Something constructive-->was F**K B**H

Posted by JM Haefner | Thu Nov 4th 2004 1:53 p.m.

Along recent lines, I'm not giving up, and think I've hatched an idea and perhaps you can help. I'm thinking of making documents with FACTS/information on things the republicans might be interested in. For example...info on why there was separation of church and state. Lets talk about all the pagan symbols on our dollar bills, and whatever else to be put on a Web site. People can download and send the fact docs to their unconnected neighbors.

I'm also thinking though, of creating signs that can be downloaded and printed out, or what ever. Like the Get Out the Vote competition here: http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm/getoutthevote

However, since I'm feeling rather perturbed, mine might be more caustic. For example:

Your Parents Voted Democrat
Because
They Cared About Your Future

SHAME ON YOU!

\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_

Jean
  • ben syverson | Thu Nov 4th 2004 2:20 p.m.
    On Nov 4, 2004, at 2:53 PM, Jean wrote:

    > I'm thinking of making documents with FACTS/information on things the
    > republicans might be interested in.

    I'm sorry, not to be rude, but were you UNDER A ROCK for the past four
    years? The voters in our nation clearly do not care about facts or
    information. As Oregon's governor put it, "what we once thought - that
    people would vote in their economic self-interest - is not true."

    75\% of Bush supporters "believe Iraq either worked closely with Al
    Qaeda or was directly involved in the attacks of 9/11." Bush has lied
    non-stop for four years with no consequences, and anyone who has ANY
    interest in the facts or real information is far, far ahead of the
    average voter, regardless of who they support.

    You fundamentally misunderstand this country, just as the Democratic
    party does, and just as I used to until Tuesday night. Americans are
    voting based on their FAITH, not on the information. We are a
    hate-filled, murderous, destructive religious state, much like the
    Taliban. Except the oppression we face is not as obvious; it's rather
    sophisticated.

    See:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/04/opinion/04wills.html

    - ben
  • JM Haefner | Thu Nov 4th 2004 2:44 p.m.
    SO, we all kill ourselves, wait for a comet...or come up with lies -as they did?

    You’re not suggesting any solution -just bitching about it. I’d rather try a bunch of ideas -hit or miss than wallow in the "Sky is Falling" attitude I keep hearing. Oh, the sky may be falling indeed, but I prefer to think of a way to stay in the sunshine.
  • Gregory Little | Thu Nov 4th 2004 2:56 p.m.
    Jean:

    I have to agree with Ben, they don't really care about facts, that is clear.
    They will not go to a web site that does not support their ideology, they do
    not want to learn any facts, it is, YES, about FAITH, about getting into
    HEAVEN... this world is of no consequence, GWB is chosen by GOD, he shares
    their values, constructs their path, and is an avatar. It is all ephemera.
    Also not to be rude, but this is important. We must stop assuming that they
    are like us...we are interested in facts, reasoning, learning being
    challenged, educating. They are not interested, sorry. Wrong strategy. It
    just makes things worse. That is what they want you to do. Keep yourself
    busy gathering facts after the fact, while they set the agenda. fact
    finding is following, exactly where they want us.
    However, I am not sure what the right strategy is, but they are playing a
    game of constructed virtual realities, and the reality of the virtual is NOT
    factual. This could not be more post modern, they are beating us at our own
    game. While we win small debates in the UN, in congress, in presidential
    campaigns, with our self-perceived, superior intelligence, condescending
    need to educate, and evolved skills of reason and memory, liberal desires
    for equity for all, we lose the election, and, as in 2000 we lose even if we
    win.....what do we need to wake up here?
    No, this is a hard one, but for many of the artists on this list, I think
    they are in our territory, using our tools, building simulated virtual
    narratives, constructing avatars; but theirs are of salvation and
    righteousness based in populist fundamentalist rhetoric. Maybe they are
    plummeting toward the resurrection, who knows, but we have missed the boat.
    We thought they were somewhere else, we underestimated their skills, their
    intelligence, their perseverance. I agree with Ben, the oppression is very
    sophisticated.....we need a new strategy.

