Cash on the table

Posted by Lee Wells | Fri Oct 25th 2002 1 a.m.

Who has donated money in the last 24 hours.
I just gave 11$, a minor amount for the years of enjoyment I've got out of
Rhizome. I will continue to donate in the future.

Cheers
Lee

on 10/25/02 7:41 PM, Michael Szpakowski at szpako@yahoo.com wrote:

> Rhizome has been really important to me. I have
> learned a lot from it plus I got a real sense of a
> body of people with similar concerns ( *community*
> always seems a tad twee) engaged in a sometimes vastly
> irritating but always for me addictive dialogue about
> art and it's relationship to the world.
> In my ideal world of course it would be funded
> generously but if it's not then I for one am certainly
> willing to pay a fee to make sure I can get my fix.
> I tend to agree with those who think access to the
> artbase should be general and free( because it's our
> calling card to the wider world). Everything else, in
> this imperfect world, I would be happy to cough up
> for.
> I do take David's point however. It would be a tragedy
> if a world which is happy to fund war but not art
> forced those without spare cash whether in the USA or
> Europe or elsewhere to quit the list and the site.
> So I suggest that those of us who can afford it pay
> double whatever rate is decided so that free
> membership is available to anyone who declares (
> privately) an inability to pay the membership fee and
> that this system is instituted entirely on trust. A
> sort of 'twinning' arrangement.
> $15 (Pall's suggestion) doesn't strike me as an
> unreasonable basic annual fee. Tonight I spent a fiver
> ( =$7.50?) on a bottle of wine. I'd certainly be
> comfortable with paying $30 p.a for something I value
> a lot under the system I've described.
> regards
> Michael
>
>
>
> --- David Goldschmidt <david@personify.tv> wrote:
>> i'll pay. although i think the sliding scale should
>> be based on where one
>> lives. americans and west europeans should pay more
>> while folks from less
>> affluent regions should pay less (or free).
>>
>> david goldschmidt
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mark Tribe" <mt@rhizome.org>
>> To: <list@rhizome.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 5:34 PM
>> Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
>>
>>
>>> Hi Rhizomers:
>>>
>>> I am hoping to start a discussion here on Raw
>> about Rhizome's financial
>>> situation and a possible solution. This email is
>> rather long, but I'd
>>> appreciate it if you'd take the time to read it
>> through, give it some
>>> thought, and let me know what you think.
>>>
>>> First, some background information. It will cost
>> about $400,000 to operate
>>> Rhizome.org this year. Here's how we spend it:
>> $6,000 on administrative
>>> fees (mostly processing credit card gifts);
>> $122,000 on operating expenses
>>> (phone, rent, web hosting, office supplies, etc.);
>> $177,000 on payroll
>>> costs (salaries, health insurance, payroll taxes,
>> etc.); $93,000 on
>>> professional fees (writers, commissions,
>> consultants, etc.). These numbers
>>> may seem high to some of you, but we actually run
>> a very lean, efficient
>>> operation. It simply costs a lot of money to run a
>> nonprofit organization
>>> that offers as many programs to as many people as
>> we do.
>>>
>>> In the past, most of our revenue has come from
>> foundations, but foundation
>>> support is shrinking. We had hoped to make up the
>> difference through
>> earned
>>> income from web hosting and online education, but
>> those services are
>>> getting off to a slow start. We have also, as you
>> surely know, tried
>> asking
>>> for voluntary contributions. But so far this year
>> only about 1% of our
>>> 19,000 members have made gifts.
>>>
>>> The Rhizome Board of Directors met for its
>> quarterly meeting last Friday.
>>> The main topic was how to solve our financial
>> problems. I proposed putting
>>> the organization into hibernation mode. This would
>> entail shutting down
>> the
>>> office, laying off the staff and discontinuing
>> most of our programs. We
>>> would keep the web site up, ask the SuperUsers to
>> continue to publish
>>> texts, and keep Raw online. But everything else
>> would stop: no more Digest
>>> or Net Art News, no more commissions, no more
>> events. We'd stop adding new
>>> projects to the ArtBase, stop improving the web
>> site (we have a long list
>>> of bugs to fix and features to add) and stop
>> planning new programs.
>>>
>>> The Board felt that hibernation would be a big
>> mistake. Once we went into
>>> hibernation, they argued, it would be very hard to
>> re-emerge and rebuild
>>> momentum. Foundations would lose confidence in us
>> (not to mention the fact
>>> that we wouldn't have anyone to write the grants).
>> Most important, our
>>> ability to fulfill our mission would be
>> compromised.
>>>
>>> Then someone suggested charging a membership fee.
>> This idea has been
>>> proposed before, and I have always opposed it.
>> Rhizome is for everyone, I
>>> argued, not just for those who can afford it. I
>> argued that we'd lose
>>> thousands of members and that our community would
>> become less diverse.
>>>
>>> Then we looked at the numbers. The gap between our
>> expenses and what we
>> can
>>> raise from foundations, the government, earned
>> income and other sources is
>>> about $100,000. That's about $5 per member. If
>> every member gave $5,
>>> Rhizome would be financially stable. We could
>> continue to grow and serve
>>> the community.
>>>
>>> The board argued that we pay to subscribe to
>> magazines, to enter museums
>>> and to see performances. We pay to attend
>> festivals and conferences. Why
>>> shouldn't we pay for Rhizome? Because it's online?
>>>
>>> Consider this hypothetical scenario. Let's say we
>> introduced a
>>> sliding-scale membership fee starting at $11 per
>> year with "thank you
>>> gifts" (T-shirts, etc.) at higher levels. By
>> paying $11 a year (or more if
>>> you could afford it), you get access to
>> everything: Raw, Rare, Digest, Net
>>> Art News, the Calendar, Opportunity Listings,
>> ArtBase, Commissions, etc.
>>> Maybe we'd keep Raw free. Maybe we'd give new
>> memebers a free trial period
>>> so they could check out the goods before they have
>> to pay.
>>>
>>> Would you pay the fee?
>>>
>>> What do you think about the idea of a
>> sliding-scale membership fee for
>>> Rhizome.org? Good idea? Bad idea?
>>>
>>> Do you think it would be better to go into
>> hibernation?
>>>
>>> I am eagerly awaiting your responses.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> + new media rugby
>>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
>>> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
>>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>>> +
>>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms
>> set out in the
>>> Membership Agreement available online at
>> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>>>
>>
>> + new media rugby
>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
>> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
>> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>> +
>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
>> out in the
>> Membership Agreement available online at
> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
> =====
> http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
> http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
> + new media rugby
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
  • Michael Szpakowski | Sat Oct 26th 2002 1 a.m.
    Hi Lee
    I'm not prepared to play 'who gave what amount and
    when' -I actually don't think it's that helpful.
    I've given in the past ( listed as anon) and I've said
    what I'm prepared to give in future - it's not a
    matter thought of individual moralising but of
    establishing a structure that maintains Rhizome and
    access to Rhizome for those who don't have disposable
    income.
    On another note, I'm up for the idea of a CD -why not
    a CD ROM though?, with people donating a work not on
    the artbase - what a great opportunity to combine
    fundraising with showing the enormous diversity of
    work created by those involved in Rhizome.
    (and I'm equally happy to cede my place on such a
    project to someone better known and with more drawing
    power)
    Whatever is decided I'm quite happy to donate either
    an original piece of music or an artwork
    best
    Michael

