Charity CD Project

Posted by Lee Wells | Mon Nov 4th 2002 1 a.m.

Hello all

Should we decide upon a theme?
What are the primary social topics discussed on Rhizome?
First thing to come to mind for me was, kNOwwWARe.
All just a play on words, sounds, images.
I think it should make people laugh. People need to laugh more.
How can we make this more of a collaboration that a group of individuals
from Rhizome making a compilation CD?

Help me out here
Cheers
Lee

on 11/4/02 1:57 PM, Max Herman at maxnmherman@hotmail.com wrote:

>
>
> This is going to have to wait for me till Jan 03. I'll be off neternet
> stuff till then.
>
>
>
>
>> From: joseph@electrichands.com
>> To: Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>
>> CC: Max Herman <maxnmherman@hotmail.com>, mt@rhizome.org,list@rhizome.org
>> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
>> Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 02:52:32 +0000
>>
>> Ok lets get it organized.
>>
>> Max, you curate the CD show.
>> Lee, you promote the show
>> I will get the first 100 CDs mastered and printed.
>>
>> We sell it for $50 bucks a peice.
>>
>> I cover my costs and Rhizome should net around $4500
>>
>> Ready 2 go?
>>
>> joseph
>>
>>
>> Quoting Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>:
>>
>>> I donate art to Rhizome, music, images, etc. The CD Idea is preaty good
>> and
>>> has worked for other nonprofit org like, Lumpen Magazine in Chicago.
>>> http://www.lumpen.com/
>>>
>>> on 10/25/02 2:12 AM, Max Herman at maxnmherman@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, I was thinking a big fatty music CD, all proceeds to Rhizome,
>> I'd
>>>> donate a song'r two.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> From: joseph@electrichands.com
>>>>> Reply-To: joseph@electrichands.com
>>>>> To: Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>
>>>>> CC: list@rhizome.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
>>>>> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 05:45:52 +0000
>>>>>
>>>>> Its time to talk about industry mergers. Forget the membership fees,
>> very
>>>>> few
>>>>> will pay. If you are about to fold, either fold, or start a capital
>>>>> campaign
>>>>> to raise 7 figures. Fold or Bold.
>>>>>
>>>>> joseph
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Quoting Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Rhizomers:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am hoping to start a discussion here on Raw about Rhizome's
>> financial
>>>>>> situation and a possible solution. This email is rather long, but
>> I'd
>>>>>> appreciate it if you'd take the time to read it through, give it
>> some
>>>>>> thought, and let me know what you think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First, some background information. It will cost about $400,000 to
>>>>> operate
>>>>>> Rhizome.org this year. Here's how we spend it: $6,000 on
>> administrative
>>>>>> fees (mostly processing credit card gifts); $122,000 on operating
>>>>> expenses
>>>>>> (phone, rent, web hosting, office supplies, etc.); $177,000 on
>> payroll
>>>>>> costs (salaries, health insurance, payroll taxes, etc.); $93,000 on
>>>>>> professional fees (writers, commissions, consultants, etc.). These
>>>>> numbers
>>>>>> may seem high to some of you, but we actually run a very lean,
>> efficient
>>>>>> operation. It simply costs a lot of money to run a nonprofit
>>>>> organization
>>>>>> that offers as many programs to as many people as we do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the past, most of our revenue has come from foundations, but
>>>>> foundation
>>>>>> support is shrinking. We had hoped to make up the difference through
>>>>> earned
>>>>>> income from web hosting and online education, but those services are
>>>>>> getting off to a slow start. We have also, as you surely know, tried
>>>>> asking
>>>>>> for voluntary contributions. But so far this year only about 1% of
>> our
>>>>>> 19,000 members have made gifts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Rhizome Board of Directors met for its quarterly meeting last
>>>>> Friday.
>>>>>> The main topic was how to solve our financial problems. I proposed
>>>>> putting
>>>>>> the organization into hibernation mode. This would entail shutting
>> down
>>>>> the
>>>>>> office, laying off the staff and discontinuing most of our programs.
>> We
>>>>>> would keep the web site up, ask the SuperUsers to continue to
>> publish
>>>>>> texts, and keep Raw online. But everything else would stop: no more
>>>>> Digest
>>>>>> or Net Art News, no more commissions, no more events. We'd stop
>> adding
>>>>> new
>>>>>> projects to the ArtBase, stop improving the web site (we have a long
>>>>> list
>>>>>> of bugs to fix and features to add) and stop planning new programs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Board felt that hibernation would be a big mistake. Once we went
>>>>> into
>>>>>> hibernation, they argued, it would be very hard to re-emerge and
>> rebuild
>>>>>> momentum. Foundations would lose confidence in us (not to mention
>> the
>>>>> fact
>>>>>> that we wouldn't have anyone to write the grants). Most important,
>> our
>>>>>> ability to fulfill our mission would be compromised.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then someone suggested charging a membership fee. This idea has been
>>>>>> proposed before, and I have always opposed it. Rhizome is for
>> everyone,
>>>>> I
>>>>>> argued, not just for those who can afford it. I argued that we'd
>> lose
>>>>>> thousands of members and that our community would become less
>> diverse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then we looked at the numbers. The gap between our expenses and what
>> we
>>>>> can
>>>>>> raise from foundations, the government, earned income and other
>> sources
>>>>> is
>>>>>> about $100,000. That's about $5 per member. If every member gave $5,
>>>>>> Rhizome would be financially stable. We could continue to grow and
>> serve
>>>>>> the community.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The board argued that we pay to subscribe to magazines, to enter
>> museums
>>>>>> and to see performances. We pay to attend festivals and conferences.
>> Why
>>>>>> shouldn't we pay for Rhizome? Because it's online?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Consider this hypothetical scenario. Let's say we introduced a
>>>>>> sliding-scale membership fee starting at $11 per year with "thank
>> you
>>>>>> gifts" (T-shirts, etc.) at higher levels. By paying $11 a year (or
>> more
>>>>> if
>>>>>> you could afford it), you get access to everything: Raw, Rare,
>> Digest,
>>>>> Net
>>>>>> Art News, the Calendar, Opportunity Listings, ArtBase, Commissions,
>> etc.
>>>>>> Maybe we'd keep Raw free. Maybe we'd give new memebers a free trial
>>>>> period
>>>>>> so they could check out the goods before they have to pay.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Would you pay the fee?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do you think about the idea of a sliding-scale membership fee
>> for
>>>>>> Rhizome.org? Good idea? Bad idea?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you think it would be better to go into hibernation?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am eagerly awaiting your responses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>
>>>>>> + new media rugby
>>>>>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
>>>>>> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
>>>>>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>>>>>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>>>>>> +
>>>>>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>>>>>> Membership Agreement available online at
>> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>>>>> + new media rugby
>>>>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
>>>>> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
>>>>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>>>>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>>>>> +
>>>>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>>>>> Membership Agreement available online at
>> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>> Get faster connections
  • Lee Wells | Mon Nov 4th 2002 1 a.m.
    Thank Eileen and yes please start thinking about what you would want to
    submit.

    I like the idea of having a photo gallery on the disk. Consumers of the
    project could order limited edition signed prints offered exclusively
    through the cd/website. A portion of the proceeds to yet be defined would be
    also donated to Rhizome. Perhaps someone out there has a great contact at a
    print house that could manage the project editions at cost or better yet
    free as a donation to Rhizome. This concept has the ability of snowballing
    possible additional funds for the organization.

    Again seeing how this is a collaboration I'd like to hear from some others
    to see what they are thinking.

    Let keep in touch
    Cheers
    Lee

    on 11/4/02 8:24 PM, eileen at ejmatl@mindspring.com wrote:

    > Hi. 'Never post to the board - but I've been an active "member" since,
    > nearly, Rhizome became alive. In fact, I utilize Rhizome as a teaching tool
    > in my design, authoring and photography classes. And, I do my best to get
    > every artist I encounter to, at least, visit your site. With that said...
    >
    > It would be my pleasure to donate a piece of digital art to Rhizome for
    > utilization in connection with the fundraising CD. 'Don't know that you'd
    > want to utilize it as a "stand alone" piece (I'm a still photographic
    > artist) - but in the event you did not, I wouldn't mind your forwarding it
    > along to someone else to "expound" upon it. (Collaboration is something I
    > believe strongly in.) It'd be your choice.
    >
    > Thank you for Rhizome. It's an instrumental teaching tool - and one hell of
    > a great playground.
    >
    > eileen (in unseasonably sunny British Columbia)
    > photographic artist
    > professor of digital arts
    > all around fan
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: owner-list@rhizome.org [mailto:owner-list@rhizome.org]On Behalf Of
    > Lee Wells
    > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 4:54 PM
    > To: Max Herman; joseph@electrichands.com
    > Cc: mt@rhizome.org; list@rhizome.org; szpako@yahoo.com
    > Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: Charity CD Project
    >
    >
    > Hello all
    >
    > Should we decide upon a theme?
    > What are the primary social topics discussed on Rhizome?
    > First thing to come to mind for me was, kNOwwWARe.
    > All just a play on words, sounds, images.
    > I think it should make people laugh. People need to laugh more.
    > How can we make this more of a collaboration that a group of individuals
    > from Rhizome making a compilation CD?
    >
    > Help me out here
    > Cheers
    > Lee
    >
    >
    > on 11/4/02 1:57 PM, Max Herman at maxnmherman@hotmail.com wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>
    >> This is going to have to wait for me till Jan 03. I'll be off neternet
    >> stuff till then.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>> From: joseph@electrichands.com
    >>> To: Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>
    >>> CC: Max Herman <maxnmherman@hotmail.com>, mt@rhizome.org,list@rhizome.org
    >>> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
    >>> Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 02:52:32 +0000
    >>>
    >>> Ok lets get it organized.
    >>>
    >>> Max, you curate the CD show.
    >>> Lee, you promote the show
    >>> I will get the first 100 CDs mastered and printed.
    >>>
    >>> We sell it for $50 bucks a peice.
    >>>
    >>> I cover my costs and Rhizome should net around $4500
    >>>
    >>> Ready 2 go?
    >>>
    >>> joseph
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Quoting Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>:
    >>>
    >>>> I donate art to Rhizome, music, images, etc. The CD Idea is preaty good
    >>> and
    >>>> has worked for other nonprofit org like, Lumpen Magazine in Chicago.
    >>>> http://www.lumpen.com/
    >>>>
    >>>> on 10/25/02 2:12 AM, Max Herman at maxnmherman@hotmail.com wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Yeah, I was thinking a big fatty music CD, all proceeds to Rhizome,
    >>> I'd
    >>>>> donate a song'r two.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> From: joseph@electrichands.com
    >>>>>> Reply-To: joseph@electrichands.com
    >>>>>> To: Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>
    >>>>>> CC: list@rhizome.org
    >>>>>> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
    >>>>>> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 05:45:52 +0000
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Its time to talk about industry mergers. Forget the membership fees,
    >>> very
    >>>>>> few
    >>>>>> will pay. If you are about to fold, either fold, or start a capital
    >>>>>> campaign
    >>>>>> to raise 7 figures. Fold or Bold.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> joseph
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Quoting Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Hi Rhizomers:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> I am hoping to start a discussion here on Raw about Rhizome's
    >>> financial
    >>>>>>> situation and a possible solution. This email is rather long, but
    >>> I'd
    >>>>>>> appreciate it if you'd take the time to read it through, give it
    >>> some
    >>>>>>> thought, and let me know what you think.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> First, some background information. It will cost about $400,000 to
    >>>>>> operate
    >>>>>>> Rhizome.org this year. Here's how we spend it: $6,000 on
    >>> administrative
    >>>>>>> fees (mostly processing credit card gifts); $122,000 on operating
    >>>>>> expenses
    >>>>>>> (phone, rent, web hosting, office supplies, etc.); $177,000 on
    >>> payroll
    >>>>>>> costs (salaries, health insurance, payroll taxes, etc.); $93,000 on
    >>>>>>> professional fees (writers, commissions, consultants, etc.). These
    >>>>>> numbers
    >>>>>>> may seem high to some of you, but we actually run a very lean,
    >>> efficient
    >>>>>>> operation. It simply costs a lot of money to run a nonprofit
    >>>>>> organization
    >>>>>>> that offers as many programs to as many people as we do.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> In the past, most of our revenue has come from foundations, but
    >>>>>> foundation
    >>>>>>> support is shrinking. We had hoped to make up the difference through
    >>>>>> earned
    >>>>>>> income from web hosting and online education, but those services are
    >>>>>>> getting off to a slow start. We have also, as you surely know, tried
    >>>>>> asking
    >>>>>>> for voluntary contributions. But so far this year only about 1% of
    >>> our
    >>>>>>> 19,000 members have made gifts.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> The Rhizome Board of Directors met for its quarterly meeting last
    >>>>>> Friday.
    >>>>>>> The main topic was how to solve our financial problems. I proposed
    >>>>>> putting
    >>>>>>> the organization into hibernation mode. This would entail shutting
    >>> down
    >>>>>> the
    >>>>>>> office, laying off the staff and discontinuing most of our programs.
    >>> We
    >>>>>>> would keep the web site up, ask the SuperUsers to continue to
    >>> publish
    >>>>>>> texts, and keep Raw online. But everything else would stop: no more
    >>>>>> Digest
    >>>>>>> or Net Art News, no more commissions, no more events. We'd stop
    >>> adding
    >>>>>> new
    >>>>>>> projects to the ArtBase, stop improving the web site (we have a long
    >>>>>> list
    >>>>>>> of bugs to fix and features to add) and stop planning new programs.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> The Board felt that hibernation would be a big mistake. Once we went
    >>>>>> into
    >>>>>>> hibernation, they argued, it would be very hard to re-emerge and
    >>> rebuild
    >>>>>>> momentum. Foundations would lose confidence in us (not to mention
    >>> the
    >>>>>> fact
    >>>>>>> that we wouldn't have anyone to write the grants). Most important,
    >>> our
    >>>>>>> ability to fulfill our mission would be compromised.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Then someone suggested charging a membership fee. This idea has been
    >>>>>>> proposed before, and I have always opposed it. Rhizome is for
    >>> everyone,
    >>>>>> I
    >>>>>>> argued, not just for those who can afford it. I argued that we'd
    >>> lose
    >>>>>>> thousands of members and that our community would become less
    >>> diverse.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Then we looked at the numbers. The gap between our expenses and what
    >>> we
    >>>>>> can
    >>>>>>> raise from foundations, the government, earned income and other
    >>> sources
    >>>>>> is
    >>>>>>> about $100,000. That's about $5 per member. If every member gave $5,
    >>>>>>> Rhizome would be financially stable. We could continue to grow and
    >>> serve
    >>>>>>> the community.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> The board argued that we pay to subscribe to magazines, to enter
    >>> museums
    >>>>>>> and to see performances. We pay to attend festivals and conferences.
    >>> Why
    >>>>>>> shouldn't we pay for Rhizome? Because it's online?
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Consider this hypothetical scenario. Let's say we introduced a
    >>>>>>> sliding-scale membership fee starting at $11 per year with "thank
    >>> you
    >>>>>>> gifts" (T-shirts, etc.) at higher levels. By paying $11 a year (or
    >>> more
    >>>>>> if
    >>>>>>> you could afford it), you get access to everything: Raw, Rare,
    >>> Digest,
    >>>>>> Net
    >>>>>>> Art News, the Calendar, Opportunity Listings, ArtBase, Commissions,
    >>> etc.
    >>>>>>> Maybe we'd keep Raw free. Maybe we'd give new memebers a free trial
    >>>>>> period
    >>>>>>> so they could check out the goods before they have to pay.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Would you pay the fee?
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> What do you think about the idea of a sliding-scale membership fee
    >>> for
    >>>>>>> Rhizome.org? Good idea? Bad idea?
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Do you think it would be better to go into hibernation?
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> I am eagerly awaiting your responses.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Sincerely,
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Mark
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> + new media rugby
    >>>>>>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >>>>>>> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >>>>>>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    >>> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    >>>>>>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    >>>>>>> +
    >>>>>>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >>>>>>> Membership Agreement available online at
    >>> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >>>>>> + new media rugby
    >>>>>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >>>>>> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >>>>>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    >>> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    >>>>>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    >>>>>> +
    >>>>>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >>>>>> Membership Agreement available online at
    >>> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> _________________________________________________________________
    >>>>> Get faster connections
  • joseph mcelroy | Mon Nov 4th 2002 1 a.m.
    How about each peice use as input, output from another piece on the CD?

    joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
    frank + lyn - mc + El + roy

    go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
    call me 646 279 2309

    Quoting Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>:

    > Hello all
    >
    > Should we decide upon a theme?
    > What are the primary social topics discussed on Rhizome?
    > First thing to come to mind for me was, kNOwwWARe.
    > All just a play on words, sounds, images.
    > I think it should make people laugh. People need to laugh more.
    > How can we make this more of a collaboration that a group of individuals
    > from Rhizome making a compilation CD?
    >
    > Help me out here
    > Cheers
    > Lee
    >
    >
    > on 11/4/02 1:57 PM, Max Herman at maxnmherman@hotmail.com wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >
    > > This is going to have to wait for me till Jan 03. I'll be off neternet
    > > stuff till then.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >> From: joseph@electrichands.com
    > >> To: Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>
    > >> CC: Max Herman <maxnmherman@hotmail.com>, mt@rhizome.org,list@rhizome.org
    > >> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
    > >> Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 02:52:32 +0000
    > >>
    > >> Ok lets get it organized.
    > >>
    > >> Max, you curate the CD show.
    > >> Lee, you promote the show
    > >> I will get the first 100 CDs mastered and printed.
    > >>
    > >> We sell it for $50 bucks a peice.
    > >>
    > >> I cover my costs and Rhizome should net around $4500
    > >>
    > >> Ready 2 go?
    > >>
    > >> joseph
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> Quoting Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>:
    > >>
    > >>> I donate art to Rhizome, music, images, etc. The CD Idea is preaty good
    > >> and
    > >>> has worked for other nonprofit org like, Lumpen Magazine in Chicago.
    > >>> http://www.lumpen.com/
    > >>>
    > >>> on 10/25/02 2:12 AM, Max Herman at maxnmherman@hotmail.com wrote:
    > >>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Yeah, I was thinking a big fatty music CD, all proceeds to Rhizome,
    > >> I'd
    > >>>> donate a song'r two.
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>> From: joseph@electrichands.com
    > >>>>> Reply-To: joseph@electrichands.com
    > >>>>> To: Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>
    > >>>>> CC: list@rhizome.org
    > >>>>> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
    > >>>>> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 05:45:52 +0000
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> Its time to talk about industry mergers. Forget the membership fees,
    > >> very
    > >>>>> few
    > >>>>> will pay. If you are about to fold, either fold, or start a capital
    > >>>>> campaign
    > >>>>> to raise 7 figures. Fold or Bold.
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> joseph
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> Quoting Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>:
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>>> Hi Rhizomers:
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> I am hoping to start a discussion here on Raw about Rhizome's
    > >> financial
    > >>>>>> situation and a possible solution. This email is rather long, but
    > >> I'd
    > >>>>>> appreciate it if you'd take the time to read it through, give it
    > >> some
    > >>>>>> thought, and let me know what you think.
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> First, some background information. It will cost about $400,000 to
    > >>>>> operate
    > >>>>>> Rhizome.org this year. Here's how we spend it: $6,000 on
    > >> administrative
    > >>>>>> fees (mostly processing credit card gifts); $122,000 on operating
    > >>>>> expenses
    > >>>>>> (phone, rent, web hosting, office supplies, etc.); $177,000 on
    > >> payroll
    > >>>>>> costs (salaries, health insurance, payroll taxes, etc.); $93,000 on
    > >>>>>> professional fees (writers, commissions, consultants, etc.). These
    > >>>>> numbers
    > >>>>>> may seem high to some of you, but we actually run a very lean,
    > >> efficient
    > >>>>>> operation. It simply costs a lot of money to run a nonprofit
    > >>>>> organization
    > >>>>>> that offers as many programs to as many people as we do.
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> In the past, most of our revenue has come from foundations, but
    > >>>>> foundation
    > >>>>>> support is shrinking. We had hoped to make up the difference through
    > >>>>> earned
    > >>>>>> income from web hosting and online education, but those services are
    > >>>>>> getting off to a slow start. We have also, as you surely know, tried
    > >>>>> asking
    > >>>>>> for voluntary contributions. But so far this year only about 1% of
    > >> our
    > >>>>>> 19,000 members have made gifts.
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> The Rhizome Board of Directors met for its quarterly meeting last
    > >>>>> Friday.
    > >>>>>> The main topic was how to solve our financial problems. I proposed
    > >>>>> putting
    > >>>>>> the organization into hibernation mode. This would entail shutting
    > >> down
    > >>>>> the
    > >>>>>> office, laying off the staff and discontinuing most of our programs.
    > >> We
    > >>>>>> would keep the web site up, ask the SuperUsers to continue to
    > >> publish
    > >>>>>> texts, and keep Raw online. But everything else would stop: no more
    > >>>>> Digest
    > >>>>>> or Net Art News, no more commissions, no more events. We'd stop
    > >> adding
    > >>>>> new
    > >>>>>> projects to the ArtBase, stop improving the web site (we have a long
    > >>>>> list
    > >>>>>> of bugs to fix and features to add) and stop planning new programs.
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> The Board felt that hibernation would be a big mistake. Once we went
    > >>>>> into
    > >>>>>> hibernation, they argued, it would be very hard to re-emerge and
    > >> rebuild
    > >>>>>> momentum. Foundations would lose confidence in us (not to mention
    > >> the
    > >>>>> fact
    > >>>>>> that we wouldn't have anyone to write the grants). Most important,
    > >> our
    > >>>>>> ability to fulfill our mission would be compromised.
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> Then someone suggested charging a membership fee. This idea has been
    > >>>>>> proposed before, and I have always opposed it. Rhizome is for
    > >> everyone,
    > >>>>> I
    > >>>>>> argued, not just for those who can afford it. I argued that we'd
    > >> lose
    > >>>>>> thousands of members and that our community would become less
    > >> diverse.
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> Then we looked at the numbers. The gap between our expenses and what
    > >> we
    > >>>>> can
    > >>>>>> raise from foundations, the government, earned income and other
    > >> sources
    > >>>>> is
    > >>>>>> about $100,000. That's about $5 per member. If every member gave $5,
    > >>>>>> Rhizome would be financially stable. We could continue to grow and
    > >> serve
    > >>>>>> the community.
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> The board argued that we pay to subscribe to magazines, to enter
    > >> museums
    > >>>>>> and to see performances. We pay to attend festivals and conferences.
    > >> Why
    > >>>>>> shouldn't we pay for Rhizome? Because it's online?
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> Consider this hypothetical scenario. Let's say we introduced a
    > >>>>>> sliding-scale membership fee starting at $11 per year with "thank
    > >> you
    > >>>>>> gifts" (T-shirts, etc.) at higher levels. By paying $11 a year (or
    > >> more
    > >>>>> if
    > >>>>>> you could afford it), you get access to everything: Raw, Rare,
    > >> Digest,
    > >>>>> Net
    > >>>>>> Art News, the Calendar, Opportunity Listings, ArtBase, Commissions,
    > >> etc.
    > >>>>>> Maybe we'd keep Raw free. Maybe we'd give new memebers a free trial
    > >>>>> period
    > >>>>>> so they could check out the goods before they have to pay.
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> Would you pay the fee?
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> What do you think about the idea of a sliding-scale membership fee
    > >> for
    > >>>>>> Rhizome.org? Good idea? Bad idea?
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> Do you think it would be better to go into hibernation?
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> I am eagerly awaiting your responses.
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> Sincerely,
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> Mark
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> + new media rugby
    > >>>>>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > >>>>>> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > >>>>>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    > >> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > >>>>>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > >>>>>> +
    > >>>>>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > >>>>>> Membership Agreement available online at
    > >> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    > >>>>> + new media rugby
    > >>>>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > >>>>> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > >>>>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    > >> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > >>>>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > >>>>> +
    > >>>>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > >>>>> Membership Agreement available online at
    > >> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>> _________________________________________________________________
    > >>>> Get faster connections
  • Michael Szpakowski | Tue Nov 5th 2002 1 a.m.
    <How about each peice use as input, output from
    another piece on the CD? >
    I think this is a great idea -we are talking artowrks
    rather that audio CD here right?
    Why not an immediate call for participants on the
    list.
    (maybe with specific mails to people it would be good
    to target)
    Then someone ( lee, joseph?) decides an order of play.
    It's made clear that these things need to be made to a
    shortish deadline
    The first work is created and mailed or a link is sent
    to the next artist, and so on.
    The disadvantage here is that even if each artists
    make a piece in a week we're still talking 20 weeks
    so....
    ...to make it quicker I suggest the original work is
    mailed to two artists and so on - or even maybe the
    'order of play' could be Rhizome like.
    The thing i really like about this format is that it
    feels very collective- it would also be great to have
    artists who have engaged in fairly fierce polemic on
    the list united in common cause -how about Grancher
    remixes Cloninger or vice versa &c.( maybe this is a
    bit unlikely but you get the point!)
    anyway thats my two penny worth.
    best
    michael

    >
    >
    > joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
    > frank + lyn - mc + El + roy
    >
    > go shopping ->
    > http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
    > call me 646 279 2309
    >
    >
    >
    > Quoting Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>:
    >
    > > Hello all
    > >
    > > Should we decide upon a theme?
    > > What are the primary social topics discussed on
    > Rhizome?
    > > First thing to come to mind for me was, kNOwwWARe.
    > > All just a play on words, sounds, images.
    > > I think it should make people laugh. People need
    > to laugh more.
    > > How can we make this more of a collaboration that
    > a group of individuals
    > > from Rhizome making a compilation CD?
    > >
    > > Help me out here
    > > Cheers
    > > Lee
    > >
    > >
    > > on 11/4/02 1:57 PM, Max Herman at
    > maxnmherman@hotmail.com wrote:
    > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > This is going to have to wait for me till Jan
    > 03. I'll be off neternet
    > > > stuff till then.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >> From: joseph@electrichands.com
    > > >> To: Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>
    > > >> CC: Max Herman <maxnmherman@hotmail.com>,
    > mt@rhizome.org,list@rhizome.org
    > > >> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
    > > >> Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 02:52:32 +0000
    > > >>
    > > >> Ok lets get it organized.
    > > >>
    > > >> Max, you curate the CD show.
    > > >> Lee, you promote the show
    > > >> I will get the first 100 CDs mastered and
    > printed.
    > > >>
    > > >> We sell it for $50 bucks a peice.
    > > >>
    > > >> I cover my costs and Rhizome should net around
    > $4500
    > > >>
    > > >> Ready 2 go?
    > > >>
    > > >> joseph
    > > >>
    > > >>
    > > >> Quoting Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>:
    > > >>
    > > >>> I donate art to Rhizome, music, images, etc.
    > The CD Idea is preaty good
    > > >> and
    > > >>> has worked for other nonprofit org like,
    > Lumpen Magazine in Chicago.
    > > >>> http://www.lumpen.com/
    > > >>>
    > > >>> on 10/25/02 2:12 AM, Max Herman at
    > maxnmherman@hotmail.com wrote:
    > > >>>
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>> Yeah, I was thinking a big fatty music CD,
    > all proceeds to Rhizome,
    > > >> I'd
    > > >>>> donate a song'r two.
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>>> From: joseph@electrichands.com
    > > >>>>> Reply-To: joseph@electrichands.com
    > > >>>>> To: Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>
    > > >>>>> CC: list@rhizome.org
    > > >>>>> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
    > > >>>>> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 05:45:52 +0000
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>> Its time to talk about industry mergers.
    > Forget the membership fees,
    > > >> very
    > > >>>>> few
    > > >>>>> will pay. If you are about to fold, either
    > fold, or start a capital
    > > >>>>> campaign
    > > >>>>> to raise 7 figures. Fold or Bold.
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>> joseph
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>> Quoting Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>:
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>> Hi Rhizomers:
    > > >>>>>>
    > > >>>>>> I am hoping to start a discussion here on
    > Raw about Rhizome's
    > > >> financial
    > > >>>>>> situation and a possible solution. This
    > email is rather long, but
    > > >> I'd
    > > >>>>>> appreciate it if you'd take the time to
    > read it through, give it
    > > >> some
    > > >>>>>> thought, and let me know what you think.
    > > >>>>>>
    > > >>>>>> First, some background information. It will
    > cost about $400,000 to
    > > >>>>> operate
    > > >>>>>> Rhizome.org this year. Here's how we spend
    > it: $6,000 on
    > > >> administrative
    > > >>>>>> fees (mostly processing credit card gifts);
    > $122,000 on operating
    > > >>>>> expenses
    > > >>>>>> (phone, rent, web hosting, office supplies,
    > etc.); $177,000 on
    > > >> payroll
    > > >>>>>> costs (salaries, health insurance, payroll
    > taxes, etc.); $93,000 on
    > > >>>>>> professional fees (writers, commissions,
    > consultants, etc.). These
    > > >>>>> numbers
    > > >>>>>> may seem high to some of you, but we
    > actually run a very lean,
    > > >> efficient
    > > >>>>>> operation. It simply costs a lot of money
    > to run a nonprofit
    > > >>>>> organization
    > > >>>>>> that offers as many programs to as many
    > people as we do.
    > > >>>>>>
    > > >>>>>> In the past, most of our revenue has come
    > from foundations, but
    > > >>>>> foundation
    > > >>>>>> support is shrinking. We had hoped to make
    > up the difference through
    > > >>>>> earned
    > > >>>>>> income from web hosting and online
    > education, but those services are
    > > >>>>>> getting off to a slow start. We have also,
    > as you surely know, tried
    > > >>>>> asking
    > > >>>>>> for voluntary contributions. But so far
    > this year only about 1% of
    > > >> our
    > > >>>>>> 19,000 members have made gifts.
    > > >>>>>>
    > > >>>>>> The Rhizome Board of Directors met for its
    > quarterly meeting last
    > > >>>>> Friday.
    > > >>>>>> The main topic was how to solve our
    > financial problems. I proposed
    > > >>>>> putting
    > > >>>>>> the organization into hibernation mode.
    > This would entail shutting
    > > >> down
    > > >>>>> the
    > > >>>>>> office, laying off the staff and
    > discontinuing most of our programs.
    > > >> We
    > > >>>>>> would keep the web site up, ask the
    > SuperUsers to continue to
    > > >> publish
    > > >>>>>> texts, and keep Raw online. But everything
    > else would stop: no more
    > > >>>>> Digest
    > > >>>>>> or Net Art News, no more commissions, no
    > more events. We'd stop
    > > >> adding
    > > >>>>> new
    > > >>>>>> projects to the ArtBase, stop improving the
    > web site (we have a long
    > > >>>>> list
    > > >>>>>> of bugs to fix and features to add) and
    > stop planning new programs.
    > > >>>>>>
    > > >>>>>> The Board felt that hibernation would be a
    > big mistake. Once we went
    > > >>>>> into
    > > >>>>>> hibernation, they argued, it would be very
    > hard to re-emerge and
    >
    === message truncated ===

    =====
    http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/

    __________________________________________________
    Do you Yahoo!?
    HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
    http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
  • joseph mcelroy | Tue Nov 5th 2002 1 a.m.
    I think a call for participation would be the first step. We need to identify
    the type of input/output activities required - such that we can define
    interfaces to make the transfers possible. I have a hunch that the order of
    the CD will start defining itself based upon data needs.

    An alternative to consuming data from another peice is to have multiple pieces
    consume identical, interactive user input and perform at the same time.

    joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
    frank + lyn - mc + El + roy

    go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
    call me 646 279 2309

    Quoting Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com>:

    >
    >
    > <How about each peice use as input, output from
    > another piece on the CD? >
    > I think this is a great idea -we are talking artowrks
    > rather that audio CD here right?
    > Why not an immediate call for participants on the
    > list.
    > (maybe with specific mails to people it would be good
    > to target)
    > Then someone ( lee, joseph?) decides an order of play.
    > It's made clear that these things need to be made to a
    > shortish deadline
    > The first work is created and mailed or a link is sent
    > to the next artist, and so on.
    > The disadvantage here is that even if each artists
    > make a piece in a week we're still talking 20 weeks
    > so....
    > ...to make it quicker I suggest the original work is
    > mailed to two artists and so on - or even maybe the
    > 'order of play' could be Rhizome like.
    > The thing i really like about this format is that it
    > feels very collective- it would also be great to have
    > artists who have engaged in fairly fierce polemic on
    > the list united in common cause -how about Grancher
    > remixes Cloninger or vice versa &c.( maybe this is a
    > bit unlikely but you get the point!)
    > anyway thats my two penny worth.
    > best
    > michael
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >
    > >
    > > joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
    > > frank + lyn - mc + El + roy
    > >
    > > go shopping ->
    > > http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
    > > call me 646 279 2309
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Quoting Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>:
    > >
    > > > Hello all
    > > >
    > > > Should we decide upon a theme?
    > > > What are the primary social topics discussed on
    > > Rhizome?
    > > > First thing to come to mind for me was, kNOwwWARe.
    > > > All just a play on words, sounds, images.
    > > > I think it should make people laugh. People need
    > > to laugh more.
    > > > How can we make this more of a collaboration that
    > > a group of individuals
    > > > from Rhizome making a compilation CD?
    > > >
    > > > Help me out here
    > > > Cheers
    > > > Lee
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > on 11/4/02 1:57 PM, Max Herman at
    > > maxnmherman@hotmail.com wrote:
    > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > This is going to have to wait for me till Jan
    > > 03. I'll be off neternet
    > > > > stuff till then.
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >> From: joseph@electrichands.com
    > > > >> To: Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>
    > > > >> CC: Max Herman <maxnmherman@hotmail.com>,
    > > mt@rhizome.org,list@rhizome.org
    > > > >> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
    > > > >> Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 02:52:32 +0000
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Ok lets get it organized.
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Max, you curate the CD show.
    > > > >> Lee, you promote the show
    > > > >> I will get the first 100 CDs mastered and
    > > printed.
    > > > >>
    > > > >> We sell it for $50 bucks a peice.
    > > > >>
    > > > >> I cover my costs and Rhizome should net around
    > > $4500
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Ready 2 go?
    > > > >>
    > > > >> joseph
    > > > >>
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Quoting Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>:
    > > > >>
    > > > >>> I donate art to Rhizome, music, images, etc.
    > > The CD Idea is preaty good
    > > > >> and
    > > > >>> has worked for other nonprofit org like,
    > > Lumpen Magazine in Chicago.
    > > > >>> http://www.lumpen.com/
    > > > >>>
    > > > >>> on 10/25/02 2:12 AM, Max Herman at
    > > maxnmherman@hotmail.com wrote:
    > > > >>>
    > > > >>>>
    > > > >>>>
    > > > >>>>
    > > > >>>> Yeah, I was thinking a big fatty music CD,
    > > all proceeds to Rhizome,
    > > > >> I'd
    > > > >>>> donate a song'r two.
    > > > >>>>
    > > > >>>>
    > > > >>>>
    > > > >>>>> From: joseph@electrichands.com
    > > > >>>>> Reply-To: joseph@electrichands.com
    > > > >>>>> To: Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>
    > > > >>>>> CC: list@rhizome.org
    > > > >>>>> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
    > > > >>>>> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 05:45:52 +0000
    > > > >>>>>
    > > > >>>>> Its time to talk about industry mergers.
    > > Forget the membership fees,
    > > > >> very
    > > > >>>>> few
    > > > >>>>> will pay. If you are about to fold, either
    > > fold, or start a capital
    > > > >>>>> campaign
    > > > >>>>> to raise 7 figures. Fold or Bold.
    > > > >>>>>
    > > > >>>>> joseph
    > > > >>>>>
    > > > >>>>>
    > > > >>>>> Quoting Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>:
    > > > >>>>>
    > > > >>>>>> Hi Rhizomers:
    > > > >>>>>>
    > > > >>>>>> I am hoping to start a discussion here on
    > > Raw about Rhizome's
    > > > >> financial
    > > > >>>>>> situation and a possible solution. This
    > > email is rather long, but
    > > > >> I'd
    > > > >>>>>> appreciate it if you'd take the time to
    > > read it through, give it
    > > > >> some
    > > > >>>>>> thought, and let me know what you think.
    > > > >>>>>>
    > > > >>>>>> First, some background information. It will
    > > cost about $400,000 to
    > > > >>>>> operate
    > > > >>>>>> Rhizome.org this year. Here's how we spend
    > > it: $6,000 on
    > > > >> administrative
    > > > >>>>>> fees (mostly processing credit card gifts);
    > > $122,000 on operating
    > > > >>>>> expenses
    > > > >>>>>> (phone, rent, web hosting, office supplies,
    > > etc.); $177,000 on
    > > > >> payroll
    > > > >>>>>> costs (salaries, health insurance, payroll
    > > taxes, etc.); $93,000 on
    > > > >>>>>> professional fees (writers, commissions,
    > > consultants, etc.). These
    > > > >>>>> numbers
    > > > >>>>>> may seem high to some of you, but we
    > > actually run a very lean,
    > > > >> efficient
    > > > >>>>>> operation. It simply costs a lot of money
    > > to run a nonprofit
    > > > >>>>> organization
    > > > >>>>>> that offers as many programs to as many
    > > people as we do.
    > > > >>>>>>
    > > > >>>>>> In the past, most of our revenue has come
    > > from foundations, but
    > > > >>>>> foundation
    > > > >>>>>> support is shrinking. We had hoped to make
    > > up the difference through
    > > > >>>>> earned
    > > > >>>>>> income from web hosting and online
    > > education, but those services are
    > > > >>>>>> getting off to a slow start. We have also,
    > > as you surely know, tried
    > > > >>>>> asking
    > > > >>>>>> for voluntary contributions. But so far
    > > this year only about 1% of
    > > > >> our
    > > > >>>>>> 19,000 members have made gifts.
    > > > >>>>>>
    > > > >>>>>> The Rhizome Board of Directors met for its
    > > quarterly meeting last
    > > > >>>>> Friday.
    > > > >>>>>> The main topic was how to solve our
    > > financial problems. I proposed
    > > > >>>>> putting
    > > > >>>>>> the organization into hibernation mode.
    > > This would entail shutting
    > > > >> down
    > > > >>>>> the
    > > > >>>>>> office, laying off the staff and
    > > discontinuing most of our programs.
    > > > >> We
    > > > >>>>>> would keep the web site up, ask the
    > > SuperUsers to continue to
    > > > >> publish
    > > > >>>>>> texts, and keep Raw online. But everything
    > > else would stop: no more
    > > > >>>>> Digest
    > > > >>>>>> or Net Art News, no more commissions, no
    > > more events. We'd stop
    > > > >> adding
    > > > >>>>> new
    > > > >>>>>> projects to the ArtBase, stop improving the
    > > web site (we have a long
    > > > >>>>> list
    > > > >>>>>> of bugs to fix and features to add) and
    > > stop planning new programs.
    > > > >>>>>>
    > > > >>>>>> The Board felt that hibernation would be a
    > > big mistake. Once we went
    > > > >>>>> into
    > > > >>>>>> hibernation, they argued, it would be very
    > > hard to re-emerge and
    > >
    > === message truncated ===
    >
    >
    > =====
    > http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
    >
    > __________________________________________________
    > Do you Yahoo!?
    > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
    > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
  • Lee Wells | Tue Nov 5th 2002 1 a.m.
    I agree.
    One thing we do need to consider is file size limits.
    If we are going to use a cd that doesn't leave us that much
    room, I guess we could upgrade to dvd.