    Greg

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: owner-list@rhizome.org [mailto:owner-list@rhizome.org]On Behalf Of
    > bensyverson
    > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 4:21 PM
    > To: list@rhizome.org
    > Subject: Re: RHIZOME\_RAW: Something constructive-->was F**K B**H
    >
    >
    >
    > On Nov 4, 2004, at 2:53 PM, Jean wrote:
    >
    > > I'm thinking of making documents with FACTS/information on things the
    > > republicans might be interested in.
    >
    > I'm sorry, not to be rude, but were you UNDER A ROCK for the past four
    > years? The voters in our nation clearly do not care about facts or
    > information. As Oregon's governor put it, "what we once thought - that
    > people would vote in their economic self-interest - is not true."
    >
    > 75\% of Bush supporters "believe Iraq either worked closely with Al
    > Qaeda or was directly involved in the attacks of 9/11." Bush has lied
    > non-stop for four years with no consequences, and anyone who has ANY
    > interest in the facts or real information is far, far ahead of the
    > average voter, regardless of who they support.
    >
    > You fundamentally misunderstand this country, just as the Democratic
    > party does, and just as I used to until Tuesday night. Americans are
    > voting based on their FAITH, not on the information. We are a
    > hate-filled, murderous, destructive religious state, much like the
    > Taliban. Except the oppression we face is not as obvious; it's rather
    > sophisticated.
    >
    > See:
    > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/04/opinion/04wills.html
    >
    > - ben
    >
    > +
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
  • JM Haefner | Thu Nov 4th 2004 3:12 p.m.
    Yes, I have aften thought they should be taken in the rapture...and leave the rest of us alone.

    But dang, in reality that's 144,000 of Jewish faith....
    -oops facts again

    Jean
  • MTAA | Thu Nov 4th 2004 3:26 p.m.
    I think Jean had a good idea...

    To abandon facts and reason? What! How! Who! Where! I just can't get my
    head around it... if that's what we need to do to talk to these people
    then secession of the reality-based states is the only answer.

    That's not it. The majority of voters weren't these 'moral' voters.
    They were about 20\%. We need to figure out how to tap into the others
    because, you're right, these 'moral' voters seem to not give a shit
    about facts and reason.

    On Nov 4, 2004, at 4:57 PM, Gregory Little wrote:

    > Jean:
    >
    > I have to agree with Ben, they don't really care about facts, that is
    > clear.
    > They will not go to a web site that does not support their ideology,
    > they do
    > not want to learn any facts, it is, YES, about FAITH, about getting
    > into
    > HEAVEN... this world is of no consequence, GWB is chosen by GOD, he
    > shares
    > their values, constructs their path, and is an avatar. It is all
    > ephemera.
    > Also not to be rude, but this is important. We must stop assuming
    > that they
    > are like us...we are interested in facts, reasoning, learning being
    > challenged, educating. They are not interested, sorry. Wrong
    > strategy. It
    > just makes things worse. That is what they want you to do. Keep
    > yourself
    > busy gathering facts after the fact, while they set the agenda. fact
    > finding is following, exactly where they want us.
    > However, I am not sure what the right strategy is, but they are
    > playing a
    > game of constructed virtual realities, and the reality of the virtual
    > is NOT
    > factual. This could not be more post modern, they are beating us at
    > our own
    > game. While we win small debates in the UN, in congress, in
    > presidential
    > campaigns, with our self-perceived, superior intelligence,
    > condescending
    > need to educate, and evolved skills of reason and memory, liberal
    > desires
    > for equity for all, we lose the election, and, as in 2000 we lose even
    > if we
    > win.....what do we need to wake up here?
    > No, this is a hard one, but for many of the artists on this list, I
    > think
    > they are in our territory, using our tools, building simulated virtual
    > narratives, constructing avatars; but theirs are of salvation and
    > righteousness based in populist fundamentalist rhetoric. Maybe they
    > are
    > plummeting toward the resurrection, who knows, but we have missed the
    > boat.
    > We thought they were somewhere else, we underestimated their skills,
    > their
    > intelligence, their perseverance. I agree with Ben, the oppression is
    > very
    > sophisticated.....we need a new strategy.
    >
    > Greg
    >
    >
    >
    >> -----Original Message-----
    >> From: owner-list@rhizome.org [mailto:owner-list@rhizome.org]On Behalf
    >> Of
    >> bensyverson
    >> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 4:21 PM
    >> To: list@rhizome.org
    >> Subject: Re: RHIZOME\_RAW: Something constructive-->was F**K B**H
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> On Nov 4, 2004, at 2:53 PM, Jean wrote:
    >>
    >>> I'm thinking of making documents with FACTS/information on things the
    >>> republicans might be interested in.
    >>
    >> I'm sorry, not to be rude, but were you UNDER A ROCK for the past four
    >> years? The voters in our nation clearly do not care about facts or
    >> information. As Oregon's governor put it, "what we once thought - that
    >> people would vote in their economic self-interest - is not true."
    >>
    >> 75\% of Bush supporters "believe Iraq either worked closely with Al
    >> Qaeda or was directly involved in the attacks of 9/11." Bush has lied
    >> non-stop for four years with no consequences, and anyone who has ANY
    >> interest in the facts or real information is far, far ahead of the
    >> average voter, regardless of who they support.
    >>
    >> You fundamentally misunderstand this country, just as the Democratic
    >> party does, and just as I used to until Tuesday night. Americans are
    >> voting based on their FAITH, not on the information. We are a
    >> hate-filled, murderous, destructive religious state, much like the
    >> Taliban. Except the oppression we face is not as obvious; it's rather
    >> sophisticated.
    >>
    >> See:
    >> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/04/opinion/04wills.html
    >>
    >

