Re: Does the artbase have an historicizationfunction?

Posted by Carlo Zanni | Thu Jul 3rd 2003 4:53 p.m.

Hi Alena

>>I did not come across your project as a past submission

no, exact I didn't submit that work ....but I don't think this is the
point.
Now I copy a work by Napier (just pulse is listed) and you accept it in the
art only because he didn't send you an application?
I'm not famous as Napier and for this reason I sent to rhizome the email.

> to not include "Hole in the Sky" simply because your project exists
somewhere else seems a bit extreme.

Alena are you kidding me? "exists somewhere else" are you kidding me?
for long-time I work with not loaded images , I also made a lot of paintings
with those subjects.
it's a kind of logo. And this doesn't mean nobody else can use them. Of
course they can !!!
But not coping exactly my work. That's what I'm saying. and it doesn't
matter if he doesn't know me or my work because in that work there isn't any
plagiarist internationality. Does the artbase have an historicization
function? If so there is no reason to accept that work that is the same I
did years ago.
And i didn't tell you nothing about you didn't know my work. There are a lot
of things in the air so i understand we can't not know everything. But i
sent you an email with all the details about what is happened.. so ..

>>and I apologize for any personal offense you may have taken to our
inclusion of "Hole in the Sky" in the ArtBase.

the offense are all these words and emails because Rhizome is trying to
climb mirrors.
It's ridiculous, in my mail box i've emails and emails of people disgusted
from this behaviour.
And this fact could be happen again and again.

Best Regards,

Carlo Zanni

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alena Williams" <alena@rhizome.org>
To: <list@rhizome.org>; "zanni.org" <cz@zanni.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Does the artbase have an historicizationfunction?

> Hi cz:
>
> When I read your initial post, I thought (as you seem to suggest below)
that
> you were simply informing us that you did a similar project which may have
> been made before "Hole in the Sky." Although originality is one of the
> factors we consider when deciding whether or not to include an artwork, it
> is virtually impossible to avoid all duplication (on a large and small
> scale) in the archive. In fact, many artists have explored similar issues
> using similar means but, on some level or another, have ultimately
produced
> projects which each exhibit their own unique characteristics. Although the
> Rhizome staff at times does encourage artists to submit their work to the
> archive, we rarely solicit the submission of projects with methods similar
> to those of museum curators, who, for example, exhaustively vet their
> potential purchases for originality and so on.
>
> Moreover, despite the fact that the ArtBase remains to be one of the most
> comprehensive archives of new media art, it is by no means entirely
> exhaustive. As a result, a number of projects appropriate to the archive
> and its aims (as your project appears to be) have not been included in the
> archive, simply because artists do not venture to submit their work.
Posting
> to the list does not automatically initiate this process.
>
> Nevertheless, this duplication is certainly not intentional, and I
apologize
> for any personal offense you may have taken to our inclusion of "Hole in
the
> Sky" in the ArtBase. But especially since your project is currently not in
> the archive and I did not come across your project as a past submission--I
> just checked my records, but please let me know if I am mistaken--to not
> include "Hole in the Sky" simply because your project exists somewhere
else
> seems a bit extreme. It is a more serious matter, of course, if you think
> that your intellectual property has been infringed in some way.
>
> Best regards,
> Alena
>
> + + +
>
> Alena Williams
> ArtBase Coordinator
> Rhizome.org
>
> > Does the artbase have an historicization function?
> >
> > Does the artbase have "quality" as distinguishing mark?
> >
> >
> > what happened with " Hole in the Sky " by Tom Scarpino (Hi Tom)
> > http://www.rhizome.org/object.rhiz?14018
> > it's not a great thing for the reputation and the reliability of the
artbase.
> > Above all because it's a "curatorial oriented" process and not an
automatic
> > one.
> >
> > 1- Everybody depends from others, but in this case the work it's the
same.
> >
> > 2- There isn't a duty in knowing my 2001 work (even if it passed through
the
> > list) but once this thing has been emphasized ,
> > why any official voice wrote me back?. ... everybody can make a
mistake..
> > where is the problem?
> >
> > I'm really disappointed from this behavior
> > i was expecting an answer from the artbase crew.
> >
> > Thank you
> >
> > cz
> >
> > http://www.zanni.org
> > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> > -> post: list@rhizome.org
> > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >
>
>
>
>
>
  • Alena Williams | Sat Jul 5th 2003 11:34 a.m.
    Hi Carlo:

