PS

Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: PS


> .. no that's not quite true.. I know some artists who
> are interested in games..but that feels at one
> remove..are they *really* "as much a part of adult
> life as TV"??

Well, I am an adult and I know a lot of adults and I don't really come
across any games related discussion. e.g. no-one says to me 'did you get
that new game …' or 'I was playing Eggrace last night, did you do that
too' or whatever, the sort of thing that they say about TV stuff.
I mean, games are of course interesting and throw up all sorts of issues,
but then so do most other commercial/entertainment arenas.
I think there is a laziness amoung curators that leads them to cotton onto
themes (or is this memes) that are doing the rounds.
The Rhizome commissions cover the same ground: 'Artists are invited to
submit proposals for works of art that focus on the theme of games.'
Anyway, I'm sure we'll see a lot more of this stuff in the next few years.
Cheers,
Ivan

> — defne ayas <[email protected]> wrote:
> > JAN 29, 2004 Digital Culture Evening 6:30 - 8PM
> >
> > New York-based artist Cory Arcangel will host a
> > games programming workshop as part of the Killer
> > Instinct exhibition.
> >
> > "Killer Instinct"
> > December 12, 2003 - February 1, 2004
> >
> > Once considered a pastime for kids, games are now a
> > full-fledged part of adult life, situated as a
> > shared public culture not unlike television. Games
> > come off the screen and to life in this exhibition
> > including sculpture, video, painting, and, of
> > course, Ataris and computers. Besides experimental
> > hacks of commercial games, Killer Instinct features
> > artists who use game hardware and software for
> > social commentary as well as in the development of
> > musical and filmic projects. Player, viewer, artist,
> > curator or critic – the cross-pollination of gaming
> > and art spheres allows visitors to assume several of
> > these roles during the course of the exhibition.
> > Killer Instinct is organized by Anne Barlow and
> > Rachel Greene.

My original response to the announcement of the commission's theme was dismissive and trite. On reflection I think I pitched it just about right. I see the games theme as equally dismissive ….
I just don't think that a theme which reduces any meaningful response to it to be banal sub industry.. games (sounds like non competitive sports or digital parlour games to me), or minor subversions and discretions… dull dull dull!
Perhaps all that is left are responses to consumption, cultural dallying and the only tools I have left are puns and wobbly metaphors.
Shoot me now, again and again and…

No pun nintendoed





Ivan Pope wrote:

>
> Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: PS
>
>
> > .. no that's not quite true.. I know some artists who
> > are interested in games..but that feels at one
> > remove..are they *really* "as much a part of adult
> > life as TV"??
>
> Well, I am an adult and I know a lot of adults and I don't really come
> across any games related discussion. e.g. no-one says to me 'did you
> get
> that new game …' or 'I was playing Eggrace last night, did you do
> that
> too' or whatever, the sort of thing that they say about TV stuff.
> I mean, games are of course interesting and throw up all sorts of
> issues,
> but then so do most other commercial/entertainment arenas.
> I think there is a laziness amoung curators that leads them to cotton
> onto
> themes (or is this memes) that are doing the rounds.
> The Rhizome commissions cover the same ground: 'Artists are invited
> to
> submit proposals for works of art that focus on the theme of games.'
> Anyway, I'm sure we'll see a lot more of this stuff in the next few
> years.
> Cheers,
> Ivan
>
> > — defne ayas <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > JAN 29, 2004 Digital Culture Evening 6:30 - 8PM
> > >
> > > New York-based artist Cory Arcangel will host a
> > > games programming workshop as part of the Killer
> > > Instinct exhibition.
> > >
> > > "Killer Instinct"
> > > December 12, 2003 - February 1, 2004
> > >
> > > Once considered a pastime for kids, games are now a
> > > full-fledged part of adult life, situated as a
> > > shared public culture not unlike television. Games
> > > come off the screen and to life in this exhibition
> > > including sculpture, video, painting, and, of
> > > course, Ataris and computers. Besides experimental
> > > hacks of commercial games, Killer Instinct features
> > > artists who use game hardware and software for
> > > social commentary as well as in the development of
> > > musical and filmic projects. Player, viewer, artist,
> > > curator or critic – the cross-pollination of gaming
> > > and art spheres allows visitors to assume several of
> > > these roles during the course of the exhibition.
> > > Killer Instinct is organized by Anne Barlow and
> > > Rachel Greene.
>
>

On Friday, December 12, 2003, at 02:32PM, Patrick Simons <[email protected]> wrote:

>My original response to the announcement of the commission's theme was dismissive and trite. On reflection I think I pitched it just about right. I see the games theme as equally dismissive ….

