How deep is Rhizome stuff rascizm?

Posted by manik vauda marija manik nikola pilipovic | Thu Sep 6th 2007 11:59 a.m.

In last "Rhizome Digest", thread- "Where is The Rhizome", MANIK was represe=
nt with two texts under this title(and few others tight conected with this =
thread but under different names). In 'Digest' MANIK couldn't find his name.

This is proof and sad fact that MANIK was absolutely right considered Rhizo=
me stuff racism.It's not the first time that this stuff wipe MANIK's name f=
rom Digest!

Moreover this racism became institutional(economical) in Rhizome vs. MANIK=
case because previously editor Kevin McGarry order text from MANIK (abou=
t Chris Ashley.if you want you could see that essay in his blog, or in Rhiz=
ome database, and by the way Chris use parts of this essay in his lecture i=
n New Museum-'About bloging',if we remember correctly).

Kevin own 100$ to MANIK for that essay and 40$ for two text in NAN.Instead =
140$ Lauren Cornel pay to MANIK 40$ for two texts published in NAN! And she=
generous "(for) give"25$ for this year Rhizome membership to MANIK).So ins=
tead 140$ MANIK get 40$ in check, and 25 as "gift"! Where's 75$ Rhizome own=
to MANIK?

Is that your stile-steal money from membership?

And after that wipe members name from documents? What should we aspect next=
? Wipe MANIK's name from every database in Rhizome? Wipe even his cloned ob=
ject?

How deep is Rhizome stuff rascizm?

Is that just Rhizome stuff opinion and politics or they having support from=
membership? If members of Rhizome decided to throw MANIK from Raw!?.O.k.!W=
e could accept this kind of 'democracy'. If not, we demand our name and tex=
ts on Digest.

And, of course 75$!

And resignation from Lauren Cornel and Marisa Olsen.

MANIK

Monday, September 03, 2007 12:38 AM

list@rhizome.org <list@rhizome.org>

RHIZOME_RAW: WHERE IS THE RHIZOME?

As always MANIK goes far ahead with ideas and observations. Considered Rhiz=
ome front page: its look like many other Organizations front page. And cont=
ent's same as everywhere.Which mean no trace of something creative. Art-in =
one word.

But "first blood" was Pall's lucid analysis considered Raw.

We wonder how came so many well educated people could observe Raw as separa=
te phenomenon with its own rules, like something which existed in world far=
from any social and ethic /aesthetic fermentation(?!?)Global situation in =
World is very different sense day 'Berlin wall' fall ('89). Other words-thi=
s event mark day when fascism officially win after 44 years! Of course lead=
ing role was USA.Disintegrate of former USSR and bloody war in former Yugos=
lavia were only few consequences of this catastrophy.USA felt so strong to=
take obvious step against civilization and low norm with bombing Serbia '9=
9.NATO and filthy propaganda 'about Serbs ethnical cleaning'(it's just oppo=
site, about 200.000 Serbs was throw out from Kosovo that time and they stil=
l live in Serbia like 'internal displaced persons')was poor excuse for main=
ly USA interest in this area (Kosovo)where America install largest military=
base on the world,Bondsteel.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/camp-bondsteel.htm

Lowly?

But, meanwhile Russia with president Putin find out what's in The Bush.Suro=
unded with republic from former USSR(Georgija,Ukraine,Moldavia.etc)where U=
SA influence became very hard,Rusian decided to make 'bipolar' world. In fe=
w words: Amerika can't make bullshit all over the world anymore. For exampl=
e-USA need Kosovo for strategic control over south Euro-Asia, but now they =
are faced with serious threat.Russia have huge nuclear potential, and also =
they're pissed on American sense they humiliate them in '99 bombing Kosovo.=
President Gorbachov was blackmailed idiot, Jelcin was drunk full, but now =
with Putin American have big problem. War in Iraq goes bad for America-to m=
any dead people. In America slowly but surely grow unpleasant comprehension=
about limitations and serious dangerous for they own safety. In few days w=
e could refresh our memories (9/11) and ask ourselves is there any positive=
change in the world sense this date and this happening (?)We doubt.

New constellation in world strategic (count also on China and India growing=
economic power) and possible Iran atomic bomb.That look like bad dream for=
USA? And it is. In next few month America must make a mowe.USA administrat=
ion promise independent to Shiptars from Kosovo but it won't be easy like =
in '99.Why?Because,one tiny example which is main point. We think (MANIK) t=
o endure possible new NATO bombing more than 79 days as it was last time. T=
hat mean we don't care for our life's anymore. After 17 years of isolation,=
sanction, all kind of humiliation we understand it's better to die than to=
live like slave of American anti-human rule. That also mean we have nothin=
g to loose and we (following) Baudrillard's words could be very dangerous i=
n any sense of this word. America live in overrate Myth of value of life, o=
n the other side this "life "mean American life, not other people life, whi=
ch mean it's all pure rascism.Baudrillard said (paraphrase):"Live in desac=
ralised country(USA)mean that their idea of life have no support in any ot=
her area of spiritual sphere. Idea of sacrifice in Muslim religion show all=
vulnerable of American tiny "ideology"."

What are you going to doo with your precious lifes? Intercontinental missil=
e doesn't care for distance.We believe it's time to live your unconscious a=
nd start to prepare for new big war.Or to change your ideology.That'l be ha=
rd? And that's why you should think about war.

Now, when we became conscience about this unhappy and ugly world, about inj=
ustice which goes far over possibility to call mercy for people who commit =
them (no mercy) about what we could talk on Raw.

That's The Reason Rhizome_Raw's empty, pathetic, and full of nonsense calls=
for submissions.

It could be some tiny chance to talk about dangerous which came so fast and=
inexorability.

First you must forget art and ephemeral thing. In time of dangerous Muses a=
re quiet.

MANIK

__________ NOD32 2498 (20070902) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 2:11 PM

list@rhizome.org <list@rhizome.org>

Fw: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?

Hi Max,

(IDEA OF)Tree in [post]structural way of imagination follow spatial type o=
f
visualizing mind(thinking)which could be explained as 'hyerarhical'.That
mean tree couldn't be 'rhizomatic' because in structure its repeat vertical=
,
or "pyramid "type of imagination(it's not wrong or right, it's just
fact).Vertical imagination mean, in short,base,or root(people) and
administration, leader(treetop).parallels in social structure is
dictatorship and vertical distribution of power(faschism,comunism or
neoliberal/corporative capitalism("West democracy").

Other way supposes dispersion from one point (imagined root) and endless
number of germinate. This is rhizomatic way. You couldn't direct when, how=

much, on which place and with how strong intensity grown of some idea is
going to erupt as brand new and equal (with other) worst or better.

That could be anarchy as last level of democracy ('Society of 'Anonymous
strangers') or 'retro distributions of power'-or, horizontal distribution o=
f
power (prehistory tribe with their distribution of social income and
classification of social influence).

That's why we could see image of some swamp plant on (for example) front
page of Rhizome org.We doubt that any of recent Rhizome org. stuff have
knowledge about that. We wish we are wrong.

MANIK hope that, at least, with his observation could help to recognize
problem of 'rhizomatic' on more complex way.

MANIK

PS:We are sure Curt don't mind we answer on your mail.At least all of us tr=
y
to understand what's going on here.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Max Herman" <maxnmherman@hotmail.com>
To: <list@rhizome.org>
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?

>
> Hi Curt,
>
> I noticed in this text by Dreher I didn't think he talked about Guattari.=

> Did he?
>
> In any case, I looked up Guattari and found out some interesting things.
>
> First off, his main book was called "1000 Plateaus" where each section wa=
s
> dated to represent a time. This reminded me frightfully of my own
> composition of "Genius 2000: a New Network." You may find it impossible=

> to believe but I never read 1000 Plateaus and only found out about its
> format today. Oh well. I also never knew that Pascal said "ineffable
> union" as the main idea of life either. But that's also not believable t=
o
> hear me say that.
>
> Anyhow, I noticed that Guattari wanted to counter the "rhizome"
> composition or form to the "arborescent" i.e. tree-like I would guess.
>
> I've also used the image of the tree in my ideas for a while, such as
> "Political Aesthetics." I think the tree aspect of aesthetics is pretty=

> good and important however so I'm curious why Guattari didn't like it.
>
> Moreover, Guattari's final Plateau is the "noosphere," which is Teilhard=

> de Chardin, who P.B. Medawar is very against, and I cited Medawar in
> Political Aesthetics also.
>
> Maybe it's relevant that computers use a tree structure more so than a
> rhizome structure? Or, sometimes they do? Maybe history goes back and=

> forth, favoring a tree sometimes or a rhizome at other times but neither=

> one is evil per se.
>
>
>
>>From: curt cloninger <curt@lab404.com>
>>Reply-To: curt cloninger <curt@lab404.com>
>>To: list@rhizome.org
>>Subject: Re: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?
>>Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 23:41:31 -0400
>>
>>I think one way to make a listserv dangerous is by using it to make actua=
l
>>art rather than as a para-art promotional platform. This is why posts by=

>>NN, kandinsky42, mez, Dirk Vekemans, Max Herman, manik, and others have=

>>been poet[h]ically appealing to me. They presume that something is
>>happening on the list itself right now, rather than using the list to
>>dialogue about something happening somewhere else.
>>
>>Here is a perspicacious essay on conceptual software art by Thomas Dreher=
,
>>translated from German:
>>http://iasl.uni-muenchen.de/links/NAKSe.html
>>
>>Here are the accompanying illustrations in pdf form:
>>http://iasl.uni-muenchen.de/links/NAKSe.pdf (11 Mb)
>>
>>There amongst examples by Cage, George Brecht, Lewitt, and Debord is a
>>piece I posted to RAW in 2005. Dreher's online essay links to my actual=

>>rhizome post, which now takes you to a page saying that the post is
>>archived and you can no longer view it unless you pay to become a member.
>>
>>http://lyricwiki.org/The_White_Stripes:Little_Cream_Soda ,
>>Curt
>>
>>+++++++
>>
>>pall wrote:
>>
>>That's a great analogy. I definitely think people should look into
>>making Rhizome "dangerous" again.
>>+
>>-> post: list@rhizome.org
>>-> questions: info@rhizome.org
>>-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>>-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>>+
>>Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>>Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
> +
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
> __________ NOD32 2501 (20070903) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
>

+
-> post: list@rhizome.org
-> questions: info@rhizome.org
-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
+
Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php

__________ NOD32 2502 (20070904) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com
  • manik vauda marija manik nikola pilipovic | Thu Sep 6th 2007 12:38 p.m.
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: manik
    To: list@rhizome.org
    Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 4:59 PM
    Subject: How deep is Rhizome stuff rascizm?

    In last "Rhizome Digest", thread- "Where is The Rhizome", MANIK was represe=
    nt with two texts under this title(and few others tight conected with this =
    thread but under different names). In 'Digest' MANIK couldn't find his name.

    This is proof and sad fact that MANIK was absolutely right considered Rhizo=
    me stuff racism.It's not the first time that this stuff wipe MANIK's name f=
    rom Digest!

    Moreover this racism became institutional(economical) in Rhizome vs. MANIK=
    case because previously editor Kevin McGarry order text from MANIK (abou=
    t Chris Ashley.if you want you could see that essay in his blog, or in Rhiz=
    ome database, and by the way Chris use parts of this essay in his lecture i=
    n New Museum-'About bloging',if we remember correctly).

    Kevin own 100$ to MANIK for that essay and 40$ for two text in NAN.Instead =
    140$ Lauren Cornel pay to MANIK 40$ for two texts published in NAN! And she=
    generous "(for) give"25$ for this year Rhizome membership to MANIK).So ins=
    tead 140$ MANIK get 40$ in check, and 25 as "gift"! Where's 75$ Rhizome own=
    to MANIK?

    Is that your stile-steal money from membership?

    And after that wipe members name from documents? What should we aspect next=
    ? Wipe MANIK's name from every database in Rhizome? Wipe even his cloned ob=
    ject?

    How deep is Rhizome stuff rascizm?

    Is that just Rhizome stuff opinion and politics or they having support from=
    membership? If members of Rhizome decided to throw MANIK from Raw!?.O.k.!W=
    e could accept this kind of 'democracy'. If not, we demand our name and tex=
    ts on Digest.

    And, of course 75$!

    And resignation from Lauren Cornel and Marisa Olsen.

    MANIK

    Monday, September 03, 2007 12:38 AM

    list@rhizome.org <list@rhizome.org>

    RHIZOME_RAW: WHERE IS THE RHIZOME?

    As always MANIK goes far ahead with ideas and observations. Considered Rhiz=
    ome front page: its look like many other Organizations front page. And cont=
    ent's same as everywhere.Which mean no trace of something creative. Art-in =
    one word.

    But "first blood" was Pall's lucid analysis considered Raw.

    We wonder how came so many well educated people could observe Raw as separa=
    te phenomenon with its own rules, like something which existed in world far=
    from any social and ethic /aesthetic fermentation(?!?)Global situation in =
    World is very different sense day 'Berlin wall' fall ('89). Other words-thi=
    s event mark day when fascism officially win after 44 years! Of course lead=
    ing role was USA.Disintegrate of former USSR and bloody war in former Yugos=
    lavia were only few consequences of this catastrophy.USA felt so strong to=
    take obvious step against civilization and low norm with bombing Serbia '9=
    9.NATO and filthy propaganda 'about Serbs ethnical cleaning'(it's just oppo=
    site, about 200.000 Serbs was throw out from Kosovo that time and they stil=
    l live in Serbia like 'internal displaced persons')was poor excuse for main=
    ly USA interest in this area (Kosovo)where America install largest military=
    base on the world,Bondsteel.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/camp-bondsteel.htm

    Lowly?

    But, meanwhile Russia with president Putin find out what's in The Bush.Suro=
    unded with republic from former USSR(Georgija,Ukraine,Moldavia.etc)where U=
    SA influence became very hard,Rusian decided to make 'bipolar' world. In fe=
    w words: Amerika can't make bullshit all over the world anymore. For exampl=
    e-USA need Kosovo for strategic control over south Euro-Asia, but now they =
    are faced with serious threat.Russia have huge nuclear potential, and also =
    they're pissed on American sense they humiliate them in '99 bombing Kosovo.=
    President Gorbachov was blackmailed idiot, Jelcin was drunk full, but now =
    with Putin American have big problem. War in Iraq goes bad for America-to m=
    any dead people. In America slowly but surely grow unpleasant comprehension=
    about limitations and serious dangerous for they own safety. In few days w=
    e could refresh our memories (9/11) and ask ourselves is there any positive=
    change in the world sense this date and this happening (?)We doubt.

