Re: Karl Young

Posted by Rachel Greene | Thu Aug 29th 2002 1 a.m.

thank you for posting this jim-- so relevant art historically, especially
vis a vis new media art -- the pre-homepage days barely exist in most
narratives of the field!! best, rachel

> Many will be familiar with Karl Young's work on the Light & Dust anthology at
> http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/lighthom.htm , which is very different from
> ubu.com but similar
> in that much of the work is archival of pre-web avant garde visual poetry.
> Karl's anthology is
> less full of big names than the www.ubu.com archive, but it also has a deeper
> life in the art of
> the 60's-90's, with particular focus on North American work, but certainly no
> shortage of work
> from around the world, and the best coverage on the Web concerning, say, the
> Lettristes, among
> other relatively little-known but scintillating phenomena.
>
> I see he has put together an extensive site on his own work now at
> http://www.thing.net/~grist/ld/young/young.htm . This is fascinating work in
> its range and
> commentary.
>
> ja
>
> + I love this thread's tuna! Leslie Nielsen
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
  • Jim Andrews | Thu Aug 29th 2002 1 a.m.
    > thank you for posting this jim-- so relevant art historically, especially
    > vis a vis new media art -- the pre-homepage days barely exist in most
    > narratives of the field!! best, rachel
    >
    >
    >
    > > Many will be familiar with Karl Young's work on the Light & Dust anthology at
    > > http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/lighthom.htm , which is very different from
    > > ubu.com but similar
    > > in that much of the work is archival of pre-web avant garde visual poetry.
    > > Karl's anthology is
    > > less full of big names than the www.ubu.com archive, but it also has a deeper
    > > life in the art of
    > > the 60's-90's, with particular focus on North American work, but certainly no
    > > shortage of work
    > > from around the world, and the best coverage on the Web concerning, say, the
    > > Lettristes, among
    > > other relatively little-known but scintillating phenomena.
    > >
    > > I see he has put together an extensive site on his own work now at
    > > http://www.thing.net/~grist/ld/young/young.htm . This is fascinating work in
    > > its range and
    > > commentary.
    > >
    > > ja

    Yes, Karl Young's site is an important site that's of relevance to web/net artists. I have found
    pre-Web pieces there in visual poetry that relate strongly to the techniques and aspirations of
    the Web.artists. If you look at http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/lettrist/lettrist.htm , for
    instance, you see an approach to language associated with Isou and the Lettrists that
    concentrates on the communicative possibilities of the letter, as opposed to
    words-sentences-paragraphs-etc. I'd been doing this myself for a few years before I ran across
    Karl's page on the Lettrists, and was delighted to find work there I'd heard about vaguely but
    had never encountered directly. There are also interesting essays toward the bottom of
    http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/lighthom.htm I've found rewarding concerning the materiality of
    language and concrete poetry, langu(im)age.

    The art of the past is indeed relevant to web/net art. It's instructive to read books like
    Lev's, and Darren Toft's A Pre-History of Cyberspace, and books such as The Art of Memory by
    Francis Yates, which explores the intermedia of Giordano Bruno (who was executed in the
    Inquisition for various heresies, among which was his heliocentrism), and look at the work of
    people such as Richard Kostelanetz, bp Nichol, Steve McCaffery, Laurie Anderson, Burroughs,
    Gregory Whitehead, Helen Thorington etc--some of whom, like Helen, are by no means historical
    figures but are doing energetic work on the Web--intermedia and multimedia do not begin with the
    Web.

    Yet, in A Pre-History of Cyberspace, for instance, there is a tendency to explain the Web away
    as a derivative of history. And any web/net artist is familiar with strong resistance to the
    notion that there is anything new or of value about it, that it is galleryless or not
    authoritatively published second rate work awash in an over-commercialized sea of porn,
    cybermalls, and baby pictures. So that while historicizing criticism is useful, one also feels
    the drag of the forces of dullness in wanting it to stay there.

    In "Toward an Ideal Anthology" ( http://www.thing.net/~grist/ld/young/ide-anth.htm ), Karl Young
    says of poetry and the Web:

    "[Poetry] may continue as a form of exploration rather than certainty. Poetry may fare better in
    such an environment than it did in the 20th Century, though it may change beyond recognition in
    the process."

    He's big enough to say that without the sort of fear and suspicion that one detects in so much
    criticism of poetical/intermedial web/net art that would lump the art away as another form of
    fascist Italian Futurism naive about technology, for instance.

    Web/net artists do need to look at the past carefully, but also press on with great energy into
    the unknown. Web/net art that is at pains to historicize itself is often trapped in the modes of
    perception of other media in ways that defeat it. I'm from a writing and audio background; I
    hear a lot of web writers declaiming about the importance of the past while producing Web work
    that would be better off in a book or on an email list. Web/net artists need to go where such
    work dares not go. Not 'change for the sake of novelty'; but we see how meaning is drained from
    work that is ignorant of or in denial of its own context. As though there was a meaning drain at
    the bottom of the monitor. Archival work like Karl Young's work on Light & Dust is different
    that way, precisely because it is archival and was not made for current media; we approach it
    not as work for the Web but as a gift from the past meant for different media, and we seek the
    relations of that archival work to the current situation.

    ja
  • Max Herman | Fri Aug 30th 2002 1 a.m.
    Richard Kostelanetz

    This dude knows about G2K.