    --- Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net> wrote:
    > Who has donated money in the last 24 hours.
    > I just gave 11$, a minor amount for the years of
    > enjoyment I've got out of
    > Rhizome. I will continue to donate in the future.
    >
    > Cheers
    > Lee
    >
    > on 10/25/02 7:41 PM, Michael Szpakowski at
    > szpako@yahoo.com wrote:
    >
    > > Rhizome has been really important to me. I have
    > > learned a lot from it plus I got a real sense of a
    > > body of people with similar concerns ( *community*
    > > always seems a tad twee) engaged in a sometimes
    > vastly
    > > irritating but always for me addictive dialogue
    > about
    > > art and it's relationship to the world.
    > > In my ideal world of course it would be funded
    > > generously but if it's not then I for one am
    > certainly
    > > willing to pay a fee to make sure I can get my
    > fix.
    > > I tend to agree with those who think access to the
    > > artbase should be general and free( because it's
    > our
    > > calling card to the wider world). Everything else,
    > in
    > > this imperfect world, I would be happy to cough up
    > > for.
    > > I do take David's point however. It would be a
    > tragedy
    > > if a world which is happy to fund war but not art
    > > forced those without spare cash whether in the USA
    > or
    > > Europe or elsewhere to quit the list and the site.
    > > So I suggest that those of us who can afford it
    > pay
    > > double whatever rate is decided so that free
    > > membership is available to anyone who declares (
    > > privately) an inability to pay the membership fee
    > and
    > > that this system is instituted entirely on trust.
    > A
    > > sort of 'twinning' arrangement.
    > > $15 (Pall's suggestion) doesn't strike me as an
    > > unreasonable basic annual fee. Tonight I spent a
    > fiver
    > > ( =$7.50?) on a bottle of wine. I'd certainly be
    > > comfortable with paying $30 p.a for something I
    > value
    > > a lot under the system I've described.
    > > regards
    > > Michael
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > --- David Goldschmidt <david@personify.tv> wrote:
    > >> i'll pay. although i think the sliding scale
    > should
    > >> be based on where one
    > >> lives. americans and west europeans should pay
    > more
    > >> while folks from less
    > >> affluent regions should pay less (or free).
    > >>
    > >> david goldschmidt
    > >>
    > >> ----- Original Message -----
    > >> From: "Mark Tribe" <mt@rhizome.org>
    > >> To: <list@rhizome.org>
    > >> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 5:34 PM
    > >> Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>> Hi Rhizomers:
    > >>>
    > >>> I am hoping to start a discussion here on Raw
    > >> about Rhizome's financial
    > >>> situation and a possible solution. This email is
    > >> rather long, but I'd
    > >>> appreciate it if you'd take the time to read it
    > >> through, give it some
    > >>> thought, and let me know what you think.
    > >>>
    > >>> First, some background information. It will cost
    > >> about $400,000 to operate
    > >>> Rhizome.org this year. Here's how we spend it:
    > >> $6,000 on administrative
    > >>> fees (mostly processing credit card gifts);
    > >> $122,000 on operating expenses
    > >>> (phone, rent, web hosting, office supplies,
    > etc.);
    > >> $177,000 on payroll
    > >>> costs (salaries, health insurance, payroll
    > taxes,
    > >> etc.); $93,000 on
    > >>> professional fees (writers, commissions,
    > >> consultants, etc.). These numbers
    > >>> may seem high to some of you, but we actually
    > run
    > >> a very lean, efficient
    > >>> operation. It simply costs a lot of money to run
    > a
    > >> nonprofit organization
    > >>> that offers as many programs to as many people
    > as
    > >> we do.
    > >>>
    > >>> In the past, most of our revenue has come from
    > >> foundations, but foundation
    > >>> support is shrinking. We had hoped to make up
    > the
    > >> difference through
    > >> earned
    > >>> income from web hosting and online education,
    > but
    > >> those services are
    > >>> getting off to a slow start. We have also, as
    > you
    > >> surely know, tried
    > >> asking
    > >>> for voluntary contributions. But so far this
    > year
    > >> only about 1% of our
    > >>> 19,000 members have made gifts.
    > >>>
    > >>> The Rhizome Board of Directors met for its
    > >> quarterly meeting last Friday.
    > >>> The main topic was how to solve our financial
    > >> problems. I proposed putting
    > >>> the organization into hibernation mode. This
    > would
    > >> entail shutting down
    > >> the
    > >>> office, laying off the staff and discontinuing
    > >> most of our programs. We
    > >>> would keep the web site up, ask the SuperUsers
    > to
    > >> continue to publish
    > >>> texts, and keep Raw online. But everything else
    > >> would stop: no more Digest
    > >>> or Net Art News, no more commissions, no more
    > >> events. We'd stop adding new
    > >>> projects to the ArtBase, stop improving the web
    > >> site (we have a long list
    > >>> of bugs to fix and features to add) and stop
    > >> planning new programs.
    > >>>
    > >>> The Board felt that hibernation would be a big
    > >> mistake. Once we went into
    > >>> hibernation, they argued, it would be very hard
    > to
    > >> re-emerge and rebuild
    > >>> momentum. Foundations would lose confidence in
    > us
    > >> (not to mention the fact
    > >>> that we wouldn't have anyone to write the
    > grants).
    > >> Most important, our
    > >>> ability to fulfill our mission would be
    > >> compromised.
    > >>>
    > >>> Then someone suggested charging a membership
    > fee.
    > >> This idea has been
    > >>> proposed before, and I have always opposed it.
    > >> Rhizome is for everyone, I
    > >>> argued, not just for those who can afford it. I
    > >> argued that we'd lose
    > >>> thousands of members and that our community
    > would
    > >> become less diverse.
    > >>>
    > >>> Then we looked at the numbers. The gap between
    > our
    > >> expenses and what we
    > >> can
    > >>> raise from foundations, the government, earned
    > >> income and other sources is
    > >>> about $100,000. That's about $5 per member. If
    > >> every member gave $5,
    > >>> Rhizome would be financially stable. We could
    > >> continue to grow and serve
    > >>> the community.
    > >>>
    > >>> The board argued that we pay to subscribe to
    > >> magazines, to enter museums
    > >>> and to see performances. We pay to attend
    > >> festivals and conferences. Why
    > >>> shouldn't we pay for Rhizome? Because it's
    > online?
    > >>>
    > >>> Consider this hypothetical scenario. Let's say
    > we
    > >> introduced a
    > >>> sliding-scale membership fee starting at $11 per
    > >> year with "thank you
    > >>> gifts" (T-shirts, etc.) at higher levels. By
    > >> paying $11 a year (or more if
    >
    === message truncated ===

    =====
    http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/

    __________________________________________________
    Do you Yahoo!?
    Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
    http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
  • Max Herman | Sat Oct 26th 2002 1 a.m.
    I don't have the time to curate (What?!) a cd, but I'll send shitty wav
    files via kazaa to whoever does. I think the covers should be jpg's, a
    mixture, with "rhizome" in white or black depending in a non-techy font
    across the front.

    Plus if there were diff songs for each cover, say like a mystery mix, it
    would be variety. I could do propaganda here in MN, maybe at the Walker's
    Martini Thursdays say, plus I know hella hoodlums and other lowlife music
    hitters.

    Main problem is if we can get enough good songs. I'd say that someone who
    knows or thinks they know enough good songs by fellows aqui should assemble
    the playlists.

    I've got ten I'd say that will hold water, more than enough.

    OK then.