    ===
    <twhid>http://www.mteww.com</twhid>
    ===
  • Gregory Little | Thu Nov 4th 2004 5:19 p.m.
    I don't know, I apologize if I sound TOO negative, but admittedly I am
    feeling a bit desperate here.
    I don't believe that there is no solution, far from it...........but I
    firmly believe that we have to take a long hard look at ourselves here. We
    lost. We lost Again, and on the senate/house/state level, we lost again and
    again and again. The gay marriage thing passed in Ohio like by 65\% or
    something really resounding. That is VERY revealing of what we are dealing
    with here, this is indicative to me of the "moral imperative" at work.

    Do you really think there was a shortage of facts out there? Do you really
    think more will help? Information is just that, information...this is about
    beliefs, and if belief was fact-based, it would be a very different world.

    I believe that it is blind, arrogant, and ignorant on our part to not ask
    ourselves what we are doing wrong here. I believe it is pointless to keep
    trying the same old strategies, and I think we need a new plan....Maybe not
    abandoning the facts; but they are clearly winning through the realm of
    illusion. Admittedly I don't have the answer, but I have been trying really
    hard to understand why this is happening, how they see us, and what we are
    doing "wrong", and what they are doing "right". I think we have to start
    now figuring out what this strategy might be, and I DO believe that
    something will emerge.

    Maybe someone really did hack the voting machines, that would explain a lot.

    The majority of voters weren't these 'moral' voters.
    > They were about 20\%

    I don't know about these numbers, I heard numbers that the percentage of
    self-ascribed born agains in the US is 35-40\%. I DO believe that GWB
    somehow reaches into the moral core of lots and lots of people, and I
    believe that is his success. They are my family, I know them, I can see it
    in their eyes...they have been waiting for him for a long time.. Also, they
    (these republicans) sort of hate us, the bashing of the coastal, educated,
    artsy liberals is utter hypocrisy on GWs part, but big on GW's agenda and
    lots and lots of people love it. It works, they see it as revenge. They
    hate us. They appear to worship stupidity, it is true, but they are
    actually very clever. We have to be more clever somehow, than Cheney, Rove,
    the lot of them.

    This is not an altruistic game.

