12/28/03 10:26 PM, "Jim Andrews" <[email protected]> wrote:

> writing a machine
>
> "a poem is a machine made out of words."
> william carlos williams
>
> spagetti poedry.
>
> handler/method paragraphs.
>
> "Remarkably, sequence, selection, and iteration are sufficient for
> constructing any algorithm. If it is possible to construct an algorithm for
> describing a particular process, then the algorithm can be constructed from
> sequence, selection, and iteration alone."
>
> OOP as in novel-length projects; a methodology for making a code project
> manageable when it gets big. like chapters and paragraphs and so on, only um
> strict. strict chapters. the 'do me strict' chapter.
>
> but OOP is also for when it needs constant modification. like a methodology
> for legislative systems? or an ongoing art form that is capable of
> describing our experience. how do you update the novel form? people do it
> all the time. but there comes a time when you just can't remake it anymore.
> it wouldn't be what it is without its history, but the very history prevents
> it from being recast into what you want to create next.
>
> "Poetry can no longer be remade." (the lettrist Isou from the forties)
>
> People will go on remaking poetry like they continue to paint watercolors.
> It is a pleasant activity of the garden variety that harms no one. Let a
> thousand dandelions bloom.
>
> People are afraid of what they don't understand.
>
> Art is, in part, what is made of unknowing.
>
> fest of the bestive to all rhizomers!
>
> ja
>
>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

There will be a few. There is so much talk. So many words. So many claims to
knowledge and poetry like it's up for grabs to salespeople in a popularity
contest. Not much you'd put your life on. Not often much at stake. But there
will be a few for whom it is all their lives, lifers. And it could be like
Kafka for them. Burn it, he said, much of it unpublished. But, no, I don't
fear for poetry. I said it can't be remade. Whatever it takes to put your
life on it, Justin. Not like Russian Roulette, but over the long haul.
They'd hardly recognize it.

ja

On 29 Dec 2003, at 07:31, Justin Simoni wrote:

>> OOP as in novel-length projects; a methodology for making a code
>> project
>> manageable when it gets big. like chapters and paragraphs and so on,
>
> I don't think you're analogy is entirely correct. OOP is used to cut a
> project into "objects" (thus the name), which can then be combined in
> different ways, be inherited, and all that cal. I would say that this
> is
> very similar to any sort of note-taking during the novel writing phase.

Objects are also called "actors" in some methodologies and views. You
can model conventional narrative very simply as an OO system. Indeed
modern computer games are based on this assumption.

> For instance, I have index card for the "Bad Guys", which are like
> a,b,c.

This is very much like the CRC Cards used in OOP.

> You'd be better comparing how OOP is to procedural programming as
> traditional writing is to nonlinear writing.

There's work done on computational narrative, including a Prolog
grammar for simple narrative. There's even been conferences, but I
don't have the URLs to hand.
Propp's "Morphology Of The Folktale" is an unintentional classic in
computational narrative.

Bear in mind that procedural/functional/logical programming can all
write the same programs, they just supposedly make tackling some
classes of problems more or less easy. It's *NOT* like translating a
novel from French to English, there are no untranslatable concepts
lurking in the text.

That said, a functional/procedural/object plot structure or descriptive
technique could be interesting, at least as a thought experiment.

>> how do you update the novel form?
>
> Wasn't the novel, "novel" once?

I'd be more interested in updating the novel content. Form will follow
(see the 1960s "New Wave" of SF, especially Michael Moorcock's "Jerry
Cornelius" short stories).

>> it wouldn't be what it is without its history, but the very history
>> prevents
>> it from being recast into what you want to create next.
>
> You could probably say the same thing about painting and you'd
> probably be
> wrong.

Indeed. Ignorance is bliss for the producer but not the consumer.
Uninformed production tends to provincialism. Refusal requires that you
know what you're refusing, and rebellion requires that you know what
you're rebelling against. Etc.

> Crack watercolor ice cubes onto the canvas; wait till they melt and
> make
> pretty designs. There you go: a non-determinant painting, given a set
> of
> rules that can be adjusted (for example, temp of the room), just like
> any
> little Flash animation toy.

Cool!

> So what's your point? No more interesting poems? Poop.
> If you say nothing is left to be done with something, something new
> will be
> done with it; just like your weeds.