    >From: Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com>
    >Reply-To: Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com>
    >To: Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>, David Goldschmidt <david@personify.tv>,
    > list@rhizome.org, Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>
    >Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Cash on the table
    >Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 06:16:19 -0700 (PDT)
    >
    >Hi Lee
    >I'm not prepared to play 'who gave what amount and
    >when' -I actually don't think it's that helpful.
    >I've given in the past ( listed as anon) and I've said
    >what I'm prepared to give in future - it's not a
    >matter thought of individual moralising but of
    >establishing a structure that maintains Rhizome and
    >access to Rhizome for those who don't have disposable
    >income.
    >On another note, I'm up for the idea of a CD -why not
    >a CD ROM though?, with people donating a work not on
    >the artbase - what a great opportunity to combine
    >fundraising with showing the enormous diversity of
    >work created by those involved in Rhizome.
    >(and I'm equally happy to cede my place on such a
    >project to someone better known and with more drawing
    >power)
    >Whatever is decided I'm quite happy to donate either
    >an original piece of music or an artwork
    >best
    >Michael
    >
    >--- Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net> wrote:
    > > Who has donated money in the last 24 hours.
    > > I just gave 11$, a minor amount for the years of
    > > enjoyment I've got out of
    > > Rhizome. I will continue to donate in the future.
    > >
    > > Cheers
    > > Lee
    > >
    > > on 10/25/02 7:41 PM, Michael Szpakowski at
    > > szpako@yahoo.com wrote:
    > >
    > > > Rhizome has been really important to me. I have
    > > > learned a lot from it plus I got a real sense of a
    > > > body of people with similar concerns ( *community*
    > > > always seems a tad twee) engaged in a sometimes
    > > vastly
    > > > irritating but always for me addictive dialogue
    > > about
    > > > art and it's relationship to the world.
    > > > In my ideal world of course it would be funded
    > > > generously but if it's not then I for one am
    > > certainly
    > > > willing to pay a fee to make sure I can get my
    > > fix.
    > > > I tend to agree with those who think access to the
    > > > artbase should be general and free( because it's
    > > our
    > > > calling card to the wider world). Everything else,
    > > in
    > > > this imperfect world, I would be happy to cough up
    > > > for.
    > > > I do take David's point however. It would be a
    > > tragedy
    > > > if a world which is happy to fund war but not art
    > > > forced those without spare cash whether in the USA
    > > or
    > > > Europe or elsewhere to quit the list and the site.
    > > > So I suggest that those of us who can afford it
    > > pay
    > > > double whatever rate is decided so that free
    > > > membership is available to anyone who declares (
    > > > privately) an inability to pay the membership fee
    > > and
    > > > that this system is instituted entirely on trust.
    > > A
    > > > sort of 'twinning' arrangement.
    > > > $15 (Pall's suggestion) doesn't strike me as an
    > > > unreasonable basic annual fee. Tonight I spent a
    > > fiver
    > > > ( =$7.50?) on a bottle of wine. I'd certainly be
    > > > comfortable with paying $30 p.a for something I
    > > value
    > > > a lot under the system I've described.
    > > > regards
    > > > Michael
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > --- David Goldschmidt <david@personify.tv> wrote:
    > > >> i'll pay. although i think the sliding scale
    > > should
    > > >> be based on where one
    > > >> lives. americans and west europeans should pay
    > > more
    > > >> while folks from less
    > > >> affluent regions should pay less (or free).
    > > >>
    > > >> david goldschmidt
    > > >>
    > > >> ----- Original Message -----
    > > >> From: "Mark Tribe" <mt@rhizome.org>
    > > >> To: <list@rhizome.org>
    > > >> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 5:34 PM
    > > >> Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
    > > >>
    > > >>
    > > >>> Hi Rhizomers:
    > > >>>
    > > >>> I am hoping to start a discussion here on Raw
    > > >> about Rhizome's financial
    > > >>> situation and a possible solution. This email is
    > > >> rather long, but I'd
    > > >>> appreciate it if you'd take the time to read it
    > > >> through, give it some
    > > >>> thought, and let me know what you think.
    > > >>>
    > > >>> First, some background information. It will cost
    > > >> about $400,000 to operate
    > > >>> Rhizome.org this year. Here's how we spend it:
    > > >> $6,000 on administrative
    > > >>> fees (mostly processing credit card gifts);
    > > >> $122,000 on operating expenses
    > > >>> (phone, rent, web hosting, office supplies,
    > > etc.);
    > > >> $177,000 on payroll
    > > >>> costs (salaries, health insurance, payroll
    > > taxes,
    > > >> etc.); $93,000 on
    > > >>> professional fees (writers, commissions,
    > > >> consultants, etc.). These numbers
    > > >>> may seem high to some of you, but we actually
    > > run
    > > >> a very lean, efficient
    > > >>> operation. It simply costs a lot of money to run
    > > a
    > > >> nonprofit organization
    > > >>> that offers as many programs to as many people
    > > as
    > > >> we do.
    > > >>>
    > > >>> In the past, most of our revenue has come from
    > > >> foundations, but foundation
    > > >>> support is shrinking. We had hoped to make up
    > > the
    > > >> difference through
    > > >> earned
    > > >>> income from web hosting and online education,
    > > but
    > > >> those services are
    > > >>> getting off to a slow start. We have also, as
    > > you
    > > >> surely know, tried
    > > >> asking
    > > >>> for voluntary contributions. But so far this
    > > year
    > > >> only about 1% of our
    > > >>> 19,000 members have made gifts.
    > > >>>
    > > >>> The Rhizome Board of Directors met for its
    > > >> quarterly meeting last Friday.
    > > >>> The main topic was how to solve our financial
    > > >> problems. I proposed putting
    > > >>> the organization into hibernation mode. This
    > > would
    > > >> entail shutting down
    > > >> the
    > > >>> office, laying off the staff and discontinuing
    > > >> most of our programs. We
    > > >>> would keep the web site up, ask the SuperUsers
    > > to
    > > >> continue to publish
    > > >>> texts, and keep Raw online. But everything else
    > > >> would stop: no more Digest
    > > >>> or Net Art News, no more commissions, no more
    > > >> events. We'd stop adding new
    > > >>> projects to the ArtBase, stop improving the web
    > > >> site (we have a long list
    > > >>> of bugs to fix and features to add) and stop
    > > >> planning new programs.
    > > >>>
    > > >>> The Board felt that hibernation would be a big
    > > >> mistake. Once we went into
    > > >>> hibernation, they argued, it would be very hard
    > > to
    > > >> re-emerge and rebuild
    > > >>> momentum. Foundations would lose confidence in
    > > us
    > > >> (not to mention the fact
    > > >>> that we wouldn't have anyone to write the
    > > grants).
    > > >> Most important, our
    > > >>> ability to fulfill our mission would be
    > > >> compromised.
    > > >>>
    > > >>> Then someone suggested charging a membership
    > > fee.
    > > >> This idea has been
    > > >>> proposed before, and I have always opposed it.
    > > >> Rhizome is for everyone, I
    > > >>> argued, not just for those who can afford it. I
    > > >> argued that we'd lose
    > > >>> thousands of members and that our community
    > > would
    > > >> become less diverse.
    > > >>>
    > > >>> Then we looked at the numbers. The gap between
    > > our
    > > >> expenses and what we
    > > >> can
    > > >>> raise from foundations, the government, earned
    > > >> income and other sources is
    > > >>> about $100,000. That's about $5 per member. If
    > > >> every member gave $5,
    > > >>> Rhizome would be financially stable. We could
    > > >> continue to grow and serve
    > > >>> the community.
    > > >>>
    > > >>> The board argued that we pay to subscribe to
    > > >> magazines, to enter museums
    > > >>> and to see performances. We pay to attend
    > > >> festivals and conferences. Why
    > > >>> shouldn't we pay for Rhizome? Because it's
    > > online?
    > > >>>
    > > >>> Consider this hypothetical scenario. Let's say
    > > we
    > > >> introduced a
    > > >>> sliding-scale membership fee starting at $11 per
    > > >> year with "thank you
    > > >>> gifts" (T-shirts, etc.) at higher levels. By
    > > >> paying $11 a year (or more if
    > >
    >=== message truncated ===
    >
    >
    >=====
    >http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
    >
    >__________________________________________________
    >Do you Yahoo!?
    >Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
    >http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
    >+ new media rugby
    >-> post: list@rhizome.org
    >-> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    >+
    >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php

    _________________________________________________________________
    Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free!
  • Pall Thayer | Sat Oct 26th 2002 1 a.m.
    Hi list, interesting discussion we're having. Strange that someone should
    propose doing an audio CD rather than something more visual but then again
    when you think about it, there probably is a much wider market for audio
    CD's than CDroms or DVD's. That said.....

    I'm not a musician and I go to great efforts to emphasize that ('cause
    people have a tendency to think I am), but none the less I have some
    projects containing what some might consider music or musical elements.
    They're interactive because I want to make sure that I'm not the one
    creating the music ('cause I'm not a musician). If anyone wants to record
    some chunks from http://www.this.is/pallit/isjs or
    http://www.this.is/pallit/harmony and do something with them, like mix them
    with something else or compose some accompaniment to them or just present
    them on their own, feel free (just make sure my name is in there somewhere,
    just not as a musician ('cause I'm not)).

    Now, on this CD idea, the more I think about the more I like it. Considering
    what kind of list this is, we're bound to be able to put this thing together
    in a highly professional way while keeping the production cost way way down.
    We donate our artistic endevours, someone has access to a good sound studio
    so we can do all the mixing and mastering and what not for free. We have
    lot's of good designers on here so the cover is no problem. Someone on the
    list is bound to have some sort of ties in the area of CD production and can
    get us a good deal on it. Seeing that it's coming from Rhizome, we should be
    able to talk every art school library into believing (and understanding)
    that this will be a 'must have' for all such institutions (if they want to
    be 'with it'.). So if all that works out, we've got a high quality CD that
    we can sell for much less than most CD's and we've already sold a bunch
    before it's even released. And then we'll make it on the charts, go on tour.
    Of course then Bono will probably want to sing a duet with Max and IID42 can
    play a 20 minute long sitar solo.

    Pall Thayer

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Max Herman" <maxnmherman@hotmail.com>
    To: <list@rhizome.org>
    Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 12:50 PM
    Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Cash on the table

    >
    >
    > I don't have the time to curate (What?!) a cd, but I'll send shitty wav
    > files via kazaa to whoever does. I think the covers should be jpg's, a
    > mixture, with "rhizome" in white or black depending in a non-techy font
    > across the front.
    >
    > Plus if there were diff songs for each cover, say like a mystery mix, it
    > would be variety. I could do propaganda here in MN, maybe at the Walker's
    > Martini Thursdays say, plus I know hella hoodlums and other lowlife music
    > hitters.
    >
    > Main problem is if we can get enough good songs. I'd say that someone who
    > knows or thinks they know enough good songs by fellows aqui should
    assemble
    > the playlists.
    >
    > I've got ten I'd say that will hold water, more than enough.
    >
    > OK then.
    >
    >
    >
    > >From: Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com>
    > >Reply-To: Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com>
    > >To: Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>, David Goldschmidt
    <david@personify.tv>,
    > > list@rhizome.org, Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>
    > >Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Cash on the table
    > >Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 06:16:19 -0700 (PDT)
    > >
    > >Hi Lee
    > >I'm not prepared to play 'who gave what amount and
    > >when' -I actually don't think it's that helpful.
    > >I've given in the past ( listed as anon) and I've said
    > >what I'm prepared to give in future - it's not a
    > >matter thought of individual moralising but of
    > >establishing a structure that maintains Rhizome and
    > >access to Rhizome for those who don't have disposable
    > >income.
    > >On another note, I'm up for the idea of a CD -why not
    > >a CD ROM though?, with people donating a work not on
    > >the artbase - what a great opportunity to combine
    > >fundraising with showing the enormous diversity of
    > >work created by those involved in Rhizome.
    > >(and I'm equally happy to cede my place on such a
    > >project to someone better known and with more drawing
    > >power)
    > >Whatever is decided I'm quite happy to donate either
    > >an original piece of music or an artwork
    > >best
    > >Michael
    > >
    > >--- Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net> wrote:
    > > > Who has donated money in the last 24 hours.
    > > > I just gave 11$, a minor amount for the years of
    > > > enjoyment I've got out of
    > > > Rhizome. I will continue to donate in the future.
    > > >
    > > > Cheers
    > > > Lee
    > > >
    > > > on 10/25/02 7:41 PM, Michael Szpakowski at
    > > > szpako@yahoo.com wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > Rhizome has been really important to me. I have
    > > > > learned a lot from it plus I got a real sense of a
    > > > > body of people with similar concerns ( *community*
    > > > > always seems a tad twee) engaged in a sometimes
    > > > vastly
    > > > > irritating but always for me addictive dialogue
    > > > about
    > > > > art and it's relationship to the world.
    > > > > In my ideal world of course it would be funded
    > > > > generously but if it's not then I for one am
    > > > certainly
    > > > > willing to pay a fee to make sure I can get my
    > > > fix.
    > > > > I tend to agree with those who think access to the
    > > > > artbase should be general and free( because it's
    > > > our
    > > > > calling card to the wider world). Everything else,
    > > > in
    > > > > this imperfect world, I would be happy to cough up
    > > > > for.
    > > > > I do take David's point however. It would be a
    > > > tragedy
    > > > > if a world which is happy to fund war but not art
    > > > > forced those without spare cash whether in the USA
    > > > or
    > > > > Europe or elsewhere to quit the list and the site.
    > > > > So I suggest that those of us who can afford it
    > > > pay
    > > > > double whatever rate is decided so that free
    > > > > membership is available to anyone who declares (
    > > > > privately) an inability to pay the membership fee
    > > > and
    > > > > that this system is instituted entirely on trust.
    > > > A
    > > > > sort of 'twinning' arrangement.
    > > > > $15 (Pall's suggestion) doesn't strike me as an
    > > > > unreasonable basic annual fee. Tonight I spent a
    > > > fiver
    > > > > ( =$7.50?) on a bottle of wine. I'd certainly be
    > > > > comfortable with paying $30 p.a for something I
    > > > value
    > > > > a lot under the system I've described.
    > > > > regards
    > > > > Michael
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > --- David Goldschmidt <david@personify.tv> wrote:
    > > > >> i'll pay. although i think the sliding scale
    > > > should
    > > > >> be based on where one
    > > > >> lives. americans and west europeans should pay
    > > > more
    > > > >> while folks from less
    > > > >> affluent regions should pay less (or free).
    > > > >>
    > > > >> david goldschmidt
    > > > >>
    > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
    > > > >> From: "Mark Tribe" <mt@rhizome.org>
    > > > >> To: <list@rhizome.org>
    > > > >> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 5:34 PM
    > > > >> Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
    > > > >>
    > > > >>
    > > > >>> Hi Rhizomers:
    > > > >>>
    > > > >>> I am hoping to start a discussion here on Raw
    > > > >> about Rhizome's financial
    > > > >>> situation and a possible solution. This email is
    > > > >> rather long, but I'd
    > > > >>> appreciate it if you'd take the time to read it
    > > > >> through, give it some
    > > > >>> thought, and let me know what you think.
    > > > >>>
    > > > >>> First, some background information. It will cost
    > > > >> about $400,000 to operate
    > > > >>> Rhizome.org this year. Here's how we spend it:
    > > > >> $6,000 on administrative
    > > > >>> fees (mostly processing credit card gifts);
    > > > >> $122,000 on operating expenses
    > > > >>> (phone, rent, web hosting, office supplies,
    > > > etc.);
    > > > >> $177,000 on payroll
    > > > >>> costs (salaries, health insurance, payroll
    > > > taxes,
    > > > >> etc.); $93,000 on
    > > > >>> professional fees (writers, commissions,
    > > > >> consultants, etc.). These numbers
    > > > >>> may seem high to some of you, but we actually
    > > > run
    > > > >> a very lean, efficient
    > > > >>> operation. It simply costs a lot of money to run
    > > > a
    > > > >> nonprofit organization
    > > > >>> that offers as many programs to as many people
    > > > as
    > > > >> we do.
    > > > >>>
    > > > >>> In the past, most of our revenue has come from
    > > > >> foundations, but foundation
    > > > >>> support is shrinking. We had hoped to make up
    > > > the
    > > > >> difference through
    > > > >> earned
    > > > >>> income from web hosting and online education,
    > > > but
    > > > >> those services are
    > > > >>> getting off to a slow start. We have also, as
    > > > you
    > > > >> surely know, tried
    > > > >> asking
    > > > >>> for voluntary contributions. But so far this
    > > > year
    > > > >> only about 1% of our
    > > > >>> 19,000 members have made gifts.
    > > > >>>
    > > > >>> The Rhizome Board of Directors met for its
    > > > >> quarterly meeting last Friday.
    > > > >>> The main topic was how to solve our financial
    > > > >> problems. I proposed putting
    > > > >>> the organization into hibernation mode. This
    > > > would
    > > > >> entail shutting down
    > > > >> the
    > > > >>> office, laying off the staff and discontinuing
    > > > >> most of our programs. We
    > > > >>> would keep the web site up, ask the SuperUsers
    > > > to
    > > > >> continue to publish
    > > > >>> texts, and keep Raw online. But everything else
    > > > >> would stop: no more Digest
    > > > >>> or Net Art News, no more commissions, no more
    > > > >> events. We'd stop adding new
    > > > >>> projects to the ArtBase, stop improving the web
    > > > >> site (we have a long list
    > > > >>> of bugs to fix and features to add) and stop
    > > > >> planning new programs.
    > > > >>>
    > > > >>> The Board felt that hibernation would be a big
    > > > >> mistake. Once we went into
    > > > >>> hibernation, they argued, it would be very hard
    > > > to
    > > > >> re-emerge and rebuild
    > > > >>> momentum. Foundations would lose confidence in
    > > > us
    > > > >> (not to mention the fact
    > > > >>> that we wouldn't have anyone to write the
    > > > grants).
    > > > >> Most important, our
    > > > >>> ability to fulfill our mission would be
    > > > >> compromised.
    > > > >>>
    > > > >>> Then someone suggested charging a membership
    > > > fee.
    > > > >> This idea has been
    > > > >>> proposed before, and I have always opposed it.
    > > > >> Rhizome is for everyone, I
    > > > >>> argued, not just for those who can afford it. I
    > > > >> argued that we'd lose
    > > > >>> thousands of members and that our community
    > > > would
    > > > >> become less diverse.
    > > > >>>
    > > > >>> Then we looked at the numbers. The gap between
    > > > our
    > > > >> expenses and what we
    > > > >> can
    > > > >>> raise from foundations, the government, earned
    > > > >> income and other sources is
    > > > >>> about $100,000. That's about $5 per member. If
    > > > >> every member gave $5,
    > > > >>> Rhizome would be financially stable. We could
    > > > >> continue to grow and serve
    > > > >>> the community.
    > > > >>>
    > > > >>> The board argued that we pay to subscribe to
    > > > >> magazines, to enter museums
    > > > >>> and to see performances. We pay to attend
    > > > >> festivals and conferences. Why
    > > > >>> shouldn't we pay for Rhizome? Because it's
    > > > online?
    > > > >>>
    > > > >>> Consider this hypothetical scenario. Let's say
    > > > we
    > > > >> introduced a
    > > > >>> sliding-scale membership fee starting at $11 per
    > > > >> year with "thank you
    > > > >>> gifts" (T-shirts, etc.) at higher levels. By
    > > > >> paying $11 a year (or more if
    > > >
    > >=== message truncated ===
    > >
    > >
    > >=====
    > >http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
    > >
    > >__________________________________________________
    > >Do you Yahoo!?
    > >Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
    > >http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
    > >+ new media rugby
    > >-> post: list@rhizome.org
    > >-> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > >-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > >+
    > >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > >Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
    >
    > _________________________________________________________________
    > Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try MSN.
    > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp
    >
    > + new media rugby
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
  • David Goldschmidt | Sat Oct 26th 2002 1 a.m.
    i pitched in $15 within the last 24 hours (and will continue to donate in
    the future).

    that mark tribe ... he's a crafty fundraiser *wink*

    david goldschmidt

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Lee Wells" <leewells@bb19.net>
    To: "Michael Szpakowski" <szpako@yahoo.com>; "David Goldschmidt"
    <david@personify.tv>; <list@rhizome.org>; "Mark Tribe" <mt@rhizome.org>
    Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 10:51 PM
    Subject: Cash on the table

    > Who has donated money in the last 24 hours.
    > I just gave 11$, a minor amount for the years of enjoyment I've got out of
    > Rhizome. I will continue to donate in the future.
    >
    > Cheers
    > Lee
    >
    > on 10/25/02 7:41 PM, Michael Szpakowski at szpako@yahoo.com wrote:
    >
    > > Rhizome has been really important to me. I have
    > > learned a lot from it plus I got a real sense of a
    > > body of people with similar concerns ( *community*
    > > always seems a tad twee) engaged in a sometimes vastly
    > > irritating but always for me addictive dialogue about
    > > art and it's relationship to the world.
    > > In my ideal world of course it would be funded
    > > generously but if it's not then I for one am certainly
    > > willing to pay a fee to make sure I can get my fix.
    > > I tend to agree with those who think access to the
    > > artbase should be general and free( because it's our
    > > calling card to the wider world). Everything else, in
    > > this imperfect world, I would be happy to cough up
    > > for.
    > > I do take David's point however. It would be a tragedy
    > > if a world which is happy to fund war but not art
    > > forced those without spare cash whether in the USA or
    > > Europe or elsewhere to quit the list and the site.
    > > So I suggest that those of us who can afford it pay
    > > double whatever rate is decided so that free
    > > membership is available to anyone who declares (
    > > privately) an inability to pay the membership fee and
    > > that this system is instituted entirely on trust. A
    > > sort of 'twinning' arrangement.
    > > $15 (Pall's suggestion) doesn't strike me as an
    > > unreasonable basic annual fee. Tonight I spent a fiver
    > > ( =$7.50?) on a bottle of wine. I'd certainly be
    > > comfortable with paying $30 p.a for something I value
    > > a lot under the system I've described.
    > > regards
    > > Michael
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > --- David Goldschmidt <david@personify.tv> wrote:
    > >> i'll pay. although i think the sliding scale should
    > >> be based on where one
    > >> lives. americans and west europeans should pay more
    > >> while folks from less
    > >> affluent regions should pay less (or free).
    > >>
    > >> david goldschmidt
    > >>
    > >> ----- Original Message -----
    > >> From: "Mark Tribe" <mt@rhizome.org>
    > >> To: <list@rhizome.org>
    > >> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 5:34 PM
    > >> Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>> Hi Rhizomers:
    > >>>
    > >>> I am hoping to start a discussion here on Raw
    > >> about Rhizome's financial
    > >>> situation and a possible solution. This email is
    > >> rather long, but I'd
    > >>> appreciate it if you'd take the time to read it
    > >> through, give it some
    > >>> thought, and let me know what you think.
    > >>>
    > >>> First, some background information. It will cost
    > >> about $400,000 to operate
    > >>> Rhizome.org this year. Here's how we spend it:
    > >> $6,000 on administrative
    > >>> fees (mostly processing credit card gifts);
    > >> $122,000 on operating expenses
    > >>> (phone, rent, web hosting, office supplies, etc.);
    > >> $177,000 on payroll
    > >>> costs (salaries, health insurance, payroll taxes,
    > >> etc.); $93,000 on
    > >>> professional fees (writers, commissions,
    > >> consultants, etc.). These numbers
    > >>> may seem high to some of you, but we actually run
    > >> a very lean, efficient
    > >>> operation. It simply costs a lot of money to run a
    > >> nonprofit organization
    > >>> that offers as many programs to as many people as
    > >> we do.
    > >>>
    > >>> In the past, most of our revenue has come from
    > >> foundations, but foundation
    > >>> support is shrinking. We had hoped to make up the
    > >> difference through
    > >> earned
    > >>> income from web hosting and online education, but
    > >> those services are
    > >>> getting off to a slow start. We have also, as you
    > >> surely know, tried
    > >> asking
    > >>> for voluntary contributions. But so far this year
    > >> only about 1% of our
    > >>> 19,000 members have made gifts.
    > >>>
    > >>> The Rhizome Board of Directors met for its
    > >> quarterly meeting last Friday.
    > >>> The main topic was how to solve our financial
    > >> problems. I proposed putting
    > >>> the organization into hibernation mode. This would
    > >> entail shutting down
    > >> the
    > >>> office, laying off the staff and discontinuing
    > >> most of our programs. We
    > >>> would keep the web site up, ask the SuperUsers to
    > >> continue to publish
    > >>> texts, and keep Raw online. But everything else
    > >> would stop: no more Digest
    > >>> or Net Art News, no more commissions, no more
    > >> events. We'd stop adding new
    > >>> projects to the ArtBase, stop improving the web
    > >> site (we have a long list
    > >>> of bugs to fix and features to add) and stop
    > >> planning new programs.
    > >>>
    > >>> The Board felt that hibernation would be a big
    > >> mistake. Once we went into
    > >>> hibernation, they argued, it would be very hard to
    > >> re-emerge and rebuild
    > >>> momentum. Foundations would lose confidence in us
    > >> (not to mention the fact
    > >>> that we wouldn't have anyone to write the grants).
    > >> Most important, our
    > >>> ability to fulfill our mission would be
    > >> compromised.
    > >>>
    > >>> Then someone suggested charging a membership fee.
    > >> This idea has been
    > >>> proposed before, and I have always opposed it.
    > >> Rhizome is for everyone, I
    > >>> argued, not just for those who can afford it. I
    > >> argued that we'd lose
    > >>> thousands of members and that our community would
    > >> become less diverse.
    > >>>
    > >>> Then we looked at the numbers. The gap between our
    > >> expenses and what we
    > >> can
    > >>> raise from foundations, the government, earned
    > >> income and other sources is
    > >>> about $100,000. That's about $5 per member. If
    > >> every member gave $5,
    > >>> Rhizome would be financially stable. We could
    > >> continue to grow and serve
    > >>> the community.
    > >>>
    > >>> The board argued that we pay to subscribe to
    > >> magazines, to enter museums
    > >>> and to see performances. We pay to attend
    > >> festivals and conferences. Why
    > >>> shouldn't we pay for Rhizome? Because it's online?
    > >>>
    > >>> Consider this hypothetical scenario. Let's say we
    > >> introduced a
    > >>> sliding-scale membership fee starting at $11 per
    > >> year with "thank you
    > >>> gifts" (T-shirts, etc.) at higher levels. By
    > >> paying $11 a year (or more if
    > >>> you could afford it), you get access to
    > >> everything: Raw, Rare, Digest, Net
    > >>> Art News, the Calendar, Opportunity Listings,
    > >> ArtBase, Commissions, etc.
    > >>> Maybe we'd keep Raw free. Maybe we'd give new
    > >> memebers a free trial period
    > >>> so they could check out the goods before they have
    > >> to pay.
    > >>>
    > >>> Would you pay the fee?
    > >>>
    > >>> What do you think about the idea of a
    > >> sliding-scale membership fee for
    > >>> Rhizome.org? Good idea? Bad idea?
    > >>>
    > >>> Do you think it would be better to go into
    > >> hibernation?
    > >>>
    > >>> I am eagerly awaiting your responses.
    > >>>
    > >>> Sincerely,
    > >>>
    > >>> Mark
    > >>>
    > >>> + new media rugby
    > >>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > >>> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > >>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    > >> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > >>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > >>> +
    > >>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms
    > >> set out in the
    > >>> Membership Agreement available online at
    > >> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    > >>>
    > >>
    > >> + new media rugby
    > >> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > >> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > >> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    > >> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > >> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > >> +
    > >> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
    > >> out in the
    > >> Membership Agreement available online at
    > > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    > >
    > >
    > > =====
    > > http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
    > >
    > > __________________________________________________
    > > Do you Yahoo!?
    > > Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
    > > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
    > > + new media rugby
    > > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > > +
    > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
    >
  • Lee Wells | Sat Oct 26th 2002 1 a.m.
    Michael
    I didn't mean it to come across like that but I guess I did.
    I guess what I was trying to say was that many people were posting they
    would pay this or that amount. I wasn't seeing anyone say I am.

    CD, CD-Rom, Enhanced CD, DVD.
    Lets start compiling work.
    Talk to you soon
    Cheers
    Lee
    on 10/26/02 9:16 AM, Michael Szpakowski at szpako@yahoo.com wrote:

    > Hi Lee
    > I'm not prepared to play 'who gave what amount and
    > when' -I actually don't think it's that helpful.
    > I've given in the past ( listed as anon) and I've said
    > what I'm prepared to give in future - it's not a
    > matter thought of individual moralising but of
    > establishing a structure that maintains Rhizome and
    > access to Rhizome for those who don't have disposable
    > income.
    > On another note, I'm up for the idea of a CD -why not
    > a CD ROM though?, with people donating a work not on
    > the artbase - what a great opportunity to combine
    > fundraising with showing the enormous diversity of
    > work created by those involved in Rhizome.
    > (and I'm equally happy to cede my place on such a
    > project to someone better known and with more drawing
    > power)
    > Whatever is decided I'm quite happy to donate either
    > an original piece of music or an artwork
    > best
    > Michael
    >
    > --- Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net> wrote:
    >> Who has donated money in the last 24 hours.
    >> I just gave 11$, a minor amount for the years of
    >> enjoyment I've got out of
    >> Rhizome. I will continue to donate in the future.
    >>
    >> Cheers
    >> Lee
    >>
    >> on 10/25/02 7:41 PM, Michael Szpakowski at
    >> szpako@yahoo.com wrote:
    >>
    >>> Rhizome has been really important to me. I have
    >>> learned a lot from it plus I got a real sense of a
    >>> body of people with similar concerns ( *community*
    >>> always seems a tad twee) engaged in a sometimes
    >> vastly
    >>> irritating but always for me addictive dialogue
    >> about
    >>> art and it's relationship to the world.
    >>> In my ideal world of course it would be funded
    >>> generously but if it's not then I for one am
    >> certainly
    >>> willing to pay a fee to make sure I can get my
    >> fix.
    >>> I tend to agree with those who think access to the
    >>> artbase should be general and free( because it's
    >> our
    >>> calling card to the wider world). Everything else,
    >> in
    >>> this imperfect world, I would be happy to cough up
    >>> for.
    >>> I do take David's point however. It would be a
    >> tragedy
    >>> if a world which is happy to fund war but not art
    >>> forced those without spare cash whether in the USA
    >> or
    >>> Europe or elsewhere to quit the list and the site.
    >>> So I suggest that those of us who can afford it
    >> pay
    >>> double whatever rate is decided so that free
    >>> membership is available to anyone who declares (
    >>> privately) an inability to pay the membership fee
    >> and
    >>> that this system is instituted entirely on trust.
    >> A
    >>> sort of 'twinning' arrangement.
    >>> $15 (Pall's suggestion) doesn't strike me as an
    >>> unreasonable basic annual fee. Tonight I spent a
    >> fiver
    >>> ( =$7.50?) on a bottle of wine. I'd certainly be
    >>> comfortable with paying $30 p.a for something I
    >> value
    >>> a lot under the system I've described.
    >>> regards
    >>> Michael
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> --- David Goldschmidt <david@personify.tv> wrote:
    >>>> i'll pay. although i think the sliding scale
    >> should
    >>>> be based on where one
    >>>> lives. americans and west europeans should pay
    >> more
    >>>> while folks from less
    >>>> affluent regions should pay less (or free).
    >>>>
    >>>> david goldschmidt
    >>>>
    >>>> ----- Original Message -----
    >>>> From: "Mark Tribe" <mt@rhizome.org>
    >>>> To: <list@rhizome.org>
    >>>> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 5:34 PM
    >>>> Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>> Hi Rhizomers:
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I am hoping to start a discussion here on Raw
    >>>> about Rhizome's financial
    >>>>> situation and a possible solution. This email is
    >>>> rather long, but I'd
    >>>>> appreciate it if you'd take the time to read it
    >>>> through, give it some
    >>>>> thought, and let me know what you think.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> First, some background information. It will cost
    >>>> about $400,000 to operate
    >>>>> Rhizome.org this year. Here's how we spend it:
    >>>> $6,000 on administrative
    >>>>> fees (mostly processing credit card gifts);
    >>>> $122,000 on operating expenses
    >>>>> (phone, rent, web hosting, office supplies,
    >> etc.);
    >>>> $177,000 on payroll
    >>>>> costs (salaries, health insurance, payroll
    >> taxes,
    >>>> etc.); $93,000 on
    >>>>> professional fees (writers, commissions,
    >>>> consultants, etc.). These numbers
    >>>>> may seem high to some of you, but we actually
    >> run
    >>>> a very lean, efficient
    >>>>> operation. It simply costs a lot of money to run
    >> a
    >>>> nonprofit organization
    >>>>> that offers as many programs to as many people
    >> as
    >>>> we do.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> In the past, most of our revenue has come from
    >>>> foundations, but foundation
    >>>>> support is shrinking. We had hoped to make up
    >> the
    >>>> difference through
    >>>> earned
    >>>>> income from web hosting and online education,
    >> but
    >>>> those services are
    >>>>> getting off to a slow start. We have also, as
    >> you
    >>>> surely know, tried
    >>>> asking
    >>>>> for voluntary contributions. But so far this
    >> year
    >>>> only about 1% of our
    >>>>> 19,000 members have made gifts.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> The Rhizome Board of Directors met for its
    >>>> quarterly meeting last Friday.
    >>>>> The main topic was how to solve our financial
    >>>> problems. I proposed putting
    >>>>> the organization into hibernation mode. This
    >> would
    >>>> entail shutting down
    >>>> the
    >>>>> office, laying off the staff and discontinuing
    >>>> most of our programs. We
    >>>>> would keep the web site up, ask the SuperUsers
    >> to
    >>>> continue to publish
    >>>>> texts, and keep Raw online. But everything else
    >>>> would stop: no more Digest
    >>>>> or Net Art News, no more commissions, no more
    >>>> events. We'd stop adding new
    >>>>> projects to the ArtBase, stop improving the web
    >>>> site (we have a long list
    >>>>> of bugs to fix and features to add) and stop
    >>>> planning new programs.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> The Board felt that hibernation would be a big
    >>>> mistake. Once we went into
    >>>>> hibernation, they argued, it would be very hard
    >> to
    >>>> re-emerge and rebuild
    >>>>> momentum. Foundations would lose confidence in
    >> us
    >>>> (not to mention the fact
    >>>>> that we wouldn't have anyone to write the
    >> grants).
    >>>> Most important, our
    >>>>> ability to fulfill our mission would be
    >>>> compromised.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Then someone suggested charging a membership
    >> fee.
    >>>> This idea has been
    >>>>> proposed before, and I have always opposed it.
    >>>> Rhizome is for everyone, I
    >>>>> argued, not just for those who can afford it. I
    >>>> argued that we'd lose
    >>>>> thousands of members and that our community
    >> would
    >>>> become less diverse.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Then we looked at the numbers. The gap between
    >> our
    >>>> expenses and what we
    >>>> can
    >>>>> raise from foundations, the government, earned
    >>>> income and other sources is
    >>>>> about $100,000. That's about $5 per member. If
    >>>> every member gave $5,
    >>>>> Rhizome would be financially stable. We could
    >>>> continue to grow and serve
    >>>>> the community.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> The board argued that we pay to subscribe to
    >>>> magazines, to enter museums
    >>>>> and to see performances. We pay to attend
    >>>> festivals and conferences. Why
    >>>>> shouldn't we pay for Rhizome? Because it's
    >> online?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Consider this hypothetical scenario. Let's say
    >> we
    >>>> introduced a
    >>>>> sliding-scale membership fee starting at $11 per
    >>>> year with "thank you
    >>>>> gifts" (T-shirts, etc.) at higher levels. By
    >>>> paying $11 a year (or more if
    >>
    > === message truncated ===
    >
    >
    > =====
    > http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
    >
    > __________________________________________________
    > Do you Yahoo!?
    > Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
    > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
  • Lee Wells | Sat Oct 26th 2002 1 a.m.
    Let settle on making an Enhanced CD. with corresponding website that can not
    only direct the consumer to Rhizome but also to additional online works by
    participating artists.

    Cheers
    Lee

    on 10/27/02 12:54 AM, Pall Thayer at pall@fa.is wrote:

    > Hi list, interesting discussion we're having. Strange that someone should
    > propose doing an audio CD rather than something more visual but then again
    > when you think about it, there probably is a much wider market for audio
    > CD's than CDroms or DVD's. That said.....
    >
    > I'm not a musician and I go to great efforts to emphasize that ('cause
    > people have a tendency to think I am), but none the less I have some
    > projects containing what some might consider music or musical elements.
    > They're interactive because I want to make sure that I'm not the one
    > creating the music ('cause I'm not a musician). If anyone wants to record
    > some chunks from http://www.this.is/pallit/isjs or
    > http://www.this.is/pallit/harmony and do something with them, like mix them
    > with something else or compose some accompaniment to them or just present
    > them on their own, feel free (just make sure my name is in there somewhere,
    > just not as a musician ('cause I'm not)).
    >
    > Now, on this CD idea, the more I think about the more I like it. Considering
    > what kind of list this is, we're bound to be able to put this thing together
    > in a highly professional way while keeping the production cost way way down.
    > We donate our artistic endevours, someone has access to a good sound studio
    > so we can do all the mixing and mastering and what not for free. We have
    > lot's of good designers on here so the cover is no problem. Someone on the
    > list is bound to have some sort of ties in the area of CD production and can
    > get us a good deal on it. Seeing that it's coming from Rhizome, we should be
    > able to talk every art school library into believing (and understanding)
    > that this will be a 'must have' for all such institutions (if they want to
    > be 'with it'.). So if all that works out, we've got a high quality CD that
    > we can sell for much less than most CD's and we've already sold a bunch
    > before it's even released. And then we'll make it on the charts, go on tour.
    > Of course then Bono will probably want to sing a duet with Max and IID42 can
    > play a 20 minute long sitar solo.
    >
    > Pall Thayer
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "Max Herman" <maxnmherman@hotmail.com>
    > To: <list@rhizome.org>
    > Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 12:50 PM
    > Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Cash on the table
    >
    >
    >>
    >>
    >> I don't have the time to curate (What?!) a cd, but I'll send shitty wav
    >> files via kazaa to whoever does. I think the covers should be jpg's, a
    >> mixture, with "rhizome" in white or black depending in a non-techy font
    >> across the front.
    >>
    >> Plus if there were diff songs for each cover, say like a mystery mix, it
    >> would be variety. I could do propaganda here in MN, maybe at the Walker's
    >> Martini Thursdays say, plus I know hella hoodlums and other lowlife music
    >> hitters.
    >>
    >> Main problem is if we can get enough good songs. I'd say that someone who
    >> knows or thinks they know enough good songs by fellows aqui should
    > assemble
    >> the playlists.
    >>
    >> I've got ten I'd say that will hold water, more than enough.
    >>
    >> OK then.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>> From: Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com>
    >>> Reply-To: Michael Szpakowski <szpako@yahoo.com>
    >>> To: Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net>, David Goldschmidt
    > <david@personify.tv>,
    >>> list@rhizome.org, Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>
    >>> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Cash on the table
    >>> Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 06:16:19 -0700 (PDT)
    >>>
    >>> Hi Lee
    >>> I'm not prepared to play 'who gave what amount and
    >>> when' -I actually don't think it's that helpful.
    >>> I've given in the past ( listed as anon) and I've said
    >>> what I'm prepared to give in future - it's not a
    >>> matter thought of individual moralising but of
    >>> establishing a structure that maintains Rhizome and
    >>> access to Rhizome for those who don't have disposable
    >>> income.
    >>> On another note, I'm up for the idea of a CD -why not
    >>> a CD ROM though?, with people donating a work not on
    >>> the artbase - what a great opportunity to combine
    >>> fundraising with showing the enormous diversity of
    >>> work created by those involved in Rhizome.
    >>> (and I'm equally happy to cede my place on such a
    >>> project to someone better known and with more drawing
    >>> power)
    >>> Whatever is decided I'm quite happy to donate either
    >>> an original piece of music or an artwork
    >>> best
    >>> Michael
    >>>
    >>> --- Lee Wells <leewells@bb19.net> wrote:
    >>>> Who has donated money in the last 24 hours.
    >>>> I just gave 11$, a minor amount for the years of
    >>>> enjoyment I've got out of
    >>>> Rhizome. I will continue to donate in the future.
    >>>>
    >>>> Cheers
    >>>> Lee
    >>>>
    >>>> on 10/25/02 7:41 PM, Michael Szpakowski at
    >>>> szpako@yahoo.com wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Rhizome has been really important to me. I have
    >>>>> learned a lot from it plus I got a real sense of a
    >>>>> body of people with similar concerns ( *community*
    >>>>> always seems a tad twee) engaged in a sometimes
    >>>> vastly
    >>>>> irritating but always for me addictive dialogue
    >>>> about
    >>>>> art and it's relationship to the world.
    >>>>> In my ideal world of course it would be funded
    >>>>> generously but if it's not then I for one am
    >>>> certainly
    >>>>> willing to pay a fee to make sure I can get my
    >>>> fix.
    >>>>> I tend to agree with those who think access to the
    >>>>> artbase should be general and free( because it's
    >>>> our
    >>>>> calling card to the wider world). Everything else,
    >>>> in
    >>>>> this imperfect world, I would be happy to cough up
    >>>>> for.
    >>>>> I do take David's point however. It would be a
    >>>> tragedy
    >>>>> if a world which is happy to fund war but not art
    >>>>> forced those without spare cash whether in the USA
    >>>> or
    >>>>> Europe or elsewhere to quit the list and the site.
    >>>>> So I suggest that those of us who can afford it
    >>>> pay
    >>>>> double whatever rate is decided so that free
    >>>>> membership is available to anyone who declares (
    >>>>> privately) an inability to pay the membership fee
    >>>> and
    >>>>> that this system is instituted entirely on trust.
    >>>> A
    >>>>> sort of 'twinning' arrangement.
    >>>>> $15 (Pall's suggestion) doesn't strike me as an
    >>>>> unreasonable basic annual fee. Tonight I spent a
    >>>> fiver
    >>>>> ( =$7.50?) on a bottle of wine. I'd certainly be
    >>>>> comfortable with paying $30 p.a for something I
    >>>> value
    >>>>> a lot under the system I've described.
    >>>>> regards
    >>>>> Michael
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> --- David Goldschmidt <david@personify.tv> wrote:
    >>>>>> i'll pay. although i think the sliding scale
    >>>> should
    >>>>>> be based on where one
    >>>>>> lives. americans and west europeans should pay
    >>>> more
    >>>>>> while folks from less
    >>>>>> affluent regions should pay less (or free).
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> david goldschmidt
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
    >>>>>> From: "Mark Tribe" <mt@rhizome.org>
    >>>>>> To: <list@rhizome.org>
    >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 5:34 PM
    >>>>>> Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Hi Rhizomers:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> I am hoping to start a discussion here on Raw
    >>>>>> about Rhizome's financial
    >>>>>>> situation and a possible solution. This email is
    >>>>>> rather long, but I'd
    >>>>>>> appreciate it if you'd take the time to read it
    >>>>>> through, give it some
    >>>>>>> thought, and let me know what you think.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> First, some background information. It will cost
    >>>>>> about $400,000 to operate
    >>>>>>> Rhizome.org this year. Here's how we spend it:
    >>>>>> $6,000 on administrative
    >>>>>>> fees (mostly processing credit card gifts);
    >>>>>> $122,000 on operating expenses
    >>>>>>> (phone, rent, web hosting, office supplies,
    >>>> etc.);
    >>>>>> $177,000 on payroll
    >>>>>>> costs (salaries, health insurance, payroll
    >>>> taxes,
    >>>>>> etc.); $93,000 on
    >>>>>>> professional fees (writers, commissions,
    >>>>>> consultants, etc.). These numbers
    >>>>>>> may seem high to some of you, but we actually
    >>>> run
    >>>>>> a very lean, efficient
    >>>>>>> operation. It simply costs a lot of money to run
    >>>> a
    >>>>>> nonprofit organization
    >>>>>>> that offers as many programs to as many people
    >>>> as
    >>>>>> we do.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> In the past, most of our revenue has come from
    >>>>>> foundations, but foundation
    >>>>>>> support is shrinking. We had hoped to make up
    >>>> the
    >>>>>> difference through
    >>>>>> earned
    >>>>>>> income from web hosting and online education,
    >>>> but
    >>>>>> those services are
    >>>>>>> getting off to a slow start. We have also, as
    >>>> you
    >>>>>> surely know, tried
    >>>>>> asking
    >>>>>>> for voluntary contributions. But so far this
    >>>> year
    >>>>>> only about 1% of our
    >>>>>>> 19,000 members have made gifts.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> The Rhizome Board of Directors met for its
    >>>>>> quarterly meeting last Friday.
    >>>>>>> The main topic was how to solve our financial
    >>>>>> problems. I proposed putting
    >>>>>>> the organization into hibernation mode. This
    >>>> would
    >>>>>> entail shutting down
    >>>>>> the
    >>>>>>> office, laying off the staff and discontinuing
    >>>>>> most of our programs. We
    >>>>>>> would keep the web site up, ask the SuperUsers
    >>>> to
    >>>>>> continue to publish
    >>>>>>> texts, and keep Raw online. But everything else
    >>>>>> would stop: no more Digest
    >>>>>>> or Net Art News, no more commissions, no more
    >>>>>> events. We'd stop adding new
    >>>>>>> projects to the ArtBase, stop improving the web
    >>>>>> site (we have a long list
    >>>>>>> of bugs to fix and features to add) and stop
    >>>>>> planning new programs.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> The Board felt that hibernation would be a big
    >>>>>> mistake. Once we went into
    >>>>>>> hibernation, they argued, it would be very hard
    >>>> to
    >>>>>> re-emerge and rebuild
    >>>>>>> momentum. Foundations would lose confidence in
    >>>> us
    >>>>>> (not to mention the fact
    >>>>>>> that we wouldn't have anyone to write the
    >>>> grants).
    >>>>>> Most important, our
    >>>>>>> ability to fulfill our mission would be
    >>>>>> compromised.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Then someone suggested charging a membership
    >>>> fee.
    >>>>>> This idea has been
    >>>>>>> proposed before, and I have always opposed it.
    >>>>>> Rhizome is for everyone, I
    >>>>>>> argued, not just for those who can afford it. I
    >>>>>> argued that we'd lose
    >>>>>>> thousands of members and that our community
    >>>> would
    >>>>>> become less diverse.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Then we looked at the numbers. The gap between
    >>>> our
    >>>>>> expenses and what we
    >>>>>> can
    >>>>>>> raise from foundations, the government, earned
    >>>>>> income and other sources is
    >>>>>>> about $100,000. That's about $5 per member. If
    >>>>>> every member gave $5,
    >>>>>>> Rhizome would be financially stable. We could
    >>>>>> continue to grow and serve
    >>>>>>> the community.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> The board argued that we pay to subscribe to
    >>>>>> magazines, to enter museums
    >>>>>>> and to see performances. We pay to attend
    >>>>>> festivals and conferences. Why
    >>>>>>> shouldn't we pay for Rhizome? Because it's
    >>>> online?
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Consider this hypothetical scenario. Let's say
    >>>> we
    >>>>>> introduced a
    >>>>>>> sliding-scale membership fee starting at $11 per
    >>>>>> year with "thank you
    >>>>>>> gifts" (T-shirts, etc.) at higher levels. By
    >>>>>> paying $11 a year (or more if
    >>>>
    >>> === message truncated ===
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> =====
    >>> http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/
    >>>
    >>> __________________________________________________
    >>> Do you Yahoo!?
    >>> Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
    >>> http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
    >>> + new media rugby
    >>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >>> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    >>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    >>> +
    >>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >>> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >>
    >>
    >> _________________________________________________________________
    >> Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try MSN.
    >> http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp
    >>
    >> + new media rugby
    >> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    >> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    >> +
    >> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
    > + new media rugby
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
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