Of what? "America's Army" is a Cultural Studies tutor's wet dream…

>I just don't think that a theme which reduces any meaningful response to it to be banal sub industry.. games (sounds like non competitive sports or digital parlour games to me), or minor subversions and discretions… dull dull dull!

Or under-examined cultural determiner.

>Perhaps all that is left are responses to consumption, cultural dallying and the only tools I have left are puns and wobbly metaphors.
>Shoot me now, again and again and…

I saw a documentary with a gang kid expressing surprise that it hurt when you got shot for real. Games are not insignificant. They muck things up as much as film and TV.

>No pun nintendoed

I wanted to model Tate Britain as a "Quake" level complete with shootable artwork. Or "Pollock", you, the canvas and various distractions. Or a Futurist NPR FPS called "Boccioni's Fist". Or Mondrian "Tetris". Howabout a Bush version of "The Sims"?

Etc.

- Rob.

Hi Rob
Exactly…
snap…
house…
I believe the murderer was Captain America, in the library ,with the reference book.
YatzEEEE
Patrick
On the computer with ……







Rob Myers wrote:

> On Friday, December 12, 2003, at 02:32PM, Patrick Simons
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >My original response to the announcement of the commission's theme
> was dismissive and trite. On reflection I think I pitched it just
> about right. I see the games theme as equally dismissive ….
>
> Of what? "America's Army" is a Cultural Studies tutor's wet dream…
>
> >I just don't think that a theme which reduces any meaningful response
> to it to be banal sub industry.. games (sounds like non competitive
> sports or digital parlour games to me), or minor subversions and
> discretions… dull dull dull!
>
> Or under-examined cultural determiner.
>
> >Perhaps all that is left are responses to consumption, cultural
> dallying and the only tools I have left are puns and wobbly metaphors.
> >Shoot me now, again and again and…
>
> I saw a documentary with a gang kid expressing surprise that it hurt
> when you got shot for real. Games are not insignificant. They muck
> things up as much as film and TV.
>
> >No pun nintendoed
>
> I wanted to model Tate Britain as a "Quake" level complete with
> shootable artwork. Or "Pollock", you, the canvas and various
> distractions. Or a Futurist NPR FPS called "Boccioni's Fist". Or
> Mondrian "Tetris". Howabout a Bush version of "The Sims"?
>
> Etc.
>
> - Rob.

On 12 Dec 2003, at 16:33, Patrick Simons wrote:

> Hi Rob

Heya.

> Exactly…

Fuzzily.

> snap…

Ouch!

> house…

Hotel.

> I believe the murderer was Captain America, in the library ,with the
> reference book.

I believe the progenitor was Marcel Duchamp, at MoMA, with Mozart's
dice.

> YatzEEEE

= McNuggets(R) squared

> Patrick
> On the computer with ……

There's only so many ellipses. I'm worried about this as I use an awful
lot of them myself. What happens when they run out? Mybe if I hoard
them:
… … … … … … .. eek! Nope. They've all gone…
No, wait, just a temporary shortage…

- Rob.

Hi di hi

A limit of ellipses?

Surely not, solar, lunar, total…

I believe it was Lucio Fontana with the scissors in the beaubourg!

How about "Triumphalism, the game that brings Mousetrap, Campaign and Twister together in one decontextualised riot of fun for all the world"?

Enough already.

The initial point I was making was something about the restrictive nature of the commission call, which seems to me can only lead to work which
is a game,
subverts a game,
adolescent (whoops, could be misinterpreted) woody allenisms about games+life.