The idea that everything has been done has been done. It requires an
extraordinary presumption of ultimacy on the part of one's taste. The
idea of the exhaustion of <insert form here> is a reaction to a
specific set of post-Second-World-War conditions that can only now hold
as affectation or unconsidered dogma.

But it fills essays, as it has for decades.

- Rob.

> Crack watercolor ice cubes onto the canvas; wait till they melt and
> make
> pretty designs. There you go: a non-determinant painting, given a set
> of
> rules that can be adjusted (for example, temp of the room), just like
> any
> little Flash animation toy.

Cool!

There's one more recipes for watercolor;don't eat two days,drink 4 liter
water a day,eat different acrylic color.
Pies on paper
Shit on canvas.
Dear Justin,after that you(mmmaybe?!?) could be sort of creative person.
What do you think?Your work are very laud(as your words).Unfortunately for
you.
MANIK


—– Original Message —–
From: "Rob Myers" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: strict chapters, spagetti poedry


> On 29 Dec 2003, at 07:31, Justin Simoni wrote:
>
> >> OOP as in novel-length projects; a methodology for making a code
> >> project
> >> manageable when it gets big. like chapters and paragraphs and so on,
> >
> > I don't think you're analogy is entirely correct. OOP is used to cut a
> > project into "objects" (thus the name), which can then be combined in
> > different ways, be inherited, and all that cal. I would say that this
> > is
> > very similar to any sort of note-taking during the novel writing phase.
>
> Objects are also called "actors" in some methodologies and views. You
> can model conventional narrative very simply as an OO system. Indeed
> modern computer games are based on this assumption.
>
> > For instance, I have index card for the "Bad Guys", which are like
> > a,b,c.
>
> This is very much like the CRC Cards used in OOP.
>
> > You'd be better comparing how OOP is to procedural programming as
> > traditional writing is to nonlinear writing.
>
> There's work done on computational narrative, including a Prolog
> grammar for simple narrative. There's even been conferences, but I
> don't have the URLs to hand.
> Propp's "Morphology Of The Folktale" is an unintentional classic in
> computational narrative.
>
> Bear in mind that procedural/functional/logical programming can all
> write the same programs, they just supposedly make tackling some
> classes of problems more or less easy. It's *NOT* like translating a
> novel from French to English, there are no untranslatable concepts
> lurking in the text.
>
> That said, a functional/procedural/object plot structure or descriptive
> technique could be interesting, at least as a thought experiment.
>
> >> how do you update the novel form?
> >
> > Wasn't the novel, "novel" once?
>
> I'd be more interested in updating the novel content. Form will follow
> (see the 1960s "New Wave" of SF, especially Michael Moorcock's "Jerry
> Cornelius" short stories).
>
> >> it wouldn't be what it is without its history, but the very history
> >> prevents
> >> it from being recast into what you want to create next.
> >
> > You could probably say the same thing about painting and you'd
> > probably be
> > wrong.
>
> Indeed. Ignorance is bliss for the producer but not the consumer.
> Uninformed production tends to provincialism. Refusal requires that you
> know what you're refusing, and rebellion requires that you know what
> you're rebelling against. Etc.
>
> > Crack watercolor ice cubes onto the canvas; wait till they melt and
> > make
> > pretty designs. There you go: a non-determinant painting, given a set
> > of
> > rules that can be adjusted (for example, temp of the room), just like
> > any
> > little Flash animation toy.
>
> Cool!
>
> > So what's your point? No more interesting poems? Poop.
> > If you say nothing is left to be done with something, something new
> > will be
> > done with it; just like your weeds.
>
> The idea that everything has been done has been done. It requires an
> extraordinary presumption of ultimacy on the part of one's taste. The
> idea of the exhaustion of <insert form here> is a reaction to a
> specific set of post-Second-World-War conditions that can only now hold
> as affectation or unconsidered dogma.
>
> But it fills essays, as it has for decades.
>
> - Rob.
>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>

On 30 Dec 2003, at 19:28, manik wrote:

> What do you think?

I don't know, I couldn't work out what you were trying to say or who
you were trying to say it to.

- Rob.

