Re: Digital Artists: Call for Entries

Posted by Michael Szpakowski | Sun Jun 1st 2003 9:04 p.m.

<* Non-pornographic and non-political>
this is an interesting equation!
michael

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  • ruth catlow | Sun Jun 1st 2003 9:36 p.m.
    I think they're looking for conservative art that won't challenge the interests of the sponsors
    and we all think that's OK. OK?
    ;-)
    ruth

    Michael Szpakowski wrote:

    > <* Non-pornographic and non-political>
    > this is an interesting equation!
    > michael
    >
    > =====
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  • Rachel Greene | Tue Jun 3rd 2003 11:05 a.m.
    Begin forwarded message:

    > From: Trevor Smith <TSmith@newmuseum.org>
    > Date: Tue Jun 3, 2003 10:00:52 AM US/Eastern
    > To: "'rachel@rhizome.org'" <rachel@rhizome.org>,
    > "'d.kreckler@ecu.edu.au'" <d.kreckler@ecu.edu.au>
    > Subject: FW: Digital Artists: Call for Entries
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Jon Tomlinson [mailto:digital@bigdaddyenterprises.biz]
    > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 8:54 AM
    > To: jon@bigdaddyenterprises.biz
    > Subject: Digital Artists: Call for Entries
    >
    >
    > Good morning...
    >
    > As part of an event I am putting together, I'd like to feature the
    > work of
    > approximately 10 digital artists. The nice thing is that I'll be able
    > to
    > pay them for the efforts. So... if you know of anyone who would like
    > to
    > participate, would you mind passing along the attached Call for
    > Entries?
    >
    > Thanks... take care,
    > Jon Tomlinson
    >
    >
    >
  • Michael Szpakowski | Tue Jun 3rd 2003 3:48 p.m.
    This call was posted to the list directly a couple of
    days back.
    Both Ruth Catlow & I pointed out then that they're
    willing to pay , if you're willing to self censor for
    the benefit of their corporate sponsor. The
    extraordinary turn of phrase was " non pornographic
    and nonpolitical" I think, althoguh interestingly this
    appears only as "non pornogrphic" in the pdf
    attachment here.
    So politics and pornography is out but apparently a
    bit of corporate whoring is completely acceptable.
    best
    michael
    --- Rachel Greene <rachel@rhizome.org> wrote:
    >
    >
    > Begin forwarded message:
    >
    > > From: Trevor Smith <TSmith@newmuseum.org>
    > > Date: Tue Jun 3, 2003 10:00:52 AM US/Eastern
    > > To: "'rachel@rhizome.org'" <rachel@rhizome.org>,
    > > "'d.kreckler@ecu.edu.au'" <d.kreckler@ecu.edu.au>
    > > Subject: FW: Digital Artists: Call for Entries
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: Jon Tomlinson
    > [mailto:digital@bigdaddyenterprises.biz]
    > > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 8:54 AM
    > > To: jon@bigdaddyenterprises.biz
    > > Subject: Digital Artists: Call for Entries
    > >
    > >
    > > Good morning...
    > >
    > > As part of an event I am putting together, I'd
    > like to feature the
    > > work of
    > > approximately 10 digital artists. The nice thing
    > is that I'll be able
    > > to
    > > pay them for the efforts. So... if you know of
    > anyone who would like
    > > to
    > > participate, would you mind passing along the
    > attached Call for
    > > Entries?
    > >
    > > Thanks... take care,
    > > Jon Tomlinson
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >

    > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/pdf x-unix-mode66;
    name=DIGITALCFE_2.pdf

    =====
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  • Rachel Greene | Tue Jun 3rd 2003 4:08 p.m.
    Sorry about the double posting -- I get many emails asking me to
    forward on to the list, and while I check to see if something has
    already been posted, I don't always catch everything. Especially as
    people post announcements on different days. Anyway, glad there was a
    distinction between posts that merited note. -- Rachel

    On Tuesday, June 3, 2003, at 02:47 PM, Michael Szpakowski wrote:

    > This call was posted to the list directly a couple of
    > days back.
    > Both Ruth Catlow & I pointed out then that they're
    > willing to pay , if you're willing to self censor for
    > the benefit of their corporate sponsor. The
    > extraordinary turn of phrase was " non pornographic
    > and nonpolitical" I think, althoguh interestingly this
    > appears only as "non pornogrphic" in the pdf
    > attachment here.
    > So politics and pornography is out but apparently a
    > bit of corporate whoring is completely acceptable.
    > best
    > michael
    > --- Rachel Greene <rachel@rhizome.org> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >> Begin forwarded message:
    >>
    >>> From: Trevor Smith <TSmith@newmuseum.org>
    >>> Date: Tue Jun 3, 2003 10:00:52 AM US/Eastern
    >>> To: "'rachel@rhizome.org'" <rachel@rhizome.org>,
    >>> "'d.kreckler@ecu.edu.au'" <d.kreckler@ecu.edu.au>
    >>> Subject: FW: Digital Artists: Call for Entries
    >>> -----Original Message-----
    >>> From: Jon Tomlinson
    >> [mailto:digital@bigdaddyenterprises.biz]
    >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 8:54 AM
    >>> To: jon@bigdaddyenterprises.biz
    >>> Subject: Digital Artists: Call for Entries
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Good morning...
    >>>
    >>> As part of an event I am putting together, I'd
    >> like to feature the
    >>> work of
    >>> approximately 10 digital artists. The nice thing
    >> is that I'll be able
    >>> to
    >>> pay them for the efforts. So... if you know of
    >> anyone who would like
    >>> to
    >>> participate, would you mind passing along the
    >> attached Call for
    >>> Entries?
    >>>
    >>> Thanks... take care,
    >>> Jon Tomlinson
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>
    >
    >> ATTACHMENT part 2 application/pdf x-unix-mode66;
    > name=DIGITALCFE_2.pdf
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > =====
    > *DISCLAIMER:This email any advice it contains is for the use is that
    > of the sender and does not bind the precautions to minimise authority
    > in any way. If you copy or distribute this by software viruses email.
    > We have taken the risk of transmitting software viruses, but we advise
    > that you carry out your own virus attachment to this message. Internet
    > email that you observe this lack is not a secure communication
    > medium, and we advise of security when emailing us. District
    > Postmaster. http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/ *
    >
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    >
  • Michael Szpakowski | Tue Jun 3rd 2003 4:24 p.m.
    I wasn't moaning at you Rachel -it always strikes me
    as a bit over fussy to complain about double postings.
    Neither do I think "it shouldn't be posted on this
    list" or anything like that...no, it was the content
    of both versions of the call that I thought called for
    comment- besides the politics and "pornography"
    exclusions it seems also to be demanding pieces that
    will be light and diverting and not overly tax the
    braincells or attention span of the corporate movers
    and shakers - digital "art" as corporate
    entertainment.
    best
    michael

    --- Rachel Greene <rachel@rhizome.org> wrote:
    > Sorry about the double posting -- I get many emails
    > asking me to
    > forward on to the list, and while I check to see if
    > something has
    > already been posted, I don't always catch
    > everything. Especially as
    > people post announcements on different days. Anyway,
    > glad there was a
    > distinction between posts that merited note. --
    > Rachel
    >
    > On Tuesday, June 3, 2003, at 02:47 PM, Michael
    > Szpakowski wrote:
    >
    > > This call was posted to the list directly a couple
    > of
    > > days back.
    > > Both Ruth Catlow & I pointed out then that they're
    > > willing to pay , if you're willing to self censor
    > for
    > > the benefit of their corporate sponsor. The
    > > extraordinary turn of phrase was " non
    > pornographic
    > > and nonpolitical" I think, althoguh interestingly
    > this
    > > appears only as "non pornogrphic" in the pdf
    > > attachment here.
    > > So politics and pornography is out but apparently
    > a
    > > bit of corporate whoring is completely acceptable.
    > > best
    > > michael
    > > --- Rachel Greene <rachel@rhizome.org> wrote:
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> Begin forwarded message:
    > >>
    > >>> From: Trevor Smith <TSmith@newmuseum.org>
    > >>> Date: Tue Jun 3, 2003 10:00:52 AM US/Eastern
    > >>> To: "'rachel@rhizome.org'" <rachel@rhizome.org>,
    > >>> "'d.kreckler@ecu.edu.au'"
    > <d.kreckler@ecu.edu.au>
    > >>> Subject: FW: Digital Artists: Call for Entries
    > >>> -----Original Message-----
    > >>> From: Jon Tomlinson
    > >> [mailto:digital@bigdaddyenterprises.biz]
    > >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 8:54 AM
    > >>> To: jon@bigdaddyenterprises.biz
    > >>> Subject: Digital Artists: Call for Entries
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>> Good morning...
    > >>>
    > >>> As part of an event I am putting together, I'd
    > >> like to feature the
    > >>> work of
    > >>> approximately 10 digital artists. The nice
    > thing
    > >> is that I'll be able
    > >>> to
    > >>> pay them for the efforts. So... if you know of
    > >> anyone who would like
    > >>> to
    > >>> participate, would you mind passing along the
    > >> attached Call for
    > >>> Entries?
    > >>>
    > >>> Thanks... take care,
    > >>> Jon Tomlinson
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>
    > >
    > >> ATTACHMENT part 2 application/pdf
    > x-unix-mode66;
    > > name=DIGITALCFE_2.pdf
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > =====
    > > *DISCLAIMER:This email any advice it contains is
    > for the use is that
    > > of the sender and does not bind the precautions to
    > minimise authority
    > > in any way. If you copy or distribute this by
    > software viruses email.
    > > We have taken the risk of transmitting software
    > viruses, but we advise
    > > that you carry out your own virus attachment to
    > this message. Internet
    > > email that you observe this lack is not a secure
    > communication
    > > medium, and we advise of security when emailing
    > us. District
    > > Postmaster.
    > http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/ *
    > >
    > > __________________________________________________
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    > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    > >
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  • ruth catlow | Tue Jun 3rd 2003 4:47 p.m.
    Just before the recent 'critiquing of the critics', i posted to Rhizome with a very serious question; about artists being invited to submit work, with an assurance that their work would not challenge the interests of the sponsors.

    'critiquing of the critics' launched its analysis and damning judgment, of a moment of friendly appreciation among artists and writers who have each shared work in progress and contributed thoughtful and critical debate to this list over the last year.

    The first represents a money/power taboo and the second a human emotion taboo.
    I wonder how useful or necessary are these restrictions are?

    Artist's self censorship- who needs the first amendment?

    regards
    ruth

    Michael Szpakowski wrote:

    > This call was posted to the list directly a couple of
    > days back.
    > Both Ruth Catlow & I pointed out then that they're
    > willing to pay , if you're willing to self censor for
    > the benefit of their corporate sponsor. The
    > extraordinary turn of phrase was " non pornographic
    > and nonpolitical" I think, althoguh interestingly this
    > appears only as "non pornogrphic" in the pdf
    > attachment here.
    > So politics and pornography is out but apparently a
    > bit of corporate whoring is completely acceptable.
    > best
    > michael
    > --- Rachel Greene <rachel@rhizome.org> wrote:
    > >
    > >
    > > Begin forwarded message:
    > >
    > > > From: Trevor Smith <TSmith@newmuseum.org>
    > > > Date: Tue Jun 3, 2003 10:00:52 AM US/Eastern
    > > > To: "'rachel@rhizome.org'" <rachel@rhizome.org>,
    > > > "'d.kreckler@ecu.edu.au'" <d.kreckler@ecu.edu.au>
    > > > Subject: FW: Digital Artists: Call for Entries
    > > > -----Original Message-----
    > > > From: Jon Tomlinson
    > > [mailto:digital@bigdaddyenterprises.biz]
    > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 8:54 AM
    > > > To: jon@bigdaddyenterprises.biz
    > > > Subject: Digital Artists: Call for Entries
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Good morning...
    > > >
    > > > As part of an event I am putting together, I'd
    > > like to feature the
    > > > work of
    > > > approximately 10 digital artists. The nice thing
    > > is that I'll be able
    > > > to
    > > > pay them for the efforts. So... if you know of
    > > anyone who would like
    > > > to
    > > > participate, would you mind passing along the
    > > attached Call for
    > > > Entries?
    > > >
    > > > Thanks... take care,
    > > > Jon Tomlinson
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > >
    >
    > > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/pdf x-unix-mode66;
    > name=DIGITALCFE_2.pdf
    >
    > =====
    > *DISCLAIMER:This email any advice it contains is for the use is that of the sender and does not bind the precautions to minimise authority in any way. If you copy or distribute this by software viruses email. We have taken the risk of transmitting software viruses, but we advise that you carry out your own virus attachment to this message. Internet email that you observe this lack is not a secure communication medium, and we advise of security when emailing us. District Postmaster. http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/ *
    >
    > __________________________________________________
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    > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo
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  • marc garrett | Tue Jun 3rd 2003 5:05 p.m.
    What type of art work is likely to happen because of this?

    >Artist's self censorship- who needs the first amendment?

    marc
  • MTAA | Tue Jun 3rd 2003 5:18 p.m.
    At 20:47 +0100 6/3/03, ruth catlow wrote:
    >Just before the recent 'critiquing of the critics', i posted to
    >Rhizome with a very serious question; about artists being invited to
    >submit work, with an assurance that their work would not challenge
    >the interests of the sponsors.
    >
    >'critiquing of the critics' launched its analysis and damning
    >judgment, of a moment of friendly appreciation among artists and
    >writers who have each shared work in progress and contributed
    >thoughtful and critical debate to this list over the last year.

    ++
    hiya ruth,

    i wouldn't call my mild critique 'damning judgement', simply
    reminding people that i (and many others i imagine) expect at least a
    bit of rigor in our art talk on this list. It's been a trend on Rhiz
    that I've been noticing a bit in the past few months so I took
    advantage of the large amount of tossed-off praise surrounding Jess's
    latest as my chance to address it.

    It simply goes back to the long-running debate on Rhiz as to whether
    this space should function more as a cocktail party or should it
    function on a higher level. Perhaps the debate doesn't need reviving?
    I can see that side of the argument. i know i'm as guilty as anyone
    in making tossed-off, unthoughtful posts from time to time (or even
    more often).

    personally, i like cocktail parties much better when there are actual
    cocktails in everyone's hands ;-) email lists function better when
    more thought is put into posts than is put into your average cocktail
    party chatter IMO.
    ++

    >
    >The first represents a money/power taboo and the second a human
    >emotion taboo.
    >I wonder how useful or necessary are these restrictions are?
    >
    >Artist's self censorship- who needs the first amendment?
    >
    >regards
    >ruth

    --
    <twhid>
    http://www.mteww.com
    </twhid>
  • Michael Szpakowski | Tue Jun 3rd 2003 6:25 p.m.
    See, T. - I think you're being just a bit disingenuous
    here.
    All of the people involved in praising Jess's work
    yesterday have posted rigorous, critical and closely
    argued stuff over the last few months.
    I for one posted a good deal about the Arcangel piece
    that I think was pretty closely argued and as you may
    recall, extremely critical and unclubby.
    I seem to remember that your reaction was incredulity
    that anyone could dislike the piece or, in a connected
    issue, dismiss the sainted Duchamp and Cage, for,
    after all, they have been canonized by "art history".
    Could it be that your reaction to the posts has more
    to do with the fact that many of those posting have
    either explicitly or implicitly adopted positions on
    this list that are opposed to your idea of what
    constitutes good or serious art.
    In an offlist mail to me you denied that you had
    accused us of insincerity and yet the only other
    possible reading of your post is that you believe that
    you have some sort of privileged access as to what
    constitutes the worthwhile.
    Tell us please, just who *are* the Sunday painters,
    the dilettantes of your post?
    If you didn't think Jess's piece was any good then why
    not address *that* rather than impugning the motives
    of those who did?
    I'd be more than happy to take part in an extended
    and detailed discussion about the actual artistic
    issues involved.
    michael

    --- "t.whid" <twhid@mteww.com> wrote:
    > At 20:47 +0100 6/3/03, ruth catlow wrote:
    > >Just before the recent 'critiquing of the critics',
    > i posted to
    > >Rhizome with a very serious question; about artists
    > being invited to
    > >submit work, with an assurance that their work
    > would not challenge
    > >the interests of the sponsors.
    > >
    > >'critiquing of the critics' launched its analysis
    > and damning
    > >judgment, of a moment of friendly appreciation
    > among artists and
    > >writers who have each shared work in progress and
    > contributed
    > >thoughtful and critical debate to this list over
    > the last year.
    >
    > ++
    > hiya ruth,
    >
    > i wouldn't call my mild critique 'damning
    > judgement', simply
    > reminding people that i (and many others i imagine)
    > expect at least a
    > bit of rigor in our art talk on this list. It's been
    > a trend on Rhiz
    > that I've been noticing a bit in the past few months
    > so I took
    > advantage of the large amount of tossed-off praise
    > surrounding Jess's
    > latest as my chance to address it.
    >
    > It simply goes back to the long-running debate on
    > Rhiz as to whether
    > this space should function more as a cocktail party
    > or should it
    > function on a higher level. Perhaps the debate
    > doesn't need reviving?
    > I can see that side of the argument. i know i'm as
    > guilty as anyone
    > in making tossed-off, unthoughtful posts from time
    > to time (or even
    > more often).
    >
    > personally, i like cocktail parties much better when
    > there are actual
    > cocktails in everyone's hands ;-) email lists
    > function better when
    > more thought is put into posts than is put into your
    > average cocktail
    > party chatter IMO.
    > ++
    >
    > >
    > >The first represents a money/power taboo and the
    > second a human
    > >emotion taboo.
    > >I wonder how useful or necessary are these
    > restrictions are?
    > >
    > >Artist's self censorship- who needs the first
    > amendment?
    > >
    > >regards
    > >ruth
    >
    > --
    > <twhid>
    > http://www.mteww.com
    > </twhid>
    > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
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    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
    > out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at
    http://rhizome.org/info/29.php

    =====
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  • MTAA | Tue Jun 3rd 2003 7:02 p.m.
    ---- Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com> wrote:
    > See, T. - I think you're being just a bit disingenuous
    > here.

    how? I've been honest the entire time.

    > All of the people involved in praising Jess's work
    > yesterday have posted rigorous, critical and closely
    > argued stuff over the last few months.

    no argument, i was responding specifically to the posts i quoted in my
    original post.

    > Could it be that your reaction to the posts has more
    > to do with the fact that many of those posting have
    > either explicitly or implicitly adopted positions on
    > this list that are opposed to your idea of what
    > constitutes good or serious art.

    no, that could not be.

    > In an offlist mail to me you denied that you had
    > accused us of insincerity and yet the only other
    > possible reading of your post is that you believe that
    > you have some sort of privileged access as to what
    > constitutes the worthwhile.

    who's being disingenuous? I only posted that the specific remarks
    quoted in the post where not serious art discussion but rather mere
    back-slapping. I have no privilege other than being able to read the
    english language. I had no doubt that the back-slapping was genuine, my
    critique was with the depth of the praise, not that it wasn't genuine
    or deserved.

    > Tell us please, just who *are* the Sunday painters,
    > the dilettantes of your post?

    people who aren't on this list. most on this list don't fit into this
    category. that was my critique, we are collectively better than
    that and i was hoping to raise the level of discussion.

    > If you didn't think Jess's piece was any good then why
    > not address *that* rather than impugning the motives
    > of those who did?

    this is ridiculous. my opinions regarding Jess' piece have nothing to
    do with my post. i didn't want to mix up whatever my reaction to the
    piece might be and my criticism of the remarks surrounding it.

    > I'd be more than happy to take part in an extended
    > and detailed discussion about the actual artistic
    > issues involved.

    that's all fine and good, but my point was to address the level of
    critical discussion and i think i'm through with it.

    take care,
    <twhid>
    http://www.mteww.com
    </twhid>
  • marc garrett | Tue Jun 3rd 2003 8:08 p.m.
    Personally, I'm all for back-slapping rather than back-stabbing...

    marc

    > See, T. - I think you're being just a bit disingenuous
    > here.
    > All of the people involved in praising Jess's work
    > yesterday have posted rigorous, critical and closely
    > argued stuff over the last few months.
    > I for one posted a good deal about the Arcangel piece
    > that I think was pretty closely argued and as you may
    > recall, extremely critical and unclubby.
    > I seem to remember that your reaction was incredulity
    > that anyone could dislike the piece or, in a connected
    > issue, dismiss the sainted Duchamp and Cage, for,
    > after all, they have been canonized by "art history".
    > Could it be that your reaction to the posts has more
    > to do with the fact that many of those posting have
    > either explicitly or implicitly adopted positions on
    > this list that are opposed to your idea of what
    > constitutes good or serious art.
    > In an offlist mail to me you denied that you had
    > accused us of insincerity and yet the only other
    > possible reading of your post is that you believe that
    > you have some sort of privileged access as to what
    > constitutes the worthwhile.
    > Tell us please, just who *are* the Sunday painters,
    > the dilettantes of your post?
    > If you didn't think Jess's piece was any good then why
    > not address *that* rather than impugning the motives
    > of those who did?
    > I'd be more than happy to take part in an extended
    > and detailed discussion about the actual artistic
    > issues involved.
    > michael
    >
    > --- "t.whid" <twhid@mteww.com> wrote:
    > > At 20:47 +0100 6/3/03, ruth catlow wrote:
    > > >Just before the recent 'critiquing of the critics',
    > > i posted to
    > > >Rhizome with a very serious question; about artists
    > > being invited to
    > > >submit work, with an assurance that their work
    > > would not challenge
    > > >the interests of the sponsors.
    > > >
    > > >'critiquing of the critics' launched its analysis
    > > and damning
    > > >judgment, of a moment of friendly appreciation
    > > among artists and
    > > >writers who have each shared work in progress and
    > > contributed
    > > >thoughtful and critical debate to this list over
    > > the last year.
    > >
    > > ++
    > > hiya ruth,
    > >
    > > i wouldn't call my mild critique 'damning
    > > judgement', simply
    > > reminding people that i (and many others i imagine)
    > > expect at least a
    > > bit of rigor in our art talk on this list. It's been
    > > a trend on Rhiz
    > > that I've been noticing a bit in the past few months
    > > so I took
    > > advantage of the large amount of tossed-off praise
    > > surrounding Jess's
    > > latest as my chance to address it.
    > >
    > > It simply goes back to the long-running debate on
    > > Rhiz as to whether
    > > this space should function more as a cocktail party
    > > or should it
    > > function on a higher level. Perhaps the debate
    > > doesn't need reviving?
    > > I can see that side of the argument. i know i'm as
    > > guilty as anyone
    > > in making tossed-off, unthoughtful posts from time
    > > to time (or even
    > > more often).
    > >
    > > personally, i like cocktail parties much better when
    > > there are actual
    > > cocktails in everyone's hands ;-) email lists
    > > function better when
    > > more thought is put into posts than is put into your
    > > average cocktail
    > > party chatter IMO.
    > > ++
    > >
    > > >
    > > >The first represents a money/power taboo and the
    > > second a human
    > > >emotion taboo.
    > > >I wonder how useful or necessary are these
    > > restrictions are?
    > > >
    > > >Artist's self censorship- who needs the first
    > > amendment?
    > > >
    > > >regards
    > > >ruth
    > >
    > > --
    > > <twhid>
    > > http://www.mteww.com
    > > </twhid>
    > > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
    > > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    > > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > > +
    > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
    > > out in the
    > > Membership Agreement available online at
    > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
    >
    > =====
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  • marc garrett | Tue Jun 3rd 2003 9:22 p.m.
    OK T.Whid,

    Let's get back to discussing & offering good solid critique. I'm all for it.

    Always have been - one small slip up & I'm crucified, fried on the spit for
    lunch. Used as an example, as the cause for all the shit. So many others
    have put stuff that is much, much worse. And you suddnely out of nowhere
    decide that I am the one. Kick me while I'm smiliing - thanx.

    Why try & knock someone down to make a point?
    What have I done to you that deserves such disrespect?

    Sure, it was not an appropriate dialogue - but surely its got more to do
    with the lack of list activity ever since the rhizome changes.

    There are many who were linked here from europe - loads have vanished. So
    now discussion is done by only a few on this list. Although, I still beleive
    that some of it has been pretty interesting and dynamic in places - not as
    regular as before, or as much. Its more to do with numbers not necessarily
    the quality. Many people before felt part of something, now they don't. It's
    all changed - when people feel part of something they are more likely to
    contribute with quality. It's a natural thing...

    marc

    >
    >
    > ---- Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com> wrote:
    > > See, T. - I think you're being just a bit disingenuous
    > > here.
    >
    > how? I've been honest the entire time.
    >
    >
    > > All of the people involved in praising Jess's work
    > > yesterday have posted rigorous, critical and closely
    > > argued stuff over the last few months.
    >
    > no argument, i was responding specifically to the posts i quoted in my
    > original post.
    >
    >
    > > Could it be that your reaction to the posts has more
    > > to do with the fact that many of those posting have
    > > either explicitly or implicitly adopted positions on
    > > this list that are opposed to your idea of what
    > > constitutes good or serious art.
    >
    > no, that could not be.
    >
    > > In an offlist mail to me you denied that you had
    > > accused us of insincerity and yet the only other
    > > possible reading of your post is that you believe that
    > > you have some sort of privileged access as to what
    > > constitutes the worthwhile.
    >
    > who's being disingenuous? I only posted that the specific remarks
    > quoted in the post where not serious art discussion but rather mere
    > back-slapping. I have no privilege other than being able to read the
    > english language. I had no doubt that the back-slapping was genuine, my
    > critique was with the depth of the praise, not that it wasn't genuine
    > or deserved.
    >
    > > Tell us please, just who *are* the Sunday painters,
    > > the dilettantes of your post?
    >
    > people who aren't on this list. most on this list don't fit into this
    > category. that was my critique, we are collectively better than
    > that and i was hoping to raise the level of discussion.
    >
    > > If you didn't think Jess's piece was any good then why
    > > not address *that* rather than impugning the motives
    > > of those who did?
    >
    > this is ridiculous. my opinions regarding Jess' piece have nothing to
    > do with my post. i didn't want to mix up whatever my reaction to the
    > piece might be and my criticism of the remarks surrounding it.
    >
    > > I'd be more than happy to take part in an extended
    > > and detailed discussion about the actual artistic
    > > issues involved.
    >
    > that's all fine and good, but my point was to address the level of
    > critical discussion and i think i'm through with it.
    >
    > take care,
    > <twhid>
    > http://www.mteww.com
    > </twhid>
    > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
    >

    >
    >
    > ---- Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com> wrote:
    > > See, T. - I think you're being just a bit disingenuous
    > > here.
    >
    > how? I've been honest the entire time.
    >
    >
    > > All of the people involved in praising Jess's work
    > > yesterday have posted rigorous, critical and closely
    > > argued stuff over the last few months.
    >
    > no argument, i was responding specifically to the posts i quoted in my
    > original post.
    >
    >
    > > Could it be that your reaction to the posts has more
    > > to do with the fact that many of those posting have
    > > either explicitly or implicitly adopted positions on
    > > this list that are opposed to your idea of what
    > > constitutes good or serious art.
    >
    > no, that could not be.
    >
    > > In an offlist mail to me you denied that you had
    > > accused us of insincerity and yet the only other
    > > possible reading of your post is that you believe that
    > > you have some sort of privileged access as to what
    > > constitutes the worthwhile.
    >
    > who's being disingenuous? I only posted that the specific remarks
    > quoted in the post where not serious art discussion but rather mere
    > back-slapping. I have no privilege other than being able to read the
    > english language. I had no doubt that the back-slapping was genuine, my
    > critique was with the depth of the praise, not that it wasn't genuine
    > or deserved.
    >
    > > Tell us please, just who *are* the Sunday painters,
    > > the dilettantes of your post?
    >
    > people who aren't on this list. most on this list don't fit into this
    > category. that was my critique, we are collectively better than
    > that and i was hoping to raise the level of discussion.
    >
    > > If you didn't think Jess's piece was any good then why
    > > not address *that* rather than impugning the motives
    > > of those who did?
    >
    > this is ridiculous. my opinions regarding Jess' piece have nothing to
    > do with my post. i didn't want to mix up whatever my reaction to the
    > piece might be and my criticism of the remarks surrounding it.
    >
    > > I'd be more than happy to take part in an extended
    > > and detailed discussion about the actual artistic
    > > issues involved.
    >
    > that's all fine and good, but my point was to address the level of
    > critical discussion and i think i'm through with it.
    >
    > take care,
    > <twhid>
    > http://www.mteww.com
    > </twhid>
    > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
    >
  • joseph mcelroy | Tue Jun 3rd 2003 10:38 p.m.
    May I point out to one and all that the extent of a certain t.whid's brilliant critique of our own work consisted almost entirely of the words

    "crappy work"

    <applause><applause>

    Q: What do you get when you cross a hippopotamus and a black hawk?
    A: A Hippocritic dressed in black.

    <applause><applause>

    joseph

    t.whid wrote:

    >
    >
    > ---- Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com> wrote:
    > > See, T. - I think you're being just a bit disingenuous
    > > here.
    >
    > how? I've been honest the entire time.
    >
    >
    > > All of the people involved in praising Jess's work
    > > yesterday have posted rigorous, critical and closely
    > > argued stuff over the last few months.
    >
    > no argument, i was responding specifically to the posts i quoted in
    > my
    > original post.
    >
    >
    > > Could it be that your reaction to the posts has more
    > > to do with the fact that many of those posting have
    > > either explicitly or implicitly adopted positions on
    > > this list that are opposed to your idea of what
    > > constitutes good or serious art.
    >
    > no, that could not be.
    >
    > > In an offlist mail to me you denied that you had
    > > accused us of insincerity and yet the only other
    > > possible reading of your post is that you believe that
    > > you have some sort of privileged access as to what
    > > constitutes the worthwhile.
    >
    > who's being disingenuous? I only posted that the specific remarks
    > quoted in the post where not serious art discussion but rather mere
    > back-slapping. I have no privilege other than being able to read the
    > english language. I had no doubt that the back-slapping was genuine,
    > my
    > critique was with the depth of the praise, not that it wasn't genuine
    > or deserved.
    >
    > > Tell us please, just who *are* the Sunday painters,
    > > the dilettantes of your post?
    >
    > people who aren't on this list. most on this list don't fit into this
    > category. that was my critique, we are collectively better than
    > that and i was hoping to raise the level of discussion.
    >
    > > If you didn't think Jess's piece was any good then why
    > > not address *that* rather than impugning the motives
    > > of those who did?
    >
    > this is ridiculous. my opinions regarding Jess' piece have nothing to
    > do with my post. i didn't want to mix up whatever my reaction to the
    > piece might be and my criticism of the remarks surrounding it.
    >
    > > I'd be more than happy to take part in an extended
    > > and detailed discussion about the actual artistic
    > > issues involved.
    >
    > that's all fine and good, but my point was to address the level of
    > critical discussion and i think i'm through with it.
    >
    > take care,
    > <twhid>
    > http://www.mteww.com
    > </twhid>
  • Eryk Salvaggio | Tue Jun 3rd 2003 11:33 p.m.
    It seems Oro Bourous, Outsider Net.Artist has a following.

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Michael Szpakowski" <szpako@yahoo.com>

    > besides the politics and "pornography"
    > exclusions it seems also to be demanding pieces that
    > will be light and diverting and not overly tax the
    > braincells or attention span of the corporate movers
    > and shakers - digital "art" as corporate
    > entertainment.

    "We reject the idea that we should even try to have our work in such a
    context, because our work should not be enslaved by being seen. And because
    we feel we could not have our work shown in a system that is so corrupt.
    Instead, our work exists in real life, and in conversation- we talk about
    the projects we would make, if only getting a grant was easier. And while we
    could simply make art in the streets, we reject that, as well, because
    having our art in the streets with trash and car exhaust is a disservice to
    our ideas. In this way, our ideas remain untainted by actualization.

    But if they changed this system of appraising "quality" based on things they
    did not understand, I might be able to participate in the art world. As it
    is, I want to make a living off of my art, but I refuse to compromise. And
    it is the fault of the institutions for not paying money based solely on an
    artists unwillingness to compromise. That is why I reject the institutions
    altogether, and why I have dedicated my life to complaints about them."

    -Oro Bouros, Outsider Net.Artist
  • curt cloninger | Wed Jun 4th 2003 2:43 a.m.
    Personally, I'm just hanging around for the free oven mitt. I hate to keep harping on this, but after a certain number of posts, don't I qualify to receive some sort of free Rhizome oven mitt? I realize arts funding in the US is on the decline, but surely things aren't so bleak that somebody can't toss me a danged free oven mitt every once in a while (or even, like, *ever*).

    i mean honestly, what's the deal? do i or don't i qualify for the free oven mitt? (a simple yes or no will do.)

    respectfully,
    curt

    ++++++++++++++++++

    marc garrett wrote:

    > There are many who were linked here from europe - loads have vanished.
    > So
    > now discussion is done by only a few on this list. Although, I still
    > beleive
    > that some of it has been pretty interesting and dynamic in places -
    > not as
    > regular as before, or as much. Its more to do with numbers not
    > necessarily
    > the quality. Many people before felt part of something, now they
    > don't. It's
    > all changed - when people feel part of something they are more likely
    > to
    > contribute with quality. It's a natural thing...
    >
    > marc
  • mez breeze | Wed Jun 4th 2003 3:15 a.m.
    At 01:43 AM 4/06/2003 -0400, you wrote:
    >Personally, I'm just hanging around for the free oven mitt. I hate to
    >keep harping on this, but after a certain number of posts, don't I qualify
    >to receive some sort of free Rhizome oven mitt? I realize arts funding in
    >the US is on the decline, but surely things aren't so bleak that somebody
    >can't toss me a danged free oven mitt every once in a while (or even,
    >like, *ever*).
    >
    >i mean honestly, what's the deal? do i or don't i qualify for the free
    >oven mitt? (a simple yes or no will do.)

    i want the rhizomer beanie. my ears r cold.

    >respectfully,
    >curt
    >
    >
    >++++++++++++++++++
    >
    >marc garrett wrote:
    >
    > > There are many who were linked here from europe - loads have vanished.
    > > So
    > > now discussion is done by only a few on this list. Although, I still
    > > beleive
    > > that some of it has been pretty interesting and dynamic in places -
    > > not as
    > > regular as before, or as much. Its more to do with numbers not
    > > necessarily
    > > the quality. Many people before felt part of something, now they
    > > don't. It's
    > > all changed - when people feel part of something they are more likely
    > > to
    > > contribute with quality. It's a natural thing...
    > >
    > > marc
    >+ ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
    >-> post: list@rhizome.org
    >-> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    >+
    >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php

    - pro][rating][.lucid.txt
    -
    -

    http://www.hotkey.net.au/~netwurker
    _
    _men[iscus_heart] plucking via broken bag.gages_
  • Eryk Salvaggio | Wed Jun 4th 2003 3:33 a.m.
    There are Rhizome Laptop Bags, if I recall. And Chris Fahey Mousepads.

    -e.

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "][mez][" <netwurker@hotkey.net.au>
    To: <list@rhizome.org>
    Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 1:52 AM
    Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Re: Re: Fwd: FW: Digital Artists: Call for Entries

    > At 01:43 AM 4/06/2003 -0400, you wrote:
    > >Personally, I'm just hanging around for the free oven mitt. I hate to
    > >keep harping on this, but after a certain number of posts, don't I
    qualify
    > >to receive some sort of free Rhizome oven mitt? I realize arts funding
    in
    > >the US is on the decline, but surely things aren't so bleak that somebody
    > >can't toss me a danged free oven mitt every once in a while (or even,
    > >like, *ever*).
    > >
    > >i mean honestly, what's the deal? do i or don't i qualify for the free
    > >oven mitt? (a simple yes or no will do.)
    >
    >
    >
    > i want the rhizomer beanie. my ears r cold.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >respectfully,
    > >curt
    > >
    > >
    > >++++++++++++++++++
    > >
    > >marc garrett wrote:
    > >
    > > > There are many who were linked here from europe - loads have vanished.
    > > > So
    > > > now discussion is done by only a few on this list. Although, I still
    > > > beleive
    > > > that some of it has been pretty interesting and dynamic in places -
    > > > not as
    > > > regular as before, or as much. Its more to do with numbers not
    > > > necessarily
    > > > the quality. Many people before felt part of something, now they
    > > > don't. It's
    > > > all changed - when people feel part of something they are more likely
    > > > to
    > > > contribute with quality. It's a natural thing...
    > > >
    > > > marc
    > >+ ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
    > >-> post: list@rhizome.org
    > >-> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > >-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > >+
    > >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > >Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
    > - pro][rating][.lucid.txt
    > -
    > -
    >
    > http://www.hotkey.net.au/~netwurker
    > _
    > _men[iscus_heart] plucking via broken bag.gages_
    >
    > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
  • Michael Szpakowski | Wed Jun 4th 2003 5:22 a.m.
    Well Eryk - it seems to me you're using a pretty blunt
    instrument there.
    Did you read the two calls for work? - have a look at
    them.
    My point was a very specific one - should we be happy
    about corporate sponsors actually excluding specific
    content in advance?
    best
    michael

    --- Eryk Salvaggio <eryk@maine.rr.com> wrote:
    >
    > It seems Oro Bourous, Outsider Net.Artist has a
    > following.
    >
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "Michael Szpakowski" <szpako@yahoo.com>
    >
    >
    > > besides the politics and "pornography"
    > > exclusions it seems also to be demanding pieces
    > that
    > > will be light and diverting and not overly tax the
    > > braincells or attention span of the corporate
    > movers
    > > and shakers - digital "art" as corporate
    > > entertainment.
    >
    >
    > "We reject the idea that we should even try to have
    > our work in such a
    > context, because our work should not be enslaved by
    > being seen. And because
    > we feel we could not have our work shown in a system
    > that is so corrupt.
    > Instead, our work exists in real life, and in
    > conversation- we talk about
    > the projects we would make, if only getting a grant
    > was easier. And while we
    > could simply make art in the streets, we reject
    > that, as well, because
    > having our art in the streets with trash and car
    > exhaust is a disservice to
    > our ideas. In this way, our ideas remain untainted
    > by actualization.
    >
    > But if they changed this system of appraising
    > "quality" based on things they
    > did not understand, I might be able to participate
    > in the art world. As it
    > is, I want to make a living off of my art, but I
    > refuse to compromise. And
    > it is the fault of the institutions for not paying
    > money based solely on an
    > artists unwillingness to compromise. That is why I
    > reject the institutions
    > altogether, and why I have dedicated my life to
    > complaints about them."
    >
    > -Oro Bouros, Outsider Net.Artist
    >
    >

    =====
    *DISCLAIMER:This email any advice it contains is for the use is that of the sender and does not bind the precautions to minimise authority in any way. If you copy or distribute this by software viruses email. We have taken the risk of transmitting software viruses, but we advise that you carry out your own virus attachment to this message. Internet email that you observe this lack is not a secure communication medium, and we advise of security when emailing us. District Postmaster. http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/ *

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  • marc garrett | Wed Jun 4th 2003 6:58 a.m.
    Hi Joseph,

    I kind of feel that T.Whid has always been one of the more polite dudes on
    rhizome, not actively attacking someone to make himself feel better. That's
    not his buzz - not like some of the other rhizome dead-heads who used the
    identity of 'Karei' to personally attack users on the list as an in-house
    joke on the list users - kool eh!

    That's why I was surprised...but I am beginning to get the gist that it was
    not personal - I hope.

    Also, when we visited New York recently, T.Whid was one of the least snotty
    and more openly friendly out of most of the rhizome list users that we met
    (other than you good self of course).

    marc

    > May I point out to one and all that the extent of a certain t.whid's
    brilliant critique of our own work consisted almost entirely of the words
    >
    > "crappy work"
    >
    > <applause><applause>
    >
    > Q: What do you get when you cross a hippopotamus and a black hawk?
    > A: A Hippocritic dressed in black.
    >
    > <applause><applause>
    >
    > joseph
    >
    >
    > t.whid wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >
    > > ---- Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com> wrote:
    > > > See, T. - I think you're being just a bit disingenuous
    > > > here.
    > >
    > > how? I've been honest the entire time.
    > >
    > >
    > > > All of the people involved in praising Jess's work
    > > > yesterday have posted rigorous, critical and closely
    > > > argued stuff over the last few months.
    > >
    > > no argument, i was responding specifically to the posts i quoted in
    > > my
    > > original post.
    > >
    > >
    > > > Could it be that your reaction to the posts has more
    > > > to do with the fact that many of those posting have
    > > > either explicitly or implicitly adopted positions on
    > > > this list that are opposed to your idea of what
    > > > constitutes good or serious art.
    > >
    > > no, that could not be.
    > >
    > > > In an offlist mail to me you denied that you had
    > > > accused us of insincerity and yet the only other
    > > > possible reading of your post is that you believe that
    > > > you have some sort of privileged access as to what
    > > > constitutes the worthwhile.
    > >
    > > who's being disingenuous? I only posted that the specific remarks
    > > quoted in the post where not serious art discussion but rather mere
    > > back-slapping. I have no privilege other than being able to read the
    > > english language. I had no doubt that the back-slapping was genuine,
    > > my
    > > critique was with the depth of the praise, not that it wasn't genuine
    > > or deserved.
    > >
    > > > Tell us please, just who *are* the Sunday painters,
    > > > the dilettantes of your post?
    > >
    > > people who aren't on this list. most on this list don't fit into this
    > > category. that was my critique, we are collectively better than
    > > that and i was hoping to raise the level of discussion.
    > >
    > > > If you didn't think Jess's piece was any good then why
    > > > not address *that* rather than impugning the motives
    > > > of those who did?
    > >
    > > this is ridiculous. my opinions regarding Jess' piece have nothing to
    > > do with my post. i didn't want to mix up whatever my reaction to the
    > > piece might be and my criticism of the remarks surrounding it.
    > >
    > > > I'd be more than happy to take part in an extended
    > > > and detailed discussion about the actual artistic
    > > > issues involved.
    > >
    > > that's all fine and good, but my point was to address the level of
    > > critical discussion and i think i'm through with it.
    > >
    > > take care,
    > > <twhid>
    > > http://www.mteww.com
    > > </twhid>
    > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
  • Michael Szpakowski | Wed Jun 4th 2003 8:28 a.m.
    Hi
    I just wanted to add my threepennyworth.
    I often disagree with T Whid but I always read his
    posts. They're informed, intelligent and often funny.
    I was *deeply* unhappy with the tone of his recent
    post and I said so.
    He replied in some detail and as far as I'm concerned
    we've said our pieces on this matter & we simply
    disagree. I've no wish to pursue endless pesonalised
    wrangling - my preference as always is for fierce but
    courteous debate on the issues.
    best
    michael

    --- furtherfield <info@furtherfield.org> wrote:
    > Hi Joseph,
    >
    > I kind of feel that T.Whid has always been one of
    > the more polite dudes on
    > rhizome, not actively attacking someone to make
    > himself feel better. That's
    > not his buzz - not like some of the other rhizome
    > dead-heads who used the
    > identity of 'Karei' to personally attack users on
    > the list as an in-house
    > joke on the list users - kool eh!
    >
    > That's why I was surprised...but I am beginning to
    > get the gist that it was
    > not personal - I hope.
    >
    > Also, when we visited New York recently, T.Whid was
    > one of the least snotty
    > and more openly friendly out of most of the rhizome
    > list users that we met
    > (other than you good self of course).
    >
    > marc
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > May I point out to one and all that the extent of
    > a certain t.whid's
    > brilliant critique of our own work consisted almost
    > entirely of the words
    > >
    > > "crappy work"
    > >
    > > <applause><applause>
    > >
    > > Q: What do you get when you cross a hippopotamus
    > and a black hawk?
    > > A: A Hippocritic dressed in black.
    > >
    > > <applause><applause>
    > >
    > > joseph
    > >
    > >
    > > t.whid wrote:
    > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > ---- Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com>
    > wrote:
    > > > > See, T. - I think you're being just a bit
    > disingenuous
    > > > > here.
    > > >
    > > > how? I've been honest the entire time.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > > All of the people involved in praising Jess's
    > work
    > > > > yesterday have posted rigorous, critical and
    > closely
    > > > > argued stuff over the last few months.
    > > >
    > > > no argument, i was responding specifically to
    > the posts i quoted in
    > > > my
    > > > original post.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > > Could it be that your reaction to the posts
    > has more
    > > > > to do with the fact that many of those posting
    > have
    > > > > either explicitly or implicitly adopted
    > positions on
    > > > > this list that are opposed to your idea of
    > what
    > > > > constitutes good or serious art.
    > > >
    > > > no, that could not be.
    > > >
    > > > > In an offlist mail to me you denied that you
    > had
    > > > > accused us of insincerity and yet the only
    > other
    > > > > possible reading of your post is that you
    > believe that
    > > > > you have some sort of privileged access as to
    > what
    > > > > constitutes the worthwhile.
    > > >
    > > > who's being disingenuous? I only posted that the
    > specific remarks
    > > > quoted in the post where not serious art
    > discussion but rather mere
    > > > back-slapping. I have no privilege other than
    > being able to read the
    > > > english language. I had no doubt that the
    > back-slapping was genuine,
    > > > my
    > > > critique was with the depth of the praise, not
    > that it wasn't genuine
    > > > or deserved.
    > > >
    > > > > Tell us please, just who *are* the Sunday
    > painters,
    > > > > the dilettantes of your post?
    > > >
    > > > people who aren't on this list. most on this
    > list don't fit into this
    > > > category. that was my critique, we are
    > collectively better than
    > > > that and i was hoping to raise the level of
    > discussion.
    > > >
    > > > > If you didn't think Jess's piece was any good
    > then why
    > > > > not address *that* rather than impugning the
    > motives
    > > > > of those who did?
    > > >
    > > > this is ridiculous. my opinions regarding Jess'
    > piece have nothing to
    > > > do with my post. i didn't want to mix up
    > whatever my reaction to the
    > > > piece might be and my criticism of the remarks
    > surrounding it.
    > > >
    > > > > I'd be more than happy to take part in an
    > extended
    > > > > and detailed discussion about the actual
    > artistic
    > > > > issues involved.
    > > >
    > > > that's all fine and good, but my point was to
    > address the level of
    > > > critical discussion and i think i'm through with
    > it.
    > > >
    > > > take care,
    > > > <twhid>
    > > > http://www.mteww.com
    > > > </twhid>
    > > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
    > > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > > +
    > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms
    > set out in the
    > > Membership Agreement available online at
    > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    > >
    >
    >
    >
    > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
    > out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at
    http://rhizome.org/info/29.php

    =====
    *DISCLAIMER:This email any advice it contains is for the use is that of the sender and does not bind the precautions to minimise authority in any way. If you copy or distribute this by software viruses email. We have taken the risk of transmitting software viruses, but we advise that you carry out your own virus attachment to this message. Internet email that you observe this lack is not a secure communication medium, and we advise of security when emailing us. District Postmaster. http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/ *

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  • joseph mcelroy | Wed Jun 4th 2003 8:58 a.m.
    marc garrett wrote:

    > Hi Joseph,
    >
    > I kind of feel that T.Whid has always been one of the more polite
    > dudes on rhizome, not actively attacking someone to make himself feel better.

    To quote t.whid from 4/30/2002 post addressed to me

    "you're tactics are tired and the little work i've seen from you is
    sub-amateur. you're simply a loudmouth with nothing better to do then
    get your panties in a ruffle by a little piece of art my collaborator
    and i made long ago."

    This was in response to a critique of a business plan they presented as art work, which I thought worked as neither...

    "You already have given your idea away, so details are meaningless except to prove that you really have thought out how to make the idea into a reality. Not doing the details reflects a lack of desire to pursue the business opportunity, thus demonstrating that your plan is only intended as an art work and not as an actual business plan. And because it is such a shallow plan, it is also not even true to its purpose as an art work. It is only a sketch of an art work that you never intend to complete, for to complete the work would require a commitment that you are not willing to give."

    He can dish it be he can't take it.

    joseph
  • Ivan Pope | Wed Jun 4th 2003 9:02 a.m.
    Sorry, I just had to go out for some air. It gets a bit claustrophobic in
    here sometimes.
    :-)
    Ivan

    --
    Ivan Pope
    ivan@ivanpope.com
    www.ivanpope.com
    www.tochki-inc.com

    "Faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death"
    Hunter S. Thompson
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Michael Szpakowski" <szpako@yahoo.com>
    To: "furtherfield" <info@furtherfield.org>; "joseph mcelroy"
    <joseph@electrichands.com>; <list@rhizome.org>
    Cc: "t.whid" <twhid@mteww.com>
    Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 12:28 PM
    Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Re: Fwd: FW: Digital Artists: Call for Entries

    > Hi
    > I just wanted to add my threepennyworth.
    > I often disagree with T Whid but I always read his
    > posts. They're informed, intelligent and often funny.
    > I was *deeply* unhappy with the tone of his recent
    > post and I said so.
    > He replied in some detail and as far as I'm concerned
    > we've said our pieces on this matter & we simply
    > disagree. I've no wish to pursue endless pesonalised
    > wrangling - my preference as always is for fierce but
    > courteous debate on the issues.
    > best
    > michael
    >
    > --- furtherfield <info@furtherfield.org> wrote:
    > > Hi Joseph,
    > >
    > > I kind of feel that T.Whid has always been one of
    > > the more polite dudes on
    > > rhizome, not actively attacking someone to make
    > > himself feel better. That's
    > > not his buzz - not like some of the other rhizome
    > > dead-heads who used the
    > > identity of 'Karei' to personally attack users on
    > > the list as an in-house
    > > joke on the list users - kool eh!
    > >
    > > That's why I was surprised...but I am beginning to
    > > get the gist that it was
    > > not personal - I hope.
    > >
    > > Also, when we visited New York recently, T.Whid was
    > > one of the least snotty
    > > and more openly friendly out of most of the rhizome
    > > list users that we met
    > > (other than you good self of course).
    > >
    > > marc
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > > May I point out to one and all that the extent of
    > > a certain t.whid's
    > > brilliant critique of our own work consisted almost
    > > entirely of the words
    > > >
    > > > "crappy work"
    > > >
    > > > <applause><applause>
    > > >
    > > > Q: What do you get when you cross a hippopotamus
    > > and a black hawk?
    > > > A: A Hippocritic dressed in black.
    > > >
    > > > <applause><applause>
    > > >
    > > > joseph
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > t.whid wrote:
    > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > ---- Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com>
    > > wrote:
    > > > > > See, T. - I think you're being just a bit
    > > disingenuous
    > > > > > here.
    > > > >
    > > > > how? I've been honest the entire time.
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > > All of the people involved in praising Jess's
    > > work
    > > > > > yesterday have posted rigorous, critical and
    > > closely
    > > > > > argued stuff over the last few months.
    > > > >
    > > > > no argument, i was responding specifically to
    > > the posts i quoted in
    > > > > my
    > > > > original post.
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > > Could it be that your reaction to the posts
    > > has more
    > > > > > to do with the fact that many of those posting
    > > have
    > > > > > either explicitly or implicitly adopted
    > > positions on
    > > > > > this list that are opposed to your idea of
    > > what
    > > > > > constitutes good or serious art.
    > > > >
    > > > > no, that could not be.
    > > > >
    > > > > > In an offlist mail to me you denied that you
    > > had
    > > > > > accused us of insincerity and yet the only
    > > other
    > > > > > possible reading of your post is that you
    > > believe that
    > > > > > you have some sort of privileged access as to
    > > what
    > > > > > constitutes the worthwhile.
    > > > >
    > > > > who's being disingenuous? I only posted that the
    > > specific remarks
    > > > > quoted in the post where not serious art
    > > discussion but rather mere
    > > > > back-slapping. I have no privilege other than
    > > being able to read the
    > > > > english language. I had no doubt that the
    > > back-slapping was genuine,
    > > > > my
    > > > > critique was with the depth of the praise, not
    > > that it wasn't genuine
    > > > > or deserved.
    > > > >
    > > > > > Tell us please, just who *are* the Sunday
    > > painters,
    > > > > > the dilettantes of your post?
    > > > >
    > > > > people who aren't on this list. most on this
    > > list don't fit into this
    > > > > category. that was my critique, we are
    > > collectively better than
    > > > > that and i was hoping to raise the level of
    > > discussion.
    > > > >
    > > > > > If you didn't think Jess's piece was any good
    > > then why
    > > > > > not address *that* rather than impugning the
    > > motives
    > > > > > of those who did?
    > > > >
    > > > > this is ridiculous. my opinions regarding Jess'
    > > piece have nothing to
    > > > > do with my post. i didn't want to mix up
    > > whatever my reaction to the
    > > > > piece might be and my criticism of the remarks
    > > surrounding it.
    > > > >
    > > > > > I'd be more than happy to take part in an
    > > extended
    > > > > > and detailed discussion about the actual
    > > artistic
    > > > > > issues involved.
    > > > >
    > > > > that's all fine and good, but my point was to
    > > address the level of
    > > > > critical discussion and i think i'm through with
    > > it.
    > > > >
    > > > > take care,
    > > > > <twhid>
    > > > > http://www.mteww.com
    > > > > </twhid>
    > > > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
    > > > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > > > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    > > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > > > +
    > > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms
    > > set out in the
    > > > Membership Agreement available online at
    > > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    > > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
    > > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    > > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > > +
    > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
    > > out in the
    > > Membership Agreement available online at
    > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
    >
    > =====
    > *DISCLAIMER:This email any advice it contains is for the use is that of
    the sender and does not bind the precautions to minimise authority in any
    way. If you copy or distribute this by software viruses email. We have taken
    the risk of transmitting software viruses, but we advise that you carry out
    your own virus attachment to this message. Internet email that you observe
    this lack is not a secure communication medium, and we advise of security
    when emailing us. District Postmaster.
    http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/ *
    >
    > __________________________________
    > Do you Yahoo!?
    > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
    > http://calendar.yahoo.com
    > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
  • joseph mcelroy | Wed Jun 4th 2003 9:05 a.m.
    I'd rather someone call me stupid when they are calling me stupid.
    joseph

    Michael Szpakowski wrote:

    > Hi
    > I just wanted to add my threepennyworth.
    > I often disagree with T Whid but I always read his
    > posts. They're informed, intelligent and often funny.
    > I was *deeply* unhappy with the tone of his recent
    > post and I said so.
    > He replied in some detail and as far as I'm concerned
    > we've said our pieces on this matter & we simply
    > disagree. I've no wish to pursue endless pesonalised
    > wrangling - my preference as always is for fierce but
    > courteous debate on the issues.
    > best
    > michael
    >
    > --- furtherfield <info@furtherfield.org> wrote:
    > > Hi Joseph,
    > >
    > > I kind of feel that T.Whid has always been one of
    > > the more polite dudes on
    > > rhizome, not actively attacking someone to make
    > > himself feel better. That's
    > > not his buzz - not like some of the other rhizome
    > > dead-heads who used the
    > > identity of 'Karei' to personally attack users on
    > > the list as an in-house
    > > joke on the list users - kool eh!
    > >
    > > That's why I was surprised...but I am beginning to
    > > get the gist that it was
    > > not personal - I hope.
    > >
    > > Also, when we visited New York recently, T.Whid was
    > > one of the least snotty
    > > and more openly friendly out of most of the rhizome
    > > list users that we met
    > > (other than you good self of course).
    > >
    > > marc
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > > May I point out to one and all that the extent of
    > > a certain t.whid's
    > > brilliant critique of our own work consisted almost
    > > entirely of the words
    > > >
    > > > "crappy work"
    > > >
    > > > <applause><applause>
    > > >
    > > > Q: What do you get when you cross a hippopotamus
    > > and a black hawk?
    > > > A: A Hippocritic dressed in black.
    > > >
    > > > <applause><applause>
    > > >
    > > > joseph
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > t.whid wrote:
    > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > ---- Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com>
    > > wrote:
    > > > > > See, T. - I think you're being just a bit
    > > disingenuous
    > > > > > here.
    > > > >
    > > > > how? I've been honest the entire time.
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > > All of the people involved in praising Jess's
    > > work
    > > > > > yesterday have posted rigorous, critical and
    > > closely
    > > > > > argued stuff over the last few months.
    > > > >
    > > > > no argument, i was responding specifically to
    > > the posts i quoted in
    > > > > my
    > > > > original post.
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > > Could it be that your reaction to the posts
    > > has more
    > > > > > to do with the fact that many of those posting
    > > have
    > > > > > either explicitly or implicitly adopted
    > > positions on
    > > > > > this list that are opposed to your idea of
    > > what
    > > > > > constitutes good or serious art.
    > > > >
    > > > > no, that could not be.
    > > > >
    > > > > > In an offlist mail to me you denied that you
    > > had
    > > > > > accused us of insincerity and yet the only
    > > other
    > > > > > possible reading of your post is that you
    > > believe that
    > > > > > you have some sort of privileged access as to
    > > what
    > > > > > constitutes the worthwhile.
    > > > >
    > > > > who's being disingenuous? I only posted that the
    > > specific remarks
    > > > > quoted in the post where not serious art
    > > discussion but rather mere
    > > > > back-slapping. I have no privilege other than
    > > being able to read the
    > > > > english language. I had no doubt that the
    > > back-slapping was genuine,
    > > > > my
    > > > > critique was with the depth of the praise, not
    > > that it wasn't genuine
    > > > > or deserved.
    > > > >
    > > > > > Tell us please, just who *are* the Sunday
    > > painters,
    > > > > > the dilettantes of your post?
    > > > >
    > > > > people who aren't on this list. most on this
    > > list don't fit into this
    > > > > category. that was my critique, we are
    > > collectively better than
    > > > > that and i was hoping to raise the level of
    > > discussion.
    > > > >
    > > > > > If you didn't think Jess's piece was any good
    > > then why
    > > > > > not address *that* rather than impugning the
    > > motives
    > > > > > of those who did?
    > > > >
    > > > > this is ridiculous. my opinions regarding Jess'
    > > piece have nothing to
    > > > > do with my post. i didn't want to mix up
    > > whatever my reaction to the
    > > > > piece might be and my criticism of the remarks
    > > surrounding it.
    > > > >
    > > > > > I'd be more than happy to take part in an
    > > extended
    > > > > > and detailed discussion about the actual
    > > artistic
    > > > > > issues involved.
    > > > >
    > > > > that's all fine and good, but my point was to
    > > address the level of
    > > > > critical discussion and i think i'm through with
    > > it.
    > > > >
    > > > > take care,
    > > > > <twhid>
    > > > > http://www.mteww.com
    > > > > </twhid>
    > > > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
    > > > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > > > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    > > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > > > +
    > > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms
    > > set out in the
    > > > Membership Agreement available online at
    > > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
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    > >
    > >
    > >
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    > > +
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    > > out in the
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    > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
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  • marc garrett | Wed Jun 4th 2003 9:06 a.m.
    Hi Joseph,

    That does seem a bit harsh, but from here on I'm having a rest from
    personality arguments, it hurts me.

    Makes me feel uncomfortable & gives me a hollow feeling inside - similar to
    looking at a mug-shot of President Bush.

    marc

    > marc garrett wrote:
    >
    > > Hi Joseph,
    > >
    > > I kind of feel that T.Whid has always been one of the more polite
    > > dudes on rhizome, not actively attacking someone to make himself feel
    better.
    >
    > To quote t.whid from 4/30/2002 post addressed to me
    >
    > "you're tactics are tired and the little work i've seen from you is
    > sub-amateur. you're simply a loudmouth with nothing better to do then
    > get your panties in a ruffle by a little piece of art my collaborator
    > and i made long ago."
    >
    > This was in response to a critique of a business plan they presented as
    art work, which I thought worked as neither...
    >
    > "You already have given your idea away, so details are meaningless except
    to prove that you really have thought out how to make the idea into a
    reality. Not doing the details reflects a lack of desire to pursue the
    business opportunity, thus demonstrating that your plan is only intended as
    an art work and not as an actual business plan. And because it is such a
    shallow plan, it is also not even true to its purpose as an art work. It is
    only a sketch of an art work that you never intend to complete, for to
    complete the work would require a commitment that you are not willing to
    give."
    >
    > He can dish it be he can't take it.
    >
    > joseph
    >
    >
    > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
    >
  • joseph mcelroy | Wed Jun 4th 2003 9:07 a.m.
    marc garrett wrote:

    > not his buzz - not like some of the other rhizome dead-heads who used
    > the
    > identity of 'Karei' to personally attack users on the list as an
    > in-house
    > joke on the list users - kool eh!
    >

    Karei is now on other lists - he seems to have done the cover art for a Halfler Trio CD.

    joseph
  • Ivan Pope | Wed Jun 4th 2003 10:03 a.m.
    > Makes me feel uncomfortable & gives me a hollow feeling inside - similar
    to
    > looking at a mug-shot of President Bush.
    >
    > marc

    This made me smile today.

    The Washington Post reports that in a private meeting Sharon said to Bush:
    'You are a man of peace and security'.
    Bush replied:
    'I know you are a man of security. I want you to work harder on the peace
    part.' Adding, 'I said you were a man of peace. I want you to know I took
    immense crap for that.'

    Almost made me want to hug Bush. I said almost.

    Cheers,
    Ivan
  • marc garrett | Wed Jun 4th 2003 10:24 a.m.
    Hi Ivan,

    What, like hug him until the veins pop out of his head...

    marc

    > > Makes me feel uncomfortable & gives me a hollow feeling inside - similar
    > to
    > > looking at a mug-shot of President Bush.
    > >
    > > marc
    >
    > This made me smile today.
    >
    > The Washington Post reports that in a private meeting Sharon said to Bush:
    > 'You are a man of peace and security'.
    > Bush replied:
    > 'I know you are a man of security. I want you to work harder on the peace
    > part.' Adding, 'I said you were a man of peace. I want you to know I took
    > immense crap for that.'
    >
    > Almost made me want to hug Bush. I said almost.
    >
    > Cheers,
    > Ivan
    >
    > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
    >
  • Eryk Salvaggio | Wed Jun 4th 2003 1:32 p.m.
    And what will we do if we are not happy? Chastise those who may want to
    participate anyway? Or do we assume that our work is superior because it
    might offend some buisiness people? Or do we assume that art is only
    relevant if it offends buisiness people?

    Corporate Sponsors are obviously not going to want to show pornography or
    political work at a buisiness meeting. That's how the world works. Whether
    we're happy with it or not. I'm not participating, but I don't know why we
    have to publically disavow any corporate-sponsored art event. Shouldn't we
    be happy that corporations are bothering with internet art at all? With the
    way the government is going and has been going, corporate sponsorship may be
    the only art patrons we have. Or should we "hold out" until corporations
    insist that pornographic and political art that offends thier own buisiness
    practice should be not only allowed but funded by those corporations whose
    sensibilities are being criticized? "And it is the fault of the institutions
    for not paying money based solely on an artists unwillingness to
    compromise."

    Who should pay for pornographic and political art?

    -e.

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Michael Szpakowski" <szpako@yahoo.com>
    To: "Eryk Salvaggio" <eryk@maine.rr.com>; <list@rhizome.org>
    Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 4:22 AM
    Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Fwd: FW: Digital Artists: Call for Entries

    > Well Eryk - it seems to me you're using a pretty blunt
    > instrument there.
    > Did you read the two calls for work? - have a look at
    > them.
    > My point was a very specific one - should we be happy
    > about corporate sponsors actually excluding specific
    > content in advance?
    > best
    > michael
    >
    >
    > --- Eryk Salvaggio <eryk@maine.rr.com> wrote:
    > >
    > > It seems Oro Bourous, Outsider Net.Artist has a
    > > following.
    > >
    > >
    > > ----- Original Message -----
    > > From: "Michael Szpakowski" <szpako@yahoo.com>
    > >
    > >
    > > > besides the politics and "pornography"
    > > > exclusions it seems also to be demanding pieces
    > > that
    > > > will be light and diverting and not overly tax the
    > > > braincells or attention span of the corporate
    > > movers
    > > > and shakers - digital "art" as corporate
    > > > entertainment.
    > >
    > >
    > > "We reject the idea that we should even try to have
    > > our work in such a
    > > context, because our work should not be enslaved by
    > > being seen. And because
    > > we feel we could not have our work shown in a system
    > > that is so corrupt.
    > > Instead, our work exists in real life, and in
    > > conversation- we talk about
    > > the projects we would make, if only getting a grant
    > > was easier. And while we
    > > could simply make art in the streets, we reject
    > > that, as well, because
    > > having our art in the streets with trash and car
    > > exhaust is a disservice to
    > > our ideas. In this way, our ideas remain untainted
    > > by actualization.
    > >
    > > But if they changed this system of appraising
    > > "quality" based on things they
    > > did not understand, I might be able to participate
    > > in the art world. As it
    > > is, I want to make a living off of my art, but I
    > > refuse to compromise. And
    > > it is the fault of the institutions for not paying
    > > money based solely on an
    > > artists unwillingness to compromise. That is why I
    > > reject the institutions
    > > altogether, and why I have dedicated my life to
    > > complaints about them."
    > >
    > > -Oro Bouros, Outsider Net.Artist
    > >
    > >
    >
    >
    > =====
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  • joseph mcelroy | Wed Jun 4th 2003 2:37 p.m.
    I agree with Eryk on this one. With the legal responsibility that corporations have to shareholders to not diminish the corporate share value, which can happen easily with offending artwork, officers are not in a position to take chances and it would be "unethical" for them to do so. And large institutions placing restrictions on the content of artwork it sponsors is nothing new. Do you think Mike could have painted a bunch of satan worshipers and fornicators on the Sistine (other than showing them go to hell of course;)? Creating worthwhile art within restrictions is a challenge, not an obstacle.

    joseph

    Eryk Salvaggio wrote:

    > And what will we do if we are not happy? Chastise those who may want
    > to
    > participate anyway? Or do we assume that our work is superior because
    > it
    > might offend some buisiness people? Or do we assume that art is only
    > relevant if it offends buisiness people?
    >
    > Corporate Sponsors are obviously not going to want to show pornography
    > or
    > political work at a buisiness meeting. That's how the world works.
    > Whether
    > we're happy with it or not. I'm not participating, but I don't know
    > why we
    > have to publically disavow any corporate-sponsored art event.
    > Shouldn't we
    > be happy that corporations are bothering with internet art at all?
    > With the
    > way the government is going and has been going, corporate sponsorship
    > may be
    > the only art patrons we have. Or should we "hold out" until
    > corporations
    > insist that pornographic and political art that offends thier own
    > buisiness
    > practice should be not only allowed but funded by those corporations
    > whose
    > sensibilities are being criticized? "And it is the fault of the
    > institutions
    > for not paying money based solely on an artists unwillingness to
    > compromise."
    >
    > Who should pay for pornographic and political art?
    >
    > -e.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "Michael Szpakowski" <szpako@yahoo.com>
    > To: "Eryk Salvaggio" <eryk@maine.rr.com>; <list@rhizome.org>
    > Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 4:22 AM
    > Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Fwd: FW: Digital Artists: Call for Entries
    >
    >
    > > Well Eryk - it seems to me you're using a pretty blunt
    > > instrument there.
    > > Did you read the two calls for work? - have a look at
    > > them.
    > > My point was a very specific one - should we be happy
    > > about corporate sponsors actually excluding specific
    > > content in advance?
    > > best
    > > michael
    > >
    > >
    > > --- Eryk Salvaggio <eryk@maine.rr.com> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > It seems Oro Bourous, Outsider Net.Artist has a
    > > > following.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > ----- Original Message -----
    > > > From: "Michael Szpakowski" <szpako@yahoo.com>
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > > besides the politics and "pornography"
    > > > > exclusions it seems also to be demanding pieces
    > > > that
    > > > > will be light and diverting and not overly tax the
    > > > > braincells or attention span of the corporate
    > > > movers
    > > > > and shakers - digital "art" as corporate
    > > > > entertainment.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > "We reject the idea that we should even try to have
    > > > our work in such a
    > > > context, because our work should not be enslaved by
    > > > being seen. And because
    > > > we feel we could not have our work shown in a system
    > > > that is so corrupt.
    > > > Instead, our work exists in real life, and in
    > > > conversation- we talk about
    > > > the projects we would make, if only getting a grant
    > > > was easier. And while we
    > > > could simply make art in the streets, we reject
    > > > that, as well, because
    > > > having our art in the streets with trash and car
    > > > exhaust is a disservice to
    > > > our ideas. In this way, our ideas remain untainted
    > > > by actualization.
    > > >
    > > > But if they changed this system of appraising
    > > > "quality" based on things they
    > > > did not understand, I might be able to participate
    > > > in the art world. As it
    > > > is, I want to make a living off of my art, but I
    > > > refuse to compromise. And
    > > > it is the fault of the institutions for not paying
    > > > money based solely on an
    > > > artists unwillingness to compromise. That is why I
    > > > reject the institutions
    > > > altogether, and why I have dedicated my life to
    > > > complaints about them."
    > > >
    > > > -Oro Bouros, Outsider Net.Artist
    > > >
    > > >
    > >
    > >
    > > =====
    > > *DISCLAIMER:This email any advice it contains is for the use is that
    > of
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    > >
    >
  • Pall Thayer | Wed Jun 4th 2003 3:18 p.m.
    On Mi
  • Michael Szpakowski | Wed Jun 4th 2003 4:27 p.m.
    Hi Eryk (and Joseph ,Pall)
    Well none of the below really
    < And what will we do if we are not happy? Chastise
    those who may want to
    participate anyway? Or do we assume that our work is
    superior because it
    might offend some buisiness people? Or do we assume
    that art is only
    relevant if it offends buisiness people?>
    especially the last which is really a caricature of my
    position.
    Ironically I think one of the criticisms that could be
    levelled about my own work is that it *is* lacking in
    politics ot shock value of any sort ( I'm not saying
    it would be a valid criticism but I can imagine
    someone making it, especially in these fevered times)
    -but its that way because that's what I feel moved to
    make, not because someone tells me to.
    Neither do I want to defend actual pornography.
    ( I fact I suspect that "pornographic art" is a
    contradiction in terms)
    It's just that even a cursory glance at the history of
    art will show that "pornography" has been used over
    and over again as a code word to attack the new and
    challenging.
    Furthermore I have no problem with taking the
    corporate or state shilling under many circumstances .
    Quite recently in fact I accepted a sum from a
    foundation run by an East London property developer
    with whom I imagine I would see eye to eye about very
    little but who significantly makes no limitations
    whatsoever upon what I am going to make with the
    money.
    *Nor* am I particulalrly opposed to the notion of
    restriction or commission, if it's honestly stated.
    I'm not religious so I always make it abundantly clear
    that I will not accept work with a religious flavour
    but I don't attack the right of the church or any
    other body to commission work with specifically
    religious intentions.
    Even the vanity portrait has created great work.
    No, my beef with this call is very specific,
    which is why the deploymnet of oro bouros felt more
    like a bludgeon than a clinical dissection.
    The call purports to be about digital art in general,
    the restrictions are added as an afterthought.
    I find it's tenor completely dishonest - I don't even
    think it's a call for artwork - it's a call for
    circuses to amuse the assembled dignitaries.
    The honest thing to do would be to say " corporate
    entertainment required" - for me art means something
    more than this.
    And I do , forgive me, find it offensive that this is
    the one, the call says, where we might actually make
    some money, especially in light of the current
    cutbacks in arts and education funding ( and the
    concomitant dismissal of figures associated with new
    media art.)
    There is a history of wealthy and discerning people (
    and the wealthy are often very discerning because they
    have more time to cultivate that discernment -this is
    a fact) commissioning great art; anyone who denies
    that in capitalist society art is tied up with the
    market is naive or foolish, an oro bouros, but this
    call represents something completely different.
    I do think its legitimate to raise on this list,
    which is after all a discussion list about art and
    often about the society in which it is made, what I
    believe to be the dishonesty at the heart of this call
    and it's rather worrying implications in times like
    these when many freedoms are under attack.
    best
    michael

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  • Lewis LaCook | Thu Jun 5th 2003 1:28 p.m.
    hey, i'm not snotty---i blow my nose on a regular basis...;-}

    bliss
    l

    marc garrett wrote:

    > Hi Joseph,
    >
    > I kind of feel that T.Whid has always been one of the more polite
    > dudes on
    > rhizome, not actively attacking someone to make himself feel better.
    > That's
    > not his buzz - not like some of the other rhizome dead-heads who used
    > the
    > identity of 'Karei' to personally attack users on the list as an
    > in-house
    > joke on the list users - kool eh!
    >
    > That's why I was surprised...but I am beginning to get the gist that
    > it was
    > not personal - I hope.
    >
    > Also, when we visited New York recently, T.Whid was one of the least
    > snotty
    > and more openly friendly out of most of the rhizome list users that we
    > met
    > (other than you good self of course).
    >
    > marc
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > May I point out to one and all that the extent of a certain t.whid's
    > brilliant critique of our own work consisted almost entirely of the
    > words
    > >
    > > "crappy work"
    > >
    > > <applause><applause>
    > >
    > > Q: What do you get when you cross a hippopotamus and a black hawk?
    > > A: A Hippocritic dressed in black.
    > >
    > > <applause><applause>
    > >
    > > joseph
    > >
    > >
    > > t.whid wrote:
    > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > ---- Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com> wrote:
    > > > > See, T. - I think you're being just a bit disingenuous
    > > > > here.
    > > >
    > > > how? I've been honest the entire time.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > > All of the people involved in praising Jess's work
    > > > > yesterday have posted rigorous, critical and closely
    > > > > argued stuff over the last few months.
    > > >
    > > > no argument, i was responding specifically to the posts i quoted
    > in
    > > > my
    > > > original post.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > > Could it be that your reaction to the posts has more
    > > > > to do with the fact that many of those posting have
    > > > > either explicitly or implicitly adopted positions on
    > > > > this list that are opposed to your idea of what
    > > > > constitutes good or serious art.
    > > >
    > > > no, that could not be.
    > > >
    > > > > In an offlist mail to me you denied that you had
    > > > > accused us of insincerity and yet the only other
    > > > > possible reading of your post is that you believe that
    > > > > you have some sort of privileged access as to what
    > > > > constitutes the worthwhile.
    > > >
    > > > who's being disingenuous? I only posted that the specific remarks
    > > > quoted in the post where not serious art discussion but rather
    > mere
    > > > back-slapping. I have no privilege other than being able to read
    > the
    > > > english language. I had no doubt that the back-slapping was
    > genuine,
    > > > my
    > > > critique was with the depth of the praise, not that it wasn't
    > genuine
    > > > or deserved.
    > > >
    > > > > Tell us please, just who *are* the Sunday painters,
    > > > > the dilettantes of your post?
    > > >
    > > > people who aren't on this list. most on this list don't fit into
    > this
    > > > category. that was my critique, we are collectively better than
    > > > that and i was hoping to raise the level of discussion.
    > > >
    > > > > If you didn't think Jess's piece was any good then why
    > > > > not address *that* rather than impugning the motives
    > > > > of those who did?
    > > >
    > > > this is ridiculous. my opinions regarding Jess' piece have nothing
    > to
    > > > do with my post. i didn't want to mix up whatever my reaction to
    > the
    > > > piece might be and my criticism of the remarks surrounding it.
    > > >
    > > > > I'd be more than happy to take part in an extended
    > > > > and detailed discussion about the actual artistic
    > > > > issues involved.
    > > >
    > > > that's all fine and good, but my point was to address the level of
    > > > critical discussion and i think i'm through with it.
    > > >
    > > > take care,
    > > > <twhid>
    > > > http://www.mteww.com
    > > > </twhid>
    > > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
    > > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > > +
    > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > > Membership Agreement available online at
    > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    > >
    >
    >
    >
  • Christopher Fahey | Fri Jun 6th 2003 3:23 a.m.
    > There are Rhizome Laptop Bags, if I recall. And Chris Fahey Mousepads.

    I want one of those! Um, I actually have the Alex Galloway Mousepad.

    -Cf

    [christopher eli fahey]
    art: http://www.graphpaper.com
    sci: http://www.askrom.com
    biz: http://www.behaviordesign.com
  • Eryk Salvaggio | Fri Jun 6th 2003 3:39 a.m.
    Am I right that there is some sort of askROM merch you can get through
    rhizome? If not I apologize...

    -e.

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Christopher Fahey [askrom]" <askROM@graphpaper.com>
    To: <list@rhizome.org>
    Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 2:25 AM
    Subject: RE: RHIZOME_RAW: Re: Re: Fwd: FW: Digital Artists: Call for Entries

    > > There are Rhizome Laptop Bags, if I recall. And Chris Fahey Mousepads.
    >
    > I want one of those! Um, I actually have the Alex Galloway Mousepad.
    >
    > -Cf
    >
    > [christopher eli fahey]
    > art: http://www.graphpaper.com
    > sci: http://www.askrom.com
    > biz: http://www.behaviordesign.com
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
  • Christopher Fahey | Fri Jun 6th 2003 8:43 p.m.
    > Am I right that there is some sort of askROM merch you can get
    > through rhizome? If not I apologize...

    If so, I've never seen any (nor any royalties). Conspiracy theories.
    Can't shake em!

    http://www.graphpaper.com/stuff/photos/rom_limo.jpg

    -Cf

    [christopher eli fahey]
    art: http://www.graphpaper.com
    sci: http://www.askrom.com
    biz: http://www.behaviordesign.com
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