I suppose I just want more, something less like a theme and more like a concept, less like a hook and more like a point of inspiration,…
but I am the only one, the lost and misdirected.. the self absorbed








Rob Myers wrote:

> On 12 Dec 2003, at 16:33, Patrick Simons wrote:
>
> > Hi Rob
>
> Heya.
>
> > Exactly…
>
> Fuzzily.
>
> > snap…
>
> Ouch!
>
> > house…
>
> Hotel.
>
> > I believe the murderer was Captain America, in the library ,with
> the
> > reference book.
>
> I believe the progenitor was Marcel Duchamp, at MoMA, with Mozart's
> dice.
>
> > YatzEEEE
>
> = McNuggets(R) squared
>
> > Patrick
> > On the computer with ……
>
> There's only so many ellipses. I'm worried about this as I use an
> awful
> lot of them myself. What happens when they run out? Mybe if I hoard
> them:
> … … … … … … .. eek! Nope. They've all
> gone…
> No, wait, just a temporary shortage…
>
> - Rob.
>

On 15 Dec 2003, at 09:44, Patrick Simons wrote:

> A limit of ellipses?
>
> Surely not, solar, lunar, total…

ROFL

> I believe it was Lucio Fontana with the scissors in the beaubourg!

Well we need to check the envelope now to make sure…

> How about "Triumphalism, the game that brings Mousetrap, Campaign and
> Twister together in one decontextualised riot of fun for all the
> world"?

Heh. Howabout a yBA "Top Trumps" set? Pretend to be Serota. Bagsy White
Cube…

> The initial point I was making was something about the restrictive
> nature of the commission call, which seems to me can only lead to work
> which
> is a game,
> subverts a game,
> adolescent (whoops, could be misinterpreted) woody allenisms about
> games+life.

I understand this point and I take it seriously but I've spent some
years playing, researching, and writing games (I worked for Douglas
Adams' games company for a while as a Mac programmer) and I disagree.
Games inform the ruling classes and distract the working classes to a
disturbing degree. Vietnam dragged on in part based on ill-concievd
simulations*. Nuclear war strategy was based on the same. You just know
the current western adventures in the oilfields and pipeline routes of
the middle east have the backing of some GIGO production system on a
CRAY somewhere. Gangs and soldiers think they're playing "America's
Army". And people who won't linger on the street go home to play Quake
or watch "Pop Idol", or block out the Tube with a "Gameboy".

> I suppose I just want more, something less like a theme and more like
> a concept, less like a hook and more like a point of inspiration,…

Games are a way of structuring things, in many ways they are the
opposite of narrative (before rather than after the fact, see Greg
Kostikyan's essay). We live in a games culture, this needs both barrels
rather than eyes rolling.

- Rob.

*"War Gaming", Andrew Wilson, pelican books (US edition had different
title IIRC)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140212078/qid71521207/
sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_1_3/202-1206957-7811035.

<We live in a games culture, this
needs both barrels
rather than eyes rolling.>

My difficulty ,and I completely accept it might be
something missing in me, is that games don't make my
eyes roll but close… and that the games based art
work or exhibition as an idea just seems terribly
tired too.
If they are so hegemonic and I don't accept they are,
maybe we need an antidote not an imitation or hommage.
michael
— Rob Myers <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 15 Dec 2003, at 09:44, Patrick Simons wrote:
>
> > A limit of ellipses?
> >
> > Surely not, solar, lunar, total…
>
> ROFL
>
> > I believe it was Lucio Fontana with the scissors
> in the beaubourg!
>
> Well we need to check the envelope now to make
> sure…
>
> > How about "Triumphalism, the game that brings
> Mousetrap, Campaign and
> > Twister together in one decontextualised riot of
> fun for all the
> > world"?
>
> Heh. Howabout a yBA "Top Trumps" set? Pretend to be
> Serota. Bagsy White
> Cube…
>
> > The initial point I was making was something about
> the restrictive
> > nature of the commission call, which seems to me
> can only lead to work
> > which
> > is a game,
> > subverts a game,
> > adolescent (whoops, could be misinterpreted) woody
> allenisms about
> > games+life.
>
> I understand this point and I take it seriously but
> I've spent some
> years playing, researching, and writing games (I
> worked for Douglas
> Adams' games company for a while as a Mac
> programmer) and I disagree.
> Games inform the ruling classes and distract the
> working classes to a
> disturbing degree. Vietnam dragged on in part based
> on ill-concievd
> simulations*. Nuclear war strategy was based on the
> same. You just know
> the current western adventures in the oilfields and
> pipeline routes of
> the middle east have the backing of some GIGO
> production system on a
> CRAY somewhere. Gangs and soldiers think they're
> playing "America's
> Army". And people who won't linger on the street go
> home to play Quake
> or watch "Pop Idol", or block out the Tube with a
> "Gameboy".
>
> > I suppose I just want more, something less like a
> theme and more like
> > a concept, less like a hook and more like a point
> of inspiration,…
>
> Games are a way of structuring things, in many ways
> they are the
> opposite of narrative (before rather than after the
> fact, see Greg
> Kostikyan's essay). We live in a games culture, this
> needs both barrels
> rather than eyes rolling.
>
> - Rob.
>
> *"War Gaming", Andrew Wilson, pelican books (US
> edition had different
> title IIRC)
>
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140212078/qid71521207/
>
> sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_1_3/202-1206957-7811035.
>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at
http://rhizome.org/info/29.php