————–Boundary-00=_YA7QLVC0000000000000
Content-Type: Text/Plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

It's all for Justin.I was in mass.Sory Rob.
MANIK

——-Original Message——-

From: manik
Date: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 21:30:24
To: Rob Myers; [email protected]
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: strict chapters, spagetti poedry

> Crack watercolor ice cubes onto the canvas; wait till they melt and
> make
> pretty designs. There you go: a non-determinant painting, given a set
> of
> rules that can be adjusted (for example, temp of the room), just like
> any
> little Flash animation toy.

Cool!

There's one more recipes for watercolor;don't eat two days,drink 4 liter
water a day,eat different acrylic color.
Pies on paper
Shit on canvas.
Dear Justin,after that you(mmmaybe?!?) could be sort of creative person.
What do you think?Your work are very laud(as your words).Unfortunately for=

you.
MANIK


—– Original Message —–
From: "Rob Myers" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: strict chapters, spagetti poedry


> On 29 Dec 2003, at 07:31, Justin Simoni wrote:
>
> >> OOP as in novel-length projects; a methodology for making a code
> >> project
> >> manageable when it gets big. like chapters and paragraphs and so on,=

> >
> > I don't think you're analogy is entirely correct. OOP is used to cut a=

> > project into "objects" (thus the name), which can then be combined in=

> > different ways, be inherited, and all that cal. I would say that this=

> > is
> > very similar to any sort of note-taking during the novel writing phase.=

>
> Objects are also called "actors" in some methodologies and views. You
> can model conventional narrative very simply as an OO system. Indeed
> modern computer games are based on this assumption.
>
> > For instance, I have index card for the "Bad Guys", which are like
> > a,b,c.
>
> This is very much like the CRC Cards used in OOP.
>
> > You'd be better comparing how OOP is to procedural programming as
> > traditional writing is to nonlinear writing.
>
> There's work done on computational narrative, including a Prolog
> grammar for simple narrative. There's even been conferences, but I
> don't have the URLs to hand.
> Propp's "Morphology Of The Folktale" is an unintentional classic in
> computational narrative.
>
> Bear in mind that procedural/functional/logical programming can all
> write the same programs, they just supposedly make tackling some
> classes of problems more or less easy. It's *NOT* like translating a
> novel from French to English, there are no untranslatable concepts
> lurking in the text.
>
> That said, a functional/procedural/object plot structure or descriptive=

> technique could be interesting, at least as a thought experiment.
>
> >> how do you update the novel form?
> >
> > Wasn't the novel, "novel" once?
>
> I'd be more interested in updating the novel content. Form will follow
> (see the 1960s "New Wave" of SF, especially Michael Moorcock's "Jerry
> Cornelius" short stories).
>
> >> it wouldn't be what it is without its history, but the very history
> >> prevents
> >> it from being recast into what you want to create next.
> >
> > You could probably say the same thing about painting and you'd
> > probably be
> > wrong.
>
> Indeed. Ignorance is bliss for the producer but not the consumer.
> Uninformed production tends to provincialism. Refusal requires that you=

> know what you're refusing, and rebellion requires that you know what
> you're rebelling against. Etc.
>
> > Crack watercolor ice cubes onto the canvas; wait till they melt and
> > make
> > pretty designs. There you go: a non-determinant painting, given a set=

> > of
> > rules that can be adjusted (for example, temp of the room), just like=

> > any
> > little Flash animation toy.
>
> Cool!
>
> > So what's your point? No more interesting poems? Poop.
> > If you say nothing is left to be done with something, something new
> > will be
> > done with it; just like your weeds.
>
> The idea that everything has been done has been done. It requires an
> extraordinary presumption of ultimacy on the part of one's taste. The
> idea of the exhaustion of <insert form here> is a reaction to a
> specific set of post-Second-World-War conditions that can only now hold=

> as affectation or unconsidered dogma.
>
> But it fills essays, as it has for decades.
>
> - Rob.
>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz=

> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php=

>
>

+
-> post: [email protected]
-> questions: [email protected]
-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
-> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
+
Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php

.
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>
<DIV>It's all for Justin.I was in mass.Sory Rob.</DIV>
<DIV>MANIK</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV id=IncrediOriginalMessage><I>——-Original Message——-</I=
></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV id=receivestrings>
<DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>From:</B></I> <A
href="mailto:[email protected]">manik</A></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>Date:</B></I> Tuesday,=
December
30, 2003 21:30:24</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>To:</B></I> <A
href="mailto:[email protected]">Rob Myers</A>; <A
href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>Subject:</B></I> Re:=