    New constellation in world strategic (count also on China and India growing=
    economic power) and possible Iran atomic bomb.That look like bad dream for=
    USA? And it is. In next few month America must make a mowe.USA administrat=
    ion promise independent to Shiptars from Kosovo but it won't be easy like =
    in '99.Why?Because,one tiny example which is main point. We think (MANIK) t=
    o endure possible new NATO bombing more than 79 days as it was last time. T=
    hat mean we don't care for our life's anymore. After 17 years of isolation,=
    sanction, all kind of humiliation we understand it's better to die than to=
    live like slave of American anti-human rule. That also mean we have nothin=
    g to loose and we (following) Baudrillard's words could be very dangerous i=
    n any sense of this word. America live in overrate Myth of value of life, o=
    n the other side this "life "mean American life, not other people life, whi=
    ch mean it's all pure rascism.Baudrillard said (paraphrase):"Live in desac=
    ralised country(USA)mean that their idea of life have no support in any ot=
    her area of spiritual sphere. Idea of sacrifice in Muslim religion show all=
    vulnerable of American tiny "ideology"."

    What are you going to doo with your precious lifes? Intercontinental missil=
    e doesn't care for distance.We believe it's time to live your unconscious a=
    nd start to prepare for new big war.Or to change your ideology.That'l be ha=
    rd? And that's why you should think about war.

    Now, when we became conscience about this unhappy and ugly world, about inj=
    ustice which goes far over possibility to call mercy for people who commit =
    them (no mercy) about what we could talk on Raw.

    That's The Reason Rhizome_Raw's empty, pathetic, and full of nonsense calls=
    for submissions.

    It could be some tiny chance to talk about dangerous which came so fast and=
    inexorability.

    First you must forget art and ephemeral thing. In time of dangerous Muses a=
    re quiet.

    MANIK

    __________ NOD32 2498 (20070902) Information __________

    This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    http://www.eset.com

    Tuesday, September 04, 2007 2:11 PM

    list@rhizome.org <list@rhizome.org>

    Fw: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?

    Hi Max,

    (IDEA OF)Tree in [post]structural way of imagination follow spatial type o=
    f
    visualizing mind(thinking)which could be explained as 'hyerarhical'.That
    mean tree couldn't be 'rhizomatic' because in structure its repeat vertical=
    ,
    or "pyramid "type of imagination(it's not wrong or right, it's just
    fact).Vertical imagination mean, in short,base,or root(people) and
    administration, leader(treetop).parallels in social structure is
    dictatorship and vertical distribution of power(faschism,comunism or
    neoliberal/corporative capitalism("West democracy").

    Other way supposes dispersion from one point (imagined root) and endless
    number of germinate. This is rhizomatic way. You couldn't direct when, how=

    much, on which place and with how strong intensity grown of some idea is
    going to erupt as brand new and equal (with other) worst or better.

    That could be anarchy as last level of democracy ('Society of 'Anonymous
    strangers') or 'retro distributions of power'-or, horizontal distribution o=
    f
    power (prehistory tribe with their distribution of social income and
    classification of social influence).

    That's why we could see image of some swamp plant on (for example) front
    page of Rhizome org.We doubt that any of recent Rhizome org. stuff have
    knowledge about that. We wish we are wrong.

    MANIK hope that, at least, with his observation could help to recognize
    problem of 'rhizomatic' on more complex way.

    MANIK

    PS:We are sure Curt don't mind we answer on your mail.At least all of us tr=
    y
    to understand what's going on here.

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Max Herman" <maxnmherman@hotmail.com>
    To: <list@rhizome.org>
    Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 10:40 PM
    Subject: Re: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?

    >
    > Hi Curt,
    >
    > I noticed in this text by Dreher I didn't think he talked about Guattari.=

    > Did he?
    >
    > In any case, I looked up Guattari and found out some interesting things.
    >
    > First off, his main book was called "1000 Plateaus" where each section wa=
    s
    > dated to represent a time. This reminded me frightfully of my own
    > composition of "Genius 2000: a New Network." You may find it impossible=

    > to believe but I never read 1000 Plateaus and only found out about its
    > format today. Oh well. I also never knew that Pascal said "ineffable
    > union" as the main idea of life either. But that's also not believable t=
    o
    > hear me say that.
    >
    > Anyhow, I noticed that Guattari wanted to counter the "rhizome"
    > composition or form to the "arborescent" i.e. tree-like I would guess.
    >
    > I've also used the image of the tree in my ideas for a while, such as
    > "Political Aesthetics." I think the tree aspect of aesthetics is pretty=

    > good and important however so I'm curious why Guattari didn't like it.
    >
    > Moreover, Guattari's final Plateau is the "noosphere," which is Teilhard=

    > de Chardin, who P.B. Medawar is very against, and I cited Medawar in
    > Political Aesthetics also.
    >
    > Maybe it's relevant that computers use a tree structure more so than a
    > rhizome structure? Or, sometimes they do? Maybe history goes back and=

    > forth, favoring a tree sometimes or a rhizome at other times but neither=

    > one is evil per se.
    >
    >
    >
    >>From: curt cloninger <curt@lab404.com>
    >>Reply-To: curt cloninger <curt@lab404.com>
    >>To: list@rhizome.org
    >>Subject: Re: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?
    >>Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 23:41:31 -0400
    >>
    >>I think one way to make a listserv dangerous is by using it to make actua=
    l
    >>art rather than as a para-art promotional platform. This is why posts by=

    >>NN, kandinsky42, mez, Dirk Vekemans, Max Herman, manik, and others have=

    >>been poet[h]ically appealing to me. They presume that something is
    >>happening on the list itself right now, rather than using the list to
    >>dialogue about something happening somewhere else.
    >>
    >>Here is a perspicacious essay on conceptual software art by Thomas Dreher=
    ,
    >>translated from German:
    >>http://iasl.uni-muenchen.de/links/NAKSe.html
    >>
    >>Here are the accompanying illustrations in pdf form:
    >>http://iasl.uni-muenchen.de/links/NAKSe.pdf (11 Mb)
    >>
    >>There amongst examples by Cage, George Brecht, Lewitt, and Debord is a
    >>piece I posted to RAW in 2005. Dreher's online essay links to my actual=

    >>rhizome post, which now takes you to a page saying that the post is
    >>archived and you can no longer view it unless you pay to become a member.
    >>
    >>http://lyricwiki.org/The_White_Stripes:Little_Cream_Soda ,
    >>Curt
    >>
    >>+++++++
    >>
    >>pall wrote:
    >>
    >>That's a great analogy. I definitely think people should look into
    >>making Rhizome "dangerous" again.
    >>+
    >>-> post: list@rhizome.org
    >>-> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >>-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    >>-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    >>+
    >>Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >>Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
    >
    > +
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
    > __________ NOD32 2501 (20070903) Information __________
    >
    > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    > http://www.eset.com
    >
    >

    +
    -> post: list@rhizome.org
    -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    +
    Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php

    __________ NOD32 2502 (20070904) Information __________

    This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    http://www.eset.com
  • Martin John Callanan | Thu Sep 6th 2007 2:04 p.m.
    What race is MANIK?
    What race is Rhizome?

    On 6/9/07 15:59, "manik" <manik@sbb.co.yu> wrote:

    > In last 'Rhizome Digest
  • manik vauda marija manik nikola pilipovic | Thu Sep 6th 2007 2:36 p.m.
    Re: RHIZOME_RAW: How deep is Rhizome stuff rascizm?What race is MARTIN?
    What race is JOHN?
    What race is CALLANAN?
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Martin John Callanan
    To: manik ; rhizome raw
    Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 7:04 PM
    Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: How deep is Rhizome stuff rascizm?

    What race is MANIK?
    What race is Rhizome?

    On 6/9/07 15:59, "manik" <manik@sbb.co.yu> wrote:

    In last "Rhizome Digest", thread- "Where is The Rhizome", MANIK was repre=
    sent with two texts under this title(and few others tight conected with thi=
    s thread but under different names). In 'Digest' MANIK couldn't find his na=
    me.
    This is proof and sad fact that MANIK was absolutely right considered Rhi=
    zome stuff racism.It's not the first time that this stuff wipe MANIK's name=
    from Digest!
    Moreover this racism became institutional(economical) in Rhizome vs. MAN=
    IK case because previously editor Kevin McGarry order text from MANIK (ab=
    out Chris Ashley.if you want you could see that essay in his blog, or in Rh=
    izome database, and by the way Chris use parts of this essay in his lecture=
    in New Museum-'About bloging',if we remember correctly).
    Kevin own 100$ to MANIK for that essay and 40$ for two text in NAN.Instea=
    d 140$ Lauren Cornel pay to MANIK 40$ for two texts published in NAN! And s=
    he generous "(for) give"25$ for this year Rhizome membership to MANIK).So i=
    nstead 140$ MANIK get 40$ in check, and 25 as "gift"! Where's 75$ Rhizome o=
    wn to MANIK?
    Is that your stile-steal money from membership?
    And after that wipe members name from documents? What should we aspect ne=
    xt? Wipe MANIK's name from every database in Rhizome? Wipe even his cloned =
    object?
    How deep is Rhizome stuff rascizm?
    Is that just Rhizome stuff opinion and politics or they having support fr=
    om membership? If members of Rhizome decided to throw MANIK from Raw!?.O.k.=
    !We could accept this kind of 'democracy'. If not, we demand our name and t=
    exts on Digest.
    And, of course 75$!
    And resignation from Lauren Cornel and Marisa Olsen.

    MANIK

    Monday, September 03, 2007 12:38 AM

    list@rhizome.org <list@rhizome.org>

    RHIZOME_RAW: WHERE IS THE RHIZOME?

    As always MANIK goes far ahead with ideas and observations. Considered Rh=
    izome front page: its look like many other Organizations front page. And co=
    ntent's same as everywhere.Which mean no trace of something creative. Art-i=
    n one word.
    But "first blood" was Pall's lucid analysis considered Raw.
    We wonder how came so many well educated people could observe Raw as sepa=
    rate phenomenon with its own rules, like something which existed in world f=
    ar from any social and ethic /aesthetic fermentation(?!?)Global situation i=
    n World is very different sense day 'Berlin wall' fall ('89). Other words-t=
    his event mark day when fascism officially win after 44 years! Of course le=
    ading role was USA.Disintegrate of former USSR and bloody war in former Yug=
    oslavia were only few consequences of this catastrophy.USA felt so strong =
    to take obvious step against civilization and low norm with bombing Serbia =
    '99.NATO and filthy propaganda 'about Serbs ethnical cleaning'(it's just op=
    posite, about 200.000 Serbs was throw out from Kosovo that time and they st=
    ill live in Serbia like 'internal displaced persons')was poor excuse for ma=
    inly USA interest in this area (Kosovo)where America install largest milita=
    ry base on the world,Bondsteel.
    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/camp-bondsteel.htm
    Lowly?
    But, meanwhile Russia with president Putin find out what's in The Bush.Su=
    rounded with republic from former USSR(Georgija,Ukraine,Moldavia.etc)where=
    USA influence became very hard,Rusian decided to make 'bipolar' world. In =
    few words: Amerika can't make bullshit all over the world anymore. For exam=
    ple-USA need Kosovo for strategic control over south Euro-Asia, but now the=
    y are faced with serious threat.Russia have huge nuclear potential, and als=
    o they're pissed on American sense they humiliate them in '99 bombing Kosov=
    o. President Gorbachov was blackmailed idiot, Jelcin was drunk full, but no=
    w with Putin American have big problem. War in Iraq goes bad for America-to=
    many dead people. In America slowly but surely grow unpleasant comprehensi=
    on about limitations and serious dangerous for they own safety. In few days=
    we could refresh our memories (9/11) and ask ourselves is there any positi=
    ve change in the world sense this date and this happening (?)We doubt.
    New constellation in world strategic (count also on China and India growi=
    ng economic power) and possible Iran atomic bomb.That look like bad dream f=
    or USA? And it is. In next few month America must make a mowe.USA administr=
    ation promise independent to Shiptars from Kosovo but it won't be easy lik=
    e in '99.Why?Because,one tiny example which is main point. We think (MANIK)=
    to endure possible new NATO bombing more than 79 days as it was last time.=
    That mean we don't care for our life's anymore. After 17 years of isolatio=
    n, sanction, all kind of humiliation we understand it's better to die than =
    to live like slave of American anti-human rule. That also mean we have noth=
    ing to loose and we (following) Baudrillard's words could be very dangerous=
    in any sense of this word. America live in overrate Myth of value of life,=
    on the other side this "life "mean American life, not other people life, w=
    hich mean it's all pure rascism.Baudrillard said (paraphrase):"Live in des=
    acralised country(USA)mean that their idea of life have no support in any =
    other area of spiritual sphere. Idea of sacrifice in Muslim religion show a=
    ll vulnerable of American tiny "ideology"."

    What are you going to doo with your precious lifes? Intercontinental miss=
    ile doesn't care for distance.We believe it's time to live your unconscious=
    and start to prepare for new big war.Or to change your ideology.That'l be =
    hard? And that's why you should think about war.
    Now, when we became conscience about this unhappy and ugly world, about i=
    njustice which goes far over possibility to call mercy for people who commi=
    t them (no mercy) about what we could talk on Raw.
    That's The Reason Rhizome_Raw's empty, pathetic, and full of nonsense cal=
    ls for submissions.
    It could be some tiny chance to talk about dangerous which came so fast a=
    nd inexorability.
    First you must forget art and ephemeral thing. In time of dangerous Muses=
    are quiet.
    MANIK

    __________ NOD32 2498 (20070902) Information __________

    This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    http://www.eset.com

    Tuesday, September 04, 2007 2:11 PM

    list@rhizome.org <list@rhizome.org>

    Fw: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?

    Hi Max,

    (IDEA OF)Tree in [post]structural way of imagination follow spatial type=
    of
    visualizing mind(thinking)which could be explained as 'hyerarhical'.That=

    mean tree couldn't be 'rhizomatic' because in structure its repeat vertic=
    al,
    or "pyramid "type of imagination(it's not wrong or right, it's just
    fact).Vertical imagination mean, in short,base,or root(people) and
    administration, leader(treetop).parallels in social structure is
    dictatorship and vertical distribution of power(faschism,comunism or
    neoliberal/corporative capitalism("West democracy").

    Other way supposes dispersion from one point (imagined root) and endless=

    number of germinate. This is rhizomatic way. You couldn't direct when, ho=
    w
    much, on which place and with how strong intensity grown of some idea is=

    going to erupt as brand new and equal (with other) worst or better.