    I think that there is a significant misunderstanding here. I don't see the
    problem in having both works in the ArtBase, or just the one. Although TS's
    project was submitted to the Artbase in 2003, it was also made in 2001.
    (This delay is typical for submissions to the ArtBase, in fact, many
    artists, anticipating that they can no longer maintain their projects
    themselves, eventually submit the work to us in some cases more than 5-6
    years after their creation). Because we can't yet say definitively who's
    work came first, the historical question continues to elude me.
    Nevertheless, it is my inclination to think that even if his project was
    produced after yours, something remains to be gained from the simple
    acknowledgment that this mediation on the events of 9/11 occurred to more
    than one artist working within the Rhizome community. Certainly, if there is
    any historical significance to consider here, it is the uncanny reproduction
    of this iconic image, and for this reason it seems impossible not to
    acknowledge both works.

    -alena

    > Hi Alena
    >
    >
    >>> I did not come across your project as a past submission
    >
    > no, exact I didn't submit that work ....but I don't think this is the
    > point.
    > Now I copy a work by Napier (just pulse is listed) and you accept it in the
    > art only because he didn't send you an application?
    > I'm not famous as Napier and for this reason I sent to rhizome the email.
    >
    >
    >
    >> to not include "Hole in the Sky" simply because your project exists
    > somewhere else seems a bit extreme.
    >
    > Alena are you kidding me? "exists somewhere else" are you kidding me?
    > for long-time I work with not loaded images , I also made a lot of paintings
    > with those subjects.
    > it's a kind of logo. And this doesn't mean nobody else can use them. Of
    > course they can !!!
    > But not coping exactly my work. That's what I'm saying. and it doesn't
    > matter if he doesn't know me or my work because in that work there isn't any
    > plagiarist internationality. Does the artbase have an historicization
    > function? If so there is no reason to accept that work that is the same I
    > did years ago.
    > And i didn't tell you nothing about you didn't know my work. There are a lot
    > of things in the air so i understand we can't not know everything. But i
    > sent you an email with all the details about what is happened.. so ..
    >
    >
    >>> and I apologize for any personal offense you may have taken to our
    > inclusion of "Hole in the Sky" in the ArtBase.
    >
    > the offense are all these words and emails because Rhizome is trying to
    > climb mirrors.
    > It's ridiculous, in my mail box i've emails and emails of people disgusted
    > from this behaviour.
    > And this fact could be happen again and again.
    >
    >
    > Best Regards,
    >
    > Carlo Zanni
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "Alena Williams" <alena@rhizome.org>
    > To: <list@rhizome.org>; "zanni.org" <cz@zanni.org>
    > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 8:50 PM
    > Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Does the artbase have an historicizationfunction?
    >
    >
    >> Hi cz:
    >>
    >> When I read your initial post, I thought (as you seem to suggest below)
    > that
    >> you were simply informing us that you did a similar project which may have
    >> been made before "Hole in the Sky." Although originality is one of the
    >> factors we consider when deciding whether or not to include an artwork, it
    >> is virtually impossible to avoid all duplication (on a large and small
    >> scale) in the archive. In fact, many artists have explored similar issues
    >> using similar means but, on some level or another, have ultimately
    > produced
    >> projects which each exhibit their own unique characteristics. Although the
    >> Rhizome staff at times does encourage artists to submit their work to the
    >> archive, we rarely solicit the submission of projects with methods similar
    >> to those of museum curators, who, for example, exhaustively vet their
    >> potential purchases for originality and so on.
    >>
    >> Moreover, despite the fact that the ArtBase remains to be one of the most
    >> comprehensive archives of new media art, it is by no means entirely
    >> exhaustive. As a result, a number of projects appropriate to the archive
    >> and its aims (as your project appears to be) have not been included in the
    >> archive, simply because artists do not venture to submit their work.
    > Posting
    >> to the list does not automatically initiate this process.
    >>
    >> Nevertheless, this duplication is certainly not intentional, and I
    > apologize
    >> for any personal offense you may have taken to our inclusion of "Hole in
    > the
    >> Sky" in the ArtBase. But especially since your project is currently not in
    >> the archive and I did not come across your project as a past submission--I
    >> just checked my records, but please let me know if I am mistaken--to not
    >> include "Hole in the Sky" simply because your project exists somewhere
    > else
    >> seems a bit extreme. It is a more serious matter, of course, if you think
    >> that your intellectual property has been infringed in some way.
    >>
    >> Best regards,
    >> Alena
    >>
    >> + + +
    >>
    >> Alena Williams
    >> ArtBase Coordinator
    >> Rhizome.org
    >>
    >>> Does the artbase have an historicization function?
    >>>
    >>> Does the artbase have "quality" as distinguishing mark?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> what happened with " Hole in the Sky " by Tom Scarpino (Hi Tom)
    >>> http://www.rhizome.org/object.rhiz?14018
    >>> it's not a great thing for the reputation and the reliability of the
    > artbase.
    >>> Above all because it's a "curatorial oriented" process and not an
    > automatic
    >>> one.
    >>>
    >>> 1- Everybody depends from others, but in this case the work it's the
    > same.
    >>>
    >>> 2- There isn't a duty in knowing my 2001 work (even if it passed through
    > the
    >>> list) but once this thing has been emphasized ,
    >>> why any official voice wrote me back?. ... everybody can make a
    > mistake..
    >>> where is the problem?
    >>>
    >>> I'm really disappointed from this behavior
    >>> i was expecting an answer from the artbase crew.
    >>>
    >>> Thank you
    >>>
    >>> cz
    >>>
    >>> http://www.zanni.org
    >>> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
    >>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >>> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    >>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    >>> +
    >>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >>> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
  • carlo zanni | Tue Jul 8th 2003 9:46 a.m.
    Dear Alena and Rachel,

    I say that TS didn't copy me but again, i write you these lines for
    the sake of the historical function that rhizome may have - which
    again is a point per se that i think should be clarified.

    1- I think there is no reason to have both works in the artbase beacuse they
    are the same work.

    2 - And Alena says : "Because we can't yet say definitively who's
    work came first, the historical question continues to elude me."

    So I found in my pc the evidence of what I'm saying..
    The only thing I'm sure is that I did that piece on September 13th 2001.

    (did TS do it before that date? Can he prove what he is saying? )

    I work with not loaded images since 1999 and probably that's the reason why
    I did that piece a few hours after the 9.11. My mind is always set on that
    subject. I'm really proud of that simple and minimalist work.
    But as you may be understand I'm bored about words.

    And below these lines you can read a little dialogue with a guy called
    Turner Mark-Jacobs. Who is him? He is a guy from The Art Institute of
    Chicago and he did a small net show on October 24 2001 about 9-11.

    BUT

    The first email I sent him is dated September 28th 2001.
    And in that email I say that my work about 9-11 was MY HOMEPAGE made on
    09/13/2001

    --------------this is the email:

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: ZANNIorg
    To: Turner Mark-Jacobs email
    Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 11:38 AM
    Subject: 9/11 submission

    Hello,
    here it is the link at my work, www.zanni.org the home page of my site.

    this work is on line from the 09/13/2001
    when I asked for a 3 minute blank page. (see thething, bulletin board)

    thank you very much
    please let me know

    :)
    .beta

    ---------------in his answer he tells me
    -------Hi .beta,
    Thanks for your submission. However, when I opened your attachment, I
    couldn't
    see the WTC's, just the 'broken gif' icon. Is this part of your
    idea? --------

    ----------------and I again as answer:

    ----Hi TMJ

    yes, the 2 broken .gif are the work.
    we will always have the "space" in our memory, but nomore the images.
    you can see something of similar in my www; i painted them too ...
    ..
    keep in touch
    .beta----
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -----------

    I forward you those emails, (just one that is the third reply), so you can
    read at the bottom of it also MY FIRST EMAIL

    Am I paranoid?
    I don't know.. I'm just "fighting" to defend my work ;)
    Sure you can understand me...
    And sure also that this experience it isn't just a personal thing.. perhaps
    it's the first time it happened at rhizome..

    Thanks a lot for your attention..

    Best Regards,
    Carlo Zanni
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