RHIZOME_RAW: strict chapters, spagetti poedry</DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>&gt; Crack watercolor ice cubes onto the canvas; wai=
t
till they melt and<BR>&gt; make<BR>&gt; pretty designs. There you go:=
a
non-determinant painting, given a set<BR>&gt; of<BR>&gt; rules that c=
an be
adjusted (for example, temp of the room), just like<BR>&gt; any<BR>&g=
t;
little Flash animation toy.<BR><BR>Cool!<BR><BR>There's one more reci=
pes
for watercolor;don't eat two days,drink 4 liter<BR>water a day,eat
different acrylic color.<BR>Pies on paper<BR>Shit on canvas.<BR>Dear=

Justin,after that you(mmmaybe?!?) could be sort of creative
person.<BR>What do you think?Your work are very laud(as your
words).Unfortunately for<BR>you.<BR>MANIK<BR><BR><BR>—– Original=

Message —–<BR>From: "Rob Myers" &lt;<A
href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A>&gt;<BR>To: &lt;=
<A
href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A>&gt;<BR>Sent: Mo=
nday,
December 29, 2003 9:35 PM<BR>Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: strict chapter=
s,
spagetti poedry<BR><BR><BR>&gt; On 29 Dec 2003, at 07:31, Justin Simo=
ni
wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; OOP as in novel-length projects; a
methodology for making a code<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; project<BR>&gt; &gt;&g=
t;
manageable when it gets big. like chapters and paragraphs and so
on,<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; I don't think you're analogy is entirel=
y
correct. OOP is used to cut a<BR>&gt; &gt; project into "objects" (th=
us
the name), which can then be combined in<BR>&gt; &gt; different ways,=
be
inherited, and all that cal. I would say that this<BR>&gt; &gt; is<BR=
>&gt;
&gt; very similar to any sort of note-taking during the novel writing=

phase.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Objects are also called "actors" in some
methodologies and views. You<BR>&gt; can model conventional narrative=
very
simply as an OO system. Indeed<BR>&gt; modern computer games are base=
d on
this assumption.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; For instance, I have index card=
for
the "Bad Guys", which are like<BR>&gt; &gt; a,b,c.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Th=
is is
very much like the CRC Cards used in OOP.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; You'd =
be
better comparing how OOP is to procedural programming as<BR>&gt; &gt;=

traditional writing is to nonlinear writing.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; There's =
work
done on computational narrative, including a Prolog<BR>&gt; grammar f=
or
simple narrative. There's even been conferences, but I<BR>&gt; don't =
have
the URLs to hand.<BR>&gt; Propp's "Morphology Of The Folktale" is an=

unintentional classic in<BR>&gt; computational narrative.<BR>&gt;<BR>=
&gt;
Bear in mind that procedural/functional/logical programming can
all<BR>&gt; write the same programs, they just supposedly make tackli=
ng
some<BR>&gt; classes of problems more or less easy. It's *NOT* like=

translating a<BR>&gt; novel from French to English, there are no
untranslatable concepts<BR>&gt; lurking in the text.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; =
That
said, a functional/procedural/object plot structure or descriptive<BR=
>&gt;
technique could be interesting, at least as a thought
experiment.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; how do you update the novel
form?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Wasn't the novel, "novel"
once?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I'd be more interested in updating the novel
content. Form will follow<BR>&gt; (see the 1960s "New Wave" of SF,
especially Michael Moorcock's "Jerry<BR>&gt; Cornelius" short
stories).<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; it wouldn't be what it is without =
its
history, but the very history<BR>&gt; &gt;&gt; prevents<BR>&gt; &gt;&=
gt;
it from being recast into what you want to create next.<BR>&gt;
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; You could probably say the same thing about paintin=
g and
you'd<BR>&gt; &gt; probably be<BR>&gt; &gt; wrong.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; In=
deed.
Ignorance is bliss for the producer but not the consumer.<BR>&gt;
Uninformed production tends to provincialism. Refusal requires that=

you<BR>&gt; know what you're refusing, and rebellion requires that yo=
u
know what<BR>&gt; you're rebelling against. Etc.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;=