    Once the official call of artists is relieced. Who will manage the submissions? What would be the best way of organizing the content? I was thinking all submitted content should be housed on individual urls provided by the artists. Then we would only have to arrange and organize the links. One submission per artist or group of artists.

    Anyways...I'm at work and have to go.
    Let keep it rolling.

    Mark, do you have any thoughts on this. Ways of making this run smoothly.

    Cheers
    Lee
    >----- Original Message -----
    >From: "joseph (yes)" <joseph@electrichands.com>
    >To: Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com>
    >Sent: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 15:04:39
    >
    >I think a call for participation would be the first
    >step.We need to identify
    >the type of input/output activities required - such
    >that we can define
    >interfaces to make the transfers possible. I have
    >a hunch that the order of
    >the CD will start defining itself based upon data
    >needs.
    >
    >An alternative to consuming data from another peice
    >is to have multiple pieces
    >consume identical, interactive user input and
    >perform at the same time.
    >
    >
    >joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
    >frank + lyn - mc + El + roy
    >
    >go shopping ->
    >http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
    >call me 646 279 2309
    >
    >
    >
    >Quoting Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com>:
    >
    >>
    >>
    >> <How about each peice use as input, output from
    >> another piece on the CD? >
    >> I think this is a great idea -we are talking
    >artowrks
    >> rather that audio CD here right?
    >> Why not an immediate call for participants on the
    >
    >> list.
    >> (maybe with specific mails to people it would be
    >good
    >> to target)
    >> Then someone ( lee, joseph?) decides an order of
    >play.
    >> It's made clear that these things need to be made
    >to a
    >> shortish deadline
    >> The first work is created and mailed or a link is
    >sent
    >> to the next artist, and so on.
    >> The disadvantage here is that even if each
    >artists
    >> make a piece in a week we're still talking 20
    >weeks
    >> so....
    >> ...to make it quicker I suggest the original work
    >is
    >> mailed to two artists and so on - or even maybe
    >the
    >> 'order of play' could be Rhizome like.
    >> The thing i really like about this format is that
    >it
    >> feels very collective- it would also be great to
    >have
    >> artists who have engaged in fairly fierce polemic
    >on
    >> the list united in common cause -how about
    >Grancher
    >> remixes Cloninger or vice versa &c.( maybe this
    >is a
    >> bit unlikely but you get the point!)
    >> anyway thats my two penny worth.
    >> best
    >> michael
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
    >> > frank + lyn - mc + El + roy
    >> >
    >> > go shopping ->
    >> > http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
    >> > call me 646 279 2309
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > Quoting Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>:
    >> >
    >> > > Hello all
    >> > >
    >> > > Should we decide upon a theme?
    >> > > What are the primary social topics discussed
    >on
    >> > Rhizome?
    >> > > First thing to come to mind for me was,
    >kNOwwWARe.
    >> > > All just a play on words, sounds, images.
    >> > > I think it should make people laugh. People
    >need
    >> > to laugh more.
    >> > > How can we make this more of a collaboration
    >that
    >> > a group of individuals
    >> > > from Rhizome making a compilation CD?
    >> > >
    >> > > Help me out here
    >> > > Cheers
    >> > > Lee
    >> > >
    >> > >
    >> > > on 11/4/02 1:57 PM, Max Herman at
    >> > maxnmherman@hotmail.com wrote:
    >> > >
    >> > > >
    >> > > >
    >> > > > This is going to have to wait for me till
    >Jan
    >> > 03. I'll be off neternet
    >> > > > stuff till then.
    >> > > >
    >> > > >
    >> > > >
    >> > > >
    >> > > >> From: joseph@electrichands.com
    >> > > >> To: Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>
    >> > > >> CC: Max Herman <maxnmherman@hotmail.com>,
    >> > mt@rhizome.org,list@rhizome.org
    >> > > >> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
    >> > > >> Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 02:52:32 +0000
    >> > > >>
    >> > > >> Ok lets get it organized.
    >> > > >>
    >> > > >> Max, you curate the CD show.
    >> > > >> Lee, you promote the show
    >> > > >> I will get the first 100 CDs mastered and
    >> > printed.
    >> > > >>
    >> > > >> We sell it for $50 bucks a peice.
    >> > > >>
    >> > > >> I cover my costs and Rhizome should net
    >around
    >> > $4500
    >> > > >>
    >> > > >> Ready 2 go?
    >> > > >>
    >> > > >> joseph
    >> > > >>
    >> > > >>
    >> > > >> Quoting Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>:
    >> > > >>
    >> > > >>> I donate art to Rhizome, music, images,
    >etc.
    >> > The CD Idea is preaty good
    >> > > >> and
    >> > > >>> has worked for other nonprofit org like,
    >> > Lumpen Magazine in Chicago.
    >> > > >>> http://www.lumpen.com/
    >> > > >>>
    >> > > >>> on 10/25/02 2:12 AM, Max Herman at
    >> > maxnmherman@hotmail.com wrote:
    >> > > >>>
    >> > > >>>>
    >> > > >>>>
    >> > > >>>>
    >> > > >>>> Yeah, I was thinking a big fatty music
    >CD,
    >> > all proceeds to Rhizome,
    >> > > >> I'd
    >> > > >>>> donate a song'r two.
    >> > > >>>>
    >> > > >>>>
    >> > > >>>>
    >> > > >>>>> From: joseph@electrichands.com
    >> > > >>>>> Reply-To: joseph@electrichands.com
    >> > > >>>>> To: Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>
    >> > > >>>>> CC: list@rhizome.org
    >> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership
    >fee?
    >> > > >>>>> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 05:45:52 +0000
    >> > > >>>>>
    >> > > >>>>> Its time to talk about industry
    >mergers.
    >> > Forget the membership fees,
    >> > > >> very
    >> > > >>>>> few
    >> > > >>>>> will pay.If you are about to fold,
    >either
    >> > fold, or start a capital
    >> > > >>>>> campaign
    >> > > >>>>> to raise 7 figures. Fold or Bold.
    >> > > >>>>>
    >> > > >>>>> joseph
    >> > > >>>>>
    >> > > >>>>>
    >> > > >>>>> Quoting Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>:
    >> > > >>>>>
    >> > > >>>>>> Hi Rhizomers:
    >> > > >>>>>>
    >> > > >>>>>> I am hoping to start a discussion here
    >on
    >> > Raw about Rhizome's
    >> > > >> financial
    >> > > >>>>>> situation and a possible solution.
    >This
    >> > email is rather long, but
    >> > > >> I'd
    >> > > >>>>>> appreciate it if you'd take the time
    >to
    >> > read it through, give it
    >> > > >> some
    >> > > >>>>>> thought, and let me know what you
    >think.
    >> > > >>>>>>
    >> > > >>>>>> First, some background information. It
    >will
    >> > cost about $400,000 to
    >> > > >>>>> operate
    >> > > >>>>>> Rhizome.org this year. Here's how we
    >spend
    >> > it: $6,000 on
    >> > > >> administrative
    >> > > >>>>>> fees (mostly processing credit card
    >gifts);
    >> > $122,000 on operating
    >> > > >>>>> expenses
    >> > > >>>>>> (phone, rent, web hosting, office
    >supplies,
    >> > etc.); $177,000 on
    >> > > >> payroll
    >> > > >>>>>> costs (salaries, health insurance,
    >payroll
    >> > taxes, etc.); $93,000 on
    >> > > >>>>>> professional fees (writers,
    >commissions,
    >> > consultants, etc.). These
    >> > > >>>>> numbers
    >> > > >>>>>> may seem high to some of you, but we
    >> > actually run a very lean,
    >> > > >> efficient
    >> > > >>>>>> operation. It simply costs a lot of
    >money
    >> > to run a nonprofit
    >> > > >>>>> organization
    >> > > >>>>>> that offers as many programs to as
    >many
    >> > people as we do.
    >> > > >>>>>>
    >> > > >>>>>> In the past, most of our revenue has
    >come
    >> > from foundations, but
    >> > > >>>>> foundation
    >> > > >>>>>> support is shrinking. We had hoped to
    >make
    >> > up the difference through
    >> > > >>>>> earned
    >> > > >>>>>> income from web hosting and online
    >> > education, but those services are
    >> > > >>>>>> getting off to a slow start. We have
    >also,
    >> > as you surely know, tried
    >> > > >>>>> asking
    >> > > >>>>>> for voluntary contributions. But so
    >far
    >> > this year only about 1% of
    >> > > >> our
    >> > > >>>>>> 19,000 members have made gifts.
    >> > > >>>>>>
    >> > > >>>>>> The Rhizome Board of Directors met for
    >its
    >> > quarterly meeting last
    >> > > >>>>> Friday.
    >> > > >>>>>> The main topic was how to solve our
    >> > financial problems. I proposed
    >> > > >>>>> putting
    >> > > >>>>>> the organization into hibernation
    >mode.
    >> > This would entail shutting
    >> > > >> down
    >> > > >>>>> the
    >> > > >>>>>> office, laying off the staff and
    >> > discontinuing most of our programs.
    >> > > >> We
    >> > > >>>>>> would keep the web site up, ask the
    >> > SuperUsers to continue to
    >> > > >> publish
    >> > > >>>>>> texts, and keep Raw online. But
    >everything
    >> > else would stop: no more
    >> > > >>>>> Digest
    >> > > >>>>>> or Net Art News, no more commissions,
    >no
    >> > more events. We'd stop
    >> > > >> adding
    >> > > >>>>> new
    >> > > >>>>>> projects to the ArtBase, stop
    >improving the
    >> > web site (we have a long
    >> > > >>>>> list
    >> > > >>>>>> of bugs to fix and features to add)
    >and
    >> > stop planning new programs.
    >> > > >>>>>>
    >> > > >>>>>> The Board felt that hibernation would
    >be a
    >> > big mistake. Once we went
    >> > > >>>>> into
    >> > > >>>>>> hibernation, they argued, it would be
    >very
    >> > hard to re-emerge and
    >> >
    >> === message truncated ===
    >>
    >>
    >> =====
    >> http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
    >>
    >>
    >__________________________________________________
    >> Do you Yahoo!?
    >> HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
    >> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
  • joseph mcelroy | Tue Nov 5th 2002 1 a.m.
    I think Max voted himself out for now, so since we started it, we should finish
    it. Mike, Lee, and Joseph choose submissions - round robin until the CD is
    full. (we get one each for ourselves, right :)

    joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
    frank + lyn - mc + El + roy

    go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
    call me 646 279 2309

    Quoting leewells@bb19.net:

    > I agree.
    > One thing we do need to consider is file size limits.
    > If we are going to use a cd that doesn't leave us that much
    > room, I guess we could upgrade to dvd.
    >
    > Once the official call of artists is relieced. Who will manage the
    > submissions? What would be the best way of organizing the content? I was
    > thinking all submitted content should be housed on individual urls provided
    > by the artists. Then we would only have to arrange and organize the links.
    > One submission per artist or group of artists.
    >
    > Anyways...I'm at work and have to go.
    > Let keep it rolling.
    >
    > Mark, do you have any thoughts on this. Ways of making this run smoothly.
    >
    > Cheers
    > Lee
    > >----- Original Message -----
    > >From: "joseph (yes)" <joseph@electrichands.com>
    > >To: Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com>
    > >Sent: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 15:04:39
    > >
    > >I think a call for participation would be the first
    > >step.We need to identify
    > >the type of input/output activities required - such
    > >that we can define
    > >interfaces to make the transfers possible. I have
    > >a hunch that the order of
    > >the CD will start defining itself based upon data
    > >needs.
    > >
    > >An alternative to consuming data from another peice
    > >is to have multiple pieces
    > >consume identical, interactive user input and
    > >perform at the same time.
    > >
    > >
    > >joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
    > >frank + lyn - mc + El + roy
    > >
    > >go shopping ->
    > >http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
    > >call me 646 279 2309
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >Quoting Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com>:
    > >
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> <How about each peice use as input, output from
    > >> another piece on the CD? >
    > >> I think this is a great idea -we are talking
    > >artowrks
    > >> rather that audio CD here right?
    > >> Why not an immediate call for participants on the
    > >
    > >> list.
    > >> (maybe with specific mails to people it would be
    > >good
    > >> to target)
    > >> Then someone ( lee, joseph?) decides an order of
    > >play.
    > >> It's made clear that these things need to be made
    > >to a
    > >> shortish deadline
    > >> The first work is created and mailed or a link is
    > >sent
    > >> to the next artist, and so on.
    > >> The disadvantage here is that even if each
    > >artists
    > >> make a piece in a week we're still talking 20
    > >weeks
    > >> so....
    > >> ...to make it quicker I suggest the original work
    > >is
    > >> mailed to two artists and so on - or even maybe
    > >the
    > >> 'order of play' could be Rhizome like.
    > >> The thing i really like about this format is that
    > >it
    > >> feels very collective- it would also be great to
    > >have
    > >> artists who have engaged in fairly fierce polemic
    > >on
    > >> the list united in common cause -how about
    > >Grancher
    > >> remixes Cloninger or vice versa &c.( maybe this
    > >is a
    > >> bit unlikely but you get the point!)
    > >> anyway thats my two penny worth.
    > >> best
    > >> michael
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> > joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
    > >> > frank + lyn - mc + El + roy
    > >> >
    > >> > go shopping ->
    > >> > http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
    > >> > call me 646 279 2309
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> > Quoting Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>:
    > >> >
    > >> > > Hello all
    > >> > >
    > >> > > Should we decide upon a theme?
    > >> > > What are the primary social topics discussed
    > >on
    > >> > Rhizome?
    > >> > > First thing to come to mind for me was,
    > >kNOwwWARe.
    > >> > > All just a play on words, sounds, images.
    > >> > > I think it should make people laugh. People
    > >need
    > >> > to laugh more.
    > >> > > How can we make this more of a collaboration
    > >that
    > >> > a group of individuals
    > >> > > from Rhizome making a compilation CD?
    > >> > >
    > >> > > Help me out here
    > >> > > Cheers
    > >> > > Lee
    > >> > >
    > >> > >
    > >> > > on 11/4/02 1:57 PM, Max Herman at
    > >> > maxnmherman@hotmail.com wrote:
    > >> > >
    > >> > > >
    > >> > > >
    > >> > > > This is going to have to wait for me till
    > >Jan
    > >> > 03. I'll be off neternet
    > >> > > > stuff till then.
    > >> > > >
    > >> > > >
    > >> > > >
    > >> > > >
    > >> > > >> From: joseph@electrichands.com
    > >> > > >> To: Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>
    > >> > > >> CC: Max Herman <maxnmherman@hotmail.com>,
    > >> > mt@rhizome.org,list@rhizome.org
    > >> > > >> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
    > >> > > >> Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 02:52:32 +0000
    > >> > > >>
    > >> > > >> Ok lets get it organized.
    > >> > > >>
    > >> > > >> Max, you curate the CD show.
    > >> > > >> Lee, you promote the show
    > >> > > >> I will get the first 100 CDs mastered and
    > >> > printed.
    > >> > > >>
    > >> > > >> We sell it for $50 bucks a peice.
    > >> > > >>
    > >> > > >> I cover my costs and Rhizome should net
    > >around
    > >> > $4500
    > >> > > >>
    > >> > > >> Ready 2 go?
    > >> > > >>
    > >> > > >> joseph
    > >> > > >>
    > >> > > >>
    > >> > > >> Quoting Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>:
    > >> > > >>
    > >> > > >>> I donate art to Rhizome, music, images,
    > >etc.
    > >> > The CD Idea is preaty good
    > >> > > >> and
    > >> > > >>> has worked for other nonprofit org like,
    > >> > Lumpen Magazine in Chicago.
    > >> > > >>> http://www.lumpen.com/
    > >> > > >>>
    > >> > > >>> on 10/25/02 2:12 AM, Max Herman at
    > >> > maxnmherman@hotmail.com wrote:
    > >> > > >>>
    > >> > > >>>>
    > >> > > >>>>
    > >> > > >>>>
    > >> > > >>>> Yeah, I was thinking a big fatty music
    > >CD,
    > >> > all proceeds to Rhizome,
    > >> > > >> I'd
    > >> > > >>>> donate a song'r two.
    > >> > > >>>>
    > >> > > >>>>
    > >> > > >>>>
    > >> > > >>>>> From: joseph@electrichands.com
    > >> > > >>>>> Reply-To: joseph@electrichands.com
    > >> > > >>>>> To: Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>
    > >> > > >>>>> CC: list@rhizome.org
    > >> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership
    > >fee?
    > >> > > >>>>> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 05:45:52 +0000
    > >> > > >>>>>
    > >> > > >>>>> Its time to talk about industry
    > >mergers.
    > >> > Forget the membership fees,
    > >> > > >> very
    > >> > > >>>>> few
    > >> > > >>>>> will pay.If you are about to fold,
    > >either
    > >> > fold, or start a capital
    > >> > > >>>>> campaign
    > >> > > >>>>> to raise 7 figures. Fold or Bold.
    > >> > > >>>>>
    > >> > > >>>>> joseph
    > >> > > >>>>>
    > >> > > >>>>>
    > >> > > >>>>> Quoting Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>:
    > >> > > >>>>>
    > >> > > >>>>>> Hi Rhizomers:
    > >> > > >>>>>>
    > >> > > >>>>>> I am hoping to start a discussion here
    > >on
    > >> > Raw about Rhizome's
    > >> > > >> financial
    > >> > > >>>>>> situation and a possible solution.
    > >This
    > >> > email is rather long, but
    > >> > > >> I'd
    > >> > > >>>>>> appreciate it if you'd take the time
    > >to
    > >> > read it through, give it
    > >> > > >> some
    > >> > > >>>>>> thought, and let me know what you
    > >think.
    > >> > > >>>>>>
    > >> > > >>>>>> First, some background information. It
    > >will
    > >> > cost about $400,000 to
    > >> > > >>>>> operate
    > >> > > >>>>>> Rhizome.org this year. Here's how we
    > >spend
    > >> > it: $6,000 on
    > >> > > >> administrative
    > >> > > >>>>>> fees (mostly processing credit card
    > >gifts);
    > >> > $122,000 on operating
    > >> > > >>>>> expenses
    > >> > > >>>>>> (phone, rent, web hosting, office
    > >supplies,
    > >> > etc.); $177,000 on
    > >> > > >> payroll
    > >> > > >>>>>> costs (salaries, health insurance,
    > >payroll
    > >> > taxes, etc.); $93,000 on
    > >> > > >>>>>> professional fees (writers,
    > >commissions,
    > >> > consultants, etc.). These
    > >> > > >>>>> numbers
    > >> > > >>>>>> may seem high to some of you, but we
    > >> > actually run a very lean,
    > >> > > >> efficient
    > >> > > >>>>>> operation. It simply costs a lot of
    > >money
    > >> > to run a nonprofit
    > >> > > >>>>> organization
    > >> > > >>>>>> that offers as many programs to as
    > >many
    > >> > people as we do.
    > >> > > >>>>>>
    > >> > > >>>>>> In the past, most of our revenue has
    > >come
    > >> > from foundations, but
    > >> > > >>>>> foundation
    > >> > > >>>>>> support is shrinking. We had hoped to
    > >make
    > >> > up the difference through
    > >> > > >>>>> earned
    > >> > > >>>>>> income from web hosting and online
    > >> > education, but those services are
    > >> > > >>>>>> getting off to a slow start. We have
    > >also,
    > >> > as you surely know, tried
    > >> > > >>>>> asking
    > >> > > >>>>>> for voluntary contributions. But so
    > >far
    > >> > this year only about 1% of
    > >> > > >> our
    > >> > > >>>>>> 19,000 members have made gifts.
    > >> > > >>>>>>
    > >> > > >>>>>> The Rhizome Board of Directors met for
    > >its
    > >> > quarterly meeting last
    > >> > > >>>>> Friday.
    > >> > > >>>>>> The main topic was how to solve our
    > >> > financial problems. I proposed
    > >> > > >>>>> putting
    > >> > > >>>>>> the organization into hibernation
    > >mode.
    > >> > This would entail shutting
    > >> > > >> down
    > >> > > >>>>> the
    > >> > > >>>>>> office, laying off the staff and
    > >> > discontinuing most of our programs.
    > >> > > >> We
    > >> > > >>>>>> would keep the web site up, ask the
    > >> > SuperUsers to continue to
    > >> > > >> publish
    > >> > > >>>>>> texts, and keep Raw online. But
    > >everything
    > >> > else would stop: no more
    > >> > > >>>>> Digest
    > >> > > >>>>>> or Net Art News, no more commissions,
    > >no
    > >> > more events. We'd stop
    > >> > > >> adding
    > >> > > >>>>> new
    > >> > > >>>>>> projects to the ArtBase, stop
    > >improving the
    > >> > web site (we have a long
    > >> > > >>>>> list
    > >> > > >>>>>> of bugs to fix and features to add)
    > >and
    > >> > stop planning new programs.
    > >> > > >>>>>>
    > >> > > >>>>>> The Board felt that hibernation would
    > >be a
    > >> > big mistake. Once we went
    > >> > > >>>>> into
    > >> > > >>>>>> hibernation, they argued, it would be
    > >very
    > >> > hard to re-emerge and
    > >> >
    > >> === message truncated ===
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> =====
    > >> http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
    > >>
    > >>
    > >__________________________________________________
    > >> Do you Yahoo!?
    > >> HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
    > >> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
  • Jess Loseby | Tue Nov 5th 2002 1 a.m.
    Hi,
    not sure how long this thread has been ongoing as I have been AWOL
    recently... I am guessing from this that you are suggesting a CD with
    various collborative works (visual/audio) from rhizome members?