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: owner-list@rhizome.org [mailto:owner-list@rhizome.org]On Behalf Of
    > t.whid
    > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 5:23 PM
    > To: rhizome
    > Subject: Re: RHIZOME\_RAW: Something constructive-->was F**K B**H
    >
    >
    > I think Jean had a good idea...
    >
    > To abandon facts and reason? What! How! Who! Where! I just can't get my
    > head around it... if that's what we need to do to talk to these people
    > then secession of the reality-based states is the only answer.
    >
    > That's not it. The majority of voters weren't these 'moral' voters.
    > They were about 20\%. We need to figure out how to tap into the others
    > because, you're right, these 'moral' voters seem to not give a shit
    > about facts and reason.
    >
    > On Nov 4, 2004, at 4:57 PM, Gregory Little wrote:
    >
    > > Jean:
    > >
    > > I have to agree with Ben, they don't really care about facts, that is
    > > clear.
    > > They will not go to a web site that does not support their ideology,
    > > they do
    > > not want to learn any facts, it is, YES, about FAITH, about getting
    > > into
    > > HEAVEN... this world is of no consequence, GWB is chosen by GOD, he
    > > shares
    > > their values, constructs their path, and is an avatar. It is all
    > > ephemera.
    > > Also not to be rude, but this is important. We must stop assuming
    > > that they
    > > are like us...we are interested in facts, reasoning, learning being
    > > challenged, educating. They are not interested, sorry. Wrong
    > > strategy. It
    > > just makes things worse. That is what they want you to do. Keep
    > > yourself
    > > busy gathering facts after the fact, while they set the agenda. fact
    > > finding is following, exactly where they want us.
    > > However, I am not sure what the right strategy is, but they are
    > > playing a
    > > game of constructed virtual realities, and the reality of the virtual
    > > is NOT
    > > factual. This could not be more post modern, they are beating us at
    > > our own
    > > game. While we win small debates in the UN, in congress, in
    > > presidential
    > > campaigns, with our self-perceived, superior intelligence,
    > > condescending
    > > need to educate, and evolved skills of reason and memory, liberal
    > > desires
    > > for equity for all, we lose the election, and, as in 2000 we lose even
    > > if we
    > > win.....what do we need to wake up here?
    > > No, this is a hard one, but for many of the artists on this list, I
    > > think
    > > they are in our territory, using our tools, building simulated virtual
    > > narratives, constructing avatars; but theirs are of salvation and
    > > righteousness based in populist fundamentalist rhetoric. Maybe they
    > > are
    > > plummeting toward the resurrection, who knows, but we have missed the
    > > boat.
    > > We thought they were somewhere else, we underestimated their skills,
    > > their
    > > intelligence, their perseverance. I agree with Ben, the oppression is
    > > very
    > > sophisticated.....we need a new strategy.
    > >
    > > Greg
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >> -----Original Message-----
    > >> From: owner-list@rhizome.org [mailto:owner-list@rhizome.org]On Behalf
    > >> Of
    > >> bensyverson
    > >> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 4:21 PM
    > >> To: list@rhizome.org
    > >> Subject: Re: RHIZOME\_RAW: Something constructive-->was F**K B**H
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> On Nov 4, 2004, at 2:53 PM, Jean wrote:
    > >>
    > >>> I'm thinking of making documents with FACTS/information on things the
    > >>> republicans might be interested in.
    > >>
    > >> I'm sorry, not to be rude, but were you UNDER A ROCK for the past four
    > >> years? The voters in our nation clearly do not care about facts or
    > >> information. As Oregon's governor put it, "what we once thought - that
    > >> people would vote in their economic self-interest - is not true."
    > >>
    > >> 75\% of Bush supporters "believe Iraq either worked closely with Al
    > >> Qaeda or was directly involved in the attacks of 9/11." Bush has lied
    > >> non-stop for four years with no consequences, and anyone who has ANY
    > >> interest in the facts or real information is far, far ahead of the
    > >> average voter, regardless of who they support.
    > >>
    > >> You fundamentally misunderstand this country, just as the Democratic
    > >> party does, and just as I used to until Tuesday night. Americans are
    > >> voting based on their FAITH, not on the information. We are a
    > >> hate-filled, murderous, destructive religious state, much like the
    > >> Taliban. Except the oppression we face is not as obvious; it's rather
    > >> sophisticated.
    > >>
    > >> See:
    > >> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/04/opinion/04wills.html
    > >>
    > >
    >
    > ===
    > <twhid>http://www.mteww.com</twhid>
    > ===
    >
    >
    >
    > +
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: owner-list@rhizome.org [mailto:owner-list@rhizome.org]On Behalf Of
    > t.whid
    > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 5:23 PM
    > To: rhizome
    > Subject: Re: RHIZOME\_RAW: Something constructive-->was F**K B**H
    >
    >
    > I think Jean had a good idea...
    >
    > To abandon facts and reason? What! How! Who! Where! I just can't get my
    > head around it... if that's what we need to do to talk to these people
    > then secession of the reality-based states is the only answer.
    >
    > That's not it. The majority of voters weren't these 'moral' voters.
    > They were about 20\%. We need to figure out how to tap into the others
    > because, you're right, these 'moral' voters seem to not give a shit
    > about facts and reason.
    >
    > On Nov 4, 2004, at 4:57 PM, Gregory Little wrote:
    >
    > > Jean:
    > >
    > > I have to agree with Ben, they don't really care about facts, that is
    > > clear.
    > > They will not go to a web site that does not support their ideology,
    > > they do
    > > not want to learn any facts, it is, YES, about FAITH, about getting
    > > into
    > > HEAVEN... this world is of no consequence, GWB is chosen by GOD, he
    > > shares
    > > their values, constructs their path, and is an avatar. It is all
    > > ephemera.
    > > Also not to be rude, but this is important. We must stop assuming
    > > that they
    > > are like us...we are interested in facts, reasoning, learning being
    > > challenged, educating. They are not interested, sorry. Wrong
    > > strategy. It
    > > just makes things worse. That is what they want you to do. Keep
    > > yourself
    > > busy gathering facts after the fact, while they set the agenda. fact
    > > finding is following, exactly where they want us.
    > > However, I am not sure what the right strategy is, but they are
    > > playing a
    > > game of constructed virtual realities, and the reality of the virtual
    > > is NOT
    > > factual. This could not be more post modern, they are beating us at
    > > our own
    > > game. While we win small debates in the UN, in congress, in
    > > presidential
    > > campaigns, with our self-perceived, superior intelligence,
    > > condescending
    > > need to educate, and evolved skills of reason and memory, liberal
    > > desires
    > > for equity for all, we lose the election, and, as in 2000 we lose even
    > > if we
    > > win.....what do we need to wake up here?
    > > No, this is a hard one, but for many of the artists on this list, I
    > > think
    > > they are in our territory, using our tools, building simulated virtual
    > > narratives, constructing avatars; but theirs are of salvation and
    > > righteousness based in populist fundamentalist rhetoric. Maybe they
    > > are
    > > plummeting toward the resurrection, who knows, but we have missed the
    > > boat.
    > > We thought they were somewhere else, we underestimated their skills,
    > > their
    > > intelligence, their perseverance. I agree with Ben, the oppression is
    > > very
    > > sophisticated.....we need a new strategy.
    > >
    > > Greg
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >> -----Original Message-----
    > >> From: owner-list@rhizome.org [mailto:owner-list@rhizome.org]On Behalf
    > >> Of
    > >> bensyverson
    > >> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 4:21 PM
    > >> To: list@rhizome.org
    > >> Subject: Re: RHIZOME\_RAW: Something constructive-->was F**K B**H
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> On Nov 4, 2004, at 2:53 PM, Jean wrote:
    > >>
    > >>> I'm thinking of making documents with FACTS/information on things the
    > >>> republicans might be interested in.
    > >>
    > >> I'm sorry, not to be rude, but were you UNDER A ROCK for the past four
    > >> years? The voters in our nation clearly do not care about facts or
    > >> information. As Oregon's governor put it, "what we once thought - that
    > >> people would vote in their economic self-interest - is not true."
    > >>
    > >> 75\% of Bush supporters "believe Iraq either worked closely with Al
    > >> Qaeda or was directly involved in the attacks of 9/11." Bush has lied
    > >> non-stop for four years with no consequences, and anyone who has ANY
    > >> interest in the facts or real information is far, far ahead of the
    > >> average voter, regardless of who they support.
    > >>
    > >> You fundamentally misunderstand this country, just as the Democratic
    > >> party does, and just as I used to until Tuesday night. Americans are
    > >> voting based on their FAITH, not on the information. We are a
    > >> hate-filled, murderous, destructive religious state, much like the
    > >> Taliban. Except the oppression we face is not as obvious; it's rather
    > >> sophisticated.
    > >>
    > >> See:
    > >> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/04/opinion/04wills.html
    > >>
    > >
    >
    > ===
    > <twhid>http://www.mteww.com</twhid>
    > ===
    >
    >
    >
    > +
    > -> post: list@rhizome.org
    > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
    > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
    > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
    > -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
    > +
    > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
    > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
    >
Your Reply