Crack watercolor ice cubes onto the canvas; wait till they melt
and<BR>&gt; &gt; make<BR>&gt; &gt; pretty designs. There you go: a
non-determinant painting, given a set<BR>&gt; &gt; of<BR>&gt; &gt; ru=
les
that can be adjusted (for example, temp of the room), just like<BR>&g=
t;
&gt; any<BR>&gt; &gt; little Flash animation toy.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;
Cool!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; So what's your point? No more interesting=

poems? Poop.<BR>&gt; &gt; If you say nothing is left to be done with=

something, something new<BR>&gt; &gt; will be<BR>&gt; &gt; done with =
it;
just like your weeds.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; The idea that everything has be=
en
done has been done. It requires an<BR>&gt; extraordinary presumption =
of
ultimacy on the part of one's taste. The<BR>&gt; idea of the exhausti=
on of
&lt;insert form here&gt; is a reaction to a<BR>&gt; specific set of=

post-Second-World-War conditions that can only now hold<BR>&gt; as
affectation or unconsidered dogma.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; But it fills essay=
s, as
it has for decades.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; - Rob.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; +<BR>&gt; =
-&gt;
post: <A href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A><BR>&gt=
; -&gt;
questions: <A href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A><B=
R>&gt;
-&gt; subscribe/unsubscribe: <A
href="http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz">http://rhizome=
.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz</A><BR>&gt;
-&gt; give: <A
href="http://rhizome.org/support">http://rhizome.org/support</A><BR=
>&gt;
-&gt; visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to
non-members<BR>&gt; +<BR>&gt; Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to t=
he
terms set out in the<BR>&gt; Membership Agreement available online at=
<A
href="http://rhizome.org/info/29.php">http://rhizome.org/info/29.ph=
p</A><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>+<BR>-&gt;
post: <A href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A><BR>-&g=
t;
questions: <A href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A><B=
R>-&gt;
subscribe/unsubscribe: <A
href="http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz">http://rhizome=
.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz</A><BR>-&gt;
give: <A
href="http://rhizome.org/support">http://rhizome.org/support</A><BR=
>-&gt;
visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to
non-members<BR>+<BR>Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms s=
et
out in the<BR>Membership Agreement available online at <A
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————–Boundary-00=_YA7QLVC0000000000000–

> There's one more recipes for watercolor

To let you know, the first one wasn't mine; it's from a friend named Harry
S. Walters. Interesting guy. Interesting painting.

> Your work are very laud(as your words).Unfortunately for
> you.

.. Not really following you, which work? I think it's OK to like things. My
g/f thinks I'm too critical.

> Unfortunately for
> you.

Again, not following you, but list: do all conversations on this list end in
name calling? Is that why there really aren't any threads? There seems to be
some intelligent people on this list, and a few egos. Is there a better list
for this type of discussion?

Critical examination is fine, but talk is cheap without some back up.

Cheers,


Justin Simoni | http://justinsimoni.com | 720 436 7701

- Starving artist by day,
- Poetic philosopher by night
- Computer programmer in the wee hours.