    If I have got the right end of what you are suggesting Why not put the
    work on a someones site starting off with 'donated' static images/
    text/sound files .. as open pieces which can be ripped by everybody
    participating. People can then freely work the material to create
    something individual which are uploaded again as open files/source
    These can then taken again and added to, manipulated etc At the end
    of a specified time limit you should (in theory ha!ha!) a number of
    collaborative works in various forms and stages. From static to full
    blown ...er, whatever. Obviously someone would have to bottom line it
    but if no-one is willing to open their ftp up to everyone we can get a $0
    site for $30 and hopefully the work created for the CD will be worth a lot
    more than that....
    My advice would also be that the works should be anonymous until
    finished. That way (although pieces might be identifiable by the feel or
    technology used) you would have a really cross-list involvement rather
    than people who might naturally choose to work together collaborating.

    If I have got the idea messed up, apologies for not being on the case...
    jess.

    >
    >
    > <How about each peice use as input, output from
    > another piece on the CD? >
    > I think this is a great idea -we are talking artowrks
    > rather that audio CD here right?
    > Why not an immediate call for participants on the
    > list.
    > (maybe with specific mails to people it would be good
    > to target)
    > Then someone ( lee, joseph?) decides an order of play.
    > It's made clear that these things need to be made to a
    > shortish deadline
    > The first work is created and mailed or a link is sent
    > to the next artist, and so on.
    > The disadvantage here is that even if each artists
    > make a piece in a week we're still talking 20 weeks
    > so....
    > ...to make it quicker I suggest the original work is
    > mailed to two artists and so on - or even maybe the
    > 'order of play' could be Rhizome like.
    > The thing i really like about this format is that it
    > feels very collective- it would also be great to have
    > artists who have engaged in fairly fierce polemic on
    > the list united in common cause -how about Grancher
    > remixes Cloninger or vice versa &c.( maybe this is a
    > bit unlikely but you get the point!)
    > anyway thats my two penny worth.
    > best
    > michael
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >
    > >
    > > joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
    > > frank + lyn - mc + El + roy
    > >
    > > go shopping ->
    > > http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
    > > call me 646 279 2309
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Quoting Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>:
    > >
    > > > Hello all
    > > >
    > > > Should we decide upon a theme?
    > > > What are the primary social topics discussed on
    > > Rhizome?
    > > > First thing to come to mind for me was, kNOwwWARe.
    > > > All just a play on words, sounds, images.
    > > > I think it should make people laugh. People need
    > > to laugh more.
    > > > How can we make this more of a collaboration that
    > > a group of individuals
    > > > from Rhizome making a compilation CD?
    > > >
    > > > Help me out here
    > > > Cheers
    > > > Lee
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > on 11/4/02 1:57 PM, Max Herman at
    > > maxnmherman@hotmail.com wrote:
    > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > This is going to have to wait for me till Jan
    > > 03. I'll be off neternet
    > > > > stuff till then.
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >> From: joseph@electrichands.com
    > > > >> To: Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>
    > > > >> CC: Max Herman <maxnmherman@hotmail.com>,
    > > mt@rhizome.org,list@rhizome.org
    > > > >> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
    > > > >> Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 02:52:32 +0000
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Ok lets get it organized.
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Max, you curate the CD show.
    > > > >> Lee, you promote the show
    > > > >> I will get the first 100 CDs mastered and
    > > printed.
    > > > >>
    > > > >> We sell it for $50 bucks a peice.
    > > > >>
    > > > >> I cover my costs and Rhizome should net around
    > > $4500
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Ready 2 go?
    > > > >>
    > > > >> joseph
    > > > >>
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Quoting Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>:
    > > > >>
    > > > >>> I donate art to Rhizome, music, images, etc.
    > > The CD Idea is preaty good
    > > > >> and
    > > > >>> has worked for other nonprofit org like,
    > > Lumpen Magazine in Chicago.
    > > > >>> http://www.lumpen.com/
    > > > >>>
    > > > >>> on 10/25/02 2:12 AM, Max Herman at
    > > maxnmherman@hotmail.com wrote:
    > > > >>>
    > > > >>>>
    > > > >>>>
    > > > >>>>
    > > > >>>> Yeah, I was thinking a big fatty music CD,
    > > all proceeds to Rhizome,
    > > > >> I'd
    > > > >>>> donate a song'r two.
    > > > >>>>
    > > > >>>>
    > > > >>>>
    > > > >>>>> From: joseph@electrichands.com
    > > > >>>>> Reply-To: joseph@electrichands.com
    > > > >>>>> To: Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>
    > > > >>>>> CC: list@rhizome.org
    > > > >>>>> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
    > > > >>>>> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 05:45:52 +0000
    > > > >>>>>
    > > > >>>>> Its time to talk about industry mergers.
    > > Forget the membership fees,
    > > > >> very
    > > > >>>>> few
    > > > >>>>> will pay. If you are about to fold, either
    > > fold, or start a capital
    > > > >>>>> campaign
    > > > >>>>> to raise 7 figures. Fold or Bold.
    > > > >>>>>
    > > > >>>>> joseph
    > > > >>>>>
    > > > >>>>>
    > > > >>>>> Quoting Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>:
    > > > >>>>>
    > > > >>>>>> Hi Rhizomers:
    > > > >>>>>>
    > > > >>>>>> I am hoping to start a discussion here on
    > > Raw about Rhizome's
    > > > >> financial
    > > > >>>>>> situation and a possible solution. This
    > > email is rather long, but
    > > > >> I'd
    > > > >>>>>> appreciate it if you'd take the time to
    > > read it through, give it
    > > > >> some
    > > > >>>>>> thought, and let me know what you think.
    > > > >>>>>>
    > > > >>>>>> First, some background information. It will
    > > cost about $400,000 to
    > > > >>>>> operate
    > > > >>>>>> Rhizome.org this year. Here's how we spend
    > > it: $6,000 on
    > > > >> administrative
    > > > >>>>>> fees (mostly processing credit card gifts);
    > > $122,000 on operating
    > > > >>>>> expenses
    > > > >>>>>> (phone, rent, web hosting, office supplies,
    > > etc.); $177,000 on
    > > > >> payroll
    > > > >>>>>> costs (salaries, health insurance, payroll
    > > taxes, etc.); $93,000 on
    > > > >>>>>> professional fees (writers, commissions,
    > > consultants, etc.). These
    > > > >>>>> numbers
    > > > >>>>>> may seem high to some of you, but we
    > > actually run a very lean,
    > > > >> efficient
    > > > >>>>>> operation. It simply costs a lot of money
    > > to run a nonprofit
    > > > >>>>> organization
    > > > >>>>>> that offers as many programs to as many
    > > people as we do.
    > > > >>>>>>
    > > > >>>>>> In the past, most of our revenue has come
    > > from foundations, but
    > > > >>>>> foundation
    > > > >>>>>> support is shrinking. We had hoped to make
    > > up the difference through
    > > > >>>>> earned
    > > > >>>>>> income from web hosting and online
    > > education, but those services are
    > > > >>>>>> getting off to a slow start. We have also,
    > > as you surely know, tried
    > > > >>>>> asking
    > > > >>>>>> for voluntary contributions. But so far
    > > this year only about 1% of
    > > > >> our
    > > > >>>>>> 19,000 members have made gifts.
    > > > >>>>>>
    > > > >>>>>> The Rhizome Board of Directors met for its
    > > quarterly meeting last
    > > > >>>>> Friday.
    > > > >>>>>> The main topic was how to solve our
    > > financial problems. I proposed
    > > > >>>>> putting
    > > > >>>>>> the organization into hibernation mode.
    > > This would entail shutting
    > > > >> down
    > > > >>>>> the
    > > > >>>>>> office, laying off the staff and
    > > discontinuing most of our programs.
    > > > >> We
    > > > >>>>>> would keep the web site up, ask the
    > > SuperUsers to continue to
    > > > >> publish
    > > > >>>>>> texts, and keep Raw online. But everything
    > > else would stop: no more
    > > > >>>>> Digest
    > > > >>>>>> or Net Art News, no more commissions, no
    > > more events. We'd stop
    > > > >> adding
    > > > >>>>> new
    > > > >>>>>> projects to the ArtBase, stop improving the
    > > web site (we have a long
    > > > >>>>> list
    > > > >>>>>> of bugs to fix and features to add) and
    > > stop planning new programs.
    > > > >>>>>>
    > > > >>>>>> The Board felt that hibernation would be a
    > > big mistake. Once we went
    > > > >>>>> into
    > > > >>>>>> hibernation, they argued, it would be very
    > > hard to re-emerge and
    > >
    > === message truncated ===
    >
    >
    > =====
    > http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
    >
    > __________________________________________________
    > Do you Yahoo!?
    > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
    > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
    > + be me
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php

    o
    /^ rssgallery.com
    ][
  • Mark Tribe | Tue Nov 5th 2002 1 a.m.
    At 03:49 PM 11/5/2002 +0000, leewells@bb19.net wrote:
    >I agree.
    >One thing we do need to consider is file size limits.
    >If we are going to use a cd that doesn't leave us that much
    >room, I guess we could upgrade to dvd.
    >
    >Once the official call of artists is relieced. Who will manage the
    >submissions? What would be the best way of organizing the content? I was
    >thinking all submitted content should be housed on individual urls
    >provided by the artists. Then we would only have to arrange and organize
    >the links. One submission per artist or group of artists.
    >
    >Anyways...I'm at work and have to go.
    >Let keep it rolling.
    >
    >Mark, do you have any thoughts on this. Ways of making this run smoothly.

    Okay, here are my thoughts on the charity CD idea. First, I really
    appreciate the sentiment behind it. It's wonderful that you want to support
    Rhizome.org and are willing to donate your time and art work.

    That said, I think it will take a lot of work to pull it off. And even if
    it turns out great, it will be very hard to sell enough copies to earn a
    significant amount of money. So although it may be worth while as an end in
    itself, I don't think it makes sense on a strictly financial level as a
    fundraising tool. That's why I don't want to devote any of our very limited
    resources to this project. Sorry to be a wet blanket, but it's my job to
    make these kinds of decisions.

    Because we are a registered not-for-profit organization, we must follow the
    US Charities laws, and there are a lot of them that pertain to this kind of
    thing. As we learned when we got involved in web hosting and online
    education, you have to be very careful when it comes to earned income. We
    can't afford to compromise our charitable status. So we'd either have to
    run the project ourselves (to make sure it complies with all the US
    Charities laws) or maintain a totally arms-length relationship. Since we
    don't think it would be a good use of our resources, our only option is to
    have nothing to do with it.

    Kinda sucks, but that's the way it is. If you still want to go ahead with,
    I suggest you handle it as follows:

    + Set up an independent group to produce/distribute a CD-ROM.
    + Manage all of your own income and expenses, including any in-kind donations.
    + Make it clear to all potential supporters of the production and buyers of
    the CD-ROM that you are the group that is producing the product, and that
    Rhizome is in no way involved in this production.
    + Then, if you choose to, you can say that a % of the proceeds will be
    donated to Rhizome.org and you (the group) can make a donation to Rhizome,
    and whoever the donation comes from will get the tax credit.

    This is the cleanest way to do it. You have control of what you want to do,
    we don't have to expend our scant resources overseeing it, and we also
    don't risk endangering our charitable status.

    Best,

    Mark
  • brad brace | Tue Nov 5th 2002 1 a.m.
    Nope. Pay artists first.