    That could be anarchy as last level of democracy ('Society of 'Anonymous=

    strangers') or 'retro distributions of power'-or, horizontal distribution=
    of
    power (prehistory tribe with their distribution of social income and
    classification of social influence).

    That's why we could see image of some swamp plant on (for example) front=

    page of Rhizome org.We doubt that any of recent Rhizome org. stuff have=

    knowledge about that. We wish we are wrong.

    MANIK hope that, at least, with his observation could help to recognize=

    problem of 'rhizomatic' on more complex way.

    MANIK

    PS:We are sure Curt don't mind we answer on your mail.At least all of us =
    try
    to understand what's going on here.

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Max Herman" <maxnmherman@hotmail.com>
    To: <list@rhizome.org>
    Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 10:40 PM
    Subject: Re: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?

    >
    > Hi Curt,
    >
    > I noticed in this text by Dreher I didn't think he talked about Guattar=
    i.
    > Did he?
    >
    > In any case, I looked up Guattari and found out some interesting things.
    >
    > First off, his main book was called "1000 Plateaus" where each section =
    was
    > dated to represent a time. This reminded me frightfully of my own
    > composition of "Genius 2000: a New Network." You may find it impossibl=
    e
    > to believe but I never read 1000 Plateaus and only found out about its=

    > format today. Oh well. I also never knew that Pascal said "ineffable=

    > union" as the main idea of life either. But that's also not believable=
    to
    > hear me say that.
    >
    > Anyhow, I noticed that Guattari wanted to counter the "rhizome"
    > composition or form to the "arborescent" i.e. tree-like I would guess.
    >
    > I've also used the image of the tree in my ideas for a while, such as=

    > "Political Aesthetics." I think the tree aspect of aesthetics is prett=
    y
    > good and important however so I'm curious why Guattari didn't like it.
    >
    > Moreover, Guattari's final Plateau is the "noosphere," which is Teilhar=
    d
    > de Chardin, who P.B. Medawar is very against, and I cited Medawar in
    > Political Aesthetics also.
    >
    > Maybe it's relevant that computers use a tree structure more so than a=

    > rhizome structure? Or, sometimes they do? Maybe history goes back and=

    > forth, favoring a tree sometimes or a rhizome at other times but neithe=
    r
    > one is evil per se.
    >
    >
    >
    >>From: curt cloninger <curt@lab404.com>
    >>Reply-To: curt cloninger <curt@lab404.com>
    >>To: list@rhizome.org
    >>Subject: Re: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?
    >>Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 23:41:31 -0400
    >>
    >>I think one way to make a listserv dangerous is by using it to make act=
    ual
    >>art rather than as a para-art promotional platform. This is why posts =
    by
    >>NN, kandinsky42, mez, Dirk Vekemans, Max Herman, manik, and others have=

    >>been poet[h]ically appealing to me. They presume that something is
    >>happening on the list itself right now, rather than using the list to=

    >>dialogue about something happening somewhere else.
    >>
    >>Here is a perspicacious essay on conceptual software art by Thomas Dreh=
    er,
    >>translated from German:
    >>http://iasl.uni-muenchen.de/links/NAKSe.html
    >>
    >>Here are the accompanying illustrations in pdf form:
    >>http://iasl.uni-muenchen.de/links/NAKSe.pdf (11 Mb)
    >>
    >>There amongst examples by Cage, George Brecht, Lewitt, and Debord is a=

    >>piece I posted to RAW in 2005. Dreher's online essay links to my actua=
    l
    >>rhizome post, which now takes you to a page saying that the post is
    >>archived and you can no longer view it unless you pay to become a membe=
    r.
    >>
    >>http://lyricwiki.org/The_White_Stripes:Little_Cream_Soda ,
    >>Curt
    >>
    >>+++++++
    >>
    >>pall wrote:
    >>
    >>That's a great analogy. I definitely think people should look into
    >>making Rhizome "dangerous" again.
    >>+
    >>-> post: list@rhizome.org
    >>-> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >>-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    >>-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    >>+
    >>Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >>Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
    >
    > +
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
    > __________ NOD32 2501 (20070903) Information __________
    >
    > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    > http://www.eset.com <http://www.eset.com/>
    >
    >

    +
    -> post: list@rhizome.org
    -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    +
    Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php

    __________ NOD32 2502 (20070904) Information __________

    This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    http://www.eset.com <http://www.eset.com/>

    Martin John Callanan
    http://greyisgood.eu

    Location of I
    http://location.greyisgood.eu

    __________ NOD32 2510 (20070906) Information __________

    This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    http://www.eset.com
  • Robert Spahr | Thu Sep 6th 2007 3:01 p.m.
    It's not who wins the race that counts, but the process of getting
    across the finish line

    On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:04:36 +0100
    Martin John Callanan <m@greyisgood.eu> wrote:

    > What race is MANIK?
    > What race is Rhizome?
    >
    > On 6/9/07 15:59, "manik" <manik@sbb.co.yu> wrote:
    >
    > > In last 'Rhizome Digest
  • manik vauda marija manik nikola pilipovic | Fri Sep 7th 2007 9:39 a.m.
    What race is the finish line?
    MANIK
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Robert Spahr" <rob@robertspahr.com>
    To: "Martin John Callanan" <m@greyisgood.eu>
    Cc: "manik" <manik@sbb.co.yu>; "rhizome raw" <list@rhizome.org>
    Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:00 PM
    Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: How deep is Rhizome stuff rascizm?

    >
    > It's not who wins the race that counts, but the process of getting
    > across the finish line
    >
    >
    > On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:04:36 +0100
    > Martin John Callanan <m@greyisgood.eu> wrote:
    >
    >> What race is MANIK?
    >> What race is Rhizome?
    >>
    >> On 6/9/07 15:59, "manik" <manik@sbb.co.yu> wrote:
    >>
    >> > In last "Rhizome Digest", thread- "Where is The Rhizome", MANIK was
    >> > represent with two texts under this title(and few others tight
    >> > conected with this thread but under different names). In 'Digest'
    >> > MANIK couldn't find his name. This is proof and sad fact that MANIK
    >> > was absolutely right considered Rhizome stuff racism.It's not the
    >> > first time that this stuff wipe MANIK's name from Digest!
    >> > Moreover this racism became institutional(economical) in Rhizome
    >> > vs. MANIK case because previously editor Kevin McGarry order text
    >> > from MANIK (about Chris Ashley.if you want you could see that essay
    >> > in his blog, or in Rhizome database, and by the way Chris use parts
    >> > of this essay in his lecture in New Museum-'About bloging',if we
    >> > remember correctly). Kevin own 100$ to MANIK for that essay and 40$
    >> > for two text in NAN.Instead 140$ Lauren Cornel pay to MANIK 40$ for
    >> > two texts published in NAN! And she generous "(for) give"25$ for
    >> > this year Rhizome membership to MANIK).So instead 140$ MANIK get
    >> > 40$ in check, and 25 as "gift"! Where's 75$ Rhizome own to MANIK?
    >> > Is that your stile-steal money from membership?
    >> > And after that wipe members name from documents? What should we
    >> > aspect next? Wipe MANIK's name from every database in Rhizome? Wipe
    >> > even his cloned object? How deep is Rhizome stuff rascizm?
    >> > Is that just Rhizome stuff opinion and politics or they having
    >> > support from membership? If members of Rhizome decided to throw
    >> > MANIK from Raw!?.O.k.!We could accept this kind of 'democracy'. If
    >> > not, we demand our name and texts on Digest.
    >> > And, of course 75$!
    >> > And resignation from Lauren Cornel and Marisa Olsen.
    >> >
    >> > MANIK
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > Monday, September 03, 2007 12:38 AM
    >> >
    >> > list@rhizome.org <list@rhizome.org>
    >> >
    >> > RHIZOME_RAW: WHERE IS THE RHIZOME?
    >> >
    >> > As always MANIK goes far ahead with ideas and observations.
    >> > Considered Rhizome front page: its look like many other
    >> > Organizations front page. And content's same as everywhere.Which
    >> > mean no trace of something creative. Art-in one word. But "first
    >> > blood" was Pall's lucid analysis considered Raw. We wonder how came
    >> > so many well educated people could observe Raw as separate
    >> > phenomenon with its own rules, like something which existed in
    >> > world far from any social and ethic /aesthetic
    >> > fermentation(?!?)Global situation in World is very different sense
    >> > day 'Berlin wall' fall ('89). Other words-this event mark day when
    >> > fascism officially win after 44 years! Of course leading role was
    >> > USA.Disintegrate of former USSR and bloody war in former Yugoslavia
    >> > were only few consequences of this catastrophy.USA felt so strong
    >> > to take obvious step against civilization and low norm with bombing
    >> > Serbia '99.NATO and filthy propaganda 'about Serbs ethnical
    >> > cleaning'(it's just opposite, about 200.000 Serbs was throw out
    >> > from Kosovo that time and they still live in Serbia like 'internal
    >> > displaced persons')was poor excuse for mainly USA interest in this
    >> > area (Kosovo)where America install largest military base on the
    >> > world,Bondsteel.
    >> > http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/camp-bondsteel.htm
    >> > Lowly? But, meanwhile Russia with president Putin find out what's
    >> > in The Bush.Surounded with republic from former
    >> > USSR(Georgija,Ukraine,Moldavia.etc)where USA influence became very
    >> > hard,Rusian decided to make 'bipolar' world. In few words: Amerika
    >> > can't make bullshit all over the world anymore. For example-USA
    >> > need Kosovo for strategic control over south Euro-Asia, but now
    >> > they are faced with serious threat.Russia have huge nuclear
    >> > potential, and also they're pissed on American sense they humiliate
    >> > them in '99 bombing Kosovo. President Gorbachov was blackmailed
    >> > idiot, Jelcin was drunk full, but now with Putin American have big
    >> > problem. War in Iraq goes bad for America-to many dead people. In
    >> > America slowly but surely grow unpleasant comprehension about
    >> > limitations and serious dangerous for they own safety. In few days
    >> > we could refresh our memories (9/11) and ask ourselves is there any
    >> > positive change in the world sense this date and this happening
    >> > (?)We doubt. New constellation in world strategic (count also on
    >> > China and India growing economic power) and possible Iran atomic
    >> > bomb.That look like bad dream for USA? And it is. In next few month
    >> > America must make a mowe.USA administration promise independent to
    >> > Shiptars from Kosovo but it won't be easy like
    >> > in '99.Why?Because,one tiny example which is main point. We think
    >> > (MANIK) to endure possible new NATO bombing more than 79 days as it
    >> > was last time. That mean we don't care for our life's anymore.
    >> > After 17 years of isolation, sanction, all kind of humiliation we
    >> > understand it's better to die than to live like slave of American
    >> > anti-human rule. That also mean we have nothing to loose and we
    >> > (following) Baudrillard's words could be very dangerous in any
    >> > sense of this word. America live in overrate Myth of value of life,
    >> > on the other side this "life "mean American life, not other people
    >> > life, which mean it's all pure rascism.Baudrillard said
    >> > (paraphrase):"Live in desacralised country(USA)mean that their
    >> > idea of life have no support in any other area of spiritual sphere.
    >> > Idea of sacrifice in Muslim religion show all vulnerable of
    >> > American tiny "ideology"." What are you going to doo with your
    >> > precious lifes? Intercontinental missile doesn't care for
    >> > distance.We believe it's time to live your unconscious and start to
    >> > prepare for new big war.Or to change your ideology.That'l be hard?
    >> > And that's why you should think about war. Now, when we became
    >> > conscience about this unhappy and ugly world, about injustice which
    >> > goes far over possibility to call mercy for people who commit them
    >> > (no mercy) about what we could talk on Raw. That's The Reason
    >> > Rhizome_Raw's empty, pathetic, and full of nonsense calls for
    >> > submissions. It could be some tiny chance to talk about dangerous
    >> > which came so fast and inexorability. First you must forget art and
    >> > ephemeral thing. In time of dangerous Muses are quiet. MANIK
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > __________ NOD32 2498 (20070902) Information __________
    >> >
    >> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    >> > http://www.eset.com
    >> >
    >> > Tuesday, September 04, 2007 2:11 PM
    >> >
    >> > list@rhizome.org <list@rhizome.org>
    >> >
    >> > Fw: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > Hi Max,
    >> >
    >> > (IDEA OF)Tree in [post]structural way of imagination follow
    >> > spatial type of visualizing mind(thinking)which could be explained
    >> > as 'hyerarhical'.That mean tree couldn't be 'rhizomatic' because in
    >> > structure its repeat vertical, or "pyramid "type of
    >> > imagination(it's not wrong or right, it's just fact).Vertical
    >> > imagination mean, in short,base,or root(people) and administration,
    >> > leader(treetop).parallels in social structure is dictatorship and
    >> > vertical distribution of power(faschism,comunism or
    >> > neoliberal/corporative capitalism("West democracy").
    >> >
    >> > Other way supposes dispersion from one point (imagined root) and
    >> > endless number of germinate. This is rhizomatic way. You couldn't
    >> > direct when, how much, on which place and with how strong intensity
    >> > grown of some idea is going to erupt as brand new and equal (with
    >> > other) worst or better.
    >> >
    >> > That could be anarchy as last level of democracy ('Society of
    >> > 'Anonymous strangers') or 'retro distributions of power'-or,
    >> > horizontal distribution of power (prehistory tribe with their
    >> > distribution of social income and classification of social
    >> > influence).
    >> >
    >> > That's why we could see image of some swamp plant on (for example)
    >> > front page of Rhizome org.We doubt that any of recent Rhizome org.
    >> > stuff have knowledge about that. We wish we are wrong.
    >> >
    >> > MANIK hope that, at least, with his observation could help to
    >> > recognize problem of 'rhizomatic' on more complex way.
    >> >
    >> > MANIK
    >> >
    >> > PS:We are sure Curt don't mind we answer on your mail.At least all
    >> > of us try to understand what's going on here.
    >> >
    >> > ----- Original Message -----
    >> > From: "Max Herman" <maxnmherman@hotmail.com>
    >> > To: <list@rhizome.org>
    >> > Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 10:40 PM
    >> > Subject: Re: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >> >
    >> >> > Hi Curt,
    >> >> >
    >> >> > I noticed in this text by Dreher I didn't think he talked about
    >> >> > Guattari. Did he?
    >> >> >
    >> >> > In any case, I looked up Guattari and found out some interesting
    >> >> > things.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > First off, his main book was called "1000 Plateaus" where each
    >> >> > section was dated to represent a time. This reminded me
    >> >> > frightfully of my own composition of "Genius 2000: a New
    >> >> > Network." You may find it impossible to believe but I never
    >> >> > read 1000 Plateaus and only found out about its format today.
    >> >> > Oh well. I also never knew that Pascal said "ineffable union"
    >> >> > as the main idea of life either. But that's also not believable
    >> >> > to hear me say that.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > Anyhow, I noticed that Guattari wanted to counter the "rhizome"
    >> >> > composition or form to the "arborescent" i.e. tree-like I would
    >> >> > guess.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > I've also used the image of the tree in my ideas for a while,
    >> >> > such as "Political Aesthetics." I think the tree aspect of
    >> >> > aesthetics is pretty good and important however so I'm curious
    >> >> > why Guattari didn't like it.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > Moreover, Guattari's final Plateau is the "noosphere," which is
    >> >> > Teilhard de Chardin, who P.B. Medawar is very against, and I
    >> >> > cited Medawar in Political Aesthetics also.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > Maybe it's relevant that computers use a tree structure more so
    >> >> > than a rhizome structure? Or, sometimes they do? Maybe history
    >> >> > goes back and forth, favoring a tree sometimes or a rhizome at
    >> >> > other times but neither one is evil per se.
    >> >> >
    >> >> >
    >> >> >
    >> >>> >>From: curt cloninger <curt@lab404.com>
    >> >>> >>Reply-To: curt cloninger <curt@lab404.com>
    >> >>> >>To: list@rhizome.org
    >> >>> >>Subject: Re: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?
    >> >>> >>Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 23:41:31 -0400
    >> >>> >>
    >> >>> >>I think one way to make a listserv dangerous is by using it to
    >> >>> >>make actual art rather than as a para-art promotional
    >> >>> >>platform. This is why posts by NN, kandinsky42, mez, Dirk
    >> >>> >>Vekemans, Max Herman, manik, and others have been poet[h]ically
    >> >>> >>appealing to me. They presume that something is happening on
    >> >>> >>the list itself right now, rather than using the list to
    >> >>> >>dialogue about something happening somewhere else.
    >> >>> >>
    >> >>> >>Here is a perspicacious essay on conceptual software art by
    >> >>> >>Thomas Dreher, translated from German:
    >> >>> >>http://iasl.uni-muenchen.de/links/NAKSe.html
    >> >>> >>
    >> >>> >>Here are the accompanying illustrations in pdf form:
    >> >>> >>http://iasl.uni-muenchen.de/links/NAKSe.pdf (11 Mb)
    >> >>> >>
    >> >>> >>There amongst examples by Cage, George Brecht, Lewitt, and
    >> >>> >>Debord is a piece I posted to RAW in 2005. Dreher's online
    >> >>> >>essay links to my actual rhizome post, which now takes you to a
    >> >>> >>page saying that the post is archived and you can no longer
    >> >>> >>view it unless you pay to become a member.
    >> >>> >>
    >> >>> >>http://lyricwiki.org/The_White_Stripes:Little_Cream_Soda ,
    >> >>> >>Curt
    >> >>> >>
    >> >>> >>+++++++
    >> >>> >>
    >> >>> >>pall wrote:
    >> >>> >>
    >> >>> >>That's a great analogy. I definitely think people should look
    >> >>> >>into making Rhizome "dangerous" again.
    >> >>> >>+
    >> >>> >>-> post: list@rhizome.org
    >> >>> >>-> questions: info@rhizome.org
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    >> >>> >>http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >> >> >
    >> >> >
    >> >> > +
    >> >> > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >> >> > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
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    >> >> > Membership Agreement available online at
    >> >> > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >> >> >
    >> >> > __________ NOD32 2501 (20070903) Information __________
    >> >> >
    >> >> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    >> >> > http://www.eset.com <http://www.eset.com/>
    >> >> >
    >> >> >
    >> >
    >> > +
    >> > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >> > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
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    >> >
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Martin John Callanan
    >> http://greyisgood.eu
    >>
    >> Location of I
    >> http://location.greyisgood.eu
    >>
    >>
    >
    >
    > --
    > Robert Spahr
    > http://www.robertspahr.com
    >
    > "If we understand the mechanism and motives of the
    > group mind, is it not possible to control and
    > regiment the masses according to our will without
    > their knowing about it?" -- Edward L. Bernays
    >
    > +
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
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    >
  • Pall Thayer | Fri Sep 7th 2007 10:58 a.m.
    How deep is your love?
    I really need to learn
    Cause we're living in a world of fools
    Breaking us down
    When they all should let us be

    On 9/7/07, manik <manik@sbb.co.yu> wrote:
    > What race is the finish line?
    > MANIK
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "Robert Spahr" <rob@robertspahr.com>
    > To: "Martin John Callanan" <m@greyisgood.eu>
    > Cc: "manik" <manik@sbb.co.yu>; "rhizome raw" <list@rhizome.org>
    > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:00 PM
    > Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: How deep is Rhizome stuff rascizm?
    >
    >
    > >
    > > It's not who wins the race that counts, but the process of getting
    > > across the finish line
    > >
    > >
    > > On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:04:36 +0100
    > > Martin John Callanan <m@greyisgood.eu> wrote:
    > >
    > >> What race is MANIK?
    > >> What race is Rhizome?
    > >>
    > >> On 6/9/07 15:59, "manik" <manik@sbb.co.yu> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> > In last "Rhizome Digest", thread- "Where is The Rhizome", MANIK was
    > >> > represent with two texts under this title(and few others tight
    > >> > conected with this thread but under different names). In 'Digest'
    > >> > MANIK couldn't find his name. This is proof and sad fact that MANIK
    > >> > was absolutely right considered Rhizome stuff racism.It's not the
    > >> > first time that this stuff wipe MANIK's name from Digest!
    > >> > Moreover this racism became institutional(economical) in Rhizome
    > >> > vs. MANIK case because previously editor Kevin McGarry order text
    > >> > from MANIK (about Chris Ashley.if you want you could see that essay
    > >> > in his blog, or in Rhizome database, and by the way Chris use parts
    > >> > of this essay in his lecture in New Museum-'About bloging',if we
    > >> > remember correctly). Kevin own 100$ to MANIK for that essay and 40$
    > >> > for two text in NAN.Instead 140$ Lauren Cornel pay to MANIK 40$ for
    > >> > two texts published in NAN! And she generous "(for) give"25$ for
    > >> > this year Rhizome membership to MANIK).So instead 140$ MANIK get
    > >> > 40$ in check, and 25 as "gift"! Where's 75$ Rhizome own to MANIK?
    > >> > Is that your stile-steal money from membership?
    > >> > And after that wipe members name from documents? What should we
    > >> > aspect next? Wipe MANIK's name from every database in Rhizome? Wipe
    > >> > even his cloned object? How deep is Rhizome stuff rascizm?
    > >> > Is that just Rhizome stuff opinion and politics or they having
    > >> > support from membership? If members of Rhizome decided to throw
    > >> > MANIK from Raw!?.O.k.!We could accept this kind of 'democracy'. If
    > >> > not, we demand our name and texts on Digest.
    > >> > And, of course 75$!
    > >> > And resignation from Lauren Cornel and Marisa Olsen.
    > >> >
    > >> > MANIK
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> > Monday, September 03, 2007 12:38 AM
    > >> >
    > >> > list@rhizome.org <list@rhizome.org>
    > >> >
    > >> > RHIZOME_RAW: WHERE IS THE RHIZOME?
    > >> >
    > >> > As always MANIK goes far ahead with ideas and observations.
    > >> > Considered Rhizome front page: its look like many other
    > >> > Organizations front page. And content's same as everywhere.Which
    > >> > mean no trace of something creative. Art-in one word. But "first
    > >> > blood" was Pall's lucid analysis considered Raw. We wonder how came
    > >> > so many well educated people could observe Raw as separate
    > >> > phenomenon with its own rules, like something which existed in
    > >> > world far from any social and ethic /aesthetic
    > >> > fermentation(?!?)Global situation in World is very different sense
    > >> > day 'Berlin wall' fall ('89). Other words-this event mark day when
    > >> > fascism officially win after 44 years! Of course leading role was
    > >> > USA.Disintegrate of former USSR and bloody war in former Yugoslavia
    > >> > were only few consequences of this catastrophy.USA felt so strong
    > >> > to take obvious step against civilization and low norm with bombing
    > >> > Serbia '99.NATO and filthy propaganda 'about Serbs ethnical
    > >> > cleaning'(it's just opposite, about 200.000 Serbs was throw out
    > >> > from Kosovo that time and they still live in Serbia like 'internal
    > >> > displaced persons')was poor excuse for mainly USA interest in this
    > >> > area (Kosovo)where America install largest military base on the
    > >> > world,Bondsteel.
    > >> > http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/camp-bondsteel.htm
    > >> > Lowly? But, meanwhile Russia with president Putin find out what's
    > >> > in The Bush.Surounded with republic from former
    > >> > USSR(Georgija,Ukraine,Moldavia.etc)where USA influence became very
    > >> > hard,Rusian decided to make 'bipolar' world. In few words: Amerika
    > >> > can't make bullshit all over the world anymore. For example-USA
    > >> > need Kosovo for strategic control over south Euro-Asia, but now
    > >> > they are faced with serious threat.Russia have huge nuclear
    > >> > potential, and also they're pissed on American sense they humiliate
    > >> > them in '99 bombing Kosovo. President Gorbachov was blackmailed
    > >> > idiot, Jelcin was drunk full, but now with Putin American have big
    > >> > problem. War in Iraq goes bad for America-to many dead people. In
    > >> > America slowly but surely grow unpleasant comprehension about
    > >> > limitations and serious dangerous for they own safety. In few days
    > >> > we could refresh our memories (9/11) and ask ourselves is there any
    > >> > positive change in the world sense this date and this happening
    > >> > (?)We doubt. New constellation in world strategic (count also on
    > >> > China and India growing economic power) and possible Iran atomic
    > >> > bomb.That look like bad dream for USA? And it is. In next few month
    > >> > America must make a mowe.USA administration promise independent to
    > >> > Shiptars from Kosovo but it won't be easy like
    > >> > in '99.Why?Because,one tiny example which is main point. We think
    > >> > (MANIK) to endure possible new NATO bombing more than 79 days as it
    > >> > was last time. That mean we don't care for our life's anymore.
    > >> > After 17 years of isolation, sanction, all kind of humiliation we
    > >> > understand it's better to die than to live like slave of American
    > >> > anti-human rule. That also mean we have nothing to loose and we
    > >> > (following) Baudrillard's words could be very dangerous in any
    > >> > sense of this word. America live in overrate Myth of value of life,
    > >> > on the other side this "life "mean American life, not other people
    > >> > life, which mean it's all pure rascism.Baudrillard said
    > >> > (paraphrase):"Live in desacralised country(USA)mean that their
    > >> > idea of life have no support in any other area of spiritual sphere.
    > >> > Idea of sacrifice in Muslim religion show all vulnerable of
    > >> > American tiny "ideology"." What are you going to doo with your
    > >> > precious lifes? Intercontinental missile doesn't care for
    > >> > distance.We believe it's time to live your unconscious and start to
    > >> > prepare for new big war.Or to change your ideology.That'l be hard?
    > >> > And that's why you should think about war. Now, when we became
    > >> > conscience about this unhappy and ugly world, about injustice which
    > >> > goes far over possibility to call mercy for people who commit them
    > >> > (no mercy) about what we could talk on Raw. That's The Reason
    > >> > Rhizome_Raw's empty, pathetic, and full of nonsense calls for
    > >> > submissions. It could be some tiny chance to talk about dangerous
    > >> > which came so fast and inexorability. First you must forget art and
    > >> > ephemeral thing. In time of dangerous Muses are quiet. MANIK
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> > __________ NOD32 2498 (20070902) Information __________
    > >> >
    > >> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    > >> > http://www.eset.com
    > >> >
    > >> > Tuesday, September 04, 2007 2:11 PM
    > >> >
    > >> > list@rhizome.org <list@rhizome.org>
    > >> >
    > >> > Fw: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> > Hi Max,
    > >> >
    > >> > (IDEA OF)Tree in [post]structural way of imagination follow
    > >> > spatial type of visualizing mind(thinking)which could be explained
    > >> > as 'hyerarhical'.That mean tree couldn't be 'rhizomatic' because in
    > >> > structure its repeat vertical, or "pyramid "type of
    > >> > imagination(it's not wrong or right, it's just fact).Vertical
    > >> > imagination mean, in short,base,or root(people) and administration,
    > >> > leader(treetop).parallels in social structure is dictatorship and
    > >> > vertical distribution of power(faschism,comunism or
    > >> > neoliberal/corporative capitalism("West democracy").
    > >> >
    > >> > Other way supposes dispersion from one point (imagined root) and
    > >> > endless number of germinate. This is rhizomatic way. You couldn't
    > >> > direct when, how much, on which place and with how strong intensity
    > >> > grown of some idea is going to erupt as brand new and equal (with
    > >> > other) worst or better.
    > >> >
    > >> > That could be anarchy as last level of democracy ('Society of
    > >> > 'Anonymous strangers') or 'retro distributions of power'-or,
    > >> > horizontal distribution of power (prehistory tribe with their
    > >> > distribution of social income and classification of social
    > >> > influence).
    > >> >
    > >> > That's why we could see image of some swamp plant on (for example)
    > >> > front page of Rhizome org.We doubt that any of recent Rhizome org.
    > >> > stuff have knowledge about that. We wish we are wrong.
    > >> >
    > >> > MANIK hope that, at least, with his observation could help to
    > >> > recognize problem of 'rhizomatic' on more complex way.
    > >> >
    > >> > MANIK
    > >> >
    > >> > PS:We are sure Curt don't mind we answer on your mail.At least all
    > >> > of us try to understand what's going on here.
    > >> >
    > >> > ----- Original Message -----
    > >> > From: "Max Herman" <maxnmherman@hotmail.com>
    > >> > To: <list@rhizome.org>
    > >> > Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 10:40 PM
    > >> > Subject: Re: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> > Hi Curt,
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> > I noticed in this text by Dreher I didn't think he talked about
    > >> >> > Guattari. Did he?
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> > In any case, I looked up Guattari and found out some interesting
    > >> >> > things.
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> > First off, his main book was called "1000 Plateaus" where each
    > >> >> > section was dated to represent a time. This reminded me
    > >> >> > frightfully of my own composition of "Genius 2000: a New
    > >> >> > Network." You may find it impossible to believe but I never
    > >> >> > read 1000 Plateaus and only found out about its format today.
    > >> >> > Oh well. I also never knew that Pascal said "ineffable union"
    > >> >> > as the main idea of life either. But that's also not believable
    > >> >> > to hear me say that.
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> > Anyhow, I noticed that Guattari wanted to counter the "rhizome"
    > >> >> > composition or form to the "arborescent" i.e. tree-like I would
    > >> >> > guess.
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> > I've also used the image of the tree in my ideas for a while,
    > >> >> > such as "Political Aesthetics." I think the tree aspect of
    > >> >> > aesthetics is pretty good and important however so I'm curious
    > >> >> > why Guattari didn't like it.
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> > Moreover, Guattari's final Plateau is the "noosphere," which is
    > >> >> > Teilhard de Chardin, who P.B. Medawar is very against, and I
    > >> >> > cited Medawar in Political Aesthetics also.
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> > Maybe it's relevant that computers use a tree structure more so
    > >> >> > than a rhizome structure? Or, sometimes they do? Maybe history
    > >> >> > goes back and forth, favoring a tree sometimes or a rhizome at
    > >> >> > other times but neither one is evil per se.
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> >
    > >> >>> >>From: curt cloninger <curt@lab404.com>
    > >> >>> >>Reply-To: curt cloninger <curt@lab404.com>
    > >> >>> >>To: list@rhizome.org
    > >> >>> >>Subject: Re: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?
    > >> >>> >>Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 23:41:31 -0400
    > >> >>> >>
    > >> >>> >>I think one way to make a listserv dangerous is by using it to
    > >> >>> >>make actual art rather than as a para-art promotional
    > >> >>> >>platform. This is why posts by NN, kandinsky42, mez, Dirk
    > >> >>> >>Vekemans, Max Herman, manik, and others have been poet[h]ically
    > >> >>> >>appealing to me. They presume that something is happening on
    > >> >>> >>the list itself right now, rather than using the list to
    > >> >>> >>dialogue about something happening somewhere else.
    > >> >>> >>
    > >> >>> >>Here is a perspicacious essay on conceptual software art by
    > >> >>> >>Thomas Dreher, translated from German:
    > >> >>> >>http://iasl.uni-muenchen.de/links/NAKSe.html
    > >> >>> >>
    > >> >>> >>Here are the accompanying illustrations in pdf form:
    > >> >>> >>http://iasl.uni-muenchen.de/links/NAKSe.pdf (11 Mb)
    > >> >>> >>
    > >> >>> >>There amongst examples by Cage, George Brecht, Lewitt, and
    > >> >>> >>Debord is a piece I posted to RAW in 2005. Dreher's online
    > >> >>> >>essay links to my actual rhizome post, which now takes you to a
    > >> >>> >>page saying that the post is archived and you can no longer
    > >> >>> >>view it unless you pay to become a member.
    > >> >>> >>
    > >> >>> >>http://lyricwiki.org/The_White_Stripes:Little_Cream_Soda ,
    > >> >>> >>Curt
    > >> >>> >>
    > >> >>> >>+++++++
    > >> >>> >>
    > >> >>> >>pall wrote:
    > >> >>> >>
    > >> >>> >>That's a great analogy. I definitely think people should look
    > >> >>> >>into making Rhizome "dangerous" again.
    > >> >>> >>+
    > >> >>> >>-> post: list@rhizome.org
    > >> >>> >>-> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > >> >>> >>-> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    > >> >>> >>http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz -> give:
    > >> >>> >>http://rhizome.org/support +
    > >> >>> >>Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > >> >>> >>Membership Agreement available online at
    > >> >>> >>http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> > +
    > >> >> > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > >> >> > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > >> >> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    > >> >> > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz -> give:
    > >> >> > http://rhizome.org/support +
    > >> >> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > >> >> > Membership Agreement available online at
    > >> >> > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> > __________ NOD32 2501 (20070903) Information __________
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    > >> >> > http://www.eset.com <http://www.eset.com/>
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> >
    > >> >
    > >> > +
    > >> > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > >> > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > >> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    > >> > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz -> give:
    > >> > http://rhizome.org/support +
    > >> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > >> > Membership Agreement available online at
    > >> > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    > >> >
    > >> > __________ NOD32 2502 (20070904) Information __________
    > >> >
    > >> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    > >> > http://www.eset.com <http://www.eset.com/>
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> Martin John Callanan
    > >> http://greyisgood.eu
    > >>
    > >> Location of I
    > >> http://location.greyisgood.eu
    > >>
    > >>
    > >
    > >
    > > --
    > > Robert Spahr
    > > http://www.robertspahr.com
    > >
    > > "If we understand the mechanism and motives of the
    > > group mind, is it not possible to control and
    > > regiment the masses according to our will without
    > > their knowing about it?" -- Edward L. Bernays
    > >
    > > +
    > > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > > +
    > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    > >
    > > __________ NOD32 2511 (20070907) Information __________
    > >
    > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    > > http://www.eset.com
    > >
    > >
    > +
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
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    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >

    --
    *****************************
    Pall Thayer
    artist
    http://www.this.is/pallit
    *****************************
  • manik vauda marija manik nikola pilipovic | Sat Sep 8th 2007 7:35 a.m.
    Hi Pall,

    Your question about love is very difficult. I wake up last night and it was
    in my mind. I can't tell anything direct, but I have one story which, at
    least it seems to me, could be appropriate for this issue.

    My friend from high school drive with his permanent discontent was unhappy
    until day he find some book about Zen.He even learn English to read more
    books about Zen.But it wasn't enough. He decided to become Zen student in on
    Korean Zen monastery. That time wasn't so easy to stranger to be Zen
    student. There were strong stream against them in monastery. My friend told
    me how happy he was and he was afraid even with possibility to be thrown
    away from this place. He devoted meditate but often he was in position to be
    near Zen students who fight and this violence was potential dangerous for
    drastic penalty against those who make disorder. As witness my friend was in
    difficult position. What to do? To tell who was in fight and harm some
    colegue, or to imperil his own position with avoid to tell anything.

    One day he meet his mentor (teacher, or master.I'm not sure how's that on
    English) in garden. Master was alone and my friend told him about his
    problem.

    "There're students who fight, and students who meditate. You must make
    choice: which group you belong to."Said teacher.

    MANIK

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Pall Thayer" <pallthay@gmail.com>
    To: "manik" <manik@sbb.co.yu>
    Cc: <list@rhizome.org>
    Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 3:58 PM
    Subject: Re: Fw: RHIZOME_RAW: How deep is Rhizome stuff rascizm?

    > How deep is your love?
    > I really need to learn
    > Cause we're living in a world of fools
    > Breaking us down
    > When they all should let us be
    >
    > On 9/7/07, manik <manik@sbb.co.yu> wrote:
    >> What race is the finish line?
    >> MANIK
    >> ----- Original Message -----
    >> From: "Robert Spahr" <rob@robertspahr.com>
    >> To: "Martin John Callanan" <m@greyisgood.eu>
    >> Cc: "manik" <manik@sbb.co.yu>; "rhizome raw" <list@rhizome.org>
    >> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:00 PM
    >> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: How deep is Rhizome stuff rascizm?
    >>
    >>
    >> >
    >> > It's not who wins the race that counts, but the process of getting
    >> > across the finish line
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:04:36 +0100
    >> > Martin John Callanan <m@greyisgood.eu> wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> What race is MANIK?
    >> >> What race is Rhizome?
    >> >>
    >> >> On 6/9/07 15:59, "manik" <manik@sbb.co.yu> wrote:
    >> >>
    >> >> > In last "Rhizome Digest", thread- "Where is The Rhizome", MANIK was
    >> >> > represent with two texts under this title(and few others tight
    >> >> > conected with this thread but under different names). In 'Digest'
    >> >> > MANIK couldn't find his name. This is proof and sad fact that MANIK
    >> >> > was absolutely right considered Rhizome stuff racism.It's not the
    >> >> > first time that this stuff wipe MANIK's name from Digest!
    >> >> > Moreover this racism became institutional(economical) in Rhizome
    >> >> > vs. MANIK case because previously editor Kevin McGarry order text
    >> >> > from MANIK (about Chris Ashley.if you want you could see that essay
    >> >> > in his blog, or in Rhizome database, and by the way Chris use parts
    >> >> > of this essay in his lecture in New Museum-'About bloging',if we
    >> >> > remember correctly). Kevin own 100$ to MANIK for that essay and 40$
    >> >> > for two text in NAN.Instead 140$ Lauren Cornel pay to MANIK 40$ for
    >> >> > two texts published in NAN! And she generous "(for) give"25$ for
    >> >> > this year Rhizome membership to MANIK).So instead 140$ MANIK get
    >> >> > 40$ in check, and 25 as "gift"! Where's 75$ Rhizome own to MANIK?
    >> >> > Is that your stile-steal money from membership?
    >> >> > And after that wipe members name from documents? What should we
    >> >> > aspect next? Wipe MANIK's name from every database in Rhizome? Wipe
    >> >> > even his cloned object? How deep is Rhizome stuff rascizm?
    >> >> > Is that just Rhizome stuff opinion and politics or they having
    >> >> > support from membership? If members of Rhizome decided to throw
    >> >> > MANIK from Raw!?.O.k.!We could accept this kind of 'democracy'. If
    >> >> > not, we demand our name and texts on Digest.
    >> >> > And, of course 75$!
    >> >> > And resignation from Lauren Cornel and Marisa Olsen.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > MANIK
    >> >> >
    >> >> >
    >> >> >
    >> >> >
    >> >> > Monday, September 03, 2007 12:38 AM
    >> >> >
    >> >> > list@rhizome.org <list@rhizome.org>
    >> >> >
    >> >> > RHIZOME_RAW: WHERE IS THE RHIZOME?
    >> >> >
    >> >> > As always MANIK goes far ahead with ideas and observations.
    >> >> > Considered Rhizome front page: its look like many other
    >> >> > Organizations front page. And content's same as everywhere.Which
    >> >> > mean no trace of something creative. Art-in one word. But "first
    >> >> > blood" was Pall's lucid analysis considered Raw. We wonder how came
    >> >> > so many well educated people could observe Raw as separate
    >> >> > phenomenon with its own rules, like something which existed in
    >> >> > world far from any social and ethic /aesthetic
    >> >> > fermentation(?!?)Global situation in World is very different sense
    >> >> > day 'Berlin wall' fall ('89). Other words-this event mark day when
    >> >> > fascism officially win after 44 years! Of course leading role was
    >> >> > USA.Disintegrate of former USSR and bloody war in former Yugoslavia
    >> >> > were only few consequences of this catastrophy.USA felt so strong
    >> >> > to take obvious step against civilization and low norm with bombing
    >> >> > Serbia '99.NATO and filthy propaganda 'about Serbs ethnical
    >> >> > cleaning'(it's just opposite, about 200.000 Serbs was throw out
    >> >> > from Kosovo that time and they still live in Serbia like 'internal
    >> >> > displaced persons')was poor excuse for mainly USA interest in this
    >> >> > area (Kosovo)where America install largest military base on the
    >> >> > world,Bondsteel.
    >> >> > http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/camp-bondsteel.htm
    >> >> > Lowly? But, meanwhile Russia with president Putin find out what's
    >> >> > in The Bush.Surounded with republic from former
    >> >> > USSR(Georgija,Ukraine,Moldavia.etc)where USA influence became very
    >> >> > hard,Rusian decided to make 'bipolar' world. In few words: Amerika
    >> >> > can't make bullshit all over the world anymore. For example-USA
    >> >> > need Kosovo for strategic control over south Euro-Asia, but now
    >> >> > they are faced with serious threat.Russia have huge nuclear
    >> >> > potential, and also they're pissed on American sense they humiliate
    >> >> > them in '99 bombing Kosovo. President Gorbachov was blackmailed
    >> >> > idiot, Jelcin was drunk full, but now with Putin American have big
    >> >> > problem. War in Iraq goes bad for America-to many dead people. In
    >> >> > America slowly but surely grow unpleasant comprehension about
    >> >> > limitations and serious dangerous for they own safety. In few days
    >> >> > we could refresh our memories (9/11) and ask ourselves is there any
    >> >> > positive change in the world sense this date and this happening
    >> >> > (?)We doubt. New constellation in world strategic (count also on
    >> >> > China and India growing economic power) and possible Iran atomic
    >> >> > bomb.That look like bad dream for USA? And it is. In next few month
    >> >> > America must make a mowe.USA administration promise independent to
    >> >> > Shiptars from Kosovo but it won't be easy like
    >> >> > in '99.Why?Because,one tiny example which is main point. We think
    >> >> > (MANIK) to endure possible new NATO bombing more than 79 days as it
    >> >> > was last time. That mean we don't care for our life's anymore.
    >> >> > After 17 years of isolation, sanction, all kind of humiliation we
    >> >> > understand it's better to die than to live like slave of American
    >> >> > anti-human rule. That also mean we have nothing to loose and we
    >> >> > (following) Baudrillard's words could be very dangerous in any
    >> >> > sense of this word. America live in overrate Myth of value of life,
    >> >> > on the other side this "life "mean American life, not other people
    >> >> > life, which mean it's all pure rascism.Baudrillard said
    >> >> > (paraphrase):"Live in desacralised country(USA)mean that their
    >> >> > idea of life have no support in any other area of spiritual sphere.
    >> >> > Idea of sacrifice in Muslim religion show all vulnerable of
    >> >> > American tiny "ideology"." What are you going to doo with your
    >> >> > precious lifes? Intercontinental missile doesn't care for
    >> >> > distance.We believe it's time to live your unconscious and start to
    >> >> > prepare for new big war.Or to change your ideology.That'l be hard?
    >> >> > And that's why you should think about war. Now, when we became
    >> >> > conscience about this unhappy and ugly world, about injustice which
    >> >> > goes far over possibility to call mercy for people who commit them
    >> >> > (no mercy) about what we could talk on Raw. That's The Reason
    >> >> > Rhizome_Raw's empty, pathetic, and full of nonsense calls for
    >> >> > submissions. It could be some tiny chance to talk about dangerous
    >> >> > which came so fast and inexorability. First you must forget art and
    >> >> > ephemeral thing. In time of dangerous Muses are quiet. MANIK
    >> >> >
    >> >> >
    >> >> > __________ NOD32 2498 (20070902) Information __________
    >> >> >
    >> >> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    >> >> > http://www.eset.com
    >> >> >
    >> >> > Tuesday, September 04, 2007 2:11 PM
    >> >> >
    >> >> > list@rhizome.org <list@rhizome.org>
    >> >> >
    >> >> > Fw: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?
    >> >> >
    >> >> >
    >> >> > Hi Max,
    >> >> >
    >> >> > (IDEA OF)Tree in [post]structural way of imagination follow
    >> >> > spatial type of visualizing mind(thinking)which could be explained
    >> >> > as 'hyerarhical'.That mean tree couldn't be 'rhizomatic' because in
    >> >> > structure its repeat vertical, or "pyramid "type of
    >> >> > imagination(it's not wrong or right, it's just fact).Vertical
    >> >> > imagination mean, in short,base,or root(people) and administration,
    >> >> > leader(treetop).parallels in social structure is dictatorship and
    >> >> > vertical distribution of power(faschism,comunism or
    >> >> > neoliberal/corporative capitalism("West democracy").
    >> >> >
    >> >> > Other way supposes dispersion from one point (imagined root) and
    >> >> > endless number of germinate. This is rhizomatic way. You couldn't
    >> >> > direct when, how much, on which place and with how strong intensity
    >> >> > grown of some idea is going to erupt as brand new and equal (with
    >> >> > other) worst or better.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > That could be anarchy as last level of democracy ('Society of
    >> >> > 'Anonymous strangers') or 'retro distributions of power'-or,
    >> >> > horizontal distribution of power (prehistory tribe with their
    >> >> > distribution of social income and classification of social
    >> >> > influence).
    >> >> >
    >> >> > That's why we could see image of some swamp plant on (for example)
    >> >> > front page of Rhizome org.We doubt that any of recent Rhizome org.
    >> >> > stuff have knowledge about that. We wish we are wrong.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > MANIK hope that, at least, with his observation could help to
    >> >> > recognize problem of 'rhizomatic' on more complex way.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > MANIK
    >> >> >
    >> >> > PS:We are sure Curt don't mind we answer on your mail.At least all
    >> >> > of us try to understand what's going on here.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
    >> >> > From: "Max Herman" <maxnmherman@hotmail.com>
    >> >> > To: <list@rhizome.org>
    >> >> > Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 10:40 PM
    >> >> > Subject: Re: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?
    >> >> >
    >> >> >
    >> >> >> >
    >> >> >> > Hi Curt,
    >> >> >> >
    >> >> >> > I noticed in this text by Dreher I didn't think he talked about
    >> >> >> > Guattari. Did he?
    >> >> >> >
    >> >> >> > In any case, I looked up Guattari and found out some interesting
    >> >> >> > things.
    >> >> >> >
    >> >> >> > First off, his main book was called "1000 Plateaus" where each
    >> >> >> > section was dated to represent a time. This reminded me
    >> >> >> > frightfully of my own composition of "Genius 2000: a New
    >> >> >> > Network." You may find it impossible to believe but I never
    >> >> >> > read 1000 Plateaus and only found out about its format today.
    >> >> >> > Oh well. I also never knew that Pascal said "ineffable union"
    >> >> >> > as the main idea of life either. But that's also not believable
    >> >> >> > to hear me say that.
    >> >> >> >
    >> >> >> > Anyhow, I noticed that Guattari wanted to counter the "rhizome"
    >> >> >> > composition or form to the "arborescent" i.e. tree-like I would
    >> >> >> > guess.
    >> >> >> >
    >> >> >> > I've also used the image of the tree in my ideas for a while,
    >> >> >> > such as "Political Aesthetics." I think the tree aspect of
    >> >> >> > aesthetics is pretty good and important however so I'm curious
    >> >> >> > why Guattari didn't like it.
    >> >> >> >
    >> >> >> > Moreover, Guattari's final Plateau is the "noosphere," which is
    >> >> >> > Teilhard de Chardin, who P.B. Medawar is very against, and I
    >> >> >> > cited Medawar in Political Aesthetics also.
    >> >> >> >
    >> >> >> > Maybe it's relevant that computers use a tree structure more so
    >> >> >> > than a rhizome structure? Or, sometimes they do? Maybe history
    >> >> >> > goes back and forth, favoring a tree sometimes or a rhizome at
    >> >> >> > other times but neither one is evil per se.
    >> >> >> >
    >> >> >> >
    >> >> >> >
    >> >> >>> >>From: curt cloninger <curt@lab404.com>
    >> >> >>> >>Reply-To: curt cloninger <curt@lab404.com>
    >> >> >>> >>To: list@rhizome.org
    >> >> >>> >>Subject: Re: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?
    >> >> >>> >>Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 23:41:31 -0400
    >> >> >>> >>
    >> >> >>> >>I think one way to make a listserv dangerous is by using it to
    >> >> >>> >>make actual art rather than as a para-art promotional
    >> >> >>> >>platform. This is why posts by NN, kandinsky42, mez, Dirk
    >> >> >>> >>Vekemans, Max Herman, manik, and others have been poet[h]ically
    >> >> >>> >>appealing to me. They presume that something is happening on
    >> >> >>> >>the list itself right now, rather than using the list to
    >> >> >>> >>dialogue about something happening somewhere else.
    >> >> >>> >>
    >> >> >>> >>Here is a perspicacious essay on conceptual software art by
    >> >> >>> >>Thomas Dreher, translated from German:
    >> >> >>> >>http://iasl.uni-muenchen.de/links/NAKSe.html
    >> >> >>> >>
    >> >> >>> >>Here are the accompanying illustrations in pdf form:
    >> >> >>> >>http://iasl.uni-muenchen.de/links/NAKSe.pdf (11 Mb)
    >> >> >>> >>
    >> >> >>> >>There amongst examples by Cage, George Brecht, Lewitt, and
    >> >> >>> >>Debord is a piece I posted to RAW in 2005. Dreher's online
    >> >> >>> >>essay links to my actual rhizome post, which now takes you to a
    >> >> >>> >>page saying that the post is archived and you can no longer
    >> >> >>> >>view it unless you pay to become a member.
    >> >> >>> >>
    >> >> >>> >>http://lyricwiki.org/The_White_Stripes:Little_Cream_Soda ,
    >> >> >>> >>Curt
    >> >> >>> >>
    >> >> >>> >>+++++++
    >> >> >>> >>
    >> >> >>> >>pall wrote:
    >> >> >>> >>
    >> >> >>> >>That's a great analogy. I definitely think people should look
    >> >> >>> >>into making Rhizome "dangerous" again.
    >> >> >>> >>+
    >> >> >>> >>-> post: list@rhizome.org
    >> >> >>> >>-> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >> >> >>> >>-> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    >> >> >>> >>http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz -> give:
    >> >> >>> >>http://rhizome.org/support +
    >> >> >>> >>Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >> >> >>> >>Membership Agreement available online at
    >> >> >>> >>http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >> >> >> >
    >> >> >> >
    >> >> >> > +
    >> >> >> > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >> >> >> > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >> >> >> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    >> >> >> > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz -> give:
    >> >> >> > http://rhizome.org/support +
    >> >> >> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >> >> >> > Membership Agreement available online at
    >> >> >> > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >> >> >> >
    >> >> >> > __________ NOD32 2501 (20070903) Information __________
    >> >> >> >
    >> >> >> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    >> >> >> > http://www.eset.com <http://www.eset.com/>
    >> >> >> >
    >> >> >> >
    >> >> >
    >> >> > +
    >> >> > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >> >> > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >> >> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    >> >> > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz -> give:
    >> >> > http://rhizome.org/support +
    >> >> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >> >> > Membership Agreement available online at
    >> >> > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >> >> >
    >> >> > __________ NOD32 2502 (20070904) Information __________
    >> >> >
    >> >> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    >> >> > http://www.eset.com <http://www.eset.com/>
    >> >> >
    >> >> >
    >> >>
    >> >>
    >> >>
    >> >>
    >> >>
    >> >> Martin John Callanan
    >> >> http://greyisgood.eu
    >> >>
    >> >> Location of I
    >> >> http://location.greyisgood.eu
    >> >>
    >> >>
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > --
    >> > Robert Spahr
    >> > http://www.robertspahr.com
    >> >
    >> > "If we understand the mechanism and motives of the
    >> > group mind, is it not possible to control and
    >> > regiment the masses according to our will without
    >> > their knowing about it?" -- Edward L. Bernays
    >> >
    >> > +
    >> > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >> > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    >> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    >> > +
    >> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >> > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >> >
    >> > __________ NOD32 2511 (20070907) Information __________
    >> >
    >> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    >> > http://www.eset.com
    >> >
    >> >
    >> +
    >> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    >> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    >> +
    >> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >>
    >
    >
    > --
    > *****************************
    > Pall Thayer
    > artist
    > http://www.this.is/pallit
    > *****************************
    > +
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
    > __________ NOD32 2512 (20070907) Information __________
    >
    > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    > http://www.eset.com
    >
    >
  • Martin John Callanan | Sat Sep 8th 2007 11:32 a.m.
    Wax on, wax off.

    On 8/9/07 11:35, "manik" <manik@sbb.co.yu> wrote:

    > Hi Pall,
    >
    > Your question about love is very difficult. I wake up last night and it was
    > in my mind. I can't tell anything direct, but I have one story which, at
    > least it seems to me, could be appropriate for this issue.
    >
    > My friend from high school drive with his permanent discontent was unhappy
    > until day he find some book about Zen.He even learn English to read more
    > books about Zen.But it wasn't enough. He decided to become Zen student in on
    > Korean Zen monastery. That time wasn't so easy to stranger to be Zen
    > student. There were strong stream against them in monastery. My friend told
    > me how happy he was and he was afraid even with possibility to be thrown
    > away from this place. He devoted meditate but often he was in position to be
    > near Zen students who fight and this violence was potential dangerous for
    > drastic penalty against those who make disorder. As witness my friend was in
    > difficult position. What to do? To tell who was in fight and harm some
    > colegue, or to imperil his own position with avoid to tell anything.
    >
    > One day he meet his mentor (teacher, or master.I'm not sure how's that on
    > English) in garden. Master was alone and my friend told him about his
    > problem.
    >
    > "There're students who fight, and students who meditate. You must make
    > choice: which group you belong to."Said teacher.
    >
    > MANIK
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "Pall Thayer" <pallthay@gmail.com>
    > To: "manik" <manik@sbb.co.yu>
    > Cc: <list@rhizome.org>
    > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 3:58 PM
    > Subject: Re: Fw: RHIZOME_RAW: How deep is Rhizome stuff rascizm?
    >
    >
    >> How deep is your love?
    >> I really need to learn
    >> Cause we're living in a world of fools
    >> Breaking us down
    >> When they all should let us be
    >>
    >> On 9/7/07, manik <manik@sbb.co.yu> wrote:
    >>> What race is the finish line?
    >>> MANIK
    >>> ----- Original Message -----
    >>> From: "Robert Spahr" <rob@robertspahr.com>
    >>> To: "Martin John Callanan" <m@greyisgood.eu>
    >>> Cc: "manik" <manik@sbb.co.yu>; "rhizome raw" <list@rhizome.org>
    >>> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:00 PM
    >>> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: How deep is Rhizome stuff rascizm?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>
    >>>> It's not who wins the race that counts, but the process of getting
    >>>> across the finish line
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:04:36 +0100
    >>>> Martin John Callanan <m@greyisgood.eu> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> What race is MANIK?
    >>>>> What race is Rhizome?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> On 6/9/07 15:59, "manik" <manik@sbb.co.yu> wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> In last "Rhizome Digest", thread- "Where is The Rhizome", MANIK was
    >>>>>> represent with two texts under this title(and few others tight
    >>>>>> conected with this thread but under different names). In 'Digest'
    >>>>>> MANIK couldn't find his name. This is proof and sad fact that MANIK
    >>>>>> was absolutely right considered Rhizome stuff racism.It's not the
    >>>>>> first time that this stuff wipe MANIK's name from Digest!
    >>>>>> Moreover this racism became institutional(economical) in Rhizome
    >>>>>> vs. MANIK case because previously editor Kevin McGarry order text
    >>>>>> from MANIK (about Chris Ashley.if you want you could see that essay
    >>>>>> in his blog, or in Rhizome database, and by the way Chris use parts
    >>>>>> of this essay in his lecture in New Museum-'About bloging',if we
    >>>>>> remember correctly). Kevin own 100$ to MANIK for that essay and 40$
    >>>>>> for two text in NAN.Instead 140$ Lauren Cornel pay to MANIK 40$ for
    >>>>>> two texts published in NAN! And she generous "(for) give"25$ for
    >>>>>> this year Rhizome membership to MANIK).So instead 140$ MANIK get
    >>>>>> 40$ in check, and 25 as "gift"! Where's 75$ Rhizome own to MANIK?
    >>>>>> Is that your stile-steal money from membership?
    >>>>>> And after that wipe members name from documents? What should we
    >>>>>> aspect next? Wipe MANIK's name from every database in Rhizome? Wipe
    >>>>>> even his cloned object? How deep is Rhizome stuff rascizm?
    >>>>>> Is that just Rhizome stuff opinion and politics or they having
    >>>>>> support from membership? If members of Rhizome decided to throw
    >>>>>> MANIK from Raw!?.O.k.!We could accept this kind of 'democracy'. If
    >>>>>> not, we demand our name and texts on Digest.
    >>>>>> And, of course 75$!
    >>>>>> And resignation from Lauren Cornel and Marisa Olsen.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> MANIK
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Monday, September 03, 2007 12:38 AM
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> list@rhizome.org <list@rhizome.org>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> RHIZOME_RAW: WHERE IS THE RHIZOME?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> As always MANIK goes far ahead with ideas and observations.
    >>>>>> Considered Rhizome front page: its look like many other
    >>>>>> Organizations front page. And content's same as everywhere.Which
    >>>>>> mean no trace of something creative. Art-in one word. But "first
    >>>>>> blood" was Pall's lucid analysis considered Raw. We wonder how came
    >>>>>> so many well educated people could observe Raw as separate
    >>>>>> phenomenon with its own rules, like something which existed in
    >>>>>> world far from any social and ethic /aesthetic
    >>>>>> fermentation(?!?)Global situation in World is very different sense
    >>>>>> day 'Berlin wall' fall ('89). Other words-this event mark day when
    >>>>>> fascism officially win after 44 years! Of course leading role was
    >>>>>> USA.Disintegrate of former USSR and bloody war in former Yugoslavia
    >>>>>> were only few consequences of this catastrophy.USA felt so strong
    >>>>>> to take obvious step against civilization and low norm with bombing
    >>>>>> Serbia '99.NATO and filthy propaganda 'about Serbs ethnical
    >>>>>> cleaning'(it's just opposite, about 200.000 Serbs was throw out
    >>>>>> from Kosovo that time and they still live in Serbia like 'internal
    >>>>>> displaced persons')was poor excuse for mainly USA interest in this
    >>>>>> area (Kosovo)where America install largest military base on the
    >>>>>> world,Bondsteel.
    >>>>>> http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/camp-bondsteel.htm
    >>>>>> Lowly? But, meanwhile Russia with president Putin find out what's
    >>>>>> in The Bush.Surounded with republic from former
    >>>>>> USSR(Georgija,Ukraine,Moldavia.etc)where USA influence became very
    >>>>>> hard,Rusian decided to make 'bipolar' world. In few words: Amerika
    >>>>>> can't make bullshit all over the world anymore. For example-USA
    >>>>>> need Kosovo for strategic control over south Euro-Asia, but now
    >>>>>> they are faced with serious threat.Russia have huge nuclear
    >>>>>> potential, and also they're pissed on American sense they humiliate
    >>>>>> them in '99 bombing Kosovo. President Gorbachov was blackmailed
    >>>>>> idiot, Jelcin was drunk full, but now with Putin American have big
    >>>>>> problem. War in Iraq goes bad for America-to many dead people. In
    >>>>>> America slowly but surely grow unpleasant comprehension about
    >>>>>> limitations and serious dangerous for they own safety. In few days
    >>>>>> we could refresh our memories (9/11) and ask ourselves is there any
    >>>>>> positive change in the world sense this date and this happening
    >>>>>> (?)We doubt. New constellation in world strategic (count also on
    >>>>>> China and India growing economic power) and possible Iran atomic
    >>>>>> bomb.That look like bad dream for USA? And it is. In next few month
    >>>>>> America must make a mowe.USA administration promise independent to
    >>>>>> Shiptars from Kosovo but it won't be easy like
    >>>>>> in '99.Why?Because,one tiny example which is main point. We think
    >>>>>> (MANIK) to endure possible new NATO bombing more than 79 days as it
    >>>>>> was last time. That mean we don't care for our life's anymore.
    >>>>>> After 17 years of isolation, sanction, all kind of humiliation we
    >>>>>> understand it's better to die than to live like slave of American
    >>>>>> anti-human rule. That also mean we have nothing to loose and we
    >>>>>> (following) Baudrillard's words could be very dangerous in any
    >>>>>> sense of this word. America live in overrate Myth of value of life,
    >>>>>> on the other side this "life "mean American life, not other people
    >>>>>> life, which mean it's all pure rascism.Baudrillard said
    >>>>>> (paraphrase):"Live in desacralised country(USA)mean that their
    >>>>>> idea of life have no support in any other area of spiritual sphere.
    >>>>>> Idea of sacrifice in Muslim religion show all vulnerable of
    >>>>>> American tiny "ideology"." What are you going to doo with your
    >>>>>> precious lifes? Intercontinental missile doesn't care for
    >>>>>> distance.We believe it's time to live your unconscious and start to
    >>>>>> prepare for new big war.Or to change your ideology.That'l be hard?
    >>>>>> And that's why you should think about war. Now, when we became
    >>>>>> conscience about this unhappy and ugly world, about injustice which
    >>>>>> goes far over possibility to call mercy for people who commit them
    >>>>>> (no mercy) about what we could talk on Raw. That's The Reason
    >>>>>> Rhizome_Raw's empty, pathetic, and full of nonsense calls for
    >>>>>> submissions. It could be some tiny chance to talk about dangerous
    >>>>>> which came so fast and inexorability. First you must forget art and
    >>>>>> ephemeral thing. In time of dangerous Muses are quiet. MANIK
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> __________ NOD32 2498 (20070902) Information __________
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    >>>>>> http://www.eset.com
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Tuesday, September 04, 2007 2:11 PM
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> list@rhizome.org <list@rhizome.org>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Fw: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Hi Max,
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> (IDEA OF)Tree in [post]structural way of imagination follow
    >>>>>> spatial type of visualizing mind(thinking)which could be explained
    >>>>>> as 'hyerarhical'.That mean tree couldn't be 'rhizomatic' because in
    >>>>>> structure its repeat vertical, or "pyramid "type of
    >>>>>> imagination(it's not wrong or right, it's just fact).Vertical
    >>>>>> imagination mean, in short,base,or root(people) and administration,
    >>>>>> leader(treetop).parallels in social structure is dictatorship and
    >>>>>> vertical distribution of power(faschism,comunism or
    >>>>>> neoliberal/corporative capitalism("West democracy").
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Other way supposes dispersion from one point (imagined root) and
    >>>>>> endless number of germinate. This is rhizomatic way. You couldn't
    >>>>>> direct when, how much, on which place and with how strong intensity
    >>>>>> grown of some idea is going to erupt as brand new and equal (with
    >>>>>> other) worst or better.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> That could be anarchy as last level of democracy ('Society of
    >>>>>> 'Anonymous strangers') or 'retro distributions of power'-or,
    >>>>>> horizontal distribution of power (prehistory tribe with their
    >>>>>> distribution of social income and classification of social
    >>>>>> influence).
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> That's why we could see image of some swamp plant on (for example)
    >>>>>> front page of Rhizome org.We doubt that any of recent Rhizome org.
    >>>>>> stuff have knowledge about that. We wish we are wrong.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> MANIK hope that, at least, with his observation could help to
    >>>>>> recognize problem of 'rhizomatic' on more complex way.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> MANIK
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> PS:We are sure Curt don't mind we answer on your mail.At least all
    >>>>>> of us try to understand what's going on here.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
    >>>>>> From: "Max Herman" <maxnmherman@hotmail.com>
    >>>>>> To: <list@rhizome.org>
    >>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 10:40 PM
    >>>>>> Subject: Re: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Hi Curt,
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> I noticed in this text by Dreher I didn't think he talked about
    >>>>>>>> Guattari. Did he?
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> In any case, I looked up Guattari and found out some interesting
    >>>>>>>> things.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> First off, his main book was called "1000 Plateaus" where each
    >>>>>>>> section was dated to represent a time. This reminded me
    >>>>>>>> frightfully of my own composition of "Genius 2000: a New
    >>>>>>>> Network." You may find it impossible to believe but I never
    >>>>>>>> read 1000 Plateaus and only found out about its format today.
    >>>>>>>> Oh well. I also never knew that Pascal said "ineffable union"
    >>>>>>>> as the main idea of life either. But that's also not believable
    >>>>>>>> to hear me say that.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Anyhow, I noticed that Guattari wanted to counter the "rhizome"
    >>>>>>>> composition or form to the "arborescent" i.e. tree-like I would
    >>>>>>>> guess.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> I've also used the image of the tree in my ideas for a while,
    >>>>>>>> such as "Political Aesthetics." I think the tree aspect of
    >>>>>>>> aesthetics is pretty good and important however so I'm curious
    >>>>>>>> why Guattari didn't like it.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Moreover, Guattari's final Plateau is the "noosphere," which is
    >>>>>>>> Teilhard de Chardin, who P.B. Medawar is very against, and I
    >>>>>>>> cited Medawar in Political Aesthetics also.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Maybe it's relevant that computers use a tree structure more so
    >>>>>>>> than a rhizome structure? Or, sometimes they do? Maybe history
    >>>>>>>> goes back and forth, favoring a tree sometimes or a rhizome at
    >>>>>>>> other times but neither one is evil per se.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> From: curt cloninger <curt@lab404.com>
    >>>>>>>>>> Reply-To: curt cloninger <curt@lab404.com>
    >>>>>>>>>> To: list@rhizome.org
    >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?
    >>>>>>>>>> Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 23:41:31 -0400
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> I think one way to make a listserv dangerous is by using it to
    >>>>>>>>>> make actual art rather than as a para-art promotional
    >>>>>>>>>> platform. This is why posts by NN, kandinsky42, mez, Dirk
    >>>>>>>>>> Vekemans, Max Herman, manik, and others have been poet[h]ically
    >>>>>>>>>> appealing to me. They presume that something is happening on
    >>>>>>>>>> the list itself right now, rather than using the list to
    >>>>>>>>>> dialogue about something happening somewhere else.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> Here is a perspicacious essay on conceptual software art by
    >>>>>>>>>> Thomas Dreher, translated from German:
    >>>>>>>>>> http://iasl.uni-muenchen.de/links/NAKSe.html
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> Here are the accompanying illustrations in pdf form:
    >>>>>>>>>> http://iasl.uni-muenchen.de/links/NAKSe.pdf (11 Mb)
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> There amongst examples by Cage, George Brecht, Lewitt, and
    >>>>>>>>>> Debord is a piece I posted to RAW in 2005. Dreher's online
    >>>>>>>>>> essay links to my actual rhizome post, which now takes you to a
    >>>>>>>>>> page saying that the post is archived and you can no longer
    >>>>>>>>>> view it unless you pay to become a member.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> http://lyricwiki.org/The_White_Stripes:Little_Cream_Soda ,
    >>>>>>>>>> Curt
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> +++++++
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> pall wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> That's a great analogy. I definitely think people should look
    >>>>>>>>>> into making Rhizome "dangerous" again.
    >>>>>>>>>> +
    >>>>>>>>>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >>>>>>>>>> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >>>>>>>>>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    >>>>>>>>>> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz -> give:
    >>>>>>>>>> http://rhizome.org/support +
    >>>>>>>>>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >>>>>>>>>> Membership Agreement available online at
    >>>>>>>>>> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> +
    >>>>>>>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >>>>>>>> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >>>>>>>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    >>>>>>>> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz -> give:
    >>>>>>>> http://rhizome.org/support +
    >>>>>>>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >>>>>>>> Membership Agreement available online at
    >>>>>>>> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> __________ NOD32 2501 (20070903) Information __________
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    >>>>>>>> http://www.eset.com <http://www.eset.com/>
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> +
    >>>>>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >>>>>> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >>>>>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    >>>>>> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz -> give:
    >>>>>> http://rhizome.org/support +
    >>>>>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >>>>>> Membership Agreement available online at
    >>>>>> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> __________ NOD32 2502 (20070904) Information __________
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    >>>>>> http://www.eset.com <http://www.eset.com/>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Martin John Callanan
    >>>>> http://greyisgood.eu
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Location of I
    >>>>> http://location.greyisgood.eu
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> --
    >>>> Robert Spahr
    >>>> http://www.robertspahr.com
    >>>>
    >>>> "If we understand the mechanism and motives of the
    >>>> group mind, is it not possible to control and
    >>>> regiment the masses according to our will without
    >>>> their knowing about it?" -- Edward L. Bernays
    >>>>
    >>>> +
    >>>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >>>> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >>>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    >>>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    >>>> +
    >>>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >>>> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >>>>
    >>>> __________ NOD32 2511 (20070907) Information __________
    >>>>
    >>>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    >>>> http://www.eset.com
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>> +
    >>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >>> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
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    >>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    >>> +
    >>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >>> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >>>
    >>
    >>
    >> --
    >> *****************************
    >> Pall Thayer
    >> artist
    >> http://www.this.is/pallit
    >> *****************************
    >> +
    >> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
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    >> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    >> +
    >> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >>
    >> __________ NOD32 2512 (20070907) Information __________
    >>
    >> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    >> http://www.eset.com
    >>
    >>
    >
    > +
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    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
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    > +
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    >
  • Lee Wells | Sat Sep 8th 2007 11:59 p.m.
    Where's the beef?
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ug75diEyiA0

    > From: Martin John Callanan <m@greyisgood.eu>
    > Reply-To: Martin John Callanan <m@greyisgood.eu>
    > Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 15:32:17 +0100
    > To: manik <manik@sbb.co.yu>, rhizome raw <list@rhizome.org>
    > Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: How deep is Rhizome stuff rascizm?
    >
    > Wax on, wax off.
    >
    > On 8/9/07 11:35, "manik" <manik@sbb.co.yu> wrote:
    >
    >> Hi Pall,
    >>
    >> Your question about love is very difficult. I wake up last night and it was
    >> in my mind. I can't tell anything direct, but I have one story which, at
    >> least it seems to me, could be appropriate for this issue.
    >>
    >> My friend from high school drive with his permanent discontent was unhappy
    >> until day he find some book about Zen.He even learn English to read more
    >> books about Zen.But it wasn't enough. He decided to become Zen student in on
    >> Korean Zen monastery. That time wasn't so easy to stranger to be Zen
    >> student. There were strong stream against them in monastery. My friend told
    >> me how happy he was and he was afraid even with possibility to be thrown
    >> away from this place. He devoted meditate but often he was in position to be
    >> near Zen students who fight and this violence was potential dangerous for
    >> drastic penalty against those who make disorder. As witness my friend was in
    >> difficult position. What to do? To tell who was in fight and harm some
    >> colegue, or to imperil his own position with avoid to tell anything.
    >>
    >> One day he meet his mentor (teacher, or master.I'm not sure how's that on
    >> English) in garden. Master was alone and my friend told him about his
    >> problem.
    >>
    >> "There're students who fight, and students who meditate. You must make
    >> choice: which group you belong to."Said teacher.
    >>
    >> MANIK
    >>
    >> ----- Original Message -----
    >> From: "Pall Thayer" <pallthay@gmail.com>
    >> To: "manik" <manik@sbb.co.yu>
    >> Cc: <list@rhizome.org>
    >> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 3:58 PM
    >> Subject: Re: Fw: RHIZOME_RAW: How deep is Rhizome stuff rascizm?
    >>
    >>
    >>> How deep is your love?
    >>> I really need to learn
    >>> Cause we're living in a world of fools
    >>> Breaking us down
    >>> When they all should let us be
    >>>
    >>> On 9/7/07, manik <manik@sbb.co.yu> wrote:
    >>>> What race is the finish line?
    >>>> MANIK
    >>>> ----- Original Message -----
    >>>> From: "Robert Spahr" <rob@robertspahr.com>
    >>>> To: "Martin John Callanan" <m@greyisgood.eu>
    >>>> Cc: "manik" <manik@sbb.co.yu>; "rhizome raw" <list@rhizome.org>
    >>>> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:00 PM
    >>>> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: How deep is Rhizome stuff rascizm?
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> It's not who wins the race that counts, but the process of getting
    >>>>> across the finish line
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:04:36 +0100
    >>>>> Martin John Callanan <m@greyisgood.eu> wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> What race is MANIK?
    >>>>>> What race is Rhizome?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> On 6/9/07 15:59, "manik" <manik@sbb.co.yu> wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> In last "Rhizome Digest", thread- "Where is The Rhizome", MANIK was
    >>>>>>> represent with two texts under this title(and few others tight
    >>>>>>> conected with this thread but under different names). In 'Digest'
    >>>>>>> MANIK couldn't find his name. This is proof and sad fact that MANIK
    >>>>>>> was absolutely right considered Rhizome stuff racism.It's not the
    >>>>>>> first time that this stuff wipe MANIK's name from Digest!
    >>>>>>> Moreover this racism became institutional(economical) in Rhizome
    >>>>>>> vs. MANIK case because previously editor Kevin McGarry order text
    >>>>>>> from MANIK (about Chris Ashley.if you want you could see that essay
    >>>>>>> in his blog, or in Rhizome database, and by the way Chris use parts
    >>>>>>> of this essay in his lecture in New Museum-'About bloging',if we
    >>>>>>> remember correctly). Kevin own 100$ to MANIK for that essay and 40$
    >>>>>>> for two text in NAN.Instead 140$ Lauren Cornel pay to MANIK 40$ for
    >>>>>>> two texts published in NAN! And she generous "(for) give"25$ for
    >>>>>>> this year Rhizome membership to MANIK).So instead 140$ MANIK get
    >>>>>>> 40$ in check, and 25 as "gift"! Where's 75$ Rhizome own to MANIK?
    >>>>>>> Is that your stile-steal money from membership?
    >>>>>>> And after that wipe members name from documents? What should we
    >>>>>>> aspect next? Wipe MANIK's name from every database in Rhizome? Wipe
    >>>>>>> even his cloned object? How deep is Rhizome stuff rascizm?
    >>>>>>> Is that just Rhizome stuff opinion and politics or they having
    >>>>>>> support from membership? If members of Rhizome decided to throw
    >>>>>>> MANIK from Raw!?.O.k.!We could accept this kind of 'democracy'. If
    >>>>>>> not, we demand our name and texts on Digest.
    >>>>>>> And, of course 75$!
    >>>>>>> And resignation from Lauren Cornel and Marisa Olsen.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> MANIK
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Monday, September 03, 2007 12:38 AM
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> list@rhizome.org <list@rhizome.org>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> RHIZOME_RAW: WHERE IS THE RHIZOME?
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> As always MANIK goes far ahead with ideas and observations.
    >>>>>>> Considered Rhizome front page: its look like many other
    >>>>>>> Organizations front page. And content's same as everywhere.Which
    >>>>>>> mean no trace of something creative. Art-in one word. But "first
    >>>>>>> blood" was Pall's lucid analysis considered Raw. We wonder how came
    >>>>>>> so many well educated people could observe Raw as separate
    >>>>>>> phenomenon with its own rules, like something which existed in
    >>>>>>> world far from any social and ethic /aesthetic
    >>>>>>> fermentation(?!?)Global situation in World is very different sense
    >>>>>>> day 'Berlin wall' fall ('89). Other words-this event mark day when
    >>>>>>> fascism officially win after 44 years! Of course leading role was
    >>>>>>> USA.Disintegrate of former USSR and bloody war in former Yugoslavia
    >>>>>>> were only few consequences of this catastrophy.USA felt so strong
    >>>>>>> to take obvious step against civilization and low norm with bombing
    >>>>>>> Serbia '99.NATO and filthy propaganda 'about Serbs ethnical
    >>>>>>> cleaning'(it's just opposite, about 200.000 Serbs was throw out
    >>>>>>> from Kosovo that time and they still live in Serbia like 'internal
    >>>>>>> displaced persons')was poor excuse for mainly USA interest in this
    >>>>>>> area (Kosovo)where America install largest military base on the
    >>>>>>> world,Bondsteel.
    >>>>>>> http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/camp-bondsteel.htm
    >>>>>>> Lowly? But, meanwhile Russia with president Putin find out what's
    >>>>>>> in The Bush.Surounded with republic from former
    >>>>>>> USSR(Georgija,Ukraine,Moldavia.etc)where USA influence became very
    >>>>>>> hard,Rusian decided to make 'bipolar' world. In few words: Amerika
    >>>>>>> can't make bullshit all over the world anymore. For example-USA
    >>>>>>> need Kosovo for strategic control over south Euro-Asia, but now
    >>>>>>> they are faced with serious threat.Russia have huge nuclear
    >>>>>>> potential, and also they're pissed on American sense they humiliate
    >>>>>>> them in '99 bombing Kosovo. President Gorbachov was blackmailed
    >>>>>>> idiot, Jelcin was drunk full, but now with Putin American have big
    >>>>>>> problem. War in Iraq goes bad for America-to many dead people. In
    >>>>>>> America slowly but surely grow unpleasant comprehension about
    >>>>>>> limitations and serious dangerous for they own safety. In few days
    >>>>>>> we could refresh our memories (9/11) and ask ourselves is there any
    >>>>>>> positive change in the world sense this date and this happening
    >>>>>>> (?)We doubt. New constellation in world strategic (count also on
    >>>>>>> China and India growing economic power) and possible Iran atomic
    >>>>>>> bomb.That look like bad dream for USA? And it is. In next few month
    >>>>>>> America must make a mowe.USA administration promise independent to
    >>>>>>> Shiptars from Kosovo but it won't be easy like
    >>>>>>> in '99.Why?Because,one tiny example which is main point. We think
    >>>>>>> (MANIK) to endure possible new NATO bombing more than 79 days as it
    >>>>>>> was last time. That mean we don't care for our life's anymore.
    >>>>>>> After 17 years of isolation, sanction, all kind of humiliation we
    >>>>>>> understand it's better to die than to live like slave of American
    >>>>>>> anti-human rule. That also mean we have nothing to loose and we
    >>>>>>> (following) Baudrillard's words could be very dangerous in any
    >>>>>>> sense of this word. America live in overrate Myth of value of life,
    >>>>>>> on the other side this "life "mean American life, not other people
    >>>>>>> life, which mean it's all pure rascism.Baudrillard said
    >>>>>>> (paraphrase):"Live in desacralised country(USA)mean that their
    >>>>>>> idea of life have no support in any other area of spiritual sphere.
    >>>>>>> Idea of sacrifice in Muslim religion show all vulnerable of
    >>>>>>> American tiny "ideology"." What are you going to doo with your
    >>>>>>> precious lifes? Intercontinental missile doesn't care for
    >>>>>>> distance.We believe it's time to live your unconscious and start to
    >>>>>>> prepare for new big war.Or to change your ideology.That'l be hard?
    >>>>>>> And that's why you should think about war. Now, when we became
    >>>>>>> conscience about this unhappy and ugly world, about injustice which
    >>>>>>> goes far over possibility to call mercy for people who commit them
    >>>>>>> (no mercy) about what we could talk on Raw. That's The Reason
    >>>>>>> Rhizome_Raw's empty, pathetic, and full of nonsense calls for
    >>>>>>> submissions. It could be some tiny chance to talk about dangerous
    >>>>>>> which came so fast and inexorability. First you must forget art and
    >>>>>>> ephemeral thing. In time of dangerous Muses are quiet. MANIK
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> __________ NOD32 2498 (20070902) Information __________
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    >>>>>>> http://www.eset.com
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Tuesday, September 04, 2007 2:11 PM
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> list@rhizome.org <list@rhizome.org>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Fw: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Hi Max,
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> (IDEA OF)Tree in [post]structural way of imagination follow
    >>>>>>> spatial type of visualizing mind(thinking)which could be explained
    >>>>>>> as 'hyerarhical'.That mean tree couldn't be 'rhizomatic' because in
    >>>>>>> structure its repeat vertical, or "pyramid "type of
    >>>>>>> imagination(it's not wrong or right, it's just fact).Vertical
    >>>>>>> imagination mean, in short,base,or root(people) and administration,
    >>>>>>> leader(treetop).parallels in social structure is dictatorship and
    >>>>>>> vertical distribution of power(faschism,comunism or
    >>>>>>> neoliberal/corporative capitalism("West democracy").
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Other way supposes dispersion from one point (imagined root) and
    >>>>>>> endless number of germinate. This is rhizomatic way. You couldn't
    >>>>>>> direct when, how much, on which place and with how strong intensity
    >>>>>>> grown of some idea is going to erupt as brand new and equal (with
    >>>>>>> other) worst or better.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> That could be anarchy as last level of democracy ('Society of
    >>>>>>> 'Anonymous strangers') or 'retro distributions of power'-or,
    >>>>>>> horizontal distribution of power (prehistory tribe with their
    >>>>>>> distribution of social income and classification of social
    >>>>>>> influence).
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> That's why we could see image of some swamp plant on (for example)
    >>>>>>> front page of Rhizome org.We doubt that any of recent Rhizome org.
    >>>>>>> stuff have knowledge about that. We wish we are wrong.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> MANIK hope that, at least, with his observation could help to
    >>>>>>> recognize problem of 'rhizomatic' on more complex way.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> MANIK
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> PS:We are sure Curt don't mind we answer on your mail.At least all
    >>>>>>> of us try to understand what's going on here.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
    >>>>>>> From: "Max Herman" <maxnmherman@hotmail.com>
    >>>>>>> To: <list@rhizome.org>
    >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 10:40 PM
    >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Hi Curt,
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> I noticed in this text by Dreher I didn't think he talked about
    >>>>>>>>> Guattari. Did he?
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> In any case, I looked up Guattari and found out some interesting
    >>>>>>>>> things.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> First off, his main book was called "1000 Plateaus" where each
    >>>>>>>>> section was dated to represent a time. This reminded me
    >>>>>>>>> frightfully of my own composition of "Genius 2000: a New
    >>>>>>>>> Network." You may find it impossible to believe but I never
    >>>>>>>>> read 1000 Plateaus and only found out about its format today.
    >>>>>>>>> Oh well. I also never knew that Pascal said "ineffable union"
    >>>>>>>>> as the main idea of life either. But that's also not believable
    >>>>>>>>> to hear me say that.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Anyhow, I noticed that Guattari wanted to counter the "rhizome"
    >>>>>>>>> composition or form to the "arborescent" i.e. tree-like I would
    >>>>>>>>> guess.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> I've also used the image of the tree in my ideas for a while,
    >>>>>>>>> such as "Political Aesthetics." I think the tree aspect of
    >>>>>>>>> aesthetics is pretty good and important however so I'm curious
    >>>>>>>>> why Guattari didn't like it.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Moreover, Guattari's final Plateau is the "noosphere," which is
    >>>>>>>>> Teilhard de Chardin, who P.B. Medawar is very against, and I
    >>>>>>>>> cited Medawar in Political Aesthetics also.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Maybe it's relevant that computers use a tree structure more so
    >>>>>>>>> than a rhizome structure? Or, sometimes they do? Maybe history
    >>>>>>>>> goes back and forth, favoring a tree sometimes or a rhizome at
    >>>>>>>>> other times but neither one is evil per se.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> From: curt cloninger <curt@lab404.com>
    >>>>>>>>>>> Reply-To: curt cloninger <curt@lab404.com>
    >>>>>>>>>>> To: list@rhizome.org
    >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Where is the Rhizome?
    >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 23:41:31 -0400
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> I think one way to make a listserv dangerous is by using it to
    >>>>>>>>>>> make actual art rather than as a para-art promotional
    >>>>>>>>>>> platform. This is why posts by NN, kandinsky42, mez, Dirk
    >>>>>>>>>>> Vekemans, Max Herman, manik, and others have been poet[h]ically
    >>>>>>>>>>> appealing to me. They presume that something is happening on
    >>>>>>>>>>> the list itself right now, rather than using the list to
    >>>>>>>>>>> dialogue about something happening somewhere else.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> Here is a perspicacious essay on conceptual software art by
    >>>>>>>>>>> Thomas Dreher, translated from German:
    >>>>>>>>>>> http://iasl.uni-muenchen.de/links/NAKSe.html
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> Here are the accompanying illustrations in pdf form:
    >>>>>>>>>>> http://iasl.uni-muenchen.de/links/NAKSe.pdf (11 Mb)
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> There amongst examples by Cage, George Brecht, Lewitt, and
    >>>>>>>>>>> Debord is a piece I posted to RAW in 2005. Dreher's online
    >>>>>>>>>>> essay links to my actual rhizome post, which now takes you to a
    >>>>>>>>>>> page saying that the post is archived and you can no longer
    >>>>>>>>>>> view it unless you pay to become a member.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> http://lyricwiki.org/The_White_Stripes:Little_Cream_Soda ,
    >>>>>>>>>>> Curt
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> +++++++
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> pall wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> That's a great analogy. I definitely think people should look
    >>>>>>>>>>> into making Rhizome "dangerous" again.
    >>>>>>>>>>> +
    >>>>>>>>>>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >>>>>>>>>>> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >>>>>>>>>>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    >>>>>>>>>>> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz -> give:
    >>>>>>>>>>> http://rhizome.org/support +
    >>>>>>>>>>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >>>>>>>>>>> Membership Agreement available online at
    >>>>>>>>>>> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> +
    >>>>>>>>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >>>>>>>>> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    >>>>>>>>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
    >>>>>>>>> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz -> give:
    >>>>>>>>> http://rhizome.org/support +
    >>>>>>>>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >>>>>>>>> Membership Agreement available online at
    >>>>>>>>> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> __________ NOD32 2501 (20070903) Information __________
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    >>>>>>>>> http://www.eset.com <http://www.eset.com/>
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> +
    >>>>>>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
    >>>>>>> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
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    >>>>>>> http://rhizome.org/support +
    >>>>>>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >>>>>>> Membership Agreement available online at
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    >>>>>>> __________ NOD32 2502 (20070904) Information __________
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    >>>>>>> http://www.eset.com <http://www.eset.com/>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Martin John Callanan
    >>>>>> http://greyisgood.eu
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Location of I
    >>>>>> http://location.greyisgood.eu
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> --
    >>>>> Robert Spahr
    >>>>> http://www.robertspahr.com
    >>>>>
    >>>>> "If we understand the mechanism and motives of the
    >>>>> group mind, is it not possible to control and
    >>>>> regiment the masses according to our will without
    >>>>> their knowing about it?" -- Edward L. Bernays
    >>>>>
    >>>>> +
    >>>>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
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    >>>>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >>>>> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >>>>>
    >>>>> __________ NOD32 2511 (20070907) Information __________
    >>>>>
    >>>>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    >>>>> http://www.eset.com
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>> +
    >>>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
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    >>>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
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    >>>
    >>>
    >>> --
    >>> *****************************
    >>> Pall Thayer
    >>> artist
    >>> http://www.this.is/pallit
    >>> *****************************
    >>> +
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    >>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    >>> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >>>
    >>> __________ NOD32 2512 (20070907) Information __________
    >>>
    >>> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
    >>> http://www.eset.com
    >>>
    >>>
    >>
    >> +
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    >> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
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    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
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