On 12/30/03 12:28 PM, "manik" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>> Crack watercolor ice cubes onto the canvas; wait till they melt and
>> make
>> pretty designs. There you go: a non-determinant painting, given a set
>> of
>> rules that can be adjusted (for example, temp of the room), just like
>> any
>> little Flash animation toy.
>
> Cool!
>
> There's one more recipes for watercolor;don't eat two days,drink 4 liter
> water a day,eat different acrylic color.
> Pies on paper
> Shit on canvas.
> Dear Justin,after that you(mmmaybe?!?) could be sort of creative person.
> What do you think?Your work are very laud(as your words).Unfortunately for
> you.
> MANIK
>
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: "Rob Myers" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 9:35 PM
> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: strict chapters, spagetti poedry
>
>
>> On 29 Dec 2003, at 07:31, Justin Simoni wrote:
>>
>>>> OOP as in novel-length projects; a methodology for making a code
>>>> project
>>>> manageable when it gets big. like chapters and paragraphs and so on,
>>>
>>> I don't think you're analogy is entirely correct. OOP is used to cut a
>>> project into "objects" (thus the name), which can then be combined in
>>> different ways, be inherited, and all that cal. I would say that this
>>> is
>>> very similar to any sort of note-taking during the novel writing phase.
>>
>> Objects are also called "actors" in some methodologies and views. You
>> can model conventional narrative very simply as an OO system. Indeed
>> modern computer games are based on this assumption.
>>
>>> For instance, I have index card for the "Bad Guys", which are like
>>> a,b,c.
>>
>> This is very much like the CRC Cards used in OOP.
>>
>>> You'd be better comparing how OOP is to procedural programming as
>>> traditional writing is to nonlinear writing.
>>
>> There's work done on computational narrative, including a Prolog
>> grammar for simple narrative. There's even been conferences, but I
>> don't have the URLs to hand.
>> Propp's "Morphology Of The Folktale" is an unintentional classic in
>> computational narrative.
>>
>> Bear in mind that procedural/functional/logical programming can all
>> write the same programs, they just supposedly make tackling some
>> classes of problems more or less easy. It's *NOT* like translating a
>> novel from French to English, there are no untranslatable concepts
>> lurking in the text.
>>
>> That said, a functional/procedural/object plot structure or descriptive
>> technique could be interesting, at least as a thought experiment.
>>
>>>> how do you update the novel form?
>>>
>>> Wasn't the novel, "novel" once?
>>
>> I'd be more interested in updating the novel content. Form will follow
>> (see the 1960s "New Wave" of SF, especially Michael Moorcock's "Jerry
>> Cornelius" short stories).
>>
>>>> it wouldn't be what it is without its history, but the very history
>>>> prevents
>>>> it from being recast into what you want to create next.
>>>
>>> You could probably say the same thing about painting and you'd
>>> probably be
>>> wrong.
>>
>> Indeed. Ignorance is bliss for the producer but not the consumer.
>> Uninformed production tends to provincialism. Refusal requires that you
>> know what you're refusing, and rebellion requires that you know what
>> you're rebelling against. Etc.
>>
>>> Crack watercolor ice cubes onto the canvas; wait till they melt and
>>> make
>>> pretty designs. There you go: a non-determinant painting, given a set
>>> of
>>> rules that can be adjusted (for example, temp of the room), just like
>>> any
>>> little Flash animation toy.
>>
>> Cool!
>>
>>> So what's your point? No more interesting poems? Poop.
>>> If you say nothing is left to be done with something, something new
>>> will be
>>> done with it; just like your weeds.
>>
>> The idea that everything has been done has been done. It requires an
>> extraordinary presumption of ultimacy on the part of one's taste. The
>> idea of the exhaustion of <insert form here> is a reaction to a
>> specific set of post-Second-World-War conditions that can only now hold
>> as affectation or unconsidered dogma.
>>
>> But it fills essays, as it has for decades.
>>
>> - Rob.
>>
>> +
>> -> post: [email protected]
>> -> questions: [email protected]
>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
>> +
>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>>
>>
>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

Happy new year.Of course you are right.
MANIK
—– Original Message —–
From: "Justin Simoni" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: "manik" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: strict chapters, spagetti poedry