    The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project >>>> since 1994 <<<<

    + + + serial ftp://ftp.eskimo.com/u/b/bbrace
    + + + eccentric ftp://ftp.idiom.com/users/bbrace
    + + + continuous hotline://artlyin.ftr.va.com.au
    + + + hypermodern ftp://ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace
    + + + imagery ftp://ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace

    News: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr alt.binaries.pictures.misc
    alt.binaries.pictures.fine-art.misc alt.12hr

    . 12hr email
    subscriptions => http://bbrace.laughingsquid.net/buy-into.html

    . Other | Mirror: http://www.eskimo.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html
    Projects | Reverse Solidus: http://bbrace.laughingsquid.net/
    | http://bbrace.net

    { brad brace } <<<<< bbrace@eskimo.com >>>> ~finger for pgp
  • Michael Szpakowski | Wed Nov 6th 2002 1 a.m.
    Mark & list
    I don't think anyone disputes that a fund raiser would
    be anything but token financially.
    I've certainly expressed myself in favour of fees and
    am willing to pay in order to keep Rhizome viable.
    Neither do I think anyone was asking for it to be an
    'official' Rhizome project.
    What it would do is to provided excellent publicity
    for Rhizome's cause and show the
    solidarity of the Rhizome 'community', which might
    just impress potential funders.
    Unfortunately I think the negative tone of your mail
    will effectivley act as a spoiler in terms of a call
    for work on this list from as wide a range of known
    and unknown artists as would have been possible.
    I hope I'm wrong -I'd like the thing to happen and if
    people are up for it then they should
    post to that effect.
    I can't help feeling though in this instance that an
    appeal to 'the Rhizome community' was good insofar as
    it obtained an endorsement of fees but that it wasn't
    *really* intended to engender a wide and self starting
    debate or activity from Rhizome members.
    A pity.
    Michael

    --- Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org> wrote:
    > At 03:49 PM 11/5/2002 +0000, leewells@bb19.net
    > wrote:
    > >I agree.
    > >One thing we do need to consider is file size
    > limits.
    > >If we are going to use a cd that doesn't leave us
    > that much
    > >room, I guess we could upgrade to dvd.
    > >
    > >Once the official call of artists is relieced. Who
    > will manage the
    > >submissions? What would be the best way of
    > organizing the content? I was
    > >thinking all submitted content should be housed on
    > individual urls
    > >provided by the artists. Then we would only have to
    > arrange and organize
    > >the links. One submission per artist or group of
    > artists.
    > >
    > >Anyways...I'm at work and have to go.
    > >Let keep it rolling.
    > >
    > >Mark, do you have any thoughts on this. Ways of
    > making this run smoothly.
    >
    > Okay, here are my thoughts on the charity CD idea.
    > First, I really
    > appreciate the sentiment behind it. It's wonderful
    > that you want to support
    > Rhizome.org and are willing to donate your time and
    > art work.
    >
    > That said, I think it will take a lot of work to
    > pull it off. And even if
    > it turns out great, it will be very hard to sell
    > enough copies to earn a
    > significant amount of money. So although it may be
    > worth while as an end in
    > itself, I don't think it makes sense on a strictly
    > financial level as a
    > fundraising tool. That's why I don't want to devote
    > any of our very limited
    > resources to this project. Sorry to be a wet
    > blanket, but it's my job to
    > make these kinds of decisions.
    >
    > Because we are a registered not-for-profit
    > organization, we must follow the
    > US Charities laws, and there are a lot of them that
    > pertain to this kind of
    > thing. As we learned when we got involved in web
    > hosting and online
    > education, you have to be very careful when it comes
    > to earned income. We
    > can't afford to compromise our charitable status. So
    > we'd either have to
    > run the project ourselves (to make sure it complies
    > with all the US
    > Charities laws) or maintain a totally arms-length
    > relationship. Since we
    > don't think it would be a good use of our resources,
    > our only option is to
    > have nothing to do with it.
    >
    > Kinda sucks, but that's the way it is. If you still
    > want to go ahead with,
    > I suggest you handle it as follows:
    >
    > + Set up an independent group to produce/distribute
    > a CD-ROM.
    > + Manage all of your own income and expenses,
    > including any in-kind donations.
    > + Make it clear to all potential supporters of the
    > production and buyers of
    > the CD-ROM that you are the group that is producing
    > the product, and that
    > Rhizome is in no way involved in this production.
    > + Then, if you choose to, you can say that a % of
    > the proceeds will be
    > donated to Rhizome.org and you (the group) can make
    > a donation to Rhizome,
    > and whoever the donation comes from will get the tax
    > credit.
    >
    > This is the cleanest way to do it. You have control
    > of what you want to do,
    > we don't have to expend our scant resources
    > overseeing it, and we also
    > don't risk endangering our charitable status.
    >
    > Best,
    >
    > Mark
    >
    > + be me
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
    > out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at
    http://rhizome.org/info/29.php

    =====
    http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/

    __________________________________________________
    Do you Yahoo!?
    HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
    http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
  • Kate Southworth | Wed Nov 6th 2002 1 a.m.
    Sounds like a great idea Jess. Count Patrick and I in!

    Or how about members doing conceptual 'remixes' of other member's work.

    love
    Kate

    Jess Loseby11/5/02 18:46jess@rssgallery.com

    > Hi,
    > not sure how long this thread has been ongoing as I have been AWOL
    > recently... I am guessing from this that you are suggesting a CD with
    > various collborative works (visual/audio) from rhizome members?
    >
    > If I have got the right end of what you are suggesting Why not put the
    > work on a someones site starting off with 'donated' static images/
    > text/sound files .. as open pieces which can be ripped by everybody
    > participating. People can then freely work the material to create
    > something individual which are uploaded again as open files/source
    > These can then taken again and added to, manipulated etc At the end
    > of a specified time limit you should (in theory ha!ha!) a number of
    > collaborative works in various forms and stages. From static to full
    > blown ...er, whatever. Obviously someone would have to bottom line it
    > but if no-one is willing to open their ftp up to everyone we can get a $0
    > site for $30 and hopefully the work created for the CD will be worth a lot
    > more than that....
    > My advice would also be that the works should be anonymous until
    > finished. That way (although pieces might be identifiable by the feel or
    > technology used) you would have a really cross-list involvement rather
    > than people who might naturally choose to work together collaborating.
    >
    > If I have got the idea messed up, apologies for not being on the case...
    > jess.
    >
    >
    >>
    >>
    >> <How about each peice use as input, output from
    >> another piece on the CD? >
    >> I think this is a great idea -we are talking artowrks
    >> rather that audio CD here right?
    >> Why not an immediate call for participants on the
    >> list.
    >> (maybe with specific mails to people it would be good
    >> to target)
    >> Then someone ( lee, joseph?) decides an order of play.
    >> It's made clear that these things need to be made to a
    >> shortish deadline
    >> The first work is created and mailed or a link is sent
    >> to the next artist, and so on.
    >> The disadvantage here is that even if each artists
    >> make a piece in a week we're still talking 20 weeks
    >> so....
    >> ...to make it quicker I suggest the original work is
    >> mailed to two artists and so on - or even maybe the
    >> 'order of play' could be Rhizome like.
    >> The thing i really like about this format is that it
    >> feels very collective- it would also be great to have
    >> artists who have engaged in fairly fierce polemic on
    >> the list united in common cause -how about Grancher
    >> remixes Cloninger or vice versa &c.( maybe this is a
    >> bit unlikely but you get the point!)
    >> anyway thats my two penny worth.
    >> best
    >> michael
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
    >>> frank + lyn - mc + El + roy
    >>>
    >>> go shopping ->
    >>> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
    >>> call me 646 279 2309
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Quoting Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>:
    >>>
    >>>> Hello all
    >>>>
    >>>> Should we decide upon a theme?
    >>>> What are the primary social topics discussed on
    >>> Rhizome?
    >>>> First thing to come to mind for me was, kNOwwWARe.
    >>>> All just a play on words, sounds, images.
    >>>> I think it should make people laugh. People need
    >>> to laugh more.
    >>>> How can we make this more of a collaboration that
    >>> a group of individuals
    >>>> from Rhizome making a compilation CD?
    >>>>
    >>>> Help me out here
    >>>> Cheers
    >>>> Lee
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> on 11/4/02 1:57 PM, Max Herman at
    >>> maxnmherman@hotmail.com wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> This is going to have to wait for me till Jan
    >>> 03. I'll be off neternet
    >>>>> stuff till then.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> From: joseph@electrichands.com
    >>>>>> To: Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>
    >>>>>> CC: Max Herman <maxnmherman@hotmail.com>,
    >>> mt@rhizome.org,list@rhizome.org
    >>>>>> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
    >>>>>> Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 02:52:32 +0000
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Ok lets get it organized.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Max, you curate the CD show.
    >>>>>> Lee, you promote the show
    >>>>>> I will get the first 100 CDs mastered and
    >>> printed.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> We sell it for $50 bucks a peice.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> I cover my costs and Rhizome should net around
    >>> $4500
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Ready 2 go?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> joseph
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Quoting Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> I donate art to Rhizome, music, images, etc.
    >>> The CD Idea is preaty good
    >>>>>> and
    >>>>>>> has worked for other nonprofit org like,
    >>> Lumpen Magazine in Chicago.
    >>>>>>> http://www.lumpen.com/
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> on 10/25/02 2:12 AM, Max Herman at
    >>> maxnmherman@hotmail.com wrote:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Yeah, I was thinking a big fatty music CD,
    >>> all proceeds to Rhizome,
    >>>>>> I'd
    >>>>>>>> donate a song'r two.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> From: joseph@electrichands.com
    >>>>>>>>> Reply-To: joseph@electrichands.com
    >>>>>>>>> To: Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>
    >>>>>>>>> CC: list@rhizome.org
    >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
    >>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 05:45:52 +0000
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Its time to talk about industry mergers.
    >>> Forget the membership fees,
    >>>>>> very
    >>>>>>>>> few
    >>>>>>>>> will pay. If you are about to fold, either
    >>> fold, or start a capital
    >>>>>>>>> campaign
    >>>>>>>>> to raise 7 figures. Fold or Bold.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> joseph
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Quoting Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>:
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> Hi Rhizomers:
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> I am hoping to start a discussion here on
    >>> Raw about Rhizome's
    >>>>>> financial
    >>>>>>>>>> situation and a possible solution. This
    >>> email is rather long, but
    >>>>>> I'd
    >>>>>>>>>> appreciate it if you'd take the time to
    >>> read it through, give it
    >>>>>> some
    >>>>>>>>>> thought, and let me know what you think.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> First, some background information. It will
    >>> cost about $400,000 to
    >>>>>>>>> operate
    >>>>>>>>>> Rhizome.org this year. Here's how we spend
    >>> it: $6,000 on
    >>>>>> administrative
    >>>>>>>>>> fees (mostly processing credit card gifts);
    >>> $122,000 on operating
    >>>>>>>>> expenses
    >>>>>>>>>> (phone, rent, web hosting, office supplies,
    >>> etc.); $177,000 on
    >>>>>> payroll
    >>>>>>>>>> costs (salaries, health insurance, payroll
    >>> taxes, etc.); $93,000 on
    >>>>>>>>>> professional fees (writers, commissions,
    >>> consultants, etc.). These
    >>>>>>>>> numbers
    >>>>>>>>>> may seem high to some of you, but we
    >>> actually run a very lean,
    >>>>>> efficient
    >>>>>>>>>> operation. It simply costs a lot of money
    >>> to run a nonprofit
    >>>>>>>>> organization
    >>>>>>>>>> that offers as many programs to as many
    >>> people as we do.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> In the past, most of our revenue has come
    >>> from foundations, but
    >>>>>>>>> foundation
    >>>>>>>>>> support is shrinking. We had hoped to make
    >>> up the difference through
    >>>>>>>>> earned
    >>>>>>>>>> income from web hosting and online
    >>> education, but those services are
    >>>>>>>>>> getting off to a slow start. We have also,
    >>> as you surely know, tried
    >>>>>>>>> asking
    >>>>>>>>>> for voluntary contributions. But so far
    >>> this year only about 1% of
    >>>>>> our
    >>>>>>>>>> 19,000 members have made gifts.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> The Rhizome Board of Directors met for its
    >>> quarterly meeting last
    >>>>>>>>> Friday.
    >>>>>>>>>> The main topic was how to solve our
    >>> financial problems. I proposed
    >>>>>>>>> putting
    >>>>>>>>>> the organization into hibernation mode.
    >>> This would entail shutting
    >>>>>> down
    >>>>>>>>> the
    >>>>>>>>>> office, laying off the staff and
    >>> discontinuing most of our programs.
    >>>>>> We
    >>>>>>>>>> would keep the web site up, ask the
    >>> SuperUsers to continue to
    >>>>>> publish
    >>>>>>>>>> texts, and keep Raw online. But everything
    >>> else would stop: no more
    >>>>>>>>> Digest
    >>>>>>>>>> or Net Art News, no more commissions, no
    >>> more events. We'd stop
    >>>>>> adding
    >>>>>>>>> new
    >>>>>>>>>> projects to the ArtBase, stop improving the
    >>> web site (we have a long
    >>>>>>>>> list
    >>>>>>>>>> of bugs to fix and features to add) and
    >>> stop planning new programs.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> The Board felt that hibernation would be a
    >>> big mistake. Once we went
    >>>>>>>>> into
    >>>>>>>>>> hibernation, they argued, it would be very
    >>> hard to re-emerge and
    >>>
    >> === message truncated ===
    >>
    >>
    >> =====
    >> http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
    >>
    >> __________________________________________________
    >> Do you Yahoo!?
    >> HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
    >> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
    >> + be me
    >> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    >> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    >> +
    >> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
    > o
    > /^ rssgallery.com
    > ][
    >
    >
    >
    > + be me
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
  • joseph mcelroy | Wed Nov 6th 2002 1 a.m.
    Is Rhizome a vanity project for a select few or is meant to be a large
    organization growing to support networked art and artists?

    Convert the community efforts and obvious volunteerism into a large
    "worthwhile" campaign to raise money or get off the pot.

    (disgusted with everything today)

    joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
    frank + lyn - mc + El + roy

    go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
    call me 646 279 2309

    Quoting Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com>:

    > Mark & list
    > I don't think anyone disputes that a fund raiser would
    > be anything but token financially.
    > I've certainly expressed myself in favour of fees and
    > am willing to pay in order to keep Rhizome viable.
    > Neither do I think anyone was asking for it to be an
    > 'official' Rhizome project.
    > What it would do is to provided excellent publicity
    > for Rhizome's cause and show the
    > solidarity of the Rhizome 'community', which might
    > just impress potential funders.
    > Unfortunately I think the negative tone of your mail
    > will effectivley act as a spoiler in terms of a call
    > for work on this list from as wide a range of known
    > and unknown artists as would have been possible.
    > I hope I'm wrong -I'd like the thing to happen and if
    > people are up for it then they should
    > post to that effect.
    > I can't help feeling though in this instance that an
    > appeal to 'the Rhizome community' was good insofar as
    > it obtained an endorsement of fees but that it wasn't
    > *really* intended to engender a wide and self starting
    > debate or activity from Rhizome members.
    > A pity.
    > Michael
    >
    > --- Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org> wrote:
    > > At 03:49 PM 11/5/2002 +0000, leewells@bb19.net
    > > wrote:
    > > >I agree.
    > > >One thing we do need to consider is file size
    > > limits.
    > > >If we are going to use a cd that doesn't leave us
    > > that much
    > > >room, I guess we could upgrade to dvd.
    > > >
    > > >Once the official call of artists is relieced. Who
    > > will manage the
    > > >submissions? What would be the best way of
    > > organizing the content? I was
    > > >thinking all submitted content should be housed on
    > > individual urls
    > > >provided by the artists. Then we would only have to
    > > arrange and organize
    > > >the links. One submission per artist or group of
    > > artists.
    > > >
    > > >Anyways...I'm at work and have to go.
    > > >Let keep it rolling.
    > > >
    > > >Mark, do you have any thoughts on this. Ways of
    > > making this run smoothly.
    > >
    > > Okay, here are my thoughts on the charity CD idea.
    > > First, I really
    > > appreciate the sentiment behind it. It's wonderful
    > > that you want to support
    > > Rhizome.org and are willing to donate your time and
    > > art work.
    > >
    > > That said, I think it will take a lot of work to
    > > pull it off. And even if
    > > it turns out great, it will be very hard to sell
    > > enough copies to earn a
    > > significant amount of money. So although it may be
    > > worth while as an end in
    > > itself, I don't think it makes sense on a strictly
    > > financial level as a
    > > fundraising tool. That's why I don't want to devote
    > > any of our very limited
    > > resources to this project. Sorry to be a wet
    > > blanket, but it's my job to
    > > make these kinds of decisions.
    > >
    > > Because we are a registered not-for-profit
    > > organization, we must follow the
    > > US Charities laws, and there are a lot of them that
    > > pertain to this kind of
    > > thing. As we learned when we got involved in web
    > > hosting and online
    > > education, you have to be very careful when it comes
    > > to earned income. We
    > > can't afford to compromise our charitable status. So
    > > we'd either have to
    > > run the project ourselves (to make sure it complies
    > > with all the US
    > > Charities laws) or maintain a totally arms-length
    > > relationship. Since we
    > > don't think it would be a good use of our resources,
    > > our only option is to
    > > have nothing to do with it.
    > >
    > > Kinda sucks, but that's the way it is. If you still
    > > want to go ahead with,
    > > I suggest you handle it as follows:
    > >
    > > + Set up an independent group to produce/distribute
    > > a CD-ROM.
    > > + Manage all of your own income and expenses,
    > > including any in-kind donations.
    > > + Make it clear to all potential supporters of the
    > > production and buyers of
    > > the CD-ROM that you are the group that is producing
    > > the product, and that
    > > Rhizome is in no way involved in this production.
    > > + Then, if you choose to, you can say that a % of
    > > the proceeds will be
    > > donated to Rhizome.org and you (the group) can make
    > > a donation to Rhizome,
    > > and whoever the donation comes from will get the tax
    > > credit.
    > >
    > > This is the cleanest way to do it. You have control
    > > of what you want to do,
    > > we don't have to expend our scant resources
    > > overseeing it, and we also
    > > don't risk endangering our charitable status.
    > >
    > > Best,
    > >
    > > Mark
    > >
    > > + be me
    > > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    > > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > > +
    > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
    > > out in the
    > > Membership Agreement available online at
    > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
    >
    > =====
    > http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
    >
    > __________________________________________________
    > Do you Yahoo!?
    > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
    > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
  • Mark Tribe | Wed Nov 6th 2002 1 a.m.
    At 03:40 AM 11/6/2002 -0800, Michael Szpakowski wrote:
    >Mark & list
    >I don't think anyone disputes that a fund raiser would
    >be anything but token financially.
    >I've certainly expressed myself in favour of fees and
    >am willing to pay in order to keep Rhizome viable.
    >Neither do I think anyone was asking for it to be an
    >'official' Rhizome project.
    >What it would do is to provided excellent publicity
    >for Rhizome's cause and show the
    >solidarity of the Rhizome 'community', which might
    >just impress potential funders.

    good point.

    >Unfortunately I think the negative tone of your mail
    >will effectivley act as a spoiler in terms of a call
    >for work on this list from as wide a range of known
    >and unknown artists as would have been possible.

    that certainly wasn't my intent.

    >I hope I'm wrong -I'd like the thing to happen and if
    >people are up for it then they should
    >post to that effect.
    >I can't help feeling though in this instance that an
    >appeal to 'the Rhizome community' was good insofar as
    >it obtained an endorsement of fees but that it wasn't
    >*really* intended to engender a wide and self starting
    >debate or activity from Rhizome members.

    i was and is really intended to engender debate. although i hadn't
    anticipated this kind of "self-starting activity", as i said in my response
    i appreciate the sentiment. but you can't expect me to get behind every idea.

    >A pity.
    >Michael
    >
    >--- Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org> wrote:
    > > At 03:49 PM 11/5/2002 +0000, leewells@bb19.net
    > > wrote:
    > > >I agree.
    > > >One thing we do need to consider is file size
    > > limits.
    > > >If we are going to use a cd that doesn't leave us
    > > that much
    > > >room, I guess we could upgrade to dvd.
    > > >
    > > >Once the official call of artists is relieced. Who
    > > will manage the
    > > >submissions? What would be the best way of
    > > organizing the content? I was
    > > >thinking all submitted content should be housed on
    > > individual urls
    > > >provided by the artists. Then we would only have to
    > > arrange and organize
    > > >the links. One submission per artist or group of
    > > artists.
    > > >
    > > >Anyways...I'm at work and have to go.
    > > >Let keep it rolling.
    > > >
    > > >Mark, do you have any thoughts on this. Ways of
    > > making this run smoothly.
    > >
    > > Okay, here are my thoughts on the charity CD idea.
    > > First, I really
    > > appreciate the sentiment behind it. It's wonderful
    > > that you want to support
    > > Rhizome.org and are willing to donate your time and
    > > art work.
    > >
    > > That said, I think it will take a lot of work to
    > > pull it off. And even if
    > > it turns out great, it will be very hard to sell
    > > enough copies to earn a
    > > significant amount of money. So although it may be
    > > worth while as an end in
    > > itself, I don't think it makes sense on a strictly
    > > financial level as a
    > > fundraising tool. That's why I don't want to devote
    > > any of our very limited
    > > resources to this project. Sorry to be a wet
    > > blanket, but it's my job to
    > > make these kinds of decisions.
    > >
    > > Because we are a registered not-for-profit
    > > organization, we must follow the
    > > US Charities laws, and there are a lot of them that
    > > pertain to this kind of
    > > thing. As we learned when we got involved in web
    > > hosting and online
    > > education, you have to be very careful when it comes
    > > to earned income. We
    > > can't afford to compromise our charitable status. So
    > > we'd either have to
    > > run the project ourselves (to make sure it complies
    > > with all the US
    > > Charities laws) or maintain a totally arms-length
    > > relationship. Since we
    > > don't think it would be a good use of our resources,
    > > our only option is to
    > > have nothing to do with it.
    > >
    > > Kinda sucks, but that's the way it is. If you still
    > > want to go ahead with,
    > > I suggest you handle it as follows:
    > >
    > > + Set up an independent group to produce/distribute
    > > a CD-ROM.
    > > + Manage all of your own income and expenses,
    > > including any in-kind donations.
    > > + Make it clear to all potential supporters of the
    > > production and buyers of
    > > the CD-ROM that you are the group that is producing
    > > the product, and that
    > > Rhizome is in no way involved in this production.
    > > + Then, if you choose to, you can say that a % of
    > > the proceeds will be
    > > donated to Rhizome.org and you (the group) can make
    > > a donation to Rhizome,
    > > and whoever the donation comes from will get the tax
    > > credit.
    > >
    > > This is the cleanest way to do it. You have control
    > > of what you want to do,
    > > we don't have to expend our scant resources
    > > overseeing it, and we also
    > > don't risk endangering our charitable status.
    > >
    > > Best,
    > >
    > > Mark
  • Jess Loseby | Wed Nov 6th 2002 1 a.m.
    > so Jess would you be up for being on t'committee?
    Michael,
    I happy to but I still can't seem to get a handle on what you guys are
    proposing....
    MT's email confused me too are rhizome up for this or not?
    If you want to do the collaborative file/share idea I have a domain
    doing bugger all (nowhere.tv) that I would be happy to 'donate'. I can
    give the ftp details out to anyone who fancies...
    jess. o
    /^ rssgallery.com
    ][
  • Jess Loseby | Wed Nov 6th 2002 1 a.m.
    That would be great Kate, although I don't know what being 'in' means
    yet. It was just an idea I suggested but I still can't work out what stage
    the ideas are and if it consistent with what was be proposed before.
    I think it could work, and I have a domain I could 'donate' (nowhere.tv) if
    people wanted to give it a go but (as I said to michael) I can't work out
    where the conversation is at...
    jess.

    > Sounds like a great idea Jess. Count Patrick and I in!
    >
    > Or how about members doing conceptual 'remixes' of other member's work.
    >
    > love
    > Kate
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Jess Loseby11/5/02 18:46jess@rssgallery.com
    >
    > > Hi,
    > > not sure how long this thread has been ongoing as I have been AWOL
    > > recently... I am guessing from this that you are suggesting a CD with
    > > various collborative works (visual/audio) from rhizome members?
    > >
    > > If I have got the right end of what you are suggesting Why not put the
    > > work on a someones site starting off with 'donated' static images/
    > > text/sound files .. as open pieces which can be ripped by everybody
    > > participating. People can then freely work the material to create
    > > something individual which are uploaded again as open files/source
    > > These can then taken again and added to, manipulated etc At the end
    > > of a specified time limit you should (in theory ha!ha!) a number of
    > > collaborative works in various forms and stages. From static to full
    > > blown ...er, whatever. Obviously someone would have to bottom line it
    > > but if no-one is willing to open their ftp up to everyone we can get a $0
    > > site for $30 and hopefully the work created for the CD will be worth a lot
    > > more than that....
    > > My advice would also be that the works should be anonymous until
    > > finished. That way (although pieces might be identifiable by the feel or
    > > technology used) you would have a really cross-list involvement rather
    > > than people who might naturally choose to work together collaborating.
    > >
    > > If I have got the idea messed up, apologies for not being on the case...
    > > jess.
    > >
    > >
    o
    /^ rssgallery.com
    ][
  • Kate Southworth | Wed Nov 6th 2002 1 a.m.
    If someone doesn't mind going over it again, a recap would be much
    appreciated.

    Kate

    Jess Loseby11/6/02 17:01jess@rssgallery.com

    > That would be great Kate, although I don't know what being 'in' means
    > yet. It was just an idea I suggested but I still can't work out what stage
    > the ideas are and if it consistent with what was be proposed before.
    > I think it could work, and I have a domain I could 'donate' (nowhere.tv) if
    > people wanted to give it a go but (as I said to michael) I can't work out
    > where the conversation is at...
    > jess.
    >
    >> Sounds like a great idea Jess. Count Patrick and I in!
    >>
    >> Or how about members doing conceptual 'remixes' of other member's work.
    >>
    >> love
    >> Kate
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Jess Loseby11/5/02 18:46jess@rssgallery.com
    >>
    >>> Hi,
    >>> not sure how long this thread has been ongoing as I have been AWOL
    >>> recently... I am guessing from this that you are suggesting a CD with
    >>> various collborative works (visual/audio) from rhizome members?
    >>>
    >>> If I have got the right end of what you are suggesting Why not put the
    >>> work on a someones site starting off with 'donated' static images/
    >>> text/sound files .. as open pieces which can be ripped by everybody
    >>> participating. People can then freely work the material to create
    >>> something individual which are uploaded again as open files/source
    >>> These can then taken again and added to, manipulated etc At the end
    >>> of a specified time limit you should (in theory ha!ha!) a number of
    >>> collaborative works in various forms and stages. From static to full
    >>> blown ...er, whatever. Obviously someone would have to bottom line it
    >>> but if no-one is willing to open their ftp up to everyone we can get a $0
    >>> site for $30 and hopefully the work created for the CD will be worth a lot
    >>> more than that....
    >>> My advice would also be that the works should be anonymous until
    >>> finished. That way (although pieces might be identifiable by the feel or
    >>> technology used) you would have a really cross-list involvement rather
    >>> than people who might naturally choose to work together collaborating.
    >>>
    >>> If I have got the idea messed up, apologies for not being on the case...
    >>> jess.
    >>>
    >>>
    > o
    > /^ rssgallery.com
    > ][
    >
    >
    >
  • D42 Kandinskij | Wed Nov 6th 2002 1 a.m.
    On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, joseph (yes) wrote:

    > Is Rhizome a vanity project for a select few

    Yes it is. Do you have what it takes to be a SuperUser?

    `, . ` `k a r e i' ? ' D42
  • Lee Wells | Wed Nov 6th 2002 1 a.m.
    Hello All.
    Well this doesn't suprise me.
    I believe the net-art world is no different than the art world in general.
    Personally I think painting is much more fun to produce than a website
    but...with that said.

    Whe should know there are various factions within the Rhizome community.
    From conservative to the far-left. Politics play a large part in Rhizome.

    I think Mark has a point, ya know Mark Tribe's Rhizome.org has entered the
    museum sphere in addition to many of the artists that participate in
    Rhizome....or is it the other way around. Anyway....
    If Rhizome.org were to produce a cd project he would definately need the
    time to produce and curate the artists/structure/theme/etc. There is only so
    much space and yes certain artists due to status would have to be included.
    No questions asked. Then there is concensis or the board that Mark is
    directly accountable to. They friends too.

    What I am seeing here is very similar to what happens in the Anarchist
    Collective community. Activist politic of cool.
    This happened to a certain degree to my organization IFAC (Imperfect Fluids
    Arts Collective) over the course the five years I had a gallery space in
    Chicago (35 exhibitions, installations, performances and screening later). I
    exhibited my friends, they helped me out, but for the most part as soon as
    the money issue was an issue they would not help. Some of the people I know
    now were not my friends. I closed down show in the fall of 2000 and moved to
    NYC to persue my painting career.

    There are issues to contend with and do make sense.
    For those who started it there is a personal deadication. They have employed
    themselves through the non-profit. They have to pay the rent, bills, etc.
    Getting people to give the org money as we are seeing is very difficult
    (over 50% want Rhizome to be free)

    Non-profits are very hard to run. Oh and now the Republicans completely
    control government. Great!!!!! Now non-profits will have an even harder time
    getting money and maybe if we are lucky Bush will abolish the NEA.

    Did anybody Vote?

    Lets continue this conversation.
    Mark thank you for your input and I understand your concerns.

    Cheers
    Lee

    on 11/6/02 9:55 AM, joseph (yes) at joseph@electrichands.com wrote:

    > Is Rhizome a vanity project for a select few or is meant to be a large
    > organization growing to support networked art and artists?
    >
    > Convert the community efforts and obvious volunteerism into a large
    > "worthwhile" campaign to raise money or get off the pot.
    >
    > (disgusted with everything today)
    >
    > joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
    > frank + lyn - mc + El + roy
    >
    > go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
    > call me 646 279 2309
    >
    >
    >
    > Quoting Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com>:
    >
    >> Mark & list
    >> I don't think anyone disputes that a fund raiser would
    >> be anything but token financially.
    >> I've certainly expressed myself in favour of fees and
    >> am willing to pay in order to keep Rhizome viable.
    >> Neither do I think anyone was asking for it to be an
    >> 'official' Rhizome project.
    >> What it would do is to provided excellent publicity
    >> for Rhizome's cause and show the
    >> solidarity of the Rhizome 'community', which might
    >> just impress potential funders.
    >> Unfortunately I think the negative tone of your mail
    >> will effectivley act as a spoiler in terms of a call
    >> for work on this list from as wide a range of known
    >> and unknown artists as would have been possible.
    >> I hope I'm wrong -I'd like the thing to happen and if
    >> people are up for it then they should
    >> post to that effect.
    >> I can't help feeling though in this instance that an
    >> appeal to 'the Rhizome community' was good insofar as
    >> it obtained an endorsement of fees but that it wasn't
    >> *really* intended to engender a wide and self starting
    >> debate or activity from Rhizome members.
    >> A pity.
    >> Michael
    >>
    >> --- Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org> wrote:
    >>> At 03:49 PM 11/5/2002 +0000, leewells@bb19.net
    >>> wrote:
    >>>> I agree.
    >>>> One thing we do need to consider is file size
    >>> limits.
    >>>> If we are going to use a cd that doesn't leave us
    >>> that much
    >>>> room, I guess we could upgrade to dvd.
    >>>>
    >>>> Once the official call of artists is relieced. Who
    >>> will manage the
    >>>> submissions? What would be the best way of
    >>> organizing the content? I was
    >>>> thinking all submitted content should be housed on
    >>> individual urls
    >>>> provided by the artists. Then we would only have to
    >>> arrange and organize
    >>>> the links. One submission per artist or group of
    >>> artists.
    >>>>
    >>>> Anyways...I'm at work and have to go.
    >>>> Let keep it rolling.
    >>>>
    >>>> Mark, do you have any thoughts on this. Ways of
    >>> making this run smoothly.
    >>>
    >>> Okay, here are my thoughts on the charity CD idea.
    >>> First, I really
    >>> appreciate the sentiment behind it. It's wonderful
    >>> that you want to support
    >>> Rhizome.org and are willing to donate your time and
    >>> art work.
    >>>
    >>> That said, I think it will take a lot of work to
    >>> pull it off. And even if
    >>> it turns out great, it will be very hard to sell
    >>> enough copies to earn a
    >>> significant amount of money. So although it may be
    >>> worth while as an end in
    >>> itself, I don't think it makes sense on a strictly
    >>> financial level as a
    >>> fundraising tool. That's why I don't want to devote
    >>> any of our very limited
    >>> resources to this project. Sorry to be a wet
    >>> blanket, but it's my job to
    >>> make these kinds of decisions.
    >>>
    >>> Because we are a registered not-for-profit
    >>> organization, we must follow the
    >>> US Charities laws, and there are a lot of them that
    >>> pertain to this kind of
    >>> thing. As we learned when we got involved in web
    >>> hosting and online
    >>> education, you have to be very careful when it comes
    >>> to earned income. We
    >>> can't afford to compromise our charitable status. So
    >>> we'd either have to
    >>> run the project ourselves (to make sure it complies
    >>> with all the US
    >>> Charities laws) or maintain a totally arms-length
    >>> relationship. Since we
    >>> don't think it would be a good use of our resources,
    >>> our only option is to
    >>> have nothing to do with it.
    >>>
    >>> Kinda sucks, but that's the way it is. If you still
    >>> want to go ahead with,
    >>> I suggest you handle it as follows:
    >>>
    >>> + Set up an independent group to produce/distribute
    >>> a CD-ROM.
    >>> + Manage all of your own income and expenses,
    >>> including any in-kind donations.
    >>> + Make it clear to all potential supporters of the
    >>> production and buyers of
    >>> the CD-ROM that you are the group that is producing
    >>> the product, and that
    >>> Rhizome is in no way involved in this production.
    >>> + Then, if you choose to, you can say that a % of
    >>> the proceeds will be
    >>> donated to Rhizome.org and you (the group) can make
    >>> a donation to Rhizome,
    >>> and whoever the donation comes from will get the tax
    >>> credit.
    >>>
    >>> This is the cleanest way to do it. You have control
    >>> of what you want to do,
    >>> we don't have to expend our scant resources
    >>> overseeing it, and we also
    >>> don't risk endangering our charitable status.
    >>>
    >>> Best,
    >>>
    >>> Mark
    >>>
    >>> + be me
    >>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >>> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    >>> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    >>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    >>> +
    >>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
    >>> out in the
    >>> Membership Agreement available online at
    >> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >>
    >>
    >> =====
    >> http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
    >>
    >> __________________________________________________
    >> Do you Yahoo!?
    >> HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
    >> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
  • MTAA | Wed Nov 6th 2002 1 a.m.
    i think that mark was saying that rhizome couldn't give any resources
    to the project or sell it directly.

    to mark:
    could the project use rhizome's logo and state that all proceeds will
    go to rhizome?

    >> so Jess would you be up for being on t'committee?
    >Michael,
    >I happy to but I still can't seem to get a handle on what you guys are
    >proposing....
    >MT's email confused me too are rhizome up for this or not?
    > If you want to do the collaborative file/share idea I have a domain
    >doing bugger all (nowhere.tv) that I would be happy to 'donate'. I can
    >give the ftp details out to anyone who fancies...
    >jess. o
    >/^ rssgallery.com
    > ][
    >
    >
    >
    >+ be me
    >-> post: list@rhizome.org
    >-> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    >+
    >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php

    --
    <twhid>
    http://www.mteww.com
    </twhid>
  • joseph mcelroy | Wed Nov 6th 2002 1 a.m.
    > Yes it is. Do you have what it takes to be a SuperUser?

    do we?

    joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
    frank + lyn - mc + El + roy

    go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
    call me 646 279 2309

    Quoting "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+" <death@zaphod.terminal.org>:

    > On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, joseph (yes) wrote:
    >
    > > Is Rhizome a vanity project for a select few
    >
    > Yes it is. Do you have what it takes to be a SuperUser?
    >
    > `, . ` `k a r e i' ? ' D42
  • joseph mcelroy | Wed Nov 6th 2002 1 a.m.
    The thing I don't understand is this... in 1995 Frank Palaia curated an
    exhibition for the Alternative Museum called the Luminous Image. I worked with
    the images for the show and created the first musuem catalog entirely on CD
    Rom. Both Frank and the Alternative Museum sold the catalogs to make money.
    They also were sold by the Guggenheim and other venues. The Alternative Museum
    is a 501C3 organization.

    The Alternative Museum had almost no input into the process nor expended any
    resources. They only reviewed the final product prior to production.

    So this is essentially a similar process to what we are discussing. Why does
    it cause problems for Rhizome?

    joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
    frank + lyn - mc + El + roy

    go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
    call me 646 279 2309

    Quoting "t.whid" <twhid@mteww.com>:

    > i think that mark was saying that rhizome couldn't give any resources
    > to the project or sell it directly.
    >
    > to mark:
    > could the project use rhizome's logo and state that all proceeds will
    > go to rhizome?
    >
    > >> so Jess would you be up for being on t'committee?
    > >Michael,
    > >I happy to but I still can't seem to get a handle on what you guys are
    > >proposing....
    > >MT's email confused me too are rhizome up for this or not?
    > > If you want to do the collaborative file/share idea I have a domain
    > >doing bugger all (nowhere.tv) that I would be happy to 'donate'. I can
    > >give the ftp details out to anyone who fancies...
    > >jess. o
    > >/^ rssgallery.com
    > > ][
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >+ be me
    > >-> post: list@rhizome.org
    > >-> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > >-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > >+
    > >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > >Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
    > --
    > <twhid>
    > http://www.mteww.com
    > </twhid>
    > + be me
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
  • Rhizomer | Thu Nov 7th 2002 1 a.m.
    I am also surprised by this campaign ! when I can read at new langton art
    center "day jobs" exhibition this :
    "
    Mark Tribe
    Projects

    Day: Rhizome.org http://www.rhizome.org
    Night: Rhizome.org http://www.rhizome.org
    Mark Tribe's art work featured in this exhibition can be seen as performance
    as much as media art. Rhizome.org is an online community that Mark describes
    as "social sculpture" in the tradition of Bueys. Here, product is not as
    important as process, though it would be a disservice to abstract
    Rhizome.org to the level of a conceptual art prank when, in fact, it has had
    a very real effect on the social lives of many new media artists and offers
    many practical services. This close-knit integration of a conceptual social
    work combined, inextricably, with practical real-world services is exemplary
    of how new media artists are sometimes able to play and work in the same
    media. Since media is the built environment that we now live in full-time
    (as opposed to a weekend leisure destination), artists find it possible to
    move into the "main house" -- sometimes without anyone noticing them sneak
    in.

    -- Richard Rinehart"

    on day jobs exhibitions statement !

    what's up ?
    Rhizome campaign : is it a campaign for a non profit organization? or for
    mark Tribe artpiece ?
    Could you mind to make it clear ?

    Valery Grancher
  • joseph mcelroy | Thu Nov 7th 2002 1 a.m.
    like i said - a vanity project - several directors of non-profits I have met
    still want to maintain their place as artists ... only the non-profit suffers
    for the lack of commitment, cause at the end of the day, the director needs to
    give their entire time to building the non-profit or it stagnates.

    A $50,000 a year day-job, posing as an art-project is not a bad gig and fun
    while it lasts. For the director that is...

    joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
    frank + lyn - mc + El + roy

    go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
    call me 646 279 2309

    Quoting valery grancher <vgranger@imaginet.fr>:

    > I am also surprised by this campaign ! when I can read at new langton art
    > center "day jobs" exhibition this :
    > "
    > Mark Tribe
    > Projects
    >
    > Day: Rhizome.org http://www.rhizome.org
    > Night: Rhizome.org http://www.rhizome.org
    > Mark Tribe's art work featured in this exhibition can be seen as performance
    > as much as media art. Rhizome.org is an online community that Mark describes
    > as "social sculpture" in the tradition of Bueys. Here, product is not as
    > important as process, though it would be a disservice to abstract
    > Rhizome.org to the level of a conceptual art prank when, in fact, it has had
    > a very real effect on the social lives of many new media artists and offers
    > many practical services. This close-knit integration of a conceptual social
    > work combined, inextricably, with practical real-world services is exemplary
    > of how new media artists are sometimes able to play and work in the same
    > media. Since media is the built environment that we now live in full-time
    > (as opposed to a weekend leisure destination), artists find it possible to
    > move into the "main house" -- sometimes without anyone noticing them sneak
    > in.
    >
    > -- Richard Rinehart"
    >
    > on day jobs exhibitions statement !
    >
    > what's up ?
    > Rhizome campaign : is it a campaign for a non profit organization? or for
    > mark Tribe artpiece ?
    > Could you mind to make it clear ?
    >
    >
    >
    > Valery Grancher
    >
    >
    > + be me
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
  • Mark Tribe | Thu Nov 7th 2002 1 a.m.
    At 03:40 PM 11/6/2002 -0500, t.whid wrote:
    >i think that mark was saying that rhizome couldn't give any resources to
    >the project or sell it directly.

    exactly. i really do appreciate the generosity behind this and want to
    thank everyone who is interested in volunteering for the project and
    helping to raise funds for rhizome. i'm just saying that the best way to do
    it is independently.

    >to mark:
    >could the project use rhizome's logo and state that all proceeds will go
    >to rhizome?

    you can certainly say that all or some of the proceeds will go to support
    rhizome.org, but using the rhizome logo may lead people to believe that
    it's a rhizome project. so maybe better not to.

    i'm sorry if my reaction has seemed dismissive. if you want to do something
    to support rhizome, great! go for it!
  • brad brace | Thu Nov 7th 2002 1 a.m.
    On Thu, 7 Nov 2002, valery grancher wrote:

    > ... artists find it possible to move into the "main house"
    > -- sometimes without anyone noticing them sneak in...

    They haven't "snuck-in:" they serve a (very short-term,
    exclusive) purpose -- a purpose always at-odds with
    substantial, progressive improvements for individual
    artists and significant art.

    The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project >>>> since 1994 <<<<

    + + + serial ftp://ftp.eskimo.com/u/b/bbrace
    + + + eccentric ftp://ftp.idiom.com/users/bbrace
    + + + continuous hotline://artlyin.ftr.va.com.au
    + + + hypermodern ftp://ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace
    + + + imagery ftp://ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace

    News: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr alt.binaries.pictures.misc
    alt.binaries.pictures.fine-art.misc alt.12hr

    . 12hr email
    subscriptions => http://bbrace.laughingsquid.net/buy-into.html

    . Other | Mirror: http://www.eskimo.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html
    Projects | Reverse Solidus: http://bbrace.laughingsquid.net/
    | http://bbrace.net

    { brad brace } <<<<< bbrace@eskimo.com >>>> ~finger for pgp
  • D42 Kandinskij | Thu Nov 7th 2002 1 a.m.
    Mark Tribe needs to pay the real_ artists, not the other way around.
    Seeing as how rhizome is touted as a cutting-edge new-new etc.
    thing, the non-profitters at rhizome should be the movers and shakers
    delivering the goods of 'new' ways of support. Something with which
    many art web-sites have been occuppied with, without resorting to art
    grants. And evenso, I seem to remember rhizome being pitched as success
    (unlike other dot.coms). Instead, what is gotten is reversal to
    attempting to milk the community for all its worth:

    first: their work
    second: their money
    third: their ideas on how to make money

    And again this resorts to current tendency in art circles:
    subjugation of the individual to ome 'collective'--but funny how in the
    end only a 'select few' get the accolades. And then of course the
    ones taking advantage pass themselves on as 'architects' 'leaders'
    etc. Nevermind that the lot of you act out on this imbecilic,
    top-of-the-herd game. Top of the herd is still herd.

    Intelligent evolution dictates otherwise: fierce independent
    undividuality--and a society that supports that.

    But nobody really_ wants that. Or as Sparctacus illustrates,
    the herd wants freedom not, it desires endless suffering,
    pseudo-hierarchical power struggles etc.

    And the spirit gives man what he REALLY wants,
    not what he THINKS he wants. Tralela.
  • Rhizomer | Fri Nov 8th 2002 1 a.m.
    as a contribitor last 2 years I would like to clarify one point to make my
    decision this year :

    Rhizome campaign : is it a campaign for a non profit organization? or for
    mark Tribe artpiece ?
    Could you mind to make it clear ?
    I'm asking this regarding your statement on "day jobs" exhbition website at
    new langton art center in San Francisco .... I'm really surprised by it...
    (hereafter)

    I already sent a message to you and I didn't get any answer ... am i right ?
    could you mind to clarify this point ?

    hereafter on day jobs exhibitions statement !

    Mark Tribe
    Projects

    Day: Rhizome.org http://www.rhizome.org
    Night: Rhizome.org http://www.rhizome.org
    Mark Tribe's art work featured in this exhibition can be seen as performance
    as much as media art. Rhizome.org is an online community that Mark describes
    as "social sculpture" in the tradition of Bueys. Here, product is not as
    important as process, though it would be a disservice to abstract
    Rhizome.org to the level of a conceptual art prank when, in fact, it has had
    a very real effect on the social lives of many new media artists and offers
    many practical services. This close-knit integration of a conceptual social
    work combined, inextricably, with practical real-world services is exemplary
    of how new media artists are sometimes able to play and work in the same
    media. Since media is the built environment that we now live in full-time
    (as opposed to a weekend leisure destination), artists find it possible to
    move into the "main house" -- sometimes without anyone noticing them sneak
    in.

    -- Richard Rinehart"

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Mark Tribe" <mt@rhizome.org>
    To: <list@rhizome.org>
    Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 6:02 PM
    Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: Re: Charity CD Project

    > At 03:40 PM 11/6/2002 -0500, t.whid wrote:
    > >i think that mark was saying that rhizome couldn't give any resources to
    > >the project or sell it directly.
    >
    > exactly. i really do appreciate the generosity behind this and want to
    > thank everyone who is interested in volunteering for the project and
    > helping to raise funds for rhizome. i'm just saying that the best way to
    do
    > it is independently.
    >
    > >to mark:
    > >could the project use rhizome's logo and state that all proceeds will go
    > >to rhizome?
    >
    > you can certainly say that all or some of the proceeds will go to support
    > rhizome.org, but using the rhizome logo may lead people to believe that
    > it's a rhizome project. so maybe better not to.
    >
    > i'm sorry if my reaction has seemed dismissive. if you want to do
    something
    > to support rhizome, great! go for it!
    >
    > + be me
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
    >
    >
  • MTAA | Fri Nov 8th 2002 1 a.m.
    the two aren't mutually exclusive. rhizome could be both a non-profit
    org and a mark tribe art piece. that's what's said in the statement
    below:

    though it would be a disservice to abstract
    >Rhizome.org to the level of a conceptual art prank when, in fact, it has had
    >a very real effect on the social lives of many new media artists and offers
    >many practical services. This close-knit integration of a conceptual social
    >work combined, inextricably, with practical real-world services is exemplary
    >of how new media artists are sometimes able to play and work in the same
    >media.

    rhizome exists in both conceptual spaces. this feature, coexistence
    in two different conceptual realms, is prevalent in some of the more
    advanced contemporary art imo.

    what's with the this-or-that demand?

    >as a contribitor last 2 years I would like to clarify one point to make my
    >decision this year :
    >
    >Rhizome campaign : is it a campaign for a non profit organization? or for
    >mark Tribe artpiece ?
    >Could you mind to make it clear ?
    >I'm asking this regarding your statement on "day jobs" exhbition website at
    >new langton art center in San Francisco .... I'm really surprised by it...
    >(hereafter)
    >
    >I already sent a message to you and I didn't get any answer ... am i right ?
    >could you mind to clarify this point ?
    >
    >hereafter on day jobs exhibitions statement !
    >
    >Mark Tribe
    >Projects
    >
    >Day: Rhizome.org http://www.rhizome.org
    >Night: Rhizome.org http://www.rhizome.org
    >Mark Tribe's art work featured in this exhibition can be seen as performance
    >as much as media art. Rhizome.org is an online community that Mark describes
    >as "social sculpture" in the tradition of Bueys. Here, product is not as
    >important as process, though it would be a disservice to abstract
    >Rhizome.org to the level of a conceptual art prank when, in fact, it has had
    >a very real effect on the social lives of many new media artists and offers
    >many practical services. This close-knit integration of a conceptual social
    >work combined, inextricably, with practical real-world services is exemplary
    >of how new media artists are sometimes able to play and work in the same
    >media. Since media is the built environment that we now live in full-time
    >(as opposed to a weekend leisure destination), artists find it possible to
    >move into the "main house" -- sometimes without anyone noticing them sneak
    >in.
    >
    >-- Richard Rinehart"
    >
    >
    >
    >----- Original Message -----
    >From: "Mark Tribe" <mt@rhizome.org>
    >To: <list@rhizome.org>
    >Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 6:02 PM
    >Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: Re: Charity CD Project
    >
    >
    >> At 03:40 PM 11/6/2002 -0500, t.whid wrote:
    >> >i think that mark was saying that rhizome couldn't give any resources to
    >> >the project or sell it directly.
    >>
    >> exactly. i really do appreciate the generosity behind this and want to
    >> thank everyone who is interested in volunteering for the project and
    >> helping to raise funds for rhizome. i'm just saying that the best way to
    >do
    >> it is independently.
    >>
    >> >to mark:
    >> >could the project use rhizome's logo and state that all proceeds will go
    >> >to rhizome?
    >>
    >> you can certainly say that all or some of the proceeds will go to support
    >> rhizome.org, but using the rhizome logo may lead people to believe that
    >> it's a rhizome project. so maybe better not to.
    >>
    >> i'm sorry if my reaction has seemed dismissive. if you want to do
    >something
    >> to support rhizome, great! go for it!
    >>
    >> + be me
    >> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    >> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    >> +
    >> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >
    >
    >+ be me
    >-> post: list@rhizome.org
    >-> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    >+
    >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php

    --
    <twhid>
    http://www.mteww.com
    </twhid>
  • joseph mcelroy | Fri Nov 8th 2002 1 a.m.
    > what's with the this-or-that demand?

    When someone starts the money pleading process for an organization/community,
    the implied contract is that the organization/community is more important than
    personal agendas. If there is an agenda to create personal art work on the
    backs of others, then it seems that some people find concern in this.

    In concrete form, it would be like a director running a capital campaign that
    espouses building a new wing to the museum when in fact the money will be used
    to build a place for him to live.

    An organization/community needs are different than the needs driven by an
    individual artists artistic vision. The former are practical, the latter
    ideal. Our money needs to go to a practical vision, not an ideal one.

    joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
    frank + lyn - mc + El + roy

    go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
    call me 646 279 2309

    Quoting "t.whid" <twhid@mteww.com>:

    > the two aren't mutually exclusive. rhizome could be both a non-profit
    > org and a mark tribe art piece. that's what's said in the statement
    > below:
    >
    > though it would be a disservice to abstract
    > >Rhizome.org to the level of a conceptual art prank when, in fact, it has had
    > >a very real effect on the social lives of many new media artists and offers
    > >many practical services. This close-knit integration of a conceptual social
    > >work combined, inextricably, with practical real-world services is exemplary
    > >of how new media artists are sometimes able to play and work in the same
    > >media.
    >
    > rhizome exists in both conceptual spaces. this feature, coexistence
    > in two different conceptual realms, is prevalent in some of the more
    > advanced contemporary art imo.
    >
    > what's with the this-or-that demand?
    >
    >
    > >as a contribitor last 2 years I would like to clarify one point to make my
    > >decision this year :
    > >
    > >Rhizome campaign : is it a campaign for a non profit organization? or for
    > >mark Tribe artpiece ?
    > >Could you mind to make it clear ?
    > >I'm asking this regarding your statement on "day jobs" exhbition website at
    > >new langton art center in San Francisco .... I'm really surprised by it...
    > >(hereafter)
    > >
    > >I already sent a message to you and I didn't get any answer ... am i right ?
    > >could you mind to clarify this point ?
    > >
    > >hereafter on day jobs exhibitions statement !
    > >
    > >Mark Tribe
    > >Projects
    > >
    > >Day: Rhizome.org http://www.rhizome.org
    > >Night: Rhizome.org http://www.rhizome.org
    > >Mark Tribe's art work featured in this exhibition can be seen as performance
    > >as much as media art. Rhizome.org is an online community that Mark describes
    > >as "social sculpture" in the tradition of Bueys. Here, product is not as
    > >important as process, though it would be a disservice to abstract
    > >Rhizome.org to the level of a conceptual art prank when, in fact, it has had
    > >a very real effect on the social lives of many new media artists and offers
    > >many practical services. This close-knit integration of a conceptual social
    > >work combined, inextricably, with practical real-world services is exemplary
    > >of how new media artists are sometimes able to play and work in the same
    > >media. Since media is the built environment that we now live in full-time
    > >(as opposed to a weekend leisure destination), artists find it possible to
    > >move into the "main house" -- sometimes without anyone noticing them sneak
    > >in.
    > >
    > >-- Richard Rinehart"
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >----- Original Message -----
    > >From: "Mark Tribe" <mt@rhizome.org>
    > >To: <list@rhizome.org>
    > >Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 6:02 PM
    > >Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: Re: Charity CD Project
    > >
    > >
    > >> At 03:40 PM 11/6/2002 -0500, t.whid wrote:
    > >> >i think that mark was saying that rhizome couldn't give any resources to
    > >> >the project or sell it directly.
    > >>
    > >> exactly. i really do appreciate the generosity behind this and want to
    > >> thank everyone who is interested in volunteering for the project and
    > >> helping to raise funds for rhizome. i'm just saying that the best way to
    > >do
    > >> it is independently.
    > >>
    > >> >to mark:
    > >> >could the project use rhizome's logo and state that all proceeds will go
    > >> >to rhizome?
    > >>
    > >> you can certainly say that all or some of the proceeds will go to support
    > >> rhizome.org, but using the rhizome logo may lead people to believe that
    > >> it's a rhizome project. so maybe better not to.
    > >>
    > >> i'm sorry if my reaction has seemed dismissive. if you want to do
    > >something
    > >> to support rhizome, great! go for it!
    > >>
    > >> + be me
    > >> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > >> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > >> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > >> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > >> +
    > >> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > >> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >
    > >
    > >+ be me
    > >-> post: list@rhizome.org
    > >-> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > >-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > >+
    > >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > >Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
    > --
    > <twhid>
    > http://www.mteww.com
    > </twhid>
    > + be me
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
  • josh zeidner | Sun Nov 10th 2002 1 a.m.
    --- "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+"
    <death@zaphod.terminal.org> wrote:
    > Mark Tribe needs to pay the real_ artists, not the
    > other way around.
    > Seeing as how rhizome is touted as a cutting-edge
    > new-new etc.
    > thing, the non-profitters at rhizome should be the
    > movers and shakers
    > delivering the goods of 'new' ways of support.
    > Something with which
    > many art web-sites have been occuppied with, without
    > resorting to art
    > grants. And evenso, I seem to remember rhizome being
    > pitched as success
    > (unlike other dot.coms). Instead, what is gotten is
    > reversal to
    > attempting to milk the community for all its worth:
    >
    > first: their work
    > second: their money
    > third: their ideas on how to make money
    >
    > And again this resorts to current tendency in art
    > circles:
    > subjugation of the individual to ome
    > 'collective'--but funny how in the
    > end only a 'select few' get the accolades. And then
    > of course the
    > ones taking advantage pass themselves on as
    > 'architects' 'leaders'
    > etc. Nevermind that the lot of you act out on this
    > imbecilic,
    > top-of-the-herd game. Top of the herd is still herd.
    >
    > Intelligent evolution dictates otherwise: fierce
    > independent
    > undividuality--and a society that supports that.
    >
    > But nobody really_ wants that. Or as Sparctacus
    > illustrates,
    > the herd wants freedom not, it desires endless
    > suffering,
    > pseudo-hierarchical power struggles etc.

    well thats what Spartacus say, what does Athena
    say? haven't you learned anything?

    >
    > And the spirit gives man what he REALLY wants,
    > not what he THINKS he wants. Tralela.

    q: which way does the wind blow?

    a: out your ass.

    -josh

    __________________________________________________
    Do you Yahoo!?
    U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
    http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
  • D42 Kandinskij | Tue Nov 12th 2002 1 a.m.
    On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, josh zeidner wrote:

    > well thats what Spartacus say, what does Athena
    > say? haven't you learned anything?

    Keep your sub-mediocre meaningless drivel to yourself, Joshua.

    > > And the spirit gives man what he REALLY wants,
    > > not what he THINKS he wants. Tralela.
    >
    >
    > q: which way does the wind blow?
    >
    yes, that would be valid for you.

    But then again, this is what's been aboout all along, hasn't it?
    I am not interested in poor Josh's 'language' 'knowledge' drivel
    ais it is flat meaningless noise, and off it goes.
  • Francis Hwang | Wed Nov 13th 2002 1 a.m.
    So Mark decided to call Rhizome a work of art. I don't see what's the big
    deal.

    You can argue over whether or not the idea of "social sculpture" is valid
    artistically or not. But it would be a mistake to imply that Mark's artistic
    ambitions are compromising his ability to be an arts administrator. Mostly I
    know this because here in our tiny Rhiz office, I sit next to him, and I
    overhear a lot of his phone conversations. And I talk to him every day. And,
    being the sysadmin, I make sure to read all his email. (er, kidding, Mark.)
    Mostly, he spends his time here in the office on boring arts-admin stuff,
    the sort of things that people go to art school to _avoid_. Worrying about
    grant applications, cash-flow, conversations with board members, how to make
    the site and its related services better to the Rhizome community, etc.,
    etc. He deals with a lot of paperwork, and he seems to really know his
    spreadsheets.

    So please don't think Rhizome is basically Mark Tribe's little vanity
    project. It's not. We're all working hard here to make it a useful resource
    for its community. I hope we're succeeding. I'm sure you'll all let us know
    if we're not.

    Francis

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "valery grancher" <vgranger@imaginet.fr>
    To: "Mark Tribe" <mt@rhizome.org>; <list@rhizome.org>
    Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 2:19 AM
    Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: RE: Re: Charity CD Project

    > I am also surprised by this campaign ! when I can read at new langton art
    > center "day jobs" exhibition this :
    > "
    > Mark Tribe
    > Projects
    >
    > Day: Rhizome.org http://www.rhizome.org
    > Night: Rhizome.org http://www.rhizome.org
    > Mark Tribe's art work featured in this exhibition can be seen as
    performance
    > as much as media art. Rhizome.org is an online community that Mark
    describes
    > as "social sculpture" in the tradition of Bueys. Here, product is not as
    > important as process, though it would be a disservice to abstract
    > Rhizome.org to the level of a conceptual art prank when, in fact, it has
    had
    > a very real effect on the social lives of many new media artists and
    offers
    > many practical services. This close-knit integration of a conceptual
    social
    > work combined, inextricably, with practical real-world services is
    exemplary
    > of how new media artists are sometimes able to play and work in the same
    > media. Since media is the built environment that we now live in full-time
    > (as opposed to a weekend leisure destination), artists find it possible to
    > move into the "main house" -- sometimes without anyone noticing them sneak
    > in.
    >
    > -- Richard Rinehart"
    >
    > on day jobs exhibitions statement !
    >
    > what's up ?
    > Rhizome campaign : is it a campaign for a non profit organization? or for
    > mark Tribe artpiece ?
    > Could you mind to make it clear ?
    >
    >
    >
    > Valery Grancher
    >
    >
    > + be me
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
  • Rhizomer | Wed Nov 13th 2002 1 a.m.
    1- Before I was thinking like you but since a while severals sign has
    apperared:
    Mark Tribe is a part of net art jury in ars electronica the result is
    several rhizome member are getting a prize and the golden nika is going to
    another rhizome manager alex galloway with carnivore project ....
    ars electronica 2002

    2- day jobs exhibition all artist shows their real work and mark tribe
    describes rhizome as a personnal art project

    3- rhizome is giving grant to artist, who won? again rhizome staff ....

    so what would we think ?

    I'm not naive, I just have doubt now regarding what's going on ....

    That's why I ask this question to have the whole truth cos I cannot accept
    to have this kind of doubt ....and I can say that I'm not alone to think
    like that cos we have already exchange emails in between us (many persons
    who have doubt like me) to make it clear ....
    so ?
    I'm talking not for others but personnaly

    I just guess that it was not really so smart and good to have made this
    statement in day jobs before making a campaign for raising money ....

    I have no doubt rgarding the worl done, but as a manager people whould take
    care about what they say and write, I'm exactly talking about politics ....

    take care about this ...

    on my side I will wait and see

    Valery

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Francis Hwang" <francis@rhizome.org>
    To: <list@rhizome.org>
    Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:09 PM
    Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: RE: Re: Charity CD Project

    > So Mark decided to call Rhizome a work of art. I don't see what's the big
    > deal.
    >
    > You can argue over whether or not the idea of "social sculpture" is valid
    > artistically or not. But it would be a mistake to imply that Mark's
    artistic
    > ambitions are compromising his ability to be an arts administrator. Mostly
    I
    > know this because here in our tiny Rhiz office, I sit next to him, and I
    > overhear a lot of his phone conversations. And I talk to him every day.
    And,
    > being the sysadmin, I make sure to read all his email. (er, kidding,
    Mark.)
    > Mostly, he spends his time here in the office on boring arts-admin stuff,
    > the sort of things that people go to art school to _avoid_. Worrying about
    > grant applications, cash-flow, conversations with board members, how to
    make
    > the site and its related services better to the Rhizome community, etc.,
    > etc. He deals with a lot of paperwork, and he seems to really know his
    > spreadsheets.
    >
    > So please don't think Rhizome is basically Mark Tribe's little vanity
    > project. It's not. We're all working hard here to make it a useful
    resource
    > for its community. I hope we're succeeding. I'm sure you'll all let us
    know
    > if we're not.
    >
    > Francis
    >
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "valery grancher" <vgranger@imaginet.fr>
    > To: "Mark Tribe" <mt@rhizome.org>; <list@rhizome.org>
    > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 2:19 AM
    > Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: RE: Re: Charity CD Project
    >
    >
    > > I am also surprised by this campaign ! when I can read at new langton
    art
    > > center "day jobs" exhibition this :
    > > "
    > > Mark Tribe
    > > Projects
    > >
    > > Day: Rhizome.org http://www.rhizome.org
    > > Night: Rhizome.org http://www.rhizome.org
    > > Mark Tribe's art work featured in this exhibition can be seen as
    > performance
    > > as much as media art. Rhizome.org is an online community that Mark
    > describes
    > > as "social sculpture" in the tradition of Bueys. Here, product is not as
    > > important as process, though it would be a disservice to abstract
    > > Rhizome.org to the level of a conceptual art prank when, in fact, it has
    > had
    > > a very real effect on the social lives of many new media artists and
    > offers
    > > many practical services. This close-knit integration of a conceptual
    > social
    > > work combined, inextricably, with practical real-world services is
    > exemplary
    > > of how new media artists are sometimes able to play and work in the same
    > > media. Since media is the built environment that we now live in
    full-time
    > > (as opposed to a weekend leisure destination), artists find it possible
    to
    > > move into the "main house" -- sometimes without anyone noticing them
    sneak
    > > in.
    > >
    > > -- Richard Rinehart"
    > >
    > > on day jobs exhibitions statement !
    > >
    > > what's up ?
    > > Rhizome campaign : is it a campaign for a non profit organization? or
    for
    > > mark Tribe artpiece ?
    > > Could you mind to make it clear ?
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Valery Grancher
    > >
    > >
    > > + be me
    > > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > > +
    > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    > >
    >
    > + the best is the enemy of the good
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
    >
    >
  • marc garrett | Wed Nov 13th 2002 1 a.m.
    I kind of agree on this bit...below

    >I just guess that it was not really so smart and good to have made this
    >statement in day jobs before making a campaign for raising money ....

    but we all make mistakes

    marc

    > 1- Before I was thinking like you but since a while severals sign has
    > apperared:
    > Mark Tribe is a part of net art jury in ars electronica the result is
    > several rhizome member are getting a prize and the golden nika is going to
    > another rhizome manager alex galloway with carnivore project ....
    > ars electronica 2002
    >
    > 2- day jobs exhibition all artist shows their real work and mark tribe
    > describes rhizome as a personnal art project
    >
    > 3- rhizome is giving grant to artist, who won? again rhizome staff ....
    >
    > so what would we think ?
    >
    > I'm not naive, I just have doubt now regarding what's going on ....
    >
    > That's why I ask this question to have the whole truth cos I cannot accept
    > to have this kind of doubt ....and I can say that I'm not alone to think
    > like that cos we have already exchange emails in between us (many persons
    > who have doubt like me) to make it clear ....
    > so ?
    > I'm talking not for others but personnaly
    >
    > I just guess that it was not really so smart and good to have made this
    > statement in day jobs before making a campaign for raising money ....
    >
    > I have no doubt rgarding the worl done, but as a manager people whould
    take
    > care about what they say and write, I'm exactly talking about politics
    ....
    >
    > take care about this ...
    >
    > on my side I will wait and see
    >
    > Valery
    >
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "Francis Hwang" <francis@rhizome.org>
    > To: <list@rhizome.org>
    > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:09 PM
    > Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: RE: Re: Charity CD Project
    >
    >
    > > So Mark decided to call Rhizome a work of art. I don't see what's the
    big
    > > deal.
    > >
    > > You can argue over whether or not the idea of "social sculpture" is
    valid
    > > artistically or not. But it would be a mistake to imply that Mark's
    > artistic
    > > ambitions are compromising his ability to be an arts administrator.
    Mostly
    > I
    > > know this because here in our tiny Rhiz office, I sit next to him, and I
    > > overhear a lot of his phone conversations. And I talk to him every day.
    > And,
    > > being the sysadmin, I make sure to read all his email. (er, kidding,
    > Mark.)
    > > Mostly, he spends his time here in the office on boring arts-admin
    stuff,
    > > the sort of things that people go to art school to _avoid_. Worrying
    about
    > > grant applications, cash-flow, conversations with board members, how to
    > make
    > > the site and its related services better to the Rhizome community, etc.,
    > > etc. He deals with a lot of paperwork, and he seems to really know his
    > > spreadsheets.
    > >
    > > So please don't think Rhizome is basically Mark Tribe's little vanity
    > > project. It's not. We're all working hard here to make it a useful
    > resource
    > > for its community. I hope we're succeeding. I'm sure you'll all let us
    > know
    > > if we're not.
    > >
    > > Francis
    > >
    > >
    > > ----- Original Message -----
    > > From: "valery grancher" <vgranger@imaginet.fr>
    > > To: "Mark Tribe" <mt@rhizome.org>; <list@rhizome.org>
    > > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 2:19 AM
    > > Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: RE: Re: Charity CD Project
    > >
    > >
    > > > I am also surprised by this campaign ! when I can read at new langton
    > art
    > > > center "day jobs" exhibition this :
    > > > "
    > > > Mark Tribe
    > > > Projects
    > > >
    > > > Day: Rhizome.org http://www.rhizome.org
    > > > Night: Rhizome.org http://www.rhizome.org
    > > > Mark Tribe's art work featured in this exhibition can be seen as
    > > performance
    > > > as much as media art. Rhizome.org is an online community that Mark
    > > describes
    > > > as "social sculpture" in the tradition of Bueys. Here, product is not
    as
    > > > important as process, though it would be a disservice to abstract
    > > > Rhizome.org to the level of a conceptual art prank when, in fact, it
    has
    > > had
    > > > a very real effect on the social lives of many new media artists and
    > > offers
    > > > many practical services. This close-knit integration of a conceptual
    > > social
    > > > work combined, inextricably, with practical real-world services is
    > > exemplary
    > > > of how new media artists are sometimes able to play and work in the
    same
    > > > media. Since media is the built environment that we now live in
    > full-time
    > > > (as opposed to a weekend leisure destination), artists find it
    possible
    > to
    > > > move into the "main house" -- sometimes without anyone noticing them
    > sneak
    > > > in.
    > > >
    > > > -- Richard Rinehart"
    > > >
    > > > on day jobs exhibitions statement !
    > > >
    > > > what's up ?
    > > > Rhizome campaign : is it a campaign for a non profit organization? or
    > for
    > > > mark Tribe artpiece ?
    > > > Could you mind to make it clear ?
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Valery Grancher
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > + be me
    > > > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > > > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > > > +
    > > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > > > Membership Agreement available online at
    http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    > > >
    > >
    > > + the best is the enemy of the good
    > > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > > +
    > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
    >
    >
    > + the best is the enemy of the good
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
  • Mark Tribe | Thu Nov 14th 2002 1 a.m.
    Valery's recent emails have contained inaccurate assertions. A few points
    of clarification:

    At 11:01 PM 11/13/2002 +0100, valery grancher wrote:
    >1- Before I was thinking like you but since a while severals sign has
    >apperared:
    >Mark Tribe is a part of net art jury in ars electronica the result is
    >several rhizome member are getting a prize and the golden nika is going to
    >another rhizome manager alex galloway with carnivore project ....
    >ars electronica 2002

    For 2002, I was a nominator for the Prix Ars Electronica "art databases,
    cultural archives, museums, online galleries, reference" sub-category. So I
    didn't nominate Alex Galloway or any other Rhizome members.

    >2- day jobs exhibition all artist shows their real work and mark tribe
    >describes rhizome as a personnal art project

    The text Valery quoted from the day jobs site was was written by Rick
    Rinehart, the curator of the show, not by yours truly. If you review the
    statement I wrote for the show, it's clear that I do not describe Rhizome
    as a personal art project. What I do say is that "I have come increasingly
    to see Rhizome.org as a social sculpture and the work I do there as art work."

    Here's the statement I wrote for the Day Jobs show (also available on the
    Day Jobs web site at
    http://www.newlangtonarts.org/view_event.php?category=Network&archive=1&displayYear 02&&eventId5):

    + + +

    In the 1970s Joseph Beuys used the term social sculpture to describe a kind
    of participatory art work in which speech and ideas are raw materials in
    creating a transformative social space. Beuys' notion of art as a social
    practice--even more radically expansive than Alan Kaprow's interest in
    blurring the boundaries between art and everyday life--remains largely a
    theoretical construct, a goal many artists strive for but rarely attain. It
    is nonetheless a useful lens through which to look at things...

    In 1996 I was living in Berlin, Germany. I had a day job as a web designer
    and was making net art in my spare time. Those were heady days and Berlin
    was teeming with people like me--young artists who were fascinated by the
    Internet and its potential to liberate art from the bounds of real space
    and the old school institutions that existed there. I also knew from my
    trips to Ars Electronica and other new media art festivals that we were not
    alone: the net art meme had replicated globally. So I started an email list
    for the discussion of new media art and called it Rhizome, a term Deleuze
    and Guattari use to describe horizontally distributed, non-hierarchical
    networks. The list grew quickly, and soon took on a life of its own.
    Running Rhizome became my day job, my night job, my only job.

    Today, Rhizome.org is a nonprofit organization based in New York City.
    Through our web site, email lists, commissioning program and events, we
    support the creation, presentation, discussion and preservation of new
    media art. We have five people on staff and 15,000 members in 118
    countries. We get funding from various private foundations and government
    agencies and from hundreds of individuals around the world. Although
    writing grants and doing budgets doesn't feel like art making, I have come
    increasingly to see Rhizome.org as a social sculpture and the work I do
    there as art work.

    + + +

    >3- rhizome is giving grant to artist, who won? again rhizome staff ....

    Of the five artists who received Rhizome commissions this year, none were
    Rhizome staff.

    >so what would we think ?
    >
    >I'm not naive, I just have doubt now regarding what's going on ....
    >
    >That's why I ask this question to have the whole truth cos I cannot accept
    >to have this kind of doubt ....and I can say that I'm not alone to think
    >like that cos we have already exchange emails in between us (many persons
    >who have doubt like me) to make it clear ....
    >so ?
    >I'm talking not for others but personnaly
    >
    >I just guess that it was not really so smart and good to have made this
    >statement in day jobs before making a campaign for raising money ....
    >
    >I have no doubt rgarding the worl done, but as a manager people whould take
    >care about what they say and write, I'm exactly talking about politics ....
    >
    >take care about this ...
    >
    >on my side I will wait and see
    >
    >Valery
    >
    >
    >----- Original Message -----
    >From: "Francis Hwang" <francis@rhizome.org>
    >To: <list@rhizome.org>
    >Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:09 PM
    >Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: RE: Re: Charity CD Project
    >
    >
    > > So Mark decided to call Rhizome a work of art. I don't see what's the big
    > > deal.
    > >
    > > You can argue over whether or not the idea of "social sculpture" is valid
    > > artistically or not. But it would be a mistake to imply that Mark's
    >artistic
    > > ambitions are compromising his ability to be an arts administrator. Mostly
    >I
    > > know this because here in our tiny Rhiz office, I sit next to him, and I
    > > overhear a lot of his phone conversations. And I talk to him every day.
    >And,
    > > being the sysadmin, I make sure to read all his email. (er, kidding,
    >Mark.)
    > > Mostly, he spends his time here in the office on boring arts-admin stuff,
    > > the sort of things that people go to art school to _avoid_. Worrying about
    > > grant applications, cash-flow, conversations with board members, how to
    >make
    > > the site and its related services better to the Rhizome community, etc.,
    > > etc. He deals with a lot of paperwork, and he seems to really know his
    > > spreadsheets.
    > >
    > > So please don't think Rhizome is basically Mark Tribe's little vanity
    > > project. It's not. We're all working hard here to make it a useful
    >resource
    > > for its community. I hope we're succeeding. I'm sure you'll all let us
    >know
    > > if we're not.
    > >
    > > Francis
    > >
    > >
    > > ----- Original Message -----
    > > From: "valery grancher" <vgranger@imaginet.fr>
    > > To: "Mark Tribe" <mt@rhizome.org>; <list@rhizome.org>
    > > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 2:19 AM
    > > Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: RE: Re: Charity CD Project
    > >
    > >
    > > > I am also surprised by this campaign ! when I can read at new langton
    >art
    > > > center "day jobs" exhibition this :
    > > > "
    > > > Mark Tribe
    > > > Projects
    > > >
    > > > Day: Rhizome.org http://www.rhizome.org
    > > > Night: Rhizome.org http://www.rhizome.org
    > > > Mark Tribe's art work featured in this exhibition can be seen as
    > > performance
    > > > as much as media art. Rhizome.org is an online community that Mark
    > > describes
    > > > as "social sculpture" in the tradition of Bueys. Here, product is not as
    > > > important as process, though it would be a disservice to abstract
    > > > Rhizome.org to the level of a conceptual art prank when, in fact, it has
    > > had
    > > > a very real effect on the social lives of many new media artists and
    > > offers
    > > > many practical services. This close-knit integration of a conceptual
    > > social
    > > > work combined, inextricably, with practical real-world services is
    > > exemplary
    > > > of how new media artists are sometimes able to play and work in the same
    > > > media. Since media is the built environment that we now live in
    >full-time
    > > > (as opposed to a weekend leisure destination), artists find it possible
    >to
    > > > move into the "main house" -- sometimes without anyone noticing them
    >sneak
    > > > in.
    > > >
    > > > -- Richard Rinehart"
    > > >
    > > > on day jobs exhibitions statement !
    > > >
    > > > what's up ?
    > > > Rhizome campaign : is it a campaign for a non profit organization? or
    >for
    > > > mark Tribe artpiece ?
    > > > Could you mind to make it clear ?
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Valery Grancher
    > > >
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