=====
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http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/Some_QuickTime_Movies
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/ ***

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> My difficulty ,and I completely accept it might be
> something missing in me, is that games don't make my
> eyes roll but close… and that the games based art
> work or exhibition as an idea just seems terribly
> tired too.

Second that!


Pall Thayer
artist/teacher
Fjolbrautaskolinn vid Armula
http://www.this.is/pallit
http://www.this.is/pallit/isjs
http://www.this.is/pallit/harmony
http://130.208.220.190/panse

On 15 Dec 2003, at 23:15, Pall Thayer wrote:

>> My difficulty ,and I completely accept it might be
>> something missing in me, is that games don't make my
>> eyes roll but close… and that the games based art
>> work or exhibition as an idea just seems terribly
>> tired too.
>
> Second that!

Exhibitions of computer games do tend to produce embarrassingly
missing-the-point catalogues. But this is an area worthy of
investigation: games are trivialising rather than trivial, which is a
problem given their usual subject matter and how they are used. The US
government certainly used games produced by GDW in the 1980s, Quake is
used for training marines and I won't mention other examples again. Did
Saddam really want Playstations?

Games educate. Games reflect cultural assumptions. Games affect
perceptions. Games set policies. Games peddle unreality and offer
vicarious catahrsis. Games distract. Games have content, history and
aesthetics. Frankly the average interactive piece is a minigame
without the replay value. Games can be productively engaged with, and
do remember that just because I don't find something interesting
doesn't mean nobody else does or that it isn't culturally pertinent.

- Rob.

<Games educate. Games reflect cultural assumptions.
Games affect
perceptions. Games set policies. Games peddle
unreality and offer
vicarious catahrsis. Games distract. Games have
content, history and
aesthetics. >
Some of these statements seem to me to be
uncontroversial truisms , other parts the purest
hyperbole.
"games set policies?" really? -where? -and I don't
just mean metaphorically in the "Bush is an idiot"
sense we can all cheerfully sign up to.
"games affect perceptions" -in any meaningful and
substantive sense? - where's the research ? the onus
is upon you to show it to be so.
"games have aesthetics" -perhaps in the same way that
ads do, but a less fevered way of describing it might
be to talk about design principles or themes.

<Frankly the average interactive piece
is a minigame
without the replay value.>
The average game is an interactive art work without
any real art, driven pretty much solely by commerce.
Of course this doesn't mean we can't learn from it ,
but it's very easy to overstate the case -there's
something to be learnt from most things.
< do remember that just because I don't find something
interesting
doesn't mean nobody else does or that it isn't
culturally pertinent.>
Completely accepted - *if* I was writing a thesis
rather than attempting to make art.
It's an earnest and paralysing fallacy that because
something is an "issue" we both can and should make
art from it.
I just wish I had a quid for every call to make art
based on games I've seen in the last year - testament,
in my view, not to the pressing urgency of the issue
of games but the all too predictable curatorial
paralysis and lack of imagination in the face of what
is perceived to be fashionable, what is perceived to
be the current thing.
michael





>
> +
> -> post: [email protected]
> -> questions: [email protected]
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at
http://rhizome.org/info/29.php


=====
*** QuickTime large QuickTime NUMBER, it is small, office being nearly office OF the office OF the COMMANDS office OF the film or many nearly time the small order where that, that is the office OF the office OF the COMMANDS QuickTime when into the film, is given, it gives the office OF the
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/Some_QuickTime_Movies
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/ ***

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