    ++

    >From: Jim Andrews <jim@vispo.com>
    >Reply-To: Jim Andrews <jim@vispo.com>
    >To: "List@Rhizome. Org" <list@rhizome.org>
    >Subject: RE: RHIZOME_RAW: Karl Young
    >Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 16:49:01 -0700
    >
    >
    > > thank you for posting this jim-- so relevant art historically,
    >especially
    > > vis a vis new media art -- the pre-homepage days barely exist in most
    > > narratives of the field!! best, rachel
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > > Many will be familiar with Karl Young's work on the Light & Dust
    >anthology at
    > > > http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/lighthom.htm , which is very different
    >from
    > > > ubu.com but similar
    > > > in that much of the work is archival of pre-web avant garde visual
    >poetry.
    > > > Karl's anthology is
    > > > less full of big names than the www.ubu.com archive, but it also has a
    >deeper
    > > > life in the art of
    > > > the 60's-90's, with particular focus on North American work, but
    >certainly no
    > > > shortage of work
    > > > from around the world, and the best coverage on the Web concerning,
    >say, the
    > > > Lettristes, among
    > > > other relatively little-known but scintillating phenomena.
    > > >
    > > > I see he has put together an extensive site on his own work now at
    > > > http://www.thing.net/~grist/ld/young/young.htm . This is fascinating
    >work in
    > > > its range and
    > > > commentary.
    > > >
    > > > ja
    >
    >Yes, Karl Young's site is an important site that's of relevance to web/net
    >artists. I have found
    >pre-Web pieces there in visual poetry that relate strongly to the
    >techniques and aspirations of
    >the Web.artists. If you look at
    >http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/lettrist/lettrist.htm , for
    >instance, you see an approach to language associated with Isou and the
    >Lettrists that
    >concentrates on the communicative possibilities of the letter, as opposed
    >to
    >words-sentences-paragraphs-etc. I'd been doing this myself for a few years
    >before I ran across
    >Karl's page on the Lettrists, and was delighted to find work there I'd
    >heard about vaguely but
    >had never encountered directly. There are also interesting essays toward
    >the bottom of
    >http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/lighthom.htm I've found rewarding
    >concerning the materiality of
    >language and concrete poetry, langu(im)age.
    >
    >The art of the past is indeed relevant to web/net art. It's instructive to
    >read books like
    >Lev's, and Darren Toft's A Pre-History of Cyberspace, and books such as The
    >Art of Memory by
    >Francis Yates, which explores the intermedia of Giordano Bruno (who was
    >executed in the
    >Inquisition for various heresies, among which was his heliocentrism), and
    >look at the work of
    >people such as Richard Kostelanetz, bp Nichol, Steve McCaffery, Laurie
    >Anderson, Burroughs,
    >Gregory Whitehead, Helen Thorington etc--some of whom, like Helen, are by
    >no means historical
    >figures but are doing energetic work on the Web--intermedia and multimedia
    >do not begin with the
    >Web.
    >
    >Yet, in A Pre-History of Cyberspace, for instance, there is a tendency to
    >explain the Web away
    >as a derivative of history. And any web/net artist is familiar with strong
    >resistance to the
    >notion that there is anything new or of value about it, that it is
    >galleryless or not
    >authoritatively published second rate work awash in an over-commercialized
    >sea of porn,
    >cybermalls, and baby pictures. So that while historicizing criticism is
    >useful, one also feels
    >the drag of the forces of dullness in wanting it to stay there.
    >
    >In "Toward an Ideal Anthology" (
    >http://www.thing.net/~grist/ld/young/ide-anth.htm ), Karl Young
    >says of poetry and the Web:
    >
    >"[Poetry] may continue as a form of exploration rather than certainty.
    >Poetry may fare better in
    >such an environment than it did in the 20th Century, though it may change
    >beyond recognition in
    >the process."
    >
    >He's big enough to say that without the sort of fear and suspicion that one
    >detects in so much
    >criticism of poetical/intermedial web/net art that would lump the art away
    >as another form of
    >fascist Italian Futurism naive about technology, for instance.
    >
    >Web/net artists do need to look at the past carefully, but also press on
    >with great energy into
    >the unknown. Web/net art that is at pains to historicize itself is often
    >trapped in the modes of
    >perception of other media in ways that defeat it. I'm from a writing and
    >audio background; I
    >hear a lot of web writers declaiming about the importance of the past while
    >producing Web work
    >that would be better off in a book or on an email list. Web/net artists
    >need to go where such
    >work dares not go. Not 'change for the sake of novelty'; but we see how
    >meaning is drained from
    >work that is ignorant of or in denial of its own context. As though there
    >was a meaning drain at
    >the bottom of the monitor. Archival work like Karl Young's work on Light &
    >Dust is different
    >that way, precisely because it is archival and was not made for current
    >media; we approach it
    >not as work for the Web but as a gift from the past meant for different
    >media, and we seek the
    >relations of that archival work to the current situation.
    >
    >ja
    >
    >+ I love this thread's tuna! Leslie Nielsen
    >-> post: list@rhizome.org
    >-> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    >+
    >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php

    _________________________________________________________________
    Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Your Reply