> > There's one more recipes for watercolor
>
> To let you know, the first one wasn't mine; it's from a friend named Harry
> S. Walters. Interesting guy. Interesting painting.
>
> > Your work are very laud(as your words).Unfortunately for
> > you.
>
> .. Not really following you, which work? I think it's OK to like things.
My
> g/f thinks I'm too critical.
>
> > Unfortunately for
> > you.
>
> Again, not following you, but list: do all conversations on this list end
in
> name calling? Is that why there really aren't any threads? There seems to
be
> some intelligent people on this list, and a few egos. Is there a better
list
> for this type of discussion?
>
> Critical examination is fine, but talk is cheap without some back up.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Justin Simoni | http://justinsimoni.com | 720 436 7701
>
> - Starving artist by day,
> - Poetic philosopher by night
> - Computer programmer in the wee hours.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12/30/03 12:28 PM, "manik" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >> Crack watercolor ice cubes onto the canvas; wait till they melt and
> >> make
> >> pretty designs. There you go: a non-determinant painting, given a set
> >> of
> >> rules that can be adjusted (for example, temp of the room), just like
> >> any
> >> little Flash animation toy.
> >
> > Cool!
> >
> > There's one more recipes for watercolor;don't eat two days,drink 4 liter
> > water a day,eat different acrylic color.
> > Pies on paper
> > Shit on canvas.
> > Dear Justin,after that you(mmmaybe?!?) could be sort of creative person.
> > What do you think?Your work are very laud(as your words).Unfortunately
for
> > you.
> > MANIK
> >
> >
> > —– Original Message —–
> > From: "Rob Myers" <[email protected]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 9:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: strict chapters, spagetti poedry
> >
> >
> >> On 29 Dec 2003, at 07:31, Justin Simoni wrote:
> >>
> >>>> OOP as in novel-length projects; a methodology for making a code
> >>>> project
> >>>> manageable when it gets big. like chapters and paragraphs and so on,
> >>>
> >>> I don't think you're analogy is entirely correct. OOP is used to cut a
> >>> project into "objects" (thus the name), which can then be combined in
> >>> different ways, be inherited, and all that cal. I would say that this
> >>> is
> >>> very similar to any sort of note-taking during the novel writing
phase.
> >>
> >> Objects are also called "actors" in some methodologies and views. You
> >> can model conventional narrative very simply as an OO system. Indeed
> >> modern computer games are based on this assumption.
> >>
> >>> For instance, I have index card for the "Bad Guys", which are like
> >>> a,b,c.
> >>
> >> This is very much like the CRC Cards used in OOP.
> >>
> >>> You'd be better comparing how OOP is to procedural programming as
> >>> traditional writing is to nonlinear writing.
> >>
> >> There's work done on computational narrative, including a Prolog
> >> grammar for simple narrative. There's even been conferences, but I
> >> don't have the URLs to hand.
> >> Propp's "Morphology Of The Folktale" is an unintentional classic in
> >> computational narrative.
> >>
> >> Bear in mind that procedural/functional/logical programming can all
> >> write the same programs, they just supposedly make tackling some
> >> classes of problems more or less easy. It's *NOT* like translating a
> >> novel from French to English, there are no untranslatable concepts
> >> lurking in the text.
> >>
> >> That said, a functional/procedural/object plot structure or descriptive
> >> technique could be interesting, at least as a thought experiment.
> >>
> >>>> how do you update the novel form?
> >>>
> >>> Wasn't the novel, "novel" once?
> >>
> >> I'd be more interested in updating the novel content. Form will follow
> >> (see the 1960s "New Wave" of SF, especially Michael Moorcock's "Jerry
> >> Cornelius" short stories).
> >>
> >>>> it wouldn't be what it is without its history, but the very history
> >>>> prevents
> >>>> it from being recast into what you want to create next.
> >>>
> >>> You could probably say the same thing about painting and you'd
> >>> probably be
> >>> wrong.
> >>
> >> Indeed. Ignorance is bliss for the producer but not the consumer.
> >> Uninformed production tends to provincialism. Refusal requires that you
> >> know what you're refusing, and rebellion requires that you know what
> >> you're rebelling against. Etc.
> >>
> >>> Crack watercolor ice cubes onto the canvas; wait till they melt and
> >>> make
> >>> pretty designs. There you go: a non-determinant painting, given a set
> >>> of
> >>> rules that can be adjusted (for example, temp of the room), just like
> >>> any
> >>> little Flash animation toy.
> >>
> >> Cool!
> >>
> >>> So what's your point? No more interesting poems? Poop.
> >>> If you say nothing is left to be done with something, something new
> >>> will be
> >>> done with it; just like your weeds.
> >>
> >> The idea that everything has been done has been done. It requires an
> >> extraordinary presumption of ultimacy on the part of one's taste. The
> >> idea of the exhaustion of <insert form here> is a reaction to a
> >> specific set of post-Second-World-War conditions that can only now hold
> >> as affectation or unconsidered dogma.
> >>
> >> But it fills essays, as it has for decades.
> >>
> >> - Rob.
> >>
> >> +
> >> -> post: [email protected]
> >> -> questions: [email protected]
> >> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> >> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> >> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> >> +
> >> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> >> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >>
> >>
> >
> > +
> > -> post: [email protected]
> > -> questions: [email protected